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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:25:15 AM EDT
[#1]
I personally owned 1 ford - a 1988 Mustang GT, and I've had (2) company Taurus's, and (1) company Crown Vic ALL (4) Fords had lot's of problems, the Tauruses being the worst - absolute money pits |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:25:43 AM EDT
[#2]
Uh...just a tad bit of difference between buying food and purchasing an automobile. If you bought a car everyday, three times a day then I'd agree - buy an array of vehicles. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:26:56 AM EDT
[#3]
From http://www.kbb.com
2000 model year 80,000 miles Standard Options Taurus Excellent- $2,900 Good- $2,545 Fair- $1,960 Camry Excellent- $5,025 Good- $4,545 Fair- $3,755 Accord Excellent- $6,775 Good- $6,220 Fair - $5,260 |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:28:40 AM EDT
[#4]
I would agree if Ford was saying "If you don't buy a Ford you're fired..." But they are saying "If you don't drive a Ford, you can park it across the street and walk a little further"... I'm no fan of Ford, and would never buy one...but in this case I don't see it being a huge deal... |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:30:04 AM EDT
[#5]
Is that another way of saying, "If companies want to sell their products to the richest market in the world (for now) then they shouldn't be upset when their customers are out of work because their products are made overseas."? |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:30:16 AM EDT
[#6]
Are we discussing profits, or JOBS? Is Ford pulling this bullshit to protect their workers, or their pocketbook? Please try again. AMERICANS in THIS COUNTRY have JOBS to build those "Japanese" vehicles. How is that a BAD thing if we're worried about AMERICAN JOBS? 
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:33:27 AM EDT
[#7]
Bullshit. He earns the money, he has the right to spend it as he sees fit, and if the Japs or the Germans or anyone else make a vehicle or a popsicle stick that is of more value to him than the American version, then he has every right to buy whatever he thinks best, and not be called un-American by a bunch of flag-wavers. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:35:33 AM EDT
[#8]
Gotta call bullshit on that. When some dickhead says, we're gonna make 1 million copies of this car, and these connectors here cost $2.00 that 2 million dollars. We can save $1million by using this cheaper connector. It will break in 4 yrs, but that's after the warranty. So, with those connectors we save $1million, now, let's do that with the other 400 connectors on the car. My patriotism does not include supporting a substandard product for the profitability of a manufacturer. Now, I know they have to cut costs, due to incredible health care costs, and incredible labor costs. Break the unions, pay them what they are worth. Toyota does not have to cut costs on the shit that holds their cars together. Would happily drive a ford, if they made one that drove like a BMW. TXL ETA from an earlier post. Just one more bit of anecdotal evidence to support my claim. I drive a Ford Escape XLT. Bought it new in 2002. It's a piece of shit. It's been pretty decent mechanically, but everything else has gone to hell... all the way down to the shitty adhesive that they use on the weather stripping that falls off the door frame. I will not own another Ford, and my grandfather is a retiree of the now closing Batavia plant. It's a garbage product, that wasn't worth the money that I am still paying for it. I should have bought the Xterra. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:35:57 AM EDT
[#9]
A Cleveland area UAW union hall went through a beef with Marine Corps reservists from 3/25. The reserve center in next to the union hall and the hall would let the Marines park on their lot during drill weekends since the hall wasn't used on weekends. The union President got miffed because he saw foreign cars and pro Bush stickers on the lot and told the Marines that they could no longer park in the union hall lot. It got embarrassing in the press and they rescinded.
UAW Red-Faced in Parking Tussle Marines allowed to park, pro-Bush or not. by Joseph Szczesny (2005-03-21) Every one, even public figures, occasionally says out loud things they instantly regret. Ron Gettelfinger, president of the United Auto Workers, discovered last week that like any other public official, he doesn't have a Teflon coating. In a recent fit of pique, he decided that Marine Corps reservists could no longer use the parking lot at UAW headquarters, which is near one of the Marine's armories. In the past, the Marines had been allowed to park in the lot, which is marked by a large saying foreign cars are not allowed. The no-foreign-cars sign has stood since the early 1980s but an exception was made for the Marines. Gettelfinger, however, had become agitated by the pro-Bush stickers on some of the Marines' vehicles. Like many other union leaders, Gettelfinger has made no secret of his distaste for Bush's economic polices and that has only risen in the wake of the 2004 election, as Republicans have renewed efforts to curb what remains of union influence. However, after issuing the new ban, Gettelfinger found himself caught in the middle of the kind of public relations nightmare that has undone lots of public figures. The ban quickly became a big story on Detroit television with some deft help by annoyed Marines. UAW headquarters was inundated with messages from appalled UAW members. "I made the wrong call on the parking issue," Gettelfinger said in statement issued by the union's public relations department. Gettelfinger also took the airwaves and apologized again during an appearance on Paul W. Smith's morning show on WJR Radio. The Marines, however, decided to let Gettelfinger squirm and said they had already made other parking arrangements for the reservists, many of whom were on their way to Iraq. "I'm glad he decided to change his decision," said Lt. Col. Joe Rutledge, commanding officer of the Marine Corps Reserve Center. But the apology came too late, he noted. "The decision's already been made that we're not going to park there," Rutledge said. "We've already made other arrangements to park elsewhere." |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:36:21 AM EDT
[#10]
Does Ford certify that every part on their cars was made in America? I don't know, just asking (I drive a Chevy). |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:37:13 AM EDT
[#11]
Figure up the anual cost per household for food and compare it to the anual cost per household for an automobile. Both are substantial, I'll bet. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:38:28 AM EDT
[#12]
SubnetMask, between work, relatives, and neighbors, I maintain close to 40 cars, so I have too much experience with this topic. You need more experience with this topic before you start insulting people. Admittedly we're hard on vehicles at work, start most of them 25 or more times per day, drive over curbs, leave them running for hours a day in the summer while not being driven, etc., but I don't think we've made it to 30k miles on any of the US made vehicles we've bought in the past five years. A pair of Crown Vics we had made it to 150k, but I think they were made in 1990. The Crown Vic we bought after that had constant transmission problems, and I sold it because it was taking more time than it was worth to try to get the local dealer to fix it. Last week I sold a Ford F150 with 22k miles on it, because it had more problems than I could afford time to pay an employee to beg the dealer to fix. I want to buy American, but I just can't afford the labor involved with getting all of the problems fixed nor afford the money to buy spare vehicles. It wasn't that long ago that every single American made car we had we sitting disabled in the parking lot needing repairs or at the dealership waiting to be repaired.z |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:40:24 AM EDT
[#13]
Private sector jobs are a function of a free market economy. If your company doesn't make a product that is worth the price that they are asking for it, then the market will eventually stop buying the product and you will be out of a job. Even a union can't distort that truth. Pretty simple equation. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:41:00 AM EDT
[#14]
But, but- you're using FACTS in your argument. NO FAIR! 
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:42:35 AM EDT
[#15]
And does freedom have to do with this? Ford doesn't control what it's employees buy, they can still drive anything they want, they just have to park at a different parking lot. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:44:48 AM EDT
[#16]
 OK...buying three meals a day is equal to buying a vehicle once every few years. 
What's so difficult about this concept? You don't like the quality? You want to spend your money on something else? By all means, feel free to do so... and park the damn thing off property. What a crybaby uproar over a little walk across the street. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:46:07 AM EDT
[#17]
Honda is opening plants in America and they are creating quality products at a lower price. Ford is closing plants in America, moving production overseas and making a low quality product at a higher price. Wrapping the flag around a turd doesn't change the fact that it's a turd. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:48:48 AM EDT
[#18]
Damn, I finally agree with you! |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:49:09 AM EDT
[#19]
Amen. You WERE agreeing with me, right?
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:50:29 AM EDT
[#20]
What the heck do you guys do to your vehicles?
I had a 1988 Ford Aerostar that I drove for 12 years, had 140,000 miles on it when I sold it. The only thing I can remember that went wrong was I had to have the transmission repaired at 120,000 miles. My father had a 1991 Ford Taurus, and it lasted until 2 years ago, 100,000+ miles on it. I now drive a 2000 Ford Ranger that has over 75,000 miles on it, and the only thing I have had to fix was a $14 speed sensor. It still has the original cables, headlights, etc, the only thing replaced beside the speed sensor was the battery. My father's 2003 F150 is running well, only thing that happened to it was the passenger side auto door lock stopped working, the dealership fixed it up in no time. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:52:06 AM EDT
[#21]
Oh, so now it's not about jobs anymore, or profits, either. It's about walking across the street. C'mon, Airborne. Stay on target, for Pete's sake! If Ford wants to ban non-Ford cars from their lot, fine. Their property. It's mind-bendingly STUPID, but not illegal. No one here has claimed that it is or should be. But please spare my the melodrama about how it's going to help the poor oppressed workers against the Yellow Threat.  ETA: I bought a brand-new Explorer XLT in 1998. In the first year, it had FOUR recalls. My next vehicle will be a Toyota. Period. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:52:41 AM EDT
[#22]
It's subtle compulsion. "Drive Ford or we'll make your life harder. Maybe vandalize your car."
Why should these people have to support the company with their dollars? You pay a man to put in two rivets on a door, day in, day out. He gives his labor, you give him his dollar. What he does with that dollar is his business. People should take pride in what they are manufacturing. The FACT that many employees don't is quite telling. And in the end, all this looks like is a bandaid to a solution that would involve growing some cajones, nixing the union, and building a decent product. FMC needs to look long and hard at itself and not piss on the people that put in the hours on the floor or in the cubicles. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:53:49 AM EDT
[#23]
Certainly! 
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:54:58 AM EDT
[#24]
Now I have to rethink my whole opinion.  j/k |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:56:17 AM EDT
[#25]
Except the fact that the Camry and the Accord start out costing $5-8K MORE than the Taurus. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:01:12 AM EDT
[#26]
Many "imports" are made here in the US with American labor. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:05:21 AM EDT
[#27]
42K for a V-8 Explorer...
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:06:25 AM EDT
[#28]
"Buy AMERICAN, when you're hungry pour sauce on your import." Bullshit. Ford makes cars in Mexico and Canada. GM makes most of its models in Canada. Hondas are built in Ohio. Toyotas are made in California, Nissans are made in Tennessee. Doesn't Mitsubishi have a plant somewhere in the midwest?
"The profits go back to Japan." Bullshit. The profits go to the stockholders (whatever nationality they may be) and back into the company for improvemant, R&D, etc. I'll buy the best made vehicle, thank you very much. My wife drives an Accord. No issues with it whatsoever. Buy American no matter what? Great idea, reward mediocrity! Maybe we can get a national "Buy American no matter what" campaign going. That way we can all eventually spend $50,000 on a car that won't last a year. Where would the incentive to build a competitive product be? Buying American when the product is inferior only rewards inferiority, and it basically admits that American products can't compete in the global market. If Ford made reliable cars, they wouldn't be in this mess. Neither would GM. Sincerly, Someone who drives a 2004 F-150 that has been in the shop numerous times for factory defects. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:06:42 AM EDT
[#29]
Comapny profits do two things: 1. Provide the company with more capital to expand operations. 2. Generate wealth for investors. Personally, if a company is creating jobs in the US and making a superior product at a lower price, then higher profits (by means of higher sales) is going to encourage that company to expand operations in the US. Generating wealth for investors is going to encourage them to support the company's actions while attracting new investors which will provide the company with even more capital to expand operations further. If Japanese investors are getting rich by creating jobs in the US and building low, cost high quality products then so be it. It's better than rewarding American investors who are cutting American jobs and building a high cost, low quality product. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:07:09 AM EDT
[#30]
From autos.msn.com .........................................Taurus SE...............Accord LX Sedan..........Camry LE Base Retail Price (MSRP)......$18,935.....................$18,540...................$20,388 Base Invoice Price................$17,232....................$16,495....................$17,849 Kelley Blue Book Price..........$6,400 - $7,175...$10,450 - $11,300...$9,325 - $10,050 Next? |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:10:38 AM EDT
[#31]
A two year old vehicle should not require anything but oil changes and tire rotations. Thats piss poor performance even for a Ford. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:13:00 AM EDT
[#32]
wake the fawk up dude... Buying a Ford doesn't make someone a patriot, it just makes them a moron. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:13:01 AM EDT
[#33]
Honda Accord
Made in Marysville, Ohio, UNITED STATES Built by AMERICAN workers who get paid in AMERICAN dollars. Profits that do not go back into the company as retained earnings go to the stockholders as dividends, including myself, an AMERICAN. I make money from people buying Hondas. The only money that "goes to Japan" is the salary of the employees who work in Japan. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:15:16 AM EDT
[#34]
My attitude towards the "domestic" vs "import" is simple.
What companies have created jobs and contributed more to the U.S. economy in the last decade? Topyota, Honda, Nissan, etc. What companies have slashed jobs and contributed to the Mexican and Chinese economies in the last decade? Ford, GM and Chrysler If anyone is worried about where profits are "going", they can buy some stock in the companies. Profits only "go to Japan" if that's where the stock owners are. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:15:39 AM EDT
[#35]
You got that right, brother. The one and only Ford that I've owned was a new 1993 F-150. Within a couple of weeks of driving it off the lot, the paint began peeling on the roof of the cab and the front of the hood. I took it back to Ford and they hem-hawed around and then said that they would NOT repaint the vehicle. I sold the truck shortly after that. To be fair, our Jeep Grand Cherokee (1997) was a POS as well. Lots of electrical and AC problems with it. I am still driving my 1994 Toyota pickup with 160000 miles on it and we bought a 2004 Kia Optima for the family car. Although it's too early to tell, it has had zero issues and we are at 36000 miles on it. Get rid of the overpaid union goons, make a quality product, and I will buy them all day long... |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:17:58 AM EDT
[#36]
Those of you blatantly disagreeing with 82ndAbn might want to try reading How Americans Can Buy American by Roger Simmermaker. It's a good book that discusses these types of economics in an easy to read format.
The author of that book breaks down your average purchase into 4 categories. They are rated in order of importance to the American economy. The four categories are: 1. American owned, American made. 2. American owned, Foreign made. 3. Foreign owned, American made. 4. Foreign owned, Foreign made. As you can see, he rates American owned: foreign made over foreign owned: American made. He does this because he states that the average manufacturing job is supported by 3.1 administration type jobs. Adding to the importance is where the final profits go. He thinks that it is fundamentally more important that the final profits go to the American economy. Of course my little summation leaves a lot to be desired, but give the book a try. It also has comprehensive listings of American owned products. And it gives you information about things like buying underwear. Say you go to the store and you want a 6 pack of briefs. Well, you have Fruit of the Loom and Hanes to choose from. Neither one is American made, so which do you choose? Assuming you have no personal preference as to the fit of either one. Well, Fruit of the Loom reorganized a few years ago and moved its headquarters to the Cayman Islands (I think that's where they went) to avoid US taxes. Hanes is still a US company. So I buy the Hanes. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:18:17 AM EDT
[#37]
The point that is missed here is that Americans love winners. FORD and GM are losers right now and that why people are down on them. If they build a quality product people will buy them. But the upper echelon is still entrenched with losers that have been there for years. Until they and the UAW are gone, FORD and GM will be noncompetitive.
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:20:16 AM EDT
[#38]
And they make cars most american's don't want to buy. Next question? |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:20:20 AM EDT
[#39]
Generalization - my 16 year old Merc Grand Marquis will go strong another 10 years. Depends on the model. Some are durable, some aren't. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:22:09 AM EDT
[#40]
How ridiculous this debate is. This silly shit can be boiled down to a very simple formula:
Ford makes great cars for a fair price and they will have great success. If they FAIL in that endeavor, then they will die as a corporation. Right now, they and GM are making shitty products when compared to the competition and they are both in trouble. That is capitalism at its finest. Since Ford as an entity is an entity of some diverse groups including management and union workers, then they ALL must work together to keep Ford afloat. If they don't...she goes down. Finally, we as consumers owe NOTHING to Ford nor the employees. Read my above paragraph for an explanation. Only the Ford employees can make that company survive. To suggest othewise...to imply that I should buy a Ford (I own a Ford truck BTW...) to help them out is ridiculous on its face. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:23:57 AM EDT
[#41]
Not even two years old. Built in Aug 04, bought it in Nov 04. BTW- My first car was a Chevy Cavalier. Had so many problems the rental car agency guy knew me by name. When I complained to the manager of the dealership, he told me that the Cavalier was an enrty level vehicle, and I shouldn't expect too much. Shit you not. You think I would've learned about "buying American." |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:25:08 AM EDT
[#42]
Wow, this is the third time I've seen you shift your argument. First it was, support American jobs. Then you shifted to supporting American companies to keep profits here. Now you're calling Zaphod a crybaby. I guess if you can't win with facts, sling mud. 
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:27:02 AM EDT
[#43]
This topic cracks me up. It reminds me of my old boss. He was always saying "Nissan is the best, your old Jeep is a piece of shit". Then one day sometime in 2003 we took his trusty 2000 Nissan Pathfinder to lunch. At several stops at stop lights in was making a weird loud clucking sound. I'm like WTF is that, he's like "It must have been something in the street". Uhhhh sure yeah ok, anyway we get to Chili's and got stranded there, his fucking transmission fell apart.
When his sister inlaw picked us up in her Tahoe I started telling him, maybe we should have taken my 1989 Jeep Grand Wagoneer to lunch, at least we would have made it back to work. Just for the record, my Jeep is a 1989, it has 172k on it and the motor and tranny have never been rebuilt. It doesn't burn oil or smoke at all either. I'm sure some of the "Japan is better crowd" will refuse to believe it, but that's the way it is. I'll never drive anything with a foreign name plate on it.  And for the Ford employees that are losing their jobs that don't buy Fords, what the fuck do they expect? That some how someone else is going to buy the product that they make? They should lose their jobs. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:30:30 AM EDT
[#44]
Pointing out a clear lack of critical thinking ability is not an insult, it's an observation. You're guilty of it as well. You have absolutely no idea how many cars I've had or maintained - for myself or others - yet you've already concluded that I have little experience with regard to the subject matter. You've made an unsubstantiated claim, and this is what bothers me about these discussions. It's frustrating.
None of this can be used as proof of reliability. It's anectodal, and lacks essential details (a common problem with this type of evidence). The problem with this, is that for every woeful tail of shoddy craftsmanship you present, another can refute it with an example of near maintenence-free bliss. The discussions then become a contest between two people competing to see who can come up with more examples that support their conclusion. In fact, I was almost tempted to do the same thing by countering your examples, but it won't accomplish anything. I'm not saying that domestic reliability is any better than an import. I actually don't know. What I am saying is that arguments in favor of either are not proper arguments and are riddled with common logical fallacies. It frustrates me, because I really would like to read well-reasoned arguments from domestic and import proponents. It's a shame that I can't find any, despite being part of what is arguably one of the greatest communication revolutions the world has ever seen - the internet. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:32:06 AM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:32:31 AM EDT
[#46]
Lots of Americans are invested in the Jap auto makers too. You can buy stock in toyota. money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?pg=qu&sid=4938&symb=TM&time=5yr&uf=0 Good cars, jobs for americans, and investment money in my pocket. What's not to like? |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:32:53 AM EDT
[#47]
You mean the Nissans built 2 hours north of me in Smyrna, TN, by AMERICAN workers? Or the Fords/GM/Dodges built in MEXICO? Which one is employing Americans, again? A Japanese company building cars in America benefits American workers more than an American company building cars in Mexico. Of course, since they dont put up with UAW bullshit they are evil. Let's play a quick game of 'What If': What If Ford does pull off a turnaround and needs to re-expand capacity sometime in the future. Will it be done in the US, or Mexico, or China? You really dumb enough to believe that Ford wont go offshore, just because it is 'wrong' for America? |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:33:15 AM EDT
[#48]
When GM still had its Van Nuys Assembly plant(20 miles NW of Los Angeles, I remember it open with great fanfare and also when it closed), GM was the butt of a lot of jokes when the local TV news crew decided to do a story on how many GM workers drive GM cars versus their competition. Many of them were foreign cars(ie not USA based Big 3).
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:36:13 AM EDT
[#49]
Shouldn't that second line say " I make garbage and the rest of Ford employees know it" ????? Just wondering? 
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:40:17 AM EDT
[#50]
You are saying that Ford/GM/Dodge building cars in Mexico or Canada with foreign labor is better for American workers, than Nissan building cars in America using American labor? Are you really that damned dense? |
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