"And God brought forth man and Satan, so what's the difference?"

That's a good question, 1 of those round and round questions that can really test faith. Who knows.

Quoted: Christ never met you. SGtar15

Eph-1-3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ,
4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,
5 in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will,

Thats OK He loves you anyway.

Quoted: There is no FREE WILL in the pure sense, people make choices but those choices are influenced by a subtle inperceptable force called spirit. Free will denies the sovereignty of God. God takes responsibility for everything.

God created us in his image, meaning we are beings of free will who exercise control over our character and destinies and thus can be held responsible and judged for their actions and the results of their actions.  Free will does not deny the soverignty of God.  It pleased God to create a universe of "perfect fullness", a universe occupied by beings that could exercise choice and free will and thus merit salvation, as opposed to a clockwork creation of automatons which could never merit salvation.  Free will is a sign of God's love for us, not a cruel punishment.

Most of this comes straight from St. Agustine, so I expect both the Atheist element and the born-again protestant element here to flame the hell out of me.  Oh well...

Quoted: Do you believe that God has a master plan and that everything is pre-ordained to happen exactly as it does? Or do you believe that every fucked up, miserable, senseless thing that happens is the result of people's free will?

God has a sovereign will that no man can trample. He also has a permissive will that allows for freedom.

The evil in our world is wholely the result of man's actions, and not God's. Because we can choose our actions moment to moment, we are free.

But God sovereignly pronounced that death would be the result of man's sins. And as a result every human who has ever lived has died.

I don't believe in the fatalistic Islam idea that everything that happens is God's will, as this removes moral accountability for our actions. If I cannot help but do the will of God, then I am not responsible for myself.

We can choose to live our lives either as good men or evil ones. To help the poor and the needy or to cut the heads off of innocent people. The choice is ours and we will be called to account for it.

Quoted: Quoted: I thought  that the normal Christian lin was that God gave us free will? No that is the common misconception but not the truth, God knows the end from the beginning the alpha and the omega, a sparrow doesn't fall without his notice, the hairs on your head are numbered and known by Him. People try to make God small like a human so they can comprehend Him rather than woship Him as the Creator of the universe beyond the capability of simple text language to communicate such glory.

God does indeed give us free will. But because He is God He knows what we will do long before we actually do it. God knows our hearts and can accurately judge what every man's motives and desires will be. He knew Adam would sin before He created the world, which is why the Lamb (Christ) was "slain from the foundation of the world."

Christ came fulfilling all the signs of the Messiah, but He knew that the hard hearted religious leaders would reject Him because He was not the Messiah they expected. But Jesus still taught and rebuked and performed signs and wonders confirming His status as Messiah before them. God knew Ahab was wicked, but He sent prophet after prophet and even gave Ahab victory over enemies to demonstrate His power and Lordship to Ahab.

In each instance, people chose their own way. They were confronted by God and He demanded a choice of them, but the choice was theirs. But because God is who He is, there is nothing that we do that is a suprise to Him.

This is why God is able to use even the evil decisions of men and fallen angels to accomplish His own purposes.

Quoted: Quoted: Please answer my question:  How can there be sin, if there is no free will? The trouble here I believe is in the definition of what free means, simply the word free means without influence, since every choice you make is influenced it is not free. There is no way to answer the free-will question with seven words or less and why just one essay is linked. If you reduce the question to the eleven words above you just used the only answer that is as short is that there is no sin at that level.

If Strat is talking about ABSOLUTE free will, that is a different thing entirely.

Absolute free-will is exercised in the absence of any outside influence or situation. Men do not have this type of will. Adam, for instance, did not decide to exist of his own account, or decide of his own account to have a relationship with God. This is a power man does not have, as our existence is dependent.

Free will as we come to know it is that a situation beyond our control arises, and we are forced to make a choice. The choice we make in reaction to the situation is our own, even though the situation that brought us to the point of decision was not our doing.

Though Adam did not choose to exist or choose to have a relationship with God, he could choose to throw that relationship away. God created Adam for fellowship, but not desiring robots, God gave him moral accountability and freedom to do what was not God's perfect will.

Every heart beat, every breath, that every man takes he takes by the permission of Almighty God. Some can then argue that everything that a man does is the will of God since God permits him to live.  God does permit people to live wicked lives by sustaining that life, but this is not His will for them. Out of faithfulness to Himself and His own Word, God allows men to live and to make even evil choices. But God is NOT the cause of evil choices, nor is He forcing them.

God created Satan as an exalted cherub. But within Lucifer God also placed the ability to choose rebellion. This does not mean God is accountable for that rebellion, as the creation doesn't have any right to complain to the Creator about their makeup....

Quoted: Quoted: Therefore, you worship a God who created a certain portion of the population specifically in order to send them to Hell, and endure eternal torment! . off topic but the eternal torment doctrine is a dogma of demons.

OK. Strat just lost me there. Christ spoke more of Hell and eternal torment than He did of eternal bliss in heaven. So why is it that we so stridently believe in Heaven and not in Hell?

God is always previous. No man can confess Christ without the working of the Holy Spirit within them. There is such a thing as an "election of grace" whereby those who are saved are "chosen" from the foundation of the world. But because God knows the end from the beginning, He can see how a person will live their life, what circumstances will influence it, and exactly what will happen moment to moment in their existence.

Thus God knew an eternity ago what I would be doing this very moment, and He knows right now what/where I will be an eternity from now.

But this does NOT mean that I am not morally accountable to Him. For though God loved me from the foundations of the world, and though God has persued me and worked on my soul by the power and witness of the Holy Spirit, I can choose tomorrow to spit in His face and be the worst kind of rebel. I have that freedom. I can disobey Him at any moment I wish.

But I do not desire to do those things. When I began submitting myself to God, He began to make me different than I was.

It is a strange concept to those who don't know the reality of it, but it is so easy for me that I can hardly believe it.

The truth is that should I one day enter the rest of my Lord, then I deserve absolutely no credit for it. If I am saved, I am saved by His mercy and prompting. If I spend eternity in Hell, however, I do so over the strident objections of the Holy Spirit and splashing through the Blood of the Cross that was shed for me.

It sounds odd, but this is how it works for every man....

Quoted: Or do you believe that every fucked up, miserable, senseless thing that happens is the result of people's free will?

That about covers it.

Quoted: Absolute free-will is exercised in the absence of any outside influence or situation. Men do not have this type of will. Adam, for instance, did not decide to exist of his own account, or decide of his own account to have a relationship with God. This is a power man does not have, as our existence is dependent.

If you use that definition, there can never be any free will, so the matter isn't even worth debating, any more than the existence of a 3-sided square.  Even if there were no God, no Devil, we are subject to outside influence.  (Ambient temperature, other people's opinions, etc.)  Certainly if my friend tells me to do something, I still have "free will" to deny him.  Similarly, if I am influenced by the Holy Spirit to do something, I have "free will" to deny Him.

Quoted: Do you believe that God has a master plan and that everything is pre-ordained to happen exactly as it does? Or do you believe that every fucked up, miserable, senseless thing that happens is the result of people's free will?

Yes.

Scripture indicates both are at play.

Fiz:
The question of free will is oft debated in philosophy. Since man does not self-cause, it is obvious that he does not have absolute free will, as he does not choose to exist.  But he CAN make choices in life and CAN choose how he responds to situations, though he may not choose the circumstances that are around him.

I can see a wad of cash lying on the ground as I walk today. I didn't put the money there, but I now have the choice of what to do about it. I can be in a building that catches fire through no fault of my own. I can flee immediately or try to get others out. I did not cause the situation, but I am now free to react to the situation given to me.

Absolute free will means the ability to choose EVERYTHING in my life. This I do not have. I did not choose to exist, nor did I choose my eye color, my genetic makeup, etc. There are many things in my existence that are pre-determined and that I have no say in. This means I do not have absolute free will. I cannot, for instance, choose to be an NBA star if I have been in a wheelchair since birth.

But I am confronted day to day with situations where I DO actually have the option of doing one thing or another. So while I do not have absolute free will, I do have a measure of freedom in choosing my life and day to day actions. I can choose to go to this college or that one, to work here or there, or to do go to this restaurant or that one for dinner. In these things I am free to do as I will.

It is a difficult concept to grasp, but once grasped it makes a lot of sense. Absolute free will is a totally different thing than what we normally think of as free will.

every action has an equal and opposite reaction.  If I turn left, I get free pie.  If I turn right, I get carjacked.  

I don't personally believe that everthing is predestined.  I believe in luck, and there's only 3 kinds.  Blind, Dumb, and BAD.  

God gave us the perfect example - His Son, our Savior.  He showed us the way.  He opened the door that we might return to His presence some day.  He invites all to follow.  

It is our choice to accept that by following Him, or to try our own path.  

Hint: Only one path works.  

Quoted: Quoted: Do you believe that God has a master plan and that everything is pre-ordained to happen exactly as it does? Or do you believe that every fucked up, miserable, senseless thing that happens is the result of people's free will? Yes. Scripture indicates both are at play.

My belief as well. Good call g-man.

-LS

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Do you believe that God has a master plan and that everything is pre-ordained to happen exactly as it does? Or do you believe that every ****** up, miserable, senseless thing that happens is the result of people's free will? Yes. Scripture indicates both are at play. My belief as well. Good call g-man. -LS

Allow me to post a picture...




What is this?

Most of you will say that it's a section of a circular ring, and that the numbers and lines indicate the size of the ring.

Some will say it's three rectangles - two shaded, one unshaded, connected by lines, with some numbers and lines arranged around them.

A few will say that it's part of a mechanical drawing, but that there isn't enough information to say with any certainty what it's a drawing of.


All three statements are correct, though two are saying COMPLETELY CONTRADICTORY things and the "agnostic" at the end is saying almost nothing.

The "ultimate reality" of the drawing is none of these, but is rather something like this:


I believe the free will vs. predestination argument is a lot like this; that people look at the above drawing and argue whether it's a drawing of rectangles or circles, or even if there's enough information to say, when the ultimate reality is something whose completeness can't be described on paper.

Furthermore, the "free will" vs. "predestination" arguments are almost always about what OTHER PEOPLE do or experience.  But the question of salvation is directed to YOU, individually.

"Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following....Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, "Lord, and what shall this man do?"  Jesus saith unto him, "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me."  (John 21:20-22, my emphasis)

Brisk --

Ummm...

When I look at that picture I see Smurfs playing in a medow.

What does that say about me???

Quoted: Brisk -- Ummm... When I look at that picture I see Smurfs playing in a medow. What does that say about me???

It says "Where are you, and how do you explain the hack to my photobucket account?"

It also says "I can't spell meadow."

ETA:  Try this one...

Quoted: Quoted: Brisk -- Ummm... When I look at that picture I see Smurfs playing in a medow. What does that say about me??? It says "Where are you, and how do you explain the hack to my photobucket account?" It also says "I can't spell meadow."

Laughing so hard.....can't type........water squirting out nose.......AAAAAAAHHHHHHHGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

I haven't laughed that hard in a LOOOOONG time. Thanks.

Don't know how you found that pic, but God bless you! Made me laugh!

Quoted: Quoted: Brisk -- Ummm... When I look at that picture I see Smurfs playing in a medow. What does that say about me??? It says "Where are you, and how do you explain the hack to my photobucket account?" It also says "I can't spell meadow." ETA:  Try this one... img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/brisk322/rectringfixed.jpg

HAHAHAHA

Quoted: Do you believe that God has a master plan and that everything is pre-ordained to happen exactly as it does? Or do you believe that every fucked up, miserable, senseless thing that happens is the result of people's free will?

There is no such thing as a "god", so I guess that leaves but one, rather comfortable and logical choice for me.

Ephesians 1 1   Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2   Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3   Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4   According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5   Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6   To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7   In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8   Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9   Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10   That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11   In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12   That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. ...

(RED emphasis mine, of course. )

I don't usually get involved in these threads, because (1) my doctrine conflicts with that of most of the Christians here, (2) I love this site & have met some wonderful people here, and (3) I don't want to cause (or exacerbate) strife here, especially amongst my Christian brethren.

BUT...

Because this topic is at the crux of my faith, I will add my humble two cents to the coffers.

Notice, please:
HIS choice, not ours...
HE adopted us, not the other way around...
HIS will, not ours...
HIS good pleasure, not ours...
AN INHERITANCE, not a reward...

My belief (and I realize I am probably the only one here & will NOT be offended when you all beat me down) is that God chose His children before this world existed and that our ETERNAL fate is predestined (what we call the doctrine of "election" in my church).  I do not believe that everything is predestined to happen (what we call "absolute predestination").  God's children know Him, hear His voice, are drawn to Him and His church BECAUSE they are already eternally saved, not in order to become saved.  We obey God out of obedience because we are already going to Heaven (inheritance), not in order to get to heaven (reward).  The most beautiful thing about my doctrine IMHO is that I believe ALL Christians who have a sincere desire toward God, Christ, church, faith, etc. are children of God and heaven-bound, regardless of what name they or their church go by.  Their faith is the evidence of this.  I believe He has a people in every nation, kindred, tongue, & tribe upon the earth.  As far as "free will" in our actions, each child of God either obeys God or doesn't - but the rewards or punishments for those actions occur here, in life, in this world, and have no bearing on their eternal fate.

That's just how I see it.  I find peace and comfort in my beliefs and, even though we see things very differently, I pray that every sincere believer here finds the same in theirs.

Look how much dialogue there is over a single amendment to the constitution written in english now turn to the holy scriptures describing the Creator in koine greek language in text then translated to english with many errors and people wonder why there is so much dialogue over holy scripture.

The letter of the law is death, the spirit of the law brings life, doesn't matter whether weare talking about the constitution or holy scriptures if there is no spirit there is no life.

2Cor-3-[6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

1Cor 2-# [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
# [15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

There are different words/definition to the hell in the bible, 1. HADES 2.GEHENA 3.TARTAROUS 4.ABYSS 5.LAKE OF FIRE each of these are used in a different context and apply differently depending on who is talking who id hearing what is being addressed and when in a time line.

The only place the word eternal or everlasting is used in scripture is when it describes God, all other references only refer to a period of time, the english equivelent is EON. but this iis off topic.

Christ chose you while you were yet a sinner, you should be thankful things are not up to you and your non-existant free-will.

2-Tim-19 Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,.

Pual is an arche-type as he was the greatest sinner of all persecuting &murdering the body of Christ but was overwhelmed by mercy as an example, Sual later called Pual was knock off his ass and blinded, Paul did not choose Christ, Christ chose him.

[6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Quoted: Ephesians 1 1   Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2   Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3   Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4   According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5   Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6   To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7   In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8   Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9   Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10   That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11   In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12   That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. ... (RED emphasis mine, of course. ) I don't usually get involved in these threads, because (1) my doctrine conflicts with that of most of the Christians here, (2) I love this site & have met some wonderful people here, and (3) I don't want to cause (or exacerbate) strife here, especially amongst my Christian brethren. BUT... Because this topic is at the crux of my faith, I will add my humble two cents to the coffers. Notice, please: HIS choice, not ours... HE adopted us, not the other way around... HIS will, not ours... HIS good pleasure, not ours... AN INHERITANCE, not a reward... My belief (and I realize I am probably the only one here & will NOT be offended when you all beat me down) is that God chose His children before this world existed and that our ETERNAL fate is predestined (what we call the doctrine of "election" in my church).  I do not believe that everything is predestined to happen (what we call "absolute predestination").  God's children know Him, hear His voice, are drawn to Him and His church BECAUSE they are already eternally saved, not in order to become saved.  We obey God out of obedience because we are already going to Heaven (inheritance), not in order to get to heaven (reward).  The most beautiful thing about my doctrine IMHO is that I believe ALL Christians who have a sincere desire toward God, Christ, church, faith, etc. are children of God and heaven-bound, regardless of what name they or their church go by.  Their faith is the evidence of this.  I believe He has a people in every nation, kindred, tongue, & tribe upon the earth.  As far as "free will" in our actions, each child of God either obeys God or doesn't - but the rewards or punishments for those actions occur here, in life, in this world, and have no bearing on their eternal fate. That's just how I see it.  I find peace and comfort in my beliefs and, even though we see things very differently, I pray that every sincere believer here finds the same in theirs.

Agreed and concur completely.

I agree and disagree.

Paul experienced the persuit of God in his life. That is undeniable. I, too, am a beneficiary of God's prevenient grace, one that was chased by God's mercy and finally overtaken. This is why I say that if I should make heaven, I can claim not the slightest bit of credit for it, because God is the one who sought me, and saved me. All I did was surrender. I was called by the election of Grace as surely as any man ever has been.

But it remains within my power to rebel against God and to curse His name. I am only constrained by love for Him and a desire for fellowship with Him. I can, as Adam did, and as Solomon did, turn aside from the knowledge of God and persue sin. I still have that power, that ability to choose to side with the sons of disobedience and not act as a son of the Most High.

Every day I have the choice to honor God, or to rebel against His authority in my life.

A relationship with God is still a relationship. Just like a marriage, though it was designed to last and to be happy, if one member decides to forsake their covenant partner for a stranger, the relationship can be dissolved. Similiarly, I can drive God away by willfully sinning against Him.

Doing so would be stupid, but I CAN do it. Though my mind has been changed and my spirit is different thanks to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, my flesh is still with me, and I can still be tempted away from God's grace by the Adamic nature that I must contend with until God completes the good work begun within me.

Each day I have the choice: Will I draw closer to Him, or turn my back and persue the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life? Is He really my Lord and Master, or just my attempt at escaping judgement?

Each day I must make the choice. My will is still very much involved here, though my will has not saved me. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling....And that is what I am trying to do. If my salvation was absolute, completely independent of my own actions, then how could I, as Paul wrote, fall short of the grace of God? John wrote "that we might not sin, but if we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father."

God's grace is not a coverup for sin. It IS the power of God working in our lives to make us able to live up to the comission, "Be ye holy, as I Am Holy." God has given us the power to live life on His level. Salvation is a process, not an event in a person's life. It begins on the day we repent, and if we walk in truth, it will continue all of our lives.

Quoted: It is a difficult concept to grasp, but once grasped it makes a lot of sense. Absolute free will is a totally different thing than what we normally think of as free will.

Not really.  My point is that "absolute free will" is not a practical definition.  It makes no sense to debate it because clearly no mortal has it.

You can NOT out sin grace, where sin abounds GRACE SUPER ABOUNDS.

Romans 5-20 Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds, 21  that, even as Sin reigns in death, thus Grace also should be reigning through righteousness, for life eonian, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. CLV

Nothing can take you away from the Lord without Him willing it.

Romans 8-38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor messengers, nor sovereignties, nor the present, nor what is impending, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

It is impossile for the flesh to please God, God is spirit and flesh is enmity against it, only through spirit and faith can one please God.



Romans -8-[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Quoted: Quoted: It is a difficult concept to grasp, but once grasped it makes a lot of sense. Absolute free will is a totally different thing than what we normally think of as free will. Not really.  My point is that "absolute free will" is not a practical definition.  It makes no sense to debate it because clearly no mortal has it.

I might not be following you here. Are you saying that because absolute free will is not within the realm of man's possibility that we shouldn't discuss it within the context of humanity, or that because man does not posess absolute free will that he does not posess free will at all?

Quoted: You can NOT out sin grace, where sin abounds GRACE SUPER ABOUNDS. Nothing can take you away from the Lord without Him willing it. It is impossile for the flesh to please God, God is spirit and flesh is enmity against it, only through spirit and faith can one please God.

No earthly or heavenly power can seperate us from the love of God, but WE can do it OURSELVES:

"3And this we will[1] do if God permits.
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6if they fall away,[2] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."

Hebrews 6

How many times does Jesus say that "many" will come to Him in that day and say "Didn't we eat and drink in Your presence? Didn't we cast out demons in your name?" And He says depart for I never knew you?

Faith is made perfect by works, as faith without works is dead. Thus we are required to OBEY once we have confessed, for "He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy. "

No external power can seperate us from God. But just as Adam did, we have the power to seperate OURSELVES from God:

" 14Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God..."

Hebrews 12

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It is a difficult concept to grasp, but once grasped it makes a lot of sense. Absolute free will is a totally different thing than what we normally think of as free will. Not really.  My point is that "absolute free will" is not a practical definition.  It makes no sense to debate it because clearly no mortal has it. I might not be following you here. Are you saying that because absolute free will is not within the realm of man's possibility that we shouldn't discuss it within the context of humanity, or that because man does not posess absolute free will that he does not posess free will at all?

The former.  Man absolutely does have free will, just not absolute free will, which is an abstract concept irrelevant to the subject of humans.

At a Bible study one time I asked, "Why does only God take credit for the 'good' things?"

Example:  If I am a gifted painist, then I must have received this gift from God.  If I am a drug addict, I must have walked away from God's way.

Comments???

That was many years ago, and now I tend to believe that God has given us free will, probably the greatest gift of all, and we have totally abused it.  Why God does not come down and flood us out again just amazes me.

Lablover

Quoted: ...Why God does not come down and flood us out again just amazes me. Lablover

Because He promised He wouldn't & He cannot lie!  

Genesis 9 8   And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9   And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10   And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 11   And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. 12   And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13   I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. 14   And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: 15   And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16   And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. 17   And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

Fire, on the other hand...

Quoted: At a Bible study one time I asked, "Why does only God take credit for the 'good' things?" Example:  If I am a gifted painist, then I must have received this gift from God.  If I am a drug addict, I must have walked away from God's way. Comments???

A statement of God's character:

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Another reinforcement of who the good stuff comes from, and who the bad stuff comes from:

Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Quoted: At a Bible study one time I asked, "Why does only God take credit for the 'good' things?" Example:  If I am a gifted painist, then I must have received this gift from God.  If I am a drug addict, I must have walked away from God's way. Comments??? Lablover

It's not a matter of taking credit...being a pianist was a gift from Him, that you CHOSE to cultivate. He allowed it.

Drug addict......you turned away from His will.

Simple as that, basically.

Quoted: At a Bible study one time I asked, "Why does only God take credit for the 'good' things?" Example:  If I am a gifted painist, then I must have received this gift from God.  If I am a drug addict, I must have walked away from God's way. Comments??? That was many years ago, and now I tend to believe that God has given us free will, probably the greatest gift of all, and we have totally abused it.  Why God does not come down and flood us out again just amazes me. Lablover

I wouldn't say God takes credit for your talent.  God blesses every person with certain aptitudes.  Some people achieve great things with relatively modest aptitudes, others squander great aptitudes.  It is for this reason that it is perfectly right and just for God to pass judgement upon us.

I've always thought of the relationship between God and man as similar to the relationship between a coach and an athlete.  A good coach isn't concerned with whether or not his players enjoy the game, his primary interest is that they become winners.  In the same way, God is not so much interested in us enjoying this life, his primary interest is that we prepare ourselves in this life for the true happiness of the next.

Kind of simplistic, but IIRC St. Paul used a similar metaphor.

Some interesting points of view with good explanations.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It is a difficult concept to grasp, but once grasped it makes a lot of sense. Absolute free will is a totally different thing than what we normally think of as free will. Not really.  My point is that "absolute free will" is not a practical definition.  It makes no sense to debate it because clearly no mortal has it. I might not be following you here. Are you saying that because absolute free will is not within the realm of man's possibility that we shouldn't discuss it within the context of humanity, or that because man does not posess absolute free will that he does not posess free will at all? The former.  Man absolutely does have free will, just not absolute free will, which is an abstract concept irrelevant to the subject of humans.

K. We don't have a disagreement at all.