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Quoted: Sitting here looking at the P220 I just bought, I have shot the shit out of this thing, bought from a friend. But this pistol is damn near a work of art that will reliably put .45 acp rounds into the same hole at 20 yards if you are good enough. Hard to believe its the same company that engineered a pistol that you can't safely carry in a fucking holster  Sig Sauer, Inc ? Swiss Industrial Company & SIG Sauer GmbH |
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These threads/videos are actually starting to make Sig look good… Sad, but very true. It did not take long for multiple folks to show 100 percent definitive proof of the drop issue. How many years have some claimed there is an issue, and do we have the 100 percent definitive proof, yet? The incessant emotional knee jerk reactions to support a position that has not found 100 percent validity is getting old, and is making it more difficult to take folks/things seriously. Hopefully, we can find a resolution to this soon. Either someone can make it happen definitively, at which point it can be addressed, or we find it has already been addressed, or never truly existed - which is certainly doubtful for being true. There is definitely smoke, but is there pollution continuously impeding finding if the smoke is real with a fire, or was the fire put out, or was the fire made up.. Presentation and attitude are lacking, similar to Sig, is the point… |
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Quoted: These threads/videos are actually starting to make Sig look good Sad, but very true. It did not take long for multiple folks to show 100 percent definitive proof of the drop issue. How many years have some claimed there is an issue, and do we have the 100 percent definitive proof, yet? The incessant emotional knee jerk reactions to support a position that has not found 100 percent validity is getting old, and is making it more difficult to take folks/things seriously. Hopefully, we can find a resolution to this soon. Either someone can make it happen definitively, at which point it can be addressed, or we find it has already been addresses, or never truly existed - which is certainly doubtful for being true. There is definitely smoke, but is there pollution continuously impeding finding if the smoke is real with a fire, or was the fire put out, or was the fire made up.. Presentation and attitude are lacking, similar to Sig, is the point This is having an effect on the public perception of SIG quality. It will cost them 10s of millions one way or another. |
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Quoted: Wow so your sight picture even changes on these pieces of shit as you pull the trigger!!!! LOL I never noticed the slide moving down, that's crazy shit. Thats what I was thinking watching the slide move up and down. Even if there was no problem with holster pops, I wouldn't own one for that reason alone. |
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Quoted: Makes me wonder "if" an aluminum or steel frame would help? Reduce fcu flex? Would a safety prevent the small movement of a worn return spring. There was a guy on the 320 subreddit that made a few billet 80% FCU's. After he used a jig to finish them and assemble one of them, there was no play at all like when you wiggle the slide on the stamped FCU equipped frame. He also extended the front part of the rail. Forget now how much he added. Inquired about an 80% from him, but he said he only makes a few at a time on one of his CNC's and the cost was $400 each. They did look good though. Pretty sure he said he made them from sort of stainless but I forget which it was now. It's been about 6-8 months since he posted that up on the 320 sub |
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Quoted: Sig Sauer, Inc ? Swiss Industrial Company & SIG Sauer GmbH Quoted: Quoted: Sitting here looking at the P220 I just bought, I have shot the shit out of this thing, bought from a friend. But this pistol is damn near a work of art that will reliably put .45 acp rounds into the same hole at 20 yards if you are good enough. Hard to believe its the same company that engineered a pistol that you can't safely carry in a fucking holster Sig Sauer, Inc ? Swiss Industrial Company & SIG Sauer GmbH They are all subsidiaries of L&O GmbH holdings. |
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Quoted: If there is ANY doubt... there is NO doubt. You're coping, and I get it, but bro you're nuts if you rely on a P320 for anything except an unloaded paperweight. Far too many better options exist in this world to willingly continue down this path.  What do I have to do to get the approval of the Glock Death Cult? Say 87 Hail Gastons, full of Perfection? Repeat the Perfection Creed: And did Sig doth cheated and hired Generals And lo performed beta testing upon their consumers And Glock shall stand and show its leg wound and holes in its palms, then abashed shall Cohen stand and feel how awful Perfection is. I literally have pistols of all major manufacturers and could throw out my P320s and have it matter naught. |
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Quoted: You can literally watch the back of the slide drop down as he presses into the trigger pull, as 320s do. You're letting your bias override your integrity. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you have to pull the trigger to show how the gun fires without pulling the trigger you may have a problem with your experiment. Yeah but that’s not what happened. Pre-travel was taken up. That’s all. No firearm, none, should be able to discharge by taking up pre-travel and wiggling the slide. No, that was more than pre-travel. It's clear by watching it and he even says so in the video. Touching the wall isn’t pulling the trigger. Did you even watch the video? "I'm pulling the trigger halfway through the firing sequence to simulate out of spec parts." Yeah, I sure did. Go to 14:25 in the video. The P320 is hammered dogshit. ETA: He is only taking up the pre-travel and just touching the wall. The screw is basically just a set screw. He may not be following exacting protocols but no doubts can be had concerning his example is discharging **under conditions whereas no properly designed/functioning firearm should be. ETAx2: ** You can literally watch the back of the slide drop down as he presses into the trigger pull, as 320s do. You're letting your bias override your integrity. So he basically takes up pre-travel and is touching (engages) the wall. Got it. And, with no further manipulation of the trigger due to it basically being pinned (or set), disturbing the slide slightly allows a non-user actuated discharge. Someone provides video evidence of their firearm experiencing an undesired discharge under certain conditions and can be repeated (reliably). My opinion is based on such evidence. Bias would indicate a “belief” based on rumors or conjecture, not evidence. If you have invested yourself in the P320 for whatever reasons, my condolences. |
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Quoted: How many Glocks killed people while sitting in a holster? Zero. How many Sigs killed people while sitting in a holster? Three and over a hundred wounded. Here's a recent one Holstered Pistol Discharges… Negligent or Accident? but the video isn't working now for whatever reason? The guy was just doing his thing and then bent over (IIRC) and bang. A through-and-through to his groin but luckily he survived. Point is, this isn't a 1 time isolated incident for Glock either. Was his shirt stuck in the holster? Who knows but same thing can be said for most of these P320 UD reports, some of which were proven to be user error. Even the ones with videos... some of them sure do look damning but none of them actually proves anything. Even the FBI and their fancy lab couldn't make a P320 UD and not just any P320 but specifically one that already had a documented unexplained UD). My take is, most if not all of these UD's are actually AD's but the internet is doing internet things and jumping to conclusions and blowing shit way out of proportion. If the internet (as we know it today) existed in the late 80's when the Glock first came out, I wouldn't be surprised if Glock didn't even exist today. Either way, if the potential for an uncommanded discharge truly concerns you then I suggest you forget about all striker fired guns and stick with DA/SA gun which are much safer than any striker fired gun. Sig happens to make one of the best, the P226 |
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Quoted: Legally are they unaffiliated? Exeter exists to serve the US market but are they actually a different company? SIGARMS (now Sig Sauer, Inc) was completely separate subsidiary started by SIG in USA to handle importation; growth into manufacturing and engineering of their own models was independent from GmbH (now defunct). |
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Quoted: Sig issues not withstanding, I can’t get past the part where he keeps chirping about the gun going off with out manipulating the trigger, while he is manipulating the trigger the entire time. What he showed is that any amount of lint, dirt, sand, or donut dust that gets in the gun can cause the tolerances to be off enough for it to fire. Anything that keeps the trigger from completely resetting to its’ full forward position leads to this outcome. Yes, the trigger is being “manipulated” but not really. That condition could be caused by any of the factors above. My guess is that he has the perfect replication of what has been happening with these guns all over the country. Sig is as good as finished after this. |
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Quoted: I don't know how many have actually died but plenty of people have been shot with holstered Glocks. Here's a recent one Holstered Pistol Discharges… Negligent or Accident? but the video isn't working now for whatever reason? The guy was just doing his thing and then bent over (IIRC) and bang. A through-and-through to his groin but luckily he survived. Point is, this isn't a 1 time isolated incident for Glock either. Was his shirt stuck in the holster? Who knows but same thing can be said for most of these P320 UD reports, some of which were proven to be user error. Even the ones with videos... some of them sure do look damning but none of them actually proves anything. Even the FBI and their fancy lab couldn't make a P320 UD and not just any P320 but specifically one that already had a documented unexplained UD). My take is, most if not all of these UD's are actually AD's but the internet is doing internet things and jumping to conclusions and blowing shit way out of proportion. If the internet (as we know it today) existed in the late 80's when the Glock first came out, I wouldn't be surprised if Glock didn't even exist today. Either way, if the potential for an uncommanded discharge truly concerns you then I suggest you forget about all striker fired guns and stick with DA/SA gun which are much safer than any striker fired gun. Sig happens to make one of the best, the P226 Quoted: Quoted: How many Glocks killed people while sitting in a holster? Zero. How many Sigs killed people while sitting in a holster? Three and over a hundred wounded. Here's a recent one Holstered Pistol Discharges… Negligent or Accident? but the video isn't working now for whatever reason? The guy was just doing his thing and then bent over (IIRC) and bang. A through-and-through to his groin but luckily he survived. Point is, this isn't a 1 time isolated incident for Glock either. Was his shirt stuck in the holster? Who knows but same thing can be said for most of these P320 UD reports, some of which were proven to be user error. Even the ones with videos... some of them sure do look damning but none of them actually proves anything. Even the FBI and their fancy lab couldn't make a P320 UD and not just any P320 but specifically one that already had a documented unexplained UD). My take is, most if not all of these UD's are actually AD's but the internet is doing internet things and jumping to conclusions and blowing shit way out of proportion. If the internet (as we know it today) existed in the late 80's when the Glock first came out, I wouldn't be surprised if Glock didn't even exist today. Either way, if the potential for an uncommanded discharge truly concerns you then I suggest you forget about all striker fired guns and stick with DA/SA gun which are much safer than any striker fired gun. Sig happens to make one of the best, the P226 I think the problem is there is likely some of what SIG claims going on. When you have a pistol that has no trigger safety, no manual safety, no grip safety, and is a fully cocked striker for an improved trigger feel you’ve got the perfect recipe for a foreign object to fire the pistol in the holster. I don’t think we should overlook that. In some of these instances, there probably is a foreign object pulling the trigger because SIG developed a pistol with no external safety redundancy at all. So their way of explaining away all these UDs is that the pistol isn’t defective… it’s actually just that poorly designed from a philosophical standpoint of no safety margin. That is pretty sad. A pistol spits out little holster-sized pieces of brass as a normal part of its operation. Being this extremely sensitive to something getting into the holster is not good. That makes it trickier to determine which pistols may be experiencing a mechanical flaw, because the design has so many going off it’s hard to sift through all the data points. |
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I don't own a 320 but it's been on my list. Just waiting now for the buy one get 3 free sales. I agree that the trigger is PARTIALLY pulled in his test. Yes the trigger is engaged. Where I have an issue with is the gun shouldn't discharge with pressure added to the slide while the trigger remains stationary. |
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I believe the P320 can go off on its own from jostling. But this test is retarded. The striker safety disengages once the trigger reaches the wall. Pulling further starts to disengage the sear. Once your sear engagement equals your slide vertical play it doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to see what is going to happen. |
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Quoted: I don't own a 320 but it's been on my list. Just waiting now for the buy one get 3 free sales. I agree that the trigger is PARTIALLY pulled in his test. Yes the trigger is engaged. Where I have an issue with is the gun shouldn't discharge with pressure added to the slide while the trigger remains stationary. This still doesn't look like a "UNCONTROVERTABLE PROOF WE FOUND THE ISSUE SIG IS LYING RHEEEEEE! SIG HAS COOTIES!" situation. |
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Quoted: I get that it shouldn't fire with the trigger pulled halfway back and the slide wiggled, but how does this explain all of the "it was just sitting in its holster and went off" claims? I mean, he's literally pulling the trigger. It doesn't. All that is doing is defeating the striker safety as designed and showing the sear is barely holding the striker. Something I mentioned in another post. The trigger pull negates the striker safety, as designed, before you hit the wall of the sear. It has to or the sear could drop on trigger pull and the striker be stopped by the safety. Glocks do the same thing. The sloppy frame to slide fit is really in question here not the striker safety. I still think the sloppy fit and striker safety that functions with watch springs are combining and leading to the issue. Shitty build quality and a poor striker safety design adds up to a death trap. |
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Quoted:“Muh 1mm!!” “Muh weak return spring!!” These idiotic versions of “facts” are most likely helping SIG and the 320 more than “exposing” fatal flaws because of their sheer stupidity. Anyone pulling a trigger ANY distance is someone trying to gain attention and manipulate a so-called test rather than exposing a safety issue. The weak return spring crap is just confirmation bias until it can proven to be a real issue rather than another excuse. I have 0 SIGs, just Glocks, and have no use for a 320. I do think there is a safety issue with some of them but the above “test” is stupid. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/137/IMG_2158_jpeg-3594578.JPG |
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Quoted: Thats what I was thinking watching the slide move up and down. Even if there was no problem with holster pops, I wouldn't own one for that reason alone. When I had one, sighting a red dot in was a bitch for this reason. I also had first shot flyers every mag because using the slide release to chamber a round did not result in the same lockup as cycling. |
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Quoted: It doesn't. All that is doing is defeating the striker safety as designed and showing the sear is barely holding the striker. Something I mentioned in another post. The trigger pull negates the striker safety, as designed, before you hit the wall of the sear. It has to or the sear could drop on trigger pull and the striker be stopped by the safety. Glocks do the same thing. The sloppy frame to slide fit is really in question here not the striker safety. I still think the sloppy fit and striker safety that functions with watch springs are combining and leading to the issue. Shitty build quality and a poor striker safety design adds up to a death trap. Quoted: Quoted: I get that it shouldn't fire with the trigger pulled halfway back and the slide wiggled, but how does this explain all of the "it was just sitting in its holster and went off" claims? I mean, he's literally pulling the trigger. It doesn't. All that is doing is defeating the striker safety as designed and showing the sear is barely holding the striker. Something I mentioned in another post. The trigger pull negates the striker safety, as designed, before you hit the wall of the sear. It has to or the sear could drop on trigger pull and the striker be stopped by the safety. Glocks do the same thing. The sloppy frame to slide fit is really in question here not the striker safety. I still think the sloppy fit and striker safety that functions with watch springs are combining and leading to the issue. Shitty build quality and a poor striker safety design adds up to a death trap. The trigger guard width is almost the same as the trigger itself. It's very possible most holsters are rubbing the trigger on the side and setting it back 1MM. The rest is just moving around with the gun evidently. Ha! |
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Quoted: The trigger guard width is almost the same as the trigger itself. It's very possible most holsters are rubbing the trigger on the side and setting it back 1MM. The rest is just moving around with the gun evidently. Ha! Could be. My holsters all lock on my 300 and don’t touch the trigger guards on my guns. I can’t check that. Anyone have an issued Safariland they can inspect? |
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Quoted: The trigger guard width is almost the same as the trigger itself. It's very possible most holsters are rubbing the trigger on the side and setting it back 1MM. The rest is just moving around with the gun evidently. Ha! That's very well possible. 1MM and you are set for failure. What a shit design. Single action striker fired handgun no one knows about. |
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Mine will do that with no trigger input. Had the "voluntary upgrade" done. Its at the shop on consignment for the last few months, ill go pick it up and post a video as best i can. I dont have any primed shells or anything like that. I want my money back Sig. Hopefully this lowers the price on 22x series... that shits my jam... |
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There’s definitely merit to what he accomplished in the video, but my question is how is the trigger being depressed back to the wall in a holster? Is it a matter of the trigger being pulled back to the wall prior to holstering, which results in something happening to the trigger mechanism irrespective of whether or not the trigger is being maintained against the wall? Basically, you shoot a few rounds, go to shoot again where you run the trigger to the wall but don’t actually fire it, let the trigger back out, holster and then bang? I’d be curious to see him run the trigger a mm into the wall, let it back out all the way, and then wiggle the slide around. |
I'm not sure partially.pulling the trigger and manually manipulating the gun in particular and specific ways counts as "un commanded"  Has this guy demonstrated that some P320s can be made to fire when they technically should not? Seems like it. Has he demonstrated that a p320 discharged "un commanded"? lol no. |
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Quoted: What he showed is that any amount of lint, dirt, sand, or donut dust that gets in the gun can cause the tolerances to be off enough for it to fire. Anything that keeps the trigger from completely resetting to its’ full forward position leads to this outcome. Yes, the trigger is being “manipulated” but not really. That condition could be caused by any of the factors above. My guess is that he has the perfect replication of what has been happening with these guns all over the country. Sig is as good as finished after this. This |
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Quoted: I'm coping because I said that I have my doubts about guntoober testing protocol and results? I'm coping because in recent days I've spoken with two local arfcommers about replacing my Sig Xten? What do I have to do to get the approval of the Glock Death Cult? Say 87 Hail Gastons, full of Perfection? Repeat the Perfection Creed: And did Sig doth cheated and hired Generals And lo performed beta testing upon their consumers And Glock shall stand and show its leg wound and holes in its palms, then abashed shall Cohen stand and feel how awful Perfection is. I literally have pistols of all major manufacturers and could throw out my P320s and have it matter naught. IDK, I'm a 1911 guy.  But here's what you do: Buy a customized SA Platypus because it's a 1911 that takes G17 mags. 
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Quoted: I think the problem is there is likely some of what SIG claims going on. When you have a pistol that has no trigger safety, no manual safety, no grip safety, and is a fully cocked striker for an improved trigger feel you’ve got the perfect recipe for a foreign object to fire the pistol in the holster. I don’t think we should overlook that. In some of these instances, there probably is a foreign object pulling the trigger because SIG developed a pistol with no external safety redundancy at all. So their way of explaining away all these UDs is that the pistol isn’t defective… it’s actually just that poorly designed from a philosophical standpoint of no safety margin. That is pretty sad. A pistol spits out little holster-sized pieces of brass as a normal part of its operation. Being this extremely sensitive to something getting into the holster is not good. That makes it trickier to determine which pistols may be experiencing a mechanical flaw, because the design has so many going off it’s hard to sift through all the data points. This is the key that everyone is ignoring in their fervor to attack Sig for supposed mechanical issues that somehow no one can replicated. If someone came out with a 1911 that deleted all the external safeties, everyone would call it an accident waiting to happen. But if you have a light striker with no external safeties, it's considered perfectly okay for some reason. I am 99% sure that there is nothing mechanically wrong with the P320. But I also think it (and all the other super light trigger striker guns) are extremely questionable for anything but target shooting at the range. I don't think we necessarily need to go full DA/SA or DAO for safety, but Glock's long striker trigger with a trigger safety is probably the bare minimum for a reasonably safe carry gun. |
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Quoted: I'll get down with that - it shouldn't be able to fire until fully pulled. This still doesn't look like a "UNCONTROVERTABLE PROOF WE FOUND THE ISSUE SIG IS LYING RHEEEEEE! SIG HAS COOTIES!" situation. Quoted: Quoted: I don't own a 320 but it's been on my list. Just waiting now for the buy one get 3 free sales. I agree that the trigger is PARTIALLY pulled in his test. Yes the trigger is engaged. Where I have an issue with is the gun shouldn't discharge with pressure added to the slide while the trigger remains stationary. This still doesn't look like a "UNCONTROVERTABLE PROOF WE FOUND THE ISSUE SIG IS LYING RHEEEEEE! SIG HAS COOTIES!" situation. 100% Agree |
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Quoted: Mine will do that with no trigger input. Had the "voluntary upgrade" done. Its at the shop on consignment for the last few months, ill go pick it up and post a video as best i can. I dont have any primed shells or anything like that. I want my money back Sig. Hopefully this lowers the price on 22x series... that shits my jam... Yours will fire with no trigger input? Yikes! |
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Quoted: I'm not sure partially.pulling the trigger and manually manipulating the gun in particular and specific ways counts as "un commanded" Has this guy demonstrated that some P320s can be made to fire when they technically should not? Seems like it. Has he demonstrated that a p320 discharged "un commanded"? lol no. That is exactly what it is. The pistol shouldn't discharge from fucking with the slide. That is the whole and entire purpose of the trigger. Ffs, it fires without full trigger engagement. |
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Quoted: I'm not sure partially.pulling the trigger and manually manipulating the gun in particular and specific ways counts as "un commanded" Has this guy demonstrated that some P320s can be made to fire when they technically should not? Seems like it. Has he demonstrated that a p320 discharged "un commanded"? lol no. That trigger was not pulled DK. If you stack a trigger and press on the slide it should not fire. He is showing even minor problems defeat the guns safeties. The P320 is nothing more than a single action striker fired gun. It should not be marketed as a duty gun. Wear, lint, grease, dirt or bad springs set you up for failure. Its a bad design. |