Quoted: Quoted: Is it a problem to shoot 55 grain rounds out of a 1/7 barrel?  Does it hurt accuracy much, or do damage to the barrel rifling???? No problems whatsoever.

Thanks for the reply-and the course review.

Was there anyone using a rifle with A2 irons?

Quoted: Quoted: Was there anyone using a rifle with A2 irons? There were quite a few, actually.

How did they do?

I'm exclusively a HP shooter, but I'm thinking it would be fun to do one of these "high speed, low drag" schools.  Even maybe 1944 style, with my Garand.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Was there anyone using a rifle with A2 irons? There were quite a few, actually. How did they do?

The rifle course is the second hardest at Front Sight.  The first hardest is the Combat Master Prep course.

The most impressive shooter I have seen at the rifle course was a member of a California LEO's SWAT team.  He ran the course with a 14.5" M4 (Select fire) and irons (A2 standard).

He won the Mano-a-mano course and made Distinguished Graduate (only about one student every two classes gets DG) without effort against people with high end optics.  This includes 3 perfect shots from 200 meters.

So, its do-able.

http://www.tftt.com/picture-tx_rifles.jpg

Sorry champ, but the place to train is the Tactical Firearms Training Team with Max..  Talk about highly motivating.

Quoted: www.tftt.com/picture-tx_rifles.jpg Sorry champ, but the place to train is the Tactical Firearms Training Team with Max..  Talk about highly motivating.

Yeah, but not.  I have designed three counter-terrorist training programs and run dozens of them myself.

I've run their courses and knew Gunnery Sergeant Bunker before he got involved there.

Their tactical rifle and two man team courses are good, but not at the same level.  Sorry.

Lots of unnecessary yelling, boot campness, and too many people who have seen "Full Metal Jacket" just a few too many times.

Others may prefer that sort of thing.  I don't know.

I would kind of hestitate to train with someone whos reputation
is unknown. Seems that you didn't even get a curriculum vitae of your
trainer or did I get something wrong?

Some German shooters went to Front Sight and basically described it as
"great trigger time"- but without too much emphasis on mindset or tactics.
The pistol techniques they described seemed kind of stuck in the late 80's
(Weaver all the way, little movement, etc.) with teaching concepts even older.
Even tough there were 80% Ar15 system carbines in the class, the "practical rifle"
training seemed more like Jeff Coopers "270- general rifle" training with alot of
empasis on positions, sling use and longer distances, not a class tailored to the
Ar15/M16 system and CQB (what Clint Smith calls "urban carbine").
Maybe their trainer's approach was different than your's- but who knows whom
he is going to train under?

Moreover, training outfits that require four days of training prior to even
introducing force on force training, make me a bit wary (seems like the martial
art scene where you have to be "2nd master of enlightment" before you can
defend yourself). Such training is quite expensive no matter whom you choose,
and since almost every review of classes held by Pat Rogers or Jeff Gonzales
has been VERY favourable, and they are considered the leading authorities when
it comes to the Ar15/M4 system, one might as well start with the best!
There is no sense in going to Obi Wan when you can get Yoda!

Quoted: I would kind of hestitate to train with someone whos reputation is unknown. Seems that you didn't even get a curriculum vitae of your trainer or did I get something wrong?

They all give their backgrounds at the beginning of the course.  Every rifle class I have taken has at least two former Marine Marksmanship Instructors on the range, one of whom is rangemaster.  These are some of the best tactical rifle classes I've taken.  I have designed a few myself and taken MANY rifle classes all over the world.

Some German shooters went to Front Sight and basically described it as "great trigger time"- but without too much emphasis on mindset or tactics.

I suspect that they weren't taking the advanced classes then, like advanced practical rifle, which focus exclusively on tactics, or the urban tactical M16 class, or the team tactics class, or the tactical scenarios class (2 days of nothing but team and force on force scenerios), or the tactical scenarios (night) class.  It also sounds like they have been skipping the lectures.

Practical rifle is the entry level course designed to get you to the point where they trust you on a hot range.

The pistol techniques they described seemed kind of stuck in the late 80's (Weaver all the way, little movement, etc.) with teaching concepts even older.

Not sure when they took the class, sounds like you haven't taken one and are relying on their views of it.  Since we don't know which they took, there isn't much I can really take away from their comments.

Front Sight is both broad and deep.  You can scratch the surface of many weapons or you can really dive deeply into two and five man team and small unit tactics in urban environments with pop-up targets, improvised shooting positions (we've put old cars out on the range to deploy from in the advanced tactical rifle class).  Again, as a former team leader for a counter-terrorist group I have been quite impressed with Front Sight's advanced classes and I'm tough to impress.  Disclaimer: I have a Silver membership but I derive no revenue from Front Sight.

Carbine training seemed more like Jeff Coopers "general rifle" training with alot of empasis on positions, sling use and longer distances, not a class tailored to the Ar15/M16 system and CQB (what Clint Smith calls "urban carbine").

Yeah, you're talking about the practical rifle class then, which is designed as a civilian, entry level for people who bring their own guns and don't necessarily know what they are doing or what to be using in terms of a weapons system.  There are plenty of classes much deeper than that at Front Sight.

Moreover, training outfits that require four days of training prior to even introducing Simunition training, make me a bit wary (seems like the martial art scene where you have to be "2nd master of enlightment" before you can defend yourself).

Given the ROUTINE ignornace with respect to basic weapons handling I see displayed on the range by entry or even returning students (I've never gotten through a basic class without being muzzled by someone in a rather serious way.  Many NDs after tactical reloads, emergency reloads or clearance drills tell me that we have people who have been training elsewhere who have muscle memoried "reload, FIRE" rather than "reload, ASSESS, FIRE/HOLD FIRE," I just don't want to be on a hot range with people who haven't passed the 4 day class on some basic level, thanks.  If there was some sort of required experience or credentialing process to get in, that would be fine, but there isn't at Front Sight (except a criminal background check now) so the credtialing process for the Advanced Practical Rifle class is to have someone pass the 4 day practical rifle class or the 2 day rifle skill builder class.

Such training is quite expensive

You get what you pay for, but yes, I do think Front Sight is at the high end of training in terms of price.  Then again, I haven't ever paid for a class since my sister pitched for a membership.

and since almost every review of classes held by Pat Rogers or Jeff Gonzales has been VERY favourable, one might as well start with the best!

I have great respect for classes designed by Rogers et al., but these are the people who keep NDing and capping the friendly targets on the popup range.  :)

Quoted: Lots of unnecessary yelling, boot campness, and too many people who have seen "Full Metal Jacket" just a few too many times.

Fuck that.

Quoted: Quoted: Lots of unnecessary yelling, boot campness, and too many people who have seen "Full Metal Jacket" just a few too many times. Fuck that.

Yeah, I guess a course at a time-share is a better idea.  Wouldn't want anybody to hurt your feelings...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Lots of unnecessary yelling, boot campness, and too many people who have seen "Full Metal Jacket" just a few too many times. Fuck that. Yeah, I guess a course at a time-share is a better idea.  Wouldn't want anybody to hurt your feelings...

Oh, I've been yelled at quite a bit in my lifetime, "Champ."  That doesn't bother me.  I just don't feel like paying for the experience, particularly when it has absolutely nothing to do with learning the material or the quality of the training.  Some people need to be screamed at to absorb things.  I'm not among them.  Your mileage may vary.

The quality of the courses at Front Sight is first rate.  I can take a date there for a basic 2 day course so my bride to be actually knows how to shoot, or I can get really down and dirty in the 4 day advanced classes.  In the end, that's all I care about.  I can do PT on my own time and for free.

Not sure what the "time share" comment means.  I don't own any property at Front Sight and so far as I know the people who do have property own it in fee simple.  There aren't any "time shares" and I don't think there is any more property to buy, so far as I know.

Quoted: Not sure what the "time share" comment means.

Fact is, that's the money-making side of front sight: big $$ memberships, real estate, etc...

hinking.gif But wow.  I didn't mean to ruffle anybody's feathers, I just posted a no-nonsense competitor that pumps out top-quality training as well.  Bottom line is, good training is good training.

And on a side note, I'm not exactly sure why the word <Champ> sounds like a 4-letter word to some, but whatever.  I actually think it's a pretty casual intro, I could have said "Hey you," but that takes too many letters.

So everybody please take a deep breath.  I'm sorry for thread-crapping on your report. hail.gif

Did the FS instructors recommend any particular type of sling setup?  e.g. 3-point, single point, or whatever?  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Lots of unnecessary yelling, boot campness, and too many people who have seen "Full Metal Jacket" just a few too many times. Fuck that. Yeah, I guess a course at a time-share is a better idea.  Wouldn't want anybody to hurt your feelings...

I spent four years at one of this country's military academies and six more as a comissioned officer.  I had my share of dickheads with a tough guy attitude already.  I'm not about to pay for some more of it.

I have no wanna-be baggage.  Do you?

brouhaha and Austrian:  Thanks for the thread and for the answers to my questions.

Quoted: ... Disclaimer/disclosure: My sister bought me a silver membership as a gift ...

I’ve gotta think I’m missing something, but as I read the Frontsight website, those go for $120,000!  

Can this be right?

Quoted: brouhaha and Austrian:  Thanks for the thread and for the answers to my questions. Quoted: ... Disclaimer/disclosure: My sister bought me a silver membership as a gift ... I’ve gotta think I’m missing something, but as I read the Frontsight website, those go for $120,000!   Can this be right?

I don't know what she paid.  When I asked she said "expensive."

Quoted: I spent four years at one of this country's military academies and six more as a comissioned officer.  I had my share of dickheads with a tough guy attitude already.  I'm not about to pay for some more of it. I have no wanna-be baggage.  Do you?

Thank you for your service.  I am no wanna-be, and I wouldn't like somebody yelling in my earhole at a paid course either, but that aint what happens at TFTT.  Austrian was the one who through out "lots of unnecessary yelling, boot campness," but I think that's BS.  The Devil Dogs at TFTT are highly squared away, not the type to get off by shouting at their trainees.

The only time I've heard of anything beyond respectful comm was in dealing with somebody who threw an ND.  And I'm thankful they take that shit seriously.

Frontsight threads always seem to bring out these kinds of negative comments for some reason. The sad part is they are just about exclusively from people who have never been to the place to get trained. I have been there many times, yes I do have a membership but it was an inexpensive one, and have had nothing but positive experiences and top quality training. I too went to a service academy and know the difference between professional training and hazing. There is a place for both but a firearms training facility that serves all walks of life should only include the former.

As well as providing excellent training, Frontsight is doing all of us a great service by promoting our RKBA. They educate people about safe firearms use and ownership. People from the media and policy makers are trained so that our side of the story is heard.

I'm sure there are plenty of great training facilities out there. I just don't understand why Frontsight always seems to bring out the kind of animosity it does. You never hear anyone slamming any other facility in the same way. Frontsight trains more than all of the others combined maybe there's a little envy involved. Who knows?

Quoted: Frontsight threads always seem to bring out these kinds of negative comments for some reason. The sad part is they are just about exclusively from people who have never been to the place to get trained. I have been there many times, yes I do have a membership but it was an inexpensive one, and have had nothing but positive experiences and top quality training. I too went to a service academy and know the difference between professional training and hazing. There is a place for both but a firearms training facility that serves all walks of life should only include the former. As well as providing excellent training, Frontsight is doing all of us a great service by promoting our RKBA. They educate people about safe firearms use and ownership. People from the media and policy makers are trained so that our side of the story is heard. I'm sure there are plenty of great training facilities out there. I just don't understand why Frontsight always seems to bring out the kind of animosity it does. You never hear anyone slamming any other facility in the same way. Frontsight trains more than all of the others combined maybe there's a little envy involved. Who knows?

Good wrap.  Bottom line is we're all fighting for the same thing.

You are all tards...

TFTT training is outstanding.

I cannot comment on Frontsite since I've never been there.

What I can say is that this thread now has the AIDS virus

tag

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: FWIW, I never had a problem shooting at 200 meters with my Comp ML2. First round hits aren't an issue if you do your part. I have the 4 MOA dot version. Our shoot-off at 223 was 1 hit to a 100 meter plate standing, one hit to a 200 meter plate standing to whatever you wanted (prone, usually). 2 round drills were common with aimpoint. I did it a few times myself. I'm not talking about just HITTING the target.  I'm talking about hitting a smaller section of the abdomen of the target.  I'll try to post a pic of the target tonight. I apologize for the delay in posting the target. Here 'tis. www.btammolabs.com/images/DSCN3361a.jpg

Here's the thing. The plates we shot at were pepper poppers. IOW, shaped like yours, only made of metal.

Understand, I'm not saying one is better than the other. Given what we were doing, the reassuring SMACK of lead on steel was a great motivator, and made it obvious who was getting hits and who wasn't.

I prefer shooting on steel, actually. I do better that way.