Okay, we need to back up. There is no state or county sales tax on interstate purchases. When is the last time you made an out of state purchase over the internet and paid a sales tax? If you had to pay taxes on out of state purchases and pay shipping, you would essentially shut down interstate commerce. It just wouldn't be economically feasible to buy out of state, usually.

My figure of 8.25 % sales tax is county tax. Only applicable to sales made in this county.

The only thing in this transaction that was taxable was the purchase of the FAL receiver, which I paid, and maybe the tax on the $50.00 fee, which was really $15.00 for DROS, and $35.00 fee. So the dealer made $35.00 to receive a box in the mail and log it into his books.

It is illegal, according to the CA DOJ to charge more than $25.00 for a firearms transfer in the first place. At least that was what I was told by another FFL, but he lives too far away from me to be a feasible source for transfers and purchases. However this guy does charge $25.00 total including DROS, he only makes $10.00 on the transaction.

Trust me, the second guy is doing just fine, and not evading any taxes.

And as to getting stung, why don't you name names, so no one else gets in potential hot water.

You just flat don't get it do you?

Would have loved to get that kind of return - gun would have gone on our shelf at $449 - $459.

Thanks Steyr you just saved me some typing!

BeeKeeper,

There is a problem with your logic, the point of retail sale is in another state, so why do you think the dealer who just does the transfer should collect sales tax on the full purchase price?  Some states charge tax on services so I guess the dealer should charge tax on his transfer fee but not on the full price paid to an out of state dealer.

Let say I took a trip to a state that did not charge sales tax like New Hampshire or Tennessee and I purchased a rifle while I was there, and when I returned home I had the rifle shipped to one of my local dealers. Now why should the local dealer charge sales tax on a rifle he did not sell and which was purchased in another state?

And another thank you to Mcuzi - maybe I should quit typing and read ahead to the end!

well the tax thing around here goes like this. if the dealer buys the gun for you he charges you tax and some do that as a matter of policy. then the other ones do not charge you tax if you pay the seller yourself since here their is no tax on a service being done and then he only charges his transfer fee.
if they charge you tax and you pay for the weapon yourself by sending the money to the seller yourself and the only thing the dealer is doing is the transfer you should check your tax laws where you live and if he is charging when he does not have to he may not know that. as I do not know to many folks that want to pay uncle one red dime more than he needs to get.

The states are trying and will be making sure they will get their tax cut.  Unfortunately the Liberal SOB in my state capitol was the one that introduced it at the last governors conference.

Beekeeper,

Okay, now I do see your point.

But to get back to the subject, I am not in a shop to waste anyone's time. I go to shops to buy. I should be treated fairly if they want return business.

I will pay more, willingly, as long as it's reasonable. I think I have shown that in my previous transactions.

I like the personal touch, especially when it comes to firearms purchases. I really like having a readily available source for help or technical info.

I work for the dealers trust, but they gotta work for mine.

I think that you gotta support your local FFLs. I buy my ammo from them even though it's cheaper on the net and I just ordered a bushy XM15 from him even though I prefer prebans.

Still, the FFLs must expand their scope. They need to get a web site and expand their customer base. I have been helping my local FFL by listing some guns that he has on consignment on the boards. He should get a web site built that would sell everything that he normally sells over the counter.

Another thing that they  need to do is to offer services that the big guys don't. My FFL also teaches handgun classes, etc. This is a good way to increase traffic, store loyalty and does not require a big capital investment.

I will say it again.  THERE IS NO DEBATE.

You can't compete with home depot so DON'T TRY, period.

People bitch about service but all it takes is a drive to Costco, Walmart, Home Depot to see what people really think.  You vote with your dollars and the is NO CONTEST.

You HAVE to go the extra mile and do something you can't get at a huge discount store ie. refinishing, accurarizing, custom guns, blueing, collector guns etc. etc.  You need real expertise, premium service and premium product.  Buying a reloading part doesn't take any skill and that is why Cabella's can do it better.




WHY I CAN'T SHOP LOCALLY, and believe me I have tried.


1)  Lack of Knowledge, I'm sorry but many gun shop owners don't know much about guns, IMO.  Most are burnt out and many don't even shoot!!  Most don't know the laws and don't care to learn them.  Don't believe me, go to a gun show. I can learn WAY more on the internet in 5 minutes.  Example, ask what the best scope mount for an AR is on AR15.com and you will learn Arms #22 and Armalite.  Now go drive to FFLs and ask that same question, let us know when you get the right answer.  Gun stores are no longer the best source for gun info.  Zero value to the sale.

2)  Stock, who cares if they are local if they don't have anything in stock?  I found a great local shop but all he has are Jap guns and .22s.  If I want ANYTHING it has to be ordered.  This is a NEGATIVE since it now has to be shipped to him and then I can pick it up.

3) PRICE, first off you are full of shit if you say you are paying sales tax on mail order stuff.  So right off the bat 5%, and around here AR15 lowers are $350, SAR1s are $425, SKS $195 prebans $1,800 etc. etc. We are talking 30-60% above mail order prices.  Ammo is sometimes 100% higher!  Huge negative.

4) Service, I'm sorry but many times the service at a Home Depot store is WAY better.  Many gun dealers can't be bothered to answer your questions.  I see zero improvment over Walmart or any other store they are both bad.

So if I know more about what I am looking for, get poor service, have to pay 30-100% more why would I shop there?  

To keep FFLs around because they will go under if I don't?  Bullshit.  That is the beauty of capitolism, there are only enough FFLs to meet current demand.  If they are going under there are too many.

What if they all go under?  They will spring up and charge enough to do transfers in the like and they will get it because they are the only game in town.  Then other will spring up seeing the profits that can be made and undercut the other guy until the perfect amount of FFLs are around.  

EC101

Here's what I don't understand about the specialty gunshop business:

Customer walks in, presumbably has the interest, desire, and resources to purchase a firearm.  He or she talks to the salesman/dealer, holds the firearm in his/her hands, and then walks out of the store to make the purchase of the same, exact firearm at Wal-Mart.

Anyone's first reaction is going to be that the customer is price-concious and will, in the words of the economist, "maximize utility."

But why can't the gunshop salesman make the sale when he has the customer right there as a captive audience, with intent to buy, and money in his/her pocket??  Why doesn't the gunshop salesman invest in sales training or learn basic selling skills?  Afterall, the customer has come to him, wants information, "tries out" the product, and is "sold" to the extent he/she quickly makes the purchase somewhere else.  

Note to SHOT show organizers:  include a seminar on how to close the retail sale of the firearm.

I shop local and buy local whenever I can, but some of these guys make it tough:

No stock
No knowledge
Lousy hours
Lousy attitude
Jackpot pricing

Hell, I'll pay $75-$100 more than "internet" or "Shotgun News" pricing, but not to anyone who exhibits the above.

GeoffM24
You nailed it perfectly.

Lets talk about inventory for a second, as it pertains to Handguns.

With a 5 day waiting period there is no need for inventory.
All he needs are some HG's for display and that's it.
Every dealer I ever spoke to about a HG had to make a call to one of his distributors for a price check and serial number.
Nobody ever walked back to the safe and pulled out a new HG that I could buy.
The FFL never has to worry about HG inventory eating a hole in his pocket.
Perhaps the only benefit of the Brady Law as I see it.
In NY(my county that is) it takes a minimum of 6 weeks before you can pick up your HG.
A smart dealer could make good use the 5 days or 6 weeks to put together a large enough order enabling him to receive free shipping and/or bigger discounts.
Thereby increasing his profits.

So what are you going to do, pass a law preventing people from shopping at Wal-Mart?  You can't compete with Wal-Mart on price, but Wal-Mart only sells certain things.  Offer the things they do not like service, knowledgable staff, specialty firearms, evil assault weapons, HANDGUNS, internet transfers, hi caps, top of the line hunting rifles and shotguns (unlike the crap Wal-Mart stocks), reloading supplies, and high-end ammo.  Don't even bother to sell the stuff that they carry, it will just make you look bad.

There is a ton of stuff serious shooters want that Wal-Mart does not stock.  If you are just competing with Wal-Mart on price, you are going to lose.  But their strategy has comprimises and limitations which can be exploited.  Be where they are not and find your niche.

While it is true that Wal-Mart will put a lot of small shops out of business, there will still be FFLs out there to do transfers because there is demand for that.  There is actually increasing demand because of the internet.

Free markets and competition provides choices and low prices for consumers, not fat living for sellers.  You need to get out of a market with heavy competition and find your niche.  Unless you can compete on price, that is the only way to make money.

This is an interesting discussion.  I usually will patronize a gun shop if they do not treat me like I am wasting their time.  Sadly, about half of all gun shops do this.

Another thing that I have been struck by is the general lack of sales skills.  If I were running a gun store and a person walked in, I would treat him like a potential sale, talk to him, chat with him, and try and sell him as much stuff as I could.  I almost never see this happen at many gun stores.  It is sometimes unusual to even be greeted!

Fortunately, I have now found a store that has relatively good service and a decent selection of guns, ammo, parts and reloading equipment, so I am going to give them as much business as I can.  For those of you in Austin, Texas, this is Red's Shooting Range at:
[url]www.redsguns.com[/url]

I liked the suggestion of one of the earlier posters about creating a list of gun shops with good customer service.

Listening to some of the stories here just makes me realize how lucky I am to have my gun shop.  The hours are odd - T,W,TH 6-9pm,  Sat 12-5pm, but the individuals who are there are some of the most helpful individuals that I know.

I realize that I could have made my last purchase off the net (a black poweder rifle) and saved about $100, but I shudder to think about what I would not have gotten.

For the extra $100 dollars, I had one of the clerks (a black powder shooter of 20+ years) take me through the process of loading, firing and cleaning the rifle.  (I only wanted to spend about 30 minutes there, ended up staying for an hour and a half.)  Then he went through the explaination of different powders, bullets, patches and such.  Finally, he went through and got me the basics for what I would need to start shooting (this is my first blackpowder weapon), along with giving me quite a bit of literature to read once I got back home.

With everything said on this board, it seems that it is vital to support the people who give great service like this.  I do not purchase my ammo from them, and they have even encouraged me to go elsewhere, since they really do not stock much. With the type of honesty and great information that they give, I know that I will be using them for the majority of my firearms needs.

I just wish they had better hours.

Have you looked at a dealer catalog lately?  Next to the majority of guns listed is POR (price on request).  Makes it kinda tuff to quote prices.

My point was that he doesn't have any inventory. Therefore he has no expense to recoup.
If he stocked any HG's he would've known the retail price instantly, since his cost is already fixed.
Not until I pay in full does a gun get ordered.
He should be glad he doesn't have a note hanging over his head, Due in 30 days.
It's not like this in most businesses.
What do I get out of this arrangement?
A guy looking to hit a HomeRun with an outrageous price on a gun he hasn't invested $.10 cents into.

I can't believe you have to wait that long.  People say Mass is bad but I can have pistol in my hands in 30 minutes.

I try to support my local gun stores but find it very hard to. 2 years ago I was looking for either a Springfield TRP 1911 or a Kimber Gold Match. One store in town did have the Kimber and I went to look at it. At that time, internet price for the Kimber was about $900-$1000. I figure getting it local would cost a couple hundred more and I was willing to pay it. So I have like $1400 cash in my pocket and I go to the store. I see the Kimber Gold Match and take a look at it. The chamber and barrel is filthy, looks like it had a couple hundred rounds through it with no cleaning. There are scratches all over the front of the grip, this normally happens when the shooter wears a ring on his shooting hand. I ask the dealer if he has a new one. He tells me that gun is new. I ask about all the fouling and scratches, he says it's dirty from factory test shooting and the scratches are from people handling the gun. I ask him if he is left handed, he says "yeah, how did you know". I said his wedding band is scratching the gun when he shoots it on the weekends. He then says he only shot it a few times. I told him he could at least clean the gun if he's gonna try to pass it off as new. I have guns that are almost 20 years old with thousands of rounds through them that look more "new" than his Kimber. I ask for a break in the price since I don't consider the gun new. He stills want $1300 for it. $300 or more over retail for a gun that is far from "new". I leave the store disgusted to never return.

Ok, forget about the Kimber, another store has Springfields so I go in hopes of finding the TRP. Of course they do not have the TRP and try to sell me the crap that they do have. I relent, I have done my research and the only Springfield that I want is the TRP. He calls his distributor and they don't have one, maybe they can find one in a few months. I don't want to wait. I tell the guy that I can buy a TRP online if he will do the transfer. He won't do transfers on any new guns, store policy. OK, so you don't have the gun I want, can't order me one, and refuse to do a transfer. You are useless to me, go out of business already.

Almost giving up, I go home and hit the phone book and call a couple other stores that are on the other side of town to see if they have what I want or are willing to accept the transfer. None of the store has what I want or can get one in any kind of timely matter. One store will do transfer for me but wants 35%, shit that's $350 (TRP cost a grand retail at the time) for a freaking transfer, kiss my ass. Another store only wants $25 transfer fee + 25%, great that's $275 for a transfer. I tell them they can go f*ck themsleves. Luckily, there was gun show that weekend and I found my Springfield TRP for about$900. Going one of the few gun stores that would do a transfer I would have paid over $1400.

It's not just about price either. The local gun shop owners have no clue what customer service is. I walk into one of the stores, get no greeting whatsoever, the employees are too busy yapping at each other to notice me staring at them. I have to "barge" into their conversation after I get tired of waiting and ask to see a gun. A class in how to treat customers would go a long way.

continued (cuz I talk too much)


I have no use for local gun stores. I am an educated gun buyer. I research and know what gun I want before I go shopping for it. They hardly ever have what I want, they can't order what I want, either won't do a transfer or will rape me on it. My gun range now does transfers for members for a flat fee of $25, no hidden fees, they don't try to collect tax on a gun they didn't sell me, etc. I buy all ammo online or at the range. My gunsmith is great guy that just does gunsmithing for very reasonable fees.
I've tried to support the local guys but they do not provide the services that I require and they can all close down for all I care. Between the internet and the my shooting range, I got it all covered.

And no, I do not buy guns or ammo from Walmart or Kmart either. But every time I ask a gun store to do something for me, after their reply I feel like asking "Do I look like a bitch?", "No? then why you trying to f*ck me like one".

Troy,

Good luck. I would love to have a gun shop that has a rifle range, has rifle and pistol classes and a full service gunshop such as refinishing, etc.

I see that you are in California. Are you sure you want to open up an AW oriented gunshop there?

Good luck to you Troy.  Just make sure you differentiate yourself.  Even though I hate the business I am in, being my own boss makes it worthwhile.  If you can do something you like and be the boss too, you have it made.

Keep it small, keep it all.

thebeekeeper1, in regards to your $0.26 story, here is one of my experiences:

I go into my local gun shop and tell him I want two Glocks.  He says OK, it might take a week or two.  He calls me a week or so later and tells me that he has Glock #1.  I go in and buy it.  A week later he calls and has Glock #2.  I go in and pay, and thank him.  He says "That was the same price as last time, right" as I am leaving.  I say "Yes, but I think it was a few cents more."  He stops me at the door and goes back to check over the receipts.  I say not to worry about it.  He asks me to wait.  He checks over the receipt and discovers that he charged me sales tax on NICS the second time.  I again tell him not to worry about it.  He pulls $0.52 out of the till and makes me take it.

Guess where I buy all my guns?

A local FFL dealer only buys very small amounts then markup is high usually. Wal-mart buys lets say 1000 rem 870's then they get/sell them cheaper; true! the whole buisness, and this country is all fucked up(If i don't like it move) i still love my country but it's all fucked up. I have sold of most of my collection ive have about 8 guns left i just will not part with. most of these dealer's are asshole's that iam not going to deal with no more. one more thing is jobs keep moving out of this country the way they have been how and the hell we can afford anything?

Shopping at 1gunrunner?

Damn Troy,

I was getting all excited thinking you were going to open up a store nearby, was even gonna offer to work weekends.  Then you say your MOVING.  Ugh.

Congrats on getting outa here.  Wish I could follow ya.  See you the 28th.  [:)]

Unfortunate, but it's the truth.  I've seen the Davidson ads that my buddy gets.  The sale price listed on 10-22 Rugers is HIGHER then the local Bi-mart stores (for you who are out west, you know Bi-mart) or Walmart!!!  I mean a 10-22, for less about $122!!!!


Get this, I have my LEGP on display at his shop.  Somone asked about it....wanted to by it.  Buddy told him the info on where to go to get one.  Get this, this guy won't take the time to order it on the net for the 660.  He's that lazy.  My buddy admits to people that he can't get it lower!!!  And that is the truth......

thebeekeeper1,

[b]THAT SUCKS[/b]

I would never lift a finger to help that guy again....

Tate

thebeekeeper1,

(Sorry if this comes off as a rant I don't mean it to, but this tax thing is one of my pet peeves.)


How do you know what the selling price of the firearm was, unless the person transferring the gun tells you or you see his receipt?

How do you charge taxes on a straight trade?

I decide to trade my Steyr Aug for a H&K 93 that my buddy has in Indiana.  We do a straight trade but we need to have both rifles transferred.  What tax would you charge me?  No sale was made by either you or me, so would you charge me tax on the sujective worth of the rifle and who or what would be the authority for the worth of the firearm?

When you do your taxes, how do you account for the money you took in on taxes on a transfer?  What do you add in a sale in your accounting books that never took place?  You have to charge so much tax on so much in sales but your sales revenue for tax purposes don't match your actual sales.  It makes no sense.

You are performing a service (the transfer).  In Illinois there are no taxes on services.  I will check on Missouri.

Just because Missouri wanted you to get a tax number, that doesn't equate to you having to charge taxes on an item that you transfer.  I personally, as I stated in another thread, tell my transfer dealer, if he is curious, how much I paid for a gun.  I do it out of courtesy to him.  If I transfer anywhere else, I request the shipper to not include any sort of receipt in the box with the gun.  I get the receipt sent via the mail.  

Why do I do this?  The first gun that I ever had transferred, the dealer in Illinois would not release the gun to me until I paid him tax on the purchase price which of course was completely wrong according to the tax code.


As for the local gunshops.  I try to support the good ones.  I won't prop up the bad ones.  If they all go away then we are screwed, but I am not going to subsidize a bad one to keep it around. If there are only bad ones around you, then you are already screwed.  Why throw good money at them?