Your examples refer to crimes of violence and do not apply to this case.

Robbery is not burglary. Robbery is a crime against a person. Example: a kid snatching a purse from a little old lady. Aggravated Robbery is the kid using force during the commission of the robbery.

Burglary is (rough Fl definition from memory) entering or remaining in a structure or conveyance with the intent to commit a crime.

In this case, structure includes the "curtilage" (sp?) where the jetski was kept.

The crime was (attempted) Grand Theft.

FYI & NO flame intended. Just want us reading off of the same sheet of music.

P3[pyro][^][heavy]

The only problem is the HUGE amount of legal mumbo-jumbo that you are going to deal with for the next 3-5 years.  Grand juries, subpeonas, depositions, lawyers, fees, trial dates, ad nauseum.

You kill them, it had better be worth ALOT of your time and money.  A jetski is not worth it imho.

TheRedGoat

I'm a cop, not a lawyer/judge, but doesn't leaving the relative safety of your home and intentionally shooting people before they can flee pretty much cover "malice aforethought"?

P3[pyro][^][heavy]

Jesus, everyone's crucifying this guy for doing something FAR more moderate than I would have done, and I don't even live in a Shall-Issue state!

Leave the man alone. He did good, and then some. He showed forethought and planning in a situation many of us wouldn't have even considered. Who else (except veterans) would have had the forethough to FIRE INTO AN UNOCCUPIED AREA when he felt he was threatened, to scare the intruders away?

As far as the "if"'s go...for all he knew, they were armed and had he said "hello" WITHOUT a weapon, they may have decided they couldn't afford to leave a living witness. *shrug* end of story, as far as I'm concerned...

Once again, good job, NG. Glad it all turned out good.

Redgoat... The crime that was commited was Burglary...not Robbery, under the statute you posted, burglary was not one of the enumerated felonys and therefore the home owner was not justified in using deadly force...

No. At the least, you're trespassing, and at the worst, burglary. Either way, the BG is going to jail.



Hey, man, it's the law. I didn't make it up. I, like you have to follow it. I also have to enforce it. -Comes with the job.



If that's the law, fine. But we aren't talking about the Great Republic of Texas - Florida's a bit different - and not necessarily for the better.

P3[pyro][^][heavy]

Darned gun was loud huh?    Doesn't surprise me one bit, it's the reason behind why I want to get a set of electronic ear muffs so that I won't rob myself of the very important sense of hearing.   My fear of throbbing ears is very high when it comes to firing any sort of handgun indoors, much less firing a short barreled AR15.    And here you were outdoors taking the shots.   Having a set of electronic earmuffs right next to any home defense firearm is likely a very wise decision.


In the event of having to fire at an intruder, rob them of their hearing but don't rob yourself of your hearing.




As for firing the shots, depending on the area I likely would have fired into the ground if standing in the right area before firing into the air due to the surrounding population.

NG, since you are around the Eglin Reservation, and have a C-130 gunner living by you, I take it you live in FT. Walton, or close to hurlbert field.
I used to live in Niceville from 83-87, back when my dad was stationed at Eglin.
I was down there back in '99 (actually at P-cola fixing a Harrier) and came on through to check on my dad's house. I can't believe how built up it is there now!!!

So the Okaloosa County Sherrif's are pretty reasonable, huh?
Wish that I could get a job down there.

Evil_Ed...nobody is crucifying... we are just having a discussion about the legal ramifications of ones actions...it turned out well and I for one am happy about it.  

When I hear a noise that might be a burglar, I glance over at my 12 gauge as well...whether I could legally use it is another matter and that is what we are discussing.

Here's the conundrum:

On the one hand, using deadly force to prevent someone from stealing your jetski (or whatever) does seem clearly disproportionate.

On the other hand, though, what's the alternative?  Letting the bad guys run off to steal again another day is also an undesirable outcome and, realistically, the only way to avoid that outcome is to use deadly force.  Unless the perpetrator is a lone five year old kid, you aren't going to be able to just grab him and hold on until the police arrive.  Nor can you engage in some sort of "fair fight" where you start off throwing punches and wait until the bad guy pulls a weapon before you use your gun.  

We might regret it if everyone started gunning down burglars and vandals, but I do think that the prospect of facing that one-in-a-hundred crazy SOB who's ready to shoot does a lot to deter property (and other) crime in the United States.  
 

TheRedGoat:

You should go to law school.  Seriously!  I've never met you (BRC 2?), but if you come across in person the way you do here, you'd be the next Gerry Spence!

I agree with Texas' law regarding the protection of property, but have one question.  Is Robbery defined as the "taking of property [b]from one's person[/b]" in Texas?  In WI, your house is burgled (burglary) but your person is robbed (robbery).  It's a distinction that a lot of people gloss over -- though it's hard to gloss over that in court!  [:D]

BTW, Naked, you did what a lot of us would have fantasized about doing.  Scaring the shit out of these punks.  Man, you're lucky you knew your legal envirnment and could get away with it!  I'd never try that here, but the legal environment is not conducive to protecting one's self in this state.  [:(]

Sure. IMVHO, it would still be an execution.

Look, let's not look into how we could get away with killing two guys trying to steal a jetski.

It doesn't serve our purposes or cause very well at all.

P3[pyro][^][heavy]

Perhaps.  Is going to investigate a strange noise malicious?  Is being prepared for an encounter with a violent intruder malicious?  Malice (rage) might arise in the split second between spotting the burglars and pressing the trigger, but then that's not really "aforethough".  I suppose it depends on how good your lawyer is and who's on the jury.

Now, if you were to hang a sign reading "UNSECURED VALUABLES INSIDE" on the garage door and then were to camp out by the driveway with a ghillie suit and a Beta-C mag, that might be pushing it. [:D]  

The guns are in a safe.

I'm gettin' a dog or make a hole in the fence so my neighbor's dogs can visit anytime.

What I did, is protect my house and property from being burglarized. Thank God, there are still people, "LEO's", who recognize this as common sense and not legal bs verbage. Aggravated assault? Not hardly...there was no "physical" evidence to support that claim. Did you see who was shooting? Nope. Did you know where the shots came from? Nope. Was it a pistol or rifle? Dunno. How many people were shooting? Dunno. Are you sure you were being shot at and it was'nt pyro-technical devices or fireworks? Dunno. You do realize you were in the act of committing a crime when you heard these so-called shots? Uhhhhhh. dunno. Your witness counselor...

And btw Pyro...in the State of Florida, even if they were outside of my dwelling...if they are on my private property and I FEEL (iminent danger), they CAN be shot...if they attempt to flee they cannot.Try reading the law instead parsing it.

This is my understanding from the CCW class and I still have those shooting guidelines underlined. I appreciate your effort to immasculate the law. But, I did not shoot at them...sorry, I fired warning shots in the air.

And frankly I could care less what the hell you think..you were not there. Your property was not being stolen before your very eyes...and common sense does not seem to inhabit your mind.

Good luck next semester defending coffee burn victims from McDonalds...they could use you.

I refuse to live in fear...if they did come back for any reason. So be it. I'm sure the sounds of a 31 shot rapid fire made them more brave and brazen. Common thieves going for a specific item like a jetski...don't seem to be the hardcore criminals that would break into a home and rape or murder someone. I was well aware of this...the Sheriff informed me that they probably knew everything about the ski and thats why they went directly to it and by-passed other pawn-type items. Not to mention they brought cable cutters...they knew how the ski was secured.

I reiterate...I was within the law and within MY LEGAL rights as a citizen...no aggravated assault. No crime committed by homeowner. No death, damage or injury. Just 2 haoles who got to hear the rare sound of an AR15 firing from in front of the barrel. Hopefully this will be enough to deter them from ever coming back..if not. I'm dying to try the tracer rounds....just kidding.

Thanks to everyone who shouted the atta boyz...I do not feel bad for what happened, not in the least. I thought I'd share my story for what it was worth...strange times in America when the criminals become the victims and the citizens become the criminals. Sad indeed.

[b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]

Takes a day and a night to drive across the great state of Texas.  I think we can squeeze you in. [:D]

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

Who cares what you think is the law when it comes down to protecting property or lives. For example-- the TX Penal code states you can protect your life or property, and other's lives or property (as long as you "believe" they wanted protection), and that the use of deadly force can be used during the commission of a felony ($2K worth of damage or theft), or at night.

And you say you are a laywer? hmmm...

Good job NG! I probably would have killed them in the act, before they had a chance to run-- being grand theft ya know... I probably would have shown them that crime does not pay, and make an example out of them-- they knew the risks before attempting the burglary of a habitat. If they ran, I would have fired MANY MANY warning shots as well, and probably have shot at the truck. Who knows if they had other stolen goods in their truck?

Absofragginlutely not, but that's not what he was talking about.



Hell phucking no. It's logical, moral, ethical, and legal.



You got it right - For those of us who have not had the experience of having to shoot someone, you have to know this: You have to survive the incident, then survive in the courtroom.



ROTFLMAOTIP!!!!

P3[pyro][^][heavy]

Hyguy,
Yepper..that would be it. Maybe you can enlighten some of the other posters on how big the reservation is. The largest land mass base in the world. I'm on the north side of Racetrack towards the reservation...nothing but trees for miles. Hurlburt still has it's 130's doing nightfires..and Eglin got a squadron of A-10 warthogs...they both do some serious boom,boom at night. It's actually kind of comforting to hear the brrrrrrups at night.

[b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]

Whoa buddy, I said good job earlier (even though I wouldn'ta done it myself), but nobody is trying to crucify you. I appreciate the legal analysis from P3 - and if you're wise, you'll pay attention to it too. He is telling you what a cop in FL COULD charge you with.

Step down, nobody's calling these punks victims. Like it or not, you were on VERY shakey legal ground.

It amazes me how people keep missing the part where he fired his shots into an uninhabited 1,000 sq. mile AF reservation.  That's not "surrounding population" that I'd be concerned with.

Naked-Gunman, you did good in my eyes, though I would have just said .22 and not lied about it being a Ruger.  It could be excusable that you shot a .223 instead of a .22 if someting came of it.  

I bet those sorry sacks of turds won't be coming back to your place any time soon unless they truly have a death wish.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

I am still a little puzzled about the part where you told the Sherrif you used a 10/22.  If the Sherrif "knows" you, and you have been friends for a long time, I don't see what the problem is.  You mean the Sherrif didn't do a walk through with you that night for the report and didn't notice any .223 casings?  With as many shots that you fired, I am smelling full auto.  I guess those DIAS really do work. [:D]  I don't know, I wasn't there, but that many rounds sure does seem like a lot for just "semi fire" warning shots.  I think 3 to 5 would have been sufficient. I am glad you are ok.  You are lucky one of the BG's didn't fire back at you while you were shooting your "warning shots".

TX Penal Code
[url]http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/statutes.html[/url]

9.01.3 "Deadly force" means force that is intended or known by
the actor to cause, or in the manner of its use or intended use is
capable of causing, death or serious bodily injury.


9.04. Threats as Justifiable Force

        The threat of force is justified when the use of force is
justified by this chapter.  For purposes of this section, a threat
to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a
weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to
creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if
necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.


9.05. Reckless Injury of Innocent Third Person

        Even though an actor is justified under this chapter in
threatening or using force or deadly force against another, if in
doing so he also recklessly injures or kills an innocent third
person, the justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable
in a prosecution for the reckless injury or killing of the innocent
third person.

9.32. Deadly Force in Defense of Person

        (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against
another:

        (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other
under Section 9.31;

        (2) if a reasonable person in the actor's situation would not
have retreated;  and

        (3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly
force is immediately necessary:

        (A) to protect himself against the other's use or attempted
use of unlawful deadly force;  or

        (B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated
kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault,
robbery, or aggravated robbery.

        (b) The requirement imposed by Subsection (a)(2) does not
apply to an actor who uses force against a person who is at the
time of the use of force committing an offense of unlawful entry in
the habitation of the actor.

TX Penal Code
[url]http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/statutes.html[/url]

[b](continued)[/b]

9.33. Defense of Third Person

        A person is justified in using force or deadly force against
another to protect a third person if:

        (1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes
them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32
in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the
unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to
be threatening the third person he seeks to protect;  and

        (2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is
immediately necessary to protect the third person.


9.41. Protection of One's Own Property

        (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable
property is justified in using force against another when and to
the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately
necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land
or unlawful interference with the property.

        (b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible,
movable property by another is justified in using force against the
other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the
force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the
property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh
pursuit after the dispossession and:

        (1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of
right when he dispossessed the actor;  or

        (2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force,
threat, or fraud against the actor.

TX Penal Code
[url]http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/statutes.html[/url]

[b](continued)[/b]

9.42. Deadly Force to Protect Property

        A person is justified in using deadly force against another to
protect land or tangible, movable property:

        (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other
under Section 9.41;  and

        (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly
force is immediately necessary:

        (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson,
burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime,
or criminal mischief during the nighttime;  or

        (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after
committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during
the nighttime from escaping with the property;  and

        (3) he reasonably believes that:

        (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by
any other means;  or

        (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or
recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to
a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

TX Penal Code
[url]http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/statutes.html[/url]

[b](continued)[/b]

9.43. Protection of Third Person's Property

        A person is justified in using force or deadly force against
another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third
person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them
to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in
using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property
and:

        (1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference
constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief
to the tangible, movable property;  or

        (2) the actor reasonably believes that:

        (A) the third person has requested his protection of the land
or property;

        (B) he has a legal duty to protect the third person's land or
property;  or

        (C) the third person whose land or property he uses force or
deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent, or child,
resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.

Next time save the second mag for any remaining threats. And try for a little more fire discipline.

Have you not ever fired a stock Ruger 10-22 with 50 round magazines??? I can pull the trigger and empty the magazine in less than 30 seconds (with reasonable accuaracy). Almost any semi-auto can spit out 31 rounds quickly.

I hope not...



Excellent idea. I wish that I could.



-Except your statement in a public forum.



You are correct.

I'll preface the next to ensure that this is a partial list of what a sqarenuts LEO or State Atty [b][i]could[/i][/b]  have charged you with:
-Discharging a Firearm in Public (790.015),
-Aggravated Assault (784.021),
-Improper Exhibition of a Firearm (790.10),
-Use of Force in Defending (Property) (776.031),
-Obstuction (843.14)...

Look, I'm not admonishing you. I'm not "dissing" you. I'm not flaming you. I know you're one of the good guys.

I'm exstatic that you and your family are in one piece and you're not in jail. -This could have gone very differently for you.

People on this board know me - I'm not one of those squarenuts cops or SAs. My personal view of your actions? No blood, no foul.[:D]

P3[pyro][^][heavy]

Hey P3-- where are the laws posted online for Florida? I will be visiting there more often and need to review the laws of the land. (I was there last weekend-- the beach was fun.)

This is a clip from the TX Penal code-- I believe this is the part RedGoat meant to refer to, instead of (Sec 9.32.a.3.B: DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON). (Burglary is actually listed in Sec 9.42)

9.42. Deadly Force to Protect Property

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to
protect land or tangible, movable property:

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly
force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson,
burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime,
or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

Jeez... I'll hafta get back to ya on that - I'm at home, but tomorrow I'll be at work. It'll be a day delayed: I work a 24hr shift (you know, I do the cop/medic/fireman thing).

Try "laws of the state of Florida" in google in the meantime.

P3[pyro][^][heavy]

P.S.: You gonna be in the WPB area? Contact me off board. [:D]

You also could have hit an animal, and left them wounded, to die a LOOONNNGGG slow death.

Energizer,
Really, post a link next time. Scrolling your legal jumbo is quite the pain, and I thought we were talking about FL here.

Edited to add: It takes you 30 seconds to empty a 50rd .22????

Just wanted to add a humorous comment made by a liberal girlie-friend of mine who I made read this:

i was waiting for the...and then i tripped and accidently pulled the trigger and shot the guy in the head and killed him and when i went over to see him it was actually my son back from college who was painting it as a fathers day present.



Riiiiight.. I won't even start.

What you BELIEVE is no interest to me.  In Texas after dark if someone attempts to steal a car in the street, rob a person of their property, vandalize property or a shopping list of other property related crimes they have just signed their own death warrant.  What you believe don't make sh!t.  If you're too weak-minded to preserve what's yours then you'll get your just deserts.  Along with most Texans I wouldn't hesitate to protect my family, life and property.  The law on this is no secret to anyone and is probably why crime is lower where I live than you.

*edited to add that, like fishing, I believe in "shoot and release".

We were, but TX and other states were brought up. Sorry. Just trying to prove a point.

Yes-- under 30 seconds of semi-auto fire, if I remember correctly. I cranked off 100 rounds in a row (two 50 rounders) "jungle" clipped. I think it was 35-40 seconds for the entire 100 rounds. Why? is that good or bad? I got better as time went on, but now the magz and extractor are worn out.

And people call me a hard ass...

Boy we have some hard line Texans in here. Guess I'm not kool enough to be part of that crew.

Keep up your influence though! I love these laws! I *probably* wouldn't shoot somebody just for stealing property though, but it all depends. I could be rather ruthless depending on the situation...

Just givin ya a hard time; I guess you are talking about truly accurate fire, for those things can easily fire upwards of 5rds/sec semi auto.

No-- its a the basic 10-22. I was actually aiming each shot... actually TRYING to hit the center (which I did). I was just saying that any semi-auto can crank off 31 rounds quickly, so someone claiming he had a full-auto was not necessarily true.

Thank you P3...I hope you understand that when all is said and done. I did everything I could to do to prepare for an event such as this. Noone ever knows the outcome of confrontations with regards to firearms...but, you can prepare to exhibit reasonable use and have justifiable actions.

Meeting with my neighbors and discussing the what ifs..eliminated some confusion or approaches on what to do. Knowing my street and surroundings provided me the luxury of being able to "safely" shoot my AR in the event of a burglary. Again..the Sheriff who investigated, presented me with the law that allowed me to do what I did. If it were not someone I knew...I still would have been within my rights. No matter....it turned out extremely well for myself and my neighbors. The more I read the questioning posts...the more I am thankful that we had a plan of action and stuck to it. Warning shots were part of the plan...and it was legal.

In the report it says .22 rifle not Ruger..who knows? It could be a typo...223? The reason my Sheriff friend smiled..I've known him for almost 19 years...and I have worked with the Sheriff's dept. for various reasons. He knows about my gun hobby...he shoots at the Pensacola range I go to. I do have a good repor with OCS dept.. so, it's not totally strange to know some of them. I guess I am also thankful this is still considered a small town.

And I'm well aware of what "could" have happened...that is why there were hypotheticals and an actual neighborhood plan. The rash of burglaries sent that red flag up. If you cannot defend your home...we no longer live in free society. It belongs to someone else...I hope that is'nt the case.

Fire discipline...oh, my. 20 rounds do go quick though, huh?

I still rely upon the word imminent danger...as do most of the judges in this area. I'm soooo glad to be in Northwest Florida. Where we have judges with common sense. There have been numerous cases involving imminent danger in Okaloosa county. There outcomes have been positive for gunowners. I believe this is another example, eventhough it will never see a coutroom. The citizen used the laws and means to defend himself..and it worked out ok.

Good night all...my story sure had legs, huh?

[b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]

Wow.

Ignorance, arrogance, and indignance in a single post: how efficient!!

Calm yourself, sir. Reread all the above again, please. Breathe. Absorb. Pontificate. Meditate.

P3[pyro][moon][heavy]

P.S.: BTW, we were talking about Florida, dolt. [:E]

You are welcome, NG!

I just wish we had more of those kind of LEOs and judges down here!!!!

P3[pyro][^][heavy]

Say what huckelberry?

Hi. My name is Joe and I am the one who tried to steal your Jet Ski the other night. Your Jet Ski looked really fast, and I think my friend and I would have had a good time abusing it. Wow! You really scared the crap out us when you started firing off that loud gun! My friend also got bitten up pretty bad by your neighbor's dog.

One things for sure, we will never bother YOU again!

Except in this case it was burglery, not robbery.

Interesting story.  I do believe you came off lucky though.  Even though you may have been in the legal 'right', the hoops and hassles you could have been thrown into.

Here is an interesting story for those who want to read it, in reference to the hoops and hassles:

On Dec 25th 2000, my wife purchased me a Mossburg 18" 12 gauge pistol grip shotgun.  January 7th, my wife and I were getting ready to go see the movie with Meg Ryan and Russle Crowe (hostage one).

As we were getting our things together, I heard some tire screeches, etc.  I live in a cold-de-sac, and opened the door to see what the commotion was about.

At the opening of the street, there were two cars parked in a V shape blocking another truck in.  There were approx. 12 guys surrounding the truck, while hitting it with baseball bats, rocking it back and forth, etc.  It looked like this mob was going to kill the guy in the truck.

I yelled to my wife, had her call 911.  I grabbed my shotgun, and had it pointed in the air the entire time.  I opened the door, and politely commented "We do not need this activity in this neighborhood.  Leave now. The police are on the way."  The gun was in CLEAR sight, and I was making sure the punk kids could see it.

After some grumbling, and a few shocked reactions of "OH **** he has a gun", the kids basically left.  The driver in the truck also sped off.

Well, I put the firearm away.  We get in the car, and head out to the theatre.  No police as of yet.  As we are driving down the side-street heading to the main road, I see a police car. I stop him, and let him know of the situation (told him everything).

Guess what? Long story short, I was handcuffed and placed in the back of the squad car.  My house was searched, and the shotgun was detained by the police.  I was charged with Aggravated Assault with a deadly weapon.

The charges were dropped, and I did receive the gun back. Maybe I will fill in the details later when I feel like writing all that went down after flagging the cop.  But see what happens when you try to do good?

Arock:

I owe you an apology. Even though you were slinging personal insults at me, and, well, others, it did not necessitate me returning in kind. I usually hold myself to a higher standard.

I'm sorry.

P4(ParaPyroPenitentPig)[pyro][^][heavy]

Editted to add:

Red RX7,

Holy shit! -This is what I mean about an officer squarenuts.

I hope you're clear of all that BS, now.

I would have done the same thing NakedGunman. I don't care what anyone else says either. A man in his own neighborhood, in his own unique circumstances acts differently than anyone else would "predict" from behind a computer. Good job.
If it were me, I would have had a hard time choosing between my Eagle ARms Carbine or my NFA Mac-10 in .45acp. Something about a 30 round stick of .45acp being "dumped" in about 3 seconds seems to sound intimidating.
colt