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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:27:17 AM EDT
[#1]
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As long as I can fill out a form and they send me the stamp I don't care. My local sheriff hates liberals. Your sheriff won't even have a say in the process anymore. 
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:58:43 AM EDT
[#2]
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I especially hate that those nutless assholes can just change the rules. No law, no congressional oversight, nothing. There is a law which authorizes these actions. 26 USC 5822 (which deals with making a firearm which is regulated by the NFA) authorizes the "Secretary" to prescribe forms and regulations three times. As is usually the case, Congress has written a statute which exercises authority which it doesn't have and then delegates that authority to the Executive branch. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:12:02 AM EDT
[#3]
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Ccw already has fingerprints on file Why can't they just have a ccw ID for those that have it Fbho Iowa doesn't require finger prints for a concealed carry permit. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:18:17 AM EDT
[#4]
The Feds are never willingly going to make firearm ownership easier.
Never. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:21:32 AM EDT
[#5]
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why would 41F keep you from owning NFA stuff? it adds fingerprints to the trust option and removes the CLEO signoff from the individual option. I prefer the individual ownership option, so 41f is a plus for me. it just trims off the CLEO signoff it was a non-issue for me anyway, my local CLEO would sign off on a nuclear weapon fingerprints and photos wow, what an insurmountable barrier to owning an NFA item that's like 20 minutes out of your life that you'll never get back again. WHY ARE YOU GUYS ALWAYS SO PESSIMISTIC AND DRAMATIC ABOUT STUFF? EVERYDAY IS DOOMSDAY ON ARF GD Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Well...looks like my dream of obtaining some NFA toys won't happen. Because by the time I can move to free state 41F will have been in effect for a few months. why would 41F keep you from owning NFA stuff? it adds fingerprints to the trust option and removes the CLEO signoff from the individual option. I prefer the individual ownership option, so 41f is a plus for me. it just trims off the CLEO signoff it was a non-issue for me anyway, my local CLEO would sign off on a nuclear weapon fingerprints and photos wow, what an insurmountable barrier to owning an NFA item that's like 20 minutes out of your life that you'll never get back again. WHY ARE YOU GUYS ALWAYS SO PESSIMISTIC AND DRAMATIC ABOUT STUFF? EVERYDAY IS DOOMSDAY ON ARF GD I am just disappointed the Eforms will be gone that really sucks. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:22:59 AM EDT
[#6]
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That is a really shitty attitude. I never bought m855 or 7n6 ammo but is sure as hell gave a shit and contacted my reps. We won on m855 and lost on 7n6. If we all adopted your attitude we would be in the same boat as Australia is in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Makes no difference to me. I don't own any NFA stuff and can't afford to. That is a really shitty attitude. I never bought m855 or 7n6 ammo but is sure as hell gave a shit and contacted my reps. We won on m855 and lost on 7n6. If we all adopted your attitude we would be in the same boat as Australia is in. Whats funny is he has the NRA eagle, looks like he really stands up for gun owners rights. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:23:03 AM EDT
[#7]
Everything about the NFA is antiquated because it came out of the 1930s. There's no point to most of it and for some reason the ATF doesn't feel like adapting to the 21st century.
What's the point of CLEO signatures? It used to allow local authorities to restrict NFA items from known troublemakers. Today it's outdated and the damn CLEO notification thing is a stupid vestige of it. Why the need for paper photos/prints? We now have vast, digital databases of this stuff. There's no need for paper anything when we could be using digital! I'd really like them to just use the DMV and CCW systems for this info so I don't have to keep sending it in all the time. Why does it take 6+ months for this to go through? I'd love to know just what kind of background checks are being ran and what's different from a standard NICS. I'm guessing not much and this all could be reformed to a 5 minute phone call and a typed in drivers license number. 
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:24:45 AM EDT
[#8]
I haven't done a eform....
Maybe Ill do one just to say I did it 
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:29:20 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Makes no difference to me. I don't own any NFA stuff and can't afford to. 
NFA doesn't cost any more than regular firearms? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:46:16 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Everything about the NFA is antiquated because it came out of the 1930s. There's no point to most of it and for some reason the ATF doesn't feel like adapting to the 21st century. What's the point of CLEO signatures? It used to allow local authorities to restrict NFA items from known troublemakers. Today it's outdated and the damn CLEO notification thing is a stupid vestige of it. Why the need for paper photos/prints? We now have vast, digital databases of this stuff. There's no need for paper anything when we could be using digital! I'd really like them to just use the DMV and CCW systems for this info so I don't have to keep sending it in all the time. Why does it take 6+ months for this to go through? I'd love to know just what kind of background checks are being ran and what's different from a standard NICS. I'm guessing not much and this all could be reformed to a 5 minute phone call and a typed in drivers license number.
The reason for all of the above is because the law requires it. It's as simple as that. If you want the process to get easier to reflect our time, or get rid of it entirely, then we have to put pressure on the lawmakers. The process takes so long because the NFA branch is swamped with applications and transfer forms. You have to wait your turn. Everyone was singing the praises of the e form system when eform 1s and 4s were taking less than a month to get approved. Something us individual filers could not use. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:51:56 AM EDT
[#11]
I fail to see why anyone who could file as a trust would do so as an individual.
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:14:25 AM EDT
[#12]
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NFA doesn't cost any more than regular firearms? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Makes no difference to me. I don't own any NFA stuff and can't afford to.
NFA doesn't cost any more than regular firearms? If I was on a tight budget I absolutely would not buy any NFA stuff I would stick to buying the basic food groups of firearms first once I had "one of everything", then maybe I'd buy a suppressor |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:26:52 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No way to upload fingerprints and photos at the moment... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't understand all the changes to be honest. I just thought if you had a trust then you have to send in fingerprint cards after July for all the people on it. Now the e-forms is going....? No way to upload fingerprints and photos at the moment... Which is stunningly pathetic. My bank was able to work my iPhone's fingerprint recognition into its security features within a week of the scanner showing up on the new devices. They can take an uploaded picture of a check and deposit it into my account from my phone and yet the federal government is unable to accept a scanned document and pictures. If it's not malfeasance it is stunning incompetence. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:30:59 AM EDT
[#14]
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You mean wait until July 13th, 2016? eForms will cease to be of any use to non-FFLs on that day. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Wait until Trusts are somehow forced out... You mean wait until July 13th, 2016? eForms will cease to be of any use to non-FFLs on that day. Whoa down you are going too FAST...........why are they going the way of the dodo bird? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:35:52 AM EDT
[#15]
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Cruz or Trump should get on the air and said if they are president that all NFA times will be 1 month or less. If Cruz did it, you idiots still wouldn't vote for him. The strongest 2A candidate since Teddy Roosevelt, and the fuckin Trumpbots still can't pull their heads out of their asses long enough to see it. If Trump said it, well, that's one more thing on the list of shit he's promised that will never happen. And either way, the media gets to hound them about wanting to hand out machineguns to schoolchildren. So, please, let's just not. Hey, you know what would make a lot of sense? We elect Cruz, who actually knows shit from shine-ola about constitutional law, and he gets to appoint some federal judges who feel the same way. Then we just let any one of the currently pending challenges to the NFA do their thing. We'll all have auto sears by 2020. But, no, that's too easy, so we won't vote, we'll fuck it all up, and then waste a bunch of time here bitching about it. SMDH |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:38:00 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If Cruz did it, you idiots still wouldn't vote for him. The strongest 2A candidate since Teddy Roosevelt, and the fuckin Trumpbots still can't pull their heads out of their asses long enough to see it. If Trump said it, well, that's one more thing on the list of shit he's promised that will never happen. And either way, the media gets to hound them about wanting to hand out machineguns to schoolchildren. So, please, let's just not. Hey, you know what would make a lot of sense? We elect Cruz, who actually knows shit from shine-ola about constitutional law, and he gets to appoint some federal judges who feel the same way. Then we just let any one of the currently pending challenges to the NFA do their thing. We'll all have auto sears by 2020. But, no, that's too easy, so we won't vote, we'll fuck it all up, and then waste a bunch of time here bitching about it. SMDH Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Cruz or Trump should get on the air and said if they are president that all NFA times will be 1 month or less. If Cruz did it, you idiots still wouldn't vote for him. The strongest 2A candidate since Teddy Roosevelt, and the fuckin Trumpbots still can't pull their heads out of their asses long enough to see it. If Trump said it, well, that's one more thing on the list of shit he's promised that will never happen. And either way, the media gets to hound them about wanting to hand out machineguns to schoolchildren. So, please, let's just not. Hey, you know what would make a lot of sense? We elect Cruz, who actually knows shit from shine-ola about constitutional law, and he gets to appoint some federal judges who feel the same way. Then we just let any one of the currently pending challenges to the NFA do their thing. We'll all have auto sears by 2020. But, no, that's too easy, so we won't vote, we'll fuck it all up, and then waste a bunch of time here bitching about it. SMDH  |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:38:43 AM EDT
[#17]
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Whoa down you are going too FAST...........why are they going the way of the dodo bird? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Wait until Trusts are somehow forced out... You mean wait until July 13th, 2016? eForms will cease to be of any use to non-FFLs on that day. Whoa down you are going too FAST...........why are they going the way of the dodo bird? Check out the three links in the OP. TL;DR version - ATF will be requiring fingerprint cards and photographs for each and every Form 1 and Form 4 submission, every time, every form. You cannot file fingerprints and photographs online. Therefore, there is no further use for eForms 1 and 4, as no situation exists whereby you would be allowed to use it. eForms 1 & 4 go away permanently. eForm 3 sticks around (as does some of the other FFL only stuff). |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:39:28 AM EDT
[#18]
^^^^FUCK!!
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:41:07 AM EDT
[#19]
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Your sheriff won't even have a say in the process anymore. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
As long as I can fill out a form and they send me the stamp I don't care. My local sheriff hates liberals. Your sheriff won't even have a say in the process anymore. My sheriff didn't have a say in the process to begin with (although I heard he would sign before anyway).
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:41:28 AM EDT
[#20]
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I fail to see why anyone who could file as a trust would do so as an individual. All of my other guns are "individually owned". Why wouldn't I own NFA firearms as an individual? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:42:19 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If Cruz did it, you idiots still wouldn't vote for him. The strongest 2A candidate since Teddy Roosevelt, and the fuckin Trumpbots still can't pull their heads out of their asses long enough to see it. If Trump said it, well, that's one more thing on the list of shit he's promised that will never happen. And either way, the media gets to hound them about wanting to hand out machineguns to schoolchildren. So, please, let's just not. Hey, you know what would make a lot of sense? We elect Cruz, who actually knows shit from shine-ola about constitutional law, and he gets to appoint some federal judges who feel the same way. Then we just let any one of the currently pending challenges to the NFA do their thing. We'll all have auto sears by 2020. But, no, that's too easy, so we won't vote, we'll fuck it all up, and then waste a bunch of time here bitching about it. SMDH Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Cruz or Trump should get on the air and said if they are president that all NFA times will be 1 month or less. If Cruz did it, you idiots still wouldn't vote for him. The strongest 2A candidate since Teddy Roosevelt, and the fuckin Trumpbots still can't pull their heads out of their asses long enough to see it. If Trump said it, well, that's one more thing on the list of shit he's promised that will never happen. And either way, the media gets to hound them about wanting to hand out machineguns to schoolchildren. So, please, let's just not. Hey, you know what would make a lot of sense? We elect Cruz, who actually knows shit from shine-ola about constitutional law, and he gets to appoint some federal judges who feel the same way. Then we just let any one of the currently pending challenges to the NFA do their thing. We'll all have auto sears by 2020. But, no, that's too easy, so we won't vote, we'll fuck it all up, and then waste a bunch of time here bitching about it. SMDH Truth. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:42:30 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I fail to see why anyone who could file as a trust would do so as an individual. I fail to see why anyone who could file as an individual would file as a trust I refuse to pay an expert lawyer to set up a trust, and I'm not assigning a $25,000 gun to a piece of shit trust I made on quicken and I don't want to share my NFA stuff with anyone when I buy something as an individual, I download a form from ATF and spend 2 minutes filling it out it has simple stuff on it like my name and address and the serial number of the gun then the ATF checks the form line by line and approves it. there's no grey area, nothing that could be incorrect. even if you were a moron and fucked it all up, the ATF checks it over like the world will die if there is a period missing from the end of a sentence. but when you do a trust, it's YOUR trust. not the ATF's paperwork, it's yours. most people have never been in a lawsuit and they never have to pay a lawyer to represent them and they never work with the government so they are very casual about legal stuff and fucking around with the government But I work in heavy construction, have been in lawsuits and I work with government agencies every week. To me, downloading some piece of shit off the internet and then using it to make an NFA trust is crazy any kind of ambiguity or error could result in $1000s of legal bills and years of dicking back and forth with the ATF government employees have to cover their ass they do this by following rules to the letter but a lot of times they don't understand the rules and a lot of times the rules are self-contradictory, or outdated, or vague so you end up arguing with someone who doesn't know anything, doesn't care and won't budge because they are afraid of getting in trouble. if your trust is wrong, or just maybe the ATF guy just thinks it's wrong, YOU WILL NEVER WIN arguing with the government is like arguing with the computer on Logan's Run To summarize, unless a trust is written by an expert, I would not use it. If you want to use some gun shop trust, be my guest. Also, most of the "benefits" of using a trust are either imaginary or not of any use to me. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:45:03 AM EDT
[#23]
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You cannot file fingerprints and photographs online. Sure you can. And we should be organizing through our national groups (hello NRA) to push its inclusion. Upload a photo? Super easy. Digitize fingerprints? You can either scan the card (what do you think the ATF is gonna do with it) or you can go to a digital fingerprint scanning device. The Government uses them a lot. Hell, I bet a lot of LGS would buy one if it meant they could charge you $10 or $20 to scan your fingerprints for Form 1s. It's 2016 people. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:47:26 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All of my other guns are "individually owned". Why wouldn't I own NFA firearms as an individual? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I fail to see why anyone who could file as a trust would do so as an individual. All of my other guns are "individually owned". Why wouldn't I own NFA firearms as an individual? Estate management and allowing others to have access or possess one or more of your NFA firearms (spouse, child, etc). Assuming you would not let a prohibited person handle or have acces to "all of my other guns", the difference is that letting them have access to your individual possessed NFA devices is a crime, whereas letting them have access to your Title I guns is not. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:48:27 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If Cruz did it, you idiots still wouldn't vote for him. The strongest 2A candidate since Teddy Roosevelt, and the fuckin Trumpbots still can't pull their heads out of their asses long enough to see it. If Trump said it, well, that's one more thing on the list of shit he's promised that will never happen. And either way, the media gets to hound them about wanting to hand out machineguns to schoolchildren. So, please, let's just not. Hey, you know what would make a lot of sense? We elect Cruz, who actually knows shit from shine-ola about constitutional law, and he gets to appoint some federal judges who feel the same way. Then we just let any one of the currently pending challenges to the NFA do their thing. We'll all have auto sears by 2020. But, no, that's too easy, so we won't vote, we'll fuck it all up, and then waste a bunch of time here bitching about it. SMDH Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Cruz or Trump should get on the air and said if they are president that all NFA times will be 1 month or less. If Cruz did it, you idiots still wouldn't vote for him. The strongest 2A candidate since Teddy Roosevelt, and the fuckin Trumpbots still can't pull their heads out of their asses long enough to see it. If Trump said it, well, that's one more thing on the list of shit he's promised that will never happen. And either way, the media gets to hound them about wanting to hand out machineguns to schoolchildren. So, please, let's just not. Hey, you know what would make a lot of sense? We elect Cruz, who actually knows shit from shine-ola about constitutional law, and he gets to appoint some federal judges who feel the same way. Then we just let any one of the currently pending challenges to the NFA do their thing. We'll all have auto sears by 2020. But, no, that's too easy, so we won't vote, we'll fuck it all up, and then waste a bunch of time here bitching about it. SMDH Cruz has no chance of becoming president so what difference does it make? this country is ruled by centrist voters and they will never elect a hard right fundamentalist for president |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:51:35 AM EDT
[#26]
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Sure you can. And we should be organizing through our national groups (hello NRA) to push its inclusion. Upload a photo? Super easy. Digitize fingerprints? You can either scan the card (what do you think the ATF is gonna do with it) or you can go to a digital fingerprint scanning device. The Government uses them a lot. Hell, I bet a lot of LGS would buy one if it meant they could charge you $10 or $20 to scan your fingerprints for Form 1s. It's 2016 people. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You cannot file fingerprints and photographs online. Sure you can. And we should be organizing through our national groups (hello NRA) to push its inclusion. Upload a photo? Super easy. Digitize fingerprints? You can either scan the card (what do you think the ATF is gonna do with it) or you can go to a digital fingerprint scanning device. The Government uses them a lot. Hell, I bet a lot of LGS would buy one if it meant they could charge you $10 or $20 to scan your fingerprints for Form 1s. It's 2016 people. Perhaps I should go back to what I had in the OP. You cannot attach two FD-258 cards online. At least you cannot do so today. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:53:07 AM EDT
[#27]
In the age of the computer I have to get photos and fingerprints for EACH and EVERY NFA item I plan to purchase.
This is so fucking ridiculous that it amounts to an anti gun rule. How the fuck do I get multiple original fingerprint cards...........they have to do my finger print with each and every card with new ink!!?? This is unfuckingbelievable and STUPID. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:53:08 AM EDT
[#28]
I fear you are correct.
Let's talk briefly about the trusts. I remember wanting to do the $69 online trust but some members here believed getting one from a bonafide NFA trust lawyer for double the price is the way to do. Can we discuss pros and cons of the cheap vs expensive trusts? Basically, what does paying more "really" get you? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:57:29 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
this country is ruled by centrist voters and they will never elect a hard right fundamentalist for president GD told me that conservatives will stay home rather than vote for a "moderate" establishment R. They only want to vote for real conservatives. Now you tell me a real conservative has no chance. Well, which is it?! The gun community has been asking for a Cruz for two decades. Now you've got him, and you're desperately searching for some way to screw it up. QED |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:57:49 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In the age of the computer I have to get photos and fingerprints for EACH and EVERY NFA item I plan to purchase. This is so fucking ridiculous that it amounts to an anti gun rule. How the fuck do I get multiple original fingerprint cards...........they have to do my finger print with each and every card with new ink!!?? This is unfuckingbelievable and STUPID. In an ironic twist of fate, the one piece of documentation they won't be requiring each and every time is a copy of your trust documentation. That you'll only have to send in if something has changed. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:59:01 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Estate management and allowing others to have access or possess one or more of your NFA firearms (spouse, child, etc). Assuming you would not let a prohibited person handle or have acces to "all of my other guns", the difference is that letting them have access to your individual possessed NFA devices is a crime, whereas letting them have access to your Title I guns is not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I fail to see why anyone who could file as a trust would do so as an individual. All of my other guns are "individually owned". Why wouldn't I own NFA firearms as an individual? Estate management and allowing others to have access or possess one or more of your NFA firearms (spouse, child, etc). Assuming you would not let a prohibited person handle or have acces to "all of my other guns", the difference is that letting them have access to your individual possessed NFA devices is a crime, whereas letting them have access to your Title I guns is not. This is nonsense Nobody but the individual owner can USE the NFA weapon or suppressor. But please explain to me how this "access" thing works. Every month that goes by, this "access" thing gets more strident and more vague. You do not need to own a gun safe to have NFA stuff in your house, so how does the access thing actually work? back in the old days, using a trust for NFA was uncommon. Most people did not even know you could do it. If there was some big problem with individual ownership, you would have heard about it by now and it would be addressed in the NFA regs. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 11:59:46 AM EDT
[#32]
41F sucks but it's not the end of the world. CLEO signature would have been the real deal breaker for me.
Question though. I'm not familiar with the finger printing and photo requirements whatsoever. Is this something that a dealer could theoretically set themselves up to do at the counter or would you have to get finger printed and photographed at a government office? I have no idea what constitutes a valid photo or finger print submission. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:02:03 PM EDT
[#33]
i understand it.... its why i have efiled 3 form 1's in the last month..... and have multiple suppressors being processed. i am also planning to efile / form 1, approx 3 more guns before july... probably another ar-15, a 10/22, and a 870 ( to build a sbs).
the changes wont make much difference as to me buying suppressors...... i assume ill just have to take a new photo, and new set of prints to the suppressor shop, when i buy a new suppressor, and they add those to my trust when they send in the paperwork. its a HUGE deal though for my form 1's.... efiling a form 1 is awesome... super easy and it takes about 10 minutes...... done. i can efile a form 1 to sbr a rifle, faster than i can drive to my sherrif dept..... ill be sad when you cant e-file anymore. but, ill probably have everything efiled i ever plan to sbr by july anyway.... i will have at LEAST 5...possibly 6 firearms sbr'd, / sbs'd by july, which is more than enough for me... only exception will be... ( a sig mpx sbr, which has to wait another year or two before i can buy one... due to a promise i made my fiancie... i have to build my house, before i buy anymore guns. ) however, i have a gun part / ammo allowance of $200 a month.... im just using it on suppressors and sbring shit... 
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:06:27 PM EDT
[#34]
41f is horse shit and I'm tired of hearing from trust haters about how is such a good thing.
The only good part about 41 is that trustees can be added / removed any time you want without notifying atf. Guess how many photos / fingerprint cards are coming in with every trust? Yup, 1 of each. FBO, FEH, and FLL. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:08:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is nonsense Nobody but the individual owner can USE the NFA weapon or suppressor. But please explain to me how this "access" thing works. Every month that goes by, this "access" thing gets more strident and more vague. You do not need to own a gun safe to have NFA stuff in your house, so how does the access thing actually work? back in the old days, using a trust for NFA was uncommon. Most people did not even know you could do it. If there was some big problem with individual ownership, you would have heard about it by now and it would be addressed in the NFA regs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I fail to see why anyone who could file as a trust would do so as an individual. All of my other guns are "individually owned". Why wouldn't I own NFA firearms as an individual? Estate management and allowing others to have access or possess one or more of your NFA firearms (spouse, child, etc). Assuming you would not let a prohibited person handle or have acces to "all of my other guns", the difference is that letting them have access to your individual possessed NFA devices is a crime, whereas letting them have access to your Title I guns is not. This is nonsense Nobody but the individual owner can USE the NFA weapon or suppressor. But please explain to me how this "access" thing works. Every month that goes by, this "access" thing gets more strident and more vague. You do not need to own a gun safe to have NFA stuff in your house, so how does the access thing actually work? back in the old days, using a trust for NFA was uncommon. Most people did not even know you could do it. If there was some big problem with individual ownership, you would have heard about it by now and it would be addressed in the NFA regs. So you are saying that my brother that is on my trust can not be in possession of my NFA items that are on my trust and vice a versa? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:08:54 PM EDT
[#36]
If the fingerprint cards are scanned by the ATF, why the fuck don't they mail it back to you like your birth certificate is mailed back when you get a passport!?
This is so stupid and fucked it defies logic unless it is ANOTHER means at side door anti gun bullshit. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:10:09 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Perhaps I should go back to what I had in the OP. You cannot attach two FD-258 cards online. At least you cannot do so today. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You cannot file fingerprints and photographs online. Sure you can. And we should be organizing through our national groups (hello NRA) to push its inclusion. Upload a photo? Super easy. Digitize fingerprints? You can either scan the card (what do you think the ATF is gonna do with it) or you can go to a digital fingerprint scanning device. The Government uses them a lot. Hell, I bet a lot of LGS would buy one if it meant they could charge you $10 or $20 to scan your fingerprints for Form 1s. It's 2016 people. Perhaps I should go back to what I had in the OP. You cannot attach two FD-258 cards online. At least you cannot do so today. They could easily do this. There isn't any real technology hurdle. Which is why we should be pushing them hard to enable some sort of digital submission. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:10:29 PM EDT
[#38]
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GD told me that conservatives will stay home rather than vote for a "moderate" establishment R. They only want to vote for real conservatives. Now you tell me a real conservative has no chance. Well, which is it?! The gun community has been asking for a Cruz for two decades. Now you've got him, and you're desperately searching for some way to screw it up. QED Quote HistoryQuoted:
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this country is ruled by centrist voters and they will never elect a hard right fundamentalist for president GD told me that conservatives will stay home rather than vote for a "moderate" establishment R. They only want to vote for real conservatives. Now you tell me a real conservative has no chance. Well, which is it?! The gun community has been asking for a Cruz for two decades. Now you've got him, and you're desperately searching for some way to screw it up. QED No, I'm desperately searching for fact and logic among people who hate fact and logic because it's yucky. You and I do not elect a president. Go to a supermarket and look around. THOSE people elect a president. People who watch dancing with the stars and send each other youtube clips of cute puppies are the ones who elect a president. Those people will never elect a hard right fundamentalist. Cruz is not even "likable", he lacks that friendly salesmanship of Bill Clinton. Cruz comes off almost creepy. Aside from that, Cruz is disgusting to me. Some big government RINO who squawks about social conservatism is not a real republican. Republicans are supposed to be about freedom, small government, fiscal conservatism, and secure borders. Why are these fucking idiots talking about gay marriage when the economy is burning to the ground and the infrastructure is rotting apart? Find me a real republican and then I'll support the guy. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:12:04 PM EDT
[#39]
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I fear you are correct. Let's talk briefly about the trusts. I remember wanting to do the $69 online trust but some members here believed getting one from a bonafide NFA trust lawyer for double the price is the way to do. Can we discuss pros and cons of the cheap vs expensive trusts? Basically, what does paying more "really" get you? I paid a lawyer for mine, but I don't believe I got anything special for it. Really, it isn't like your lawyer starts from scratch every time. They have developed their own form, and they plug in a few details. Boom, done, next. It isn't like the big box internet sites don't employ lawyers to write their forms. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:13:37 PM EDT
[#40]
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why would 41F keep you from owning NFA stuff? it adds fingerprints to the trust option and removes the CLEO signoff from the individual option. I prefer the individual ownership option, so 41f is a plus for me. it just trims off the CLEO signoff it was a non-issue for me anyway, my local CLEO would sign off on a nuclear weapon fingerprints and photos wow, what an insurmountable barrier to owning an NFA item that's like 20 minutes out of your life that you'll never get back again. WHY ARE YOU GUYS ALWAYS SO PESSIMISTIC AND DRAMATIC ABOUT STUFF? EVERYDAY IS DOOMSDAY ON ARF GD Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well...looks like my dream of obtaining some NFA toys won't happen. Because by the time I can move to free state 41F will have been in effect for a few months. why would 41F keep you from owning NFA stuff? it adds fingerprints to the trust option and removes the CLEO signoff from the individual option. I prefer the individual ownership option, so 41f is a plus for me. it just trims off the CLEO signoff it was a non-issue for me anyway, my local CLEO would sign off on a nuclear weapon fingerprints and photos wow, what an insurmountable barrier to owning an NFA item that's like 20 minutes out of your life that you'll never get back again. WHY ARE YOU GUYS ALWAYS SO PESSIMISTIC AND DRAMATIC ABOUT STUFF? EVERYDAY IS DOOMSDAY ON ARF GD 20 minutes if everything works out.. and theres someone around to do the prints..... and you have time off work, to get to the sheriffs office to get it done..... and you will have to get it done each time..... its annoying. vs, getting online, and hammering the entire thing out, and paying the tax and all in 10 minutes, and BOOM.. your done... just gotta wait for your stamp in a email 4 months later. kentucky passed " shall sign" on nfa items a year or two ago, so i dont / didnt have to worry about that chief leo signoff anyway...... but i really did enjoy the trust route.... efiling is awesome. but removing the chief leo signoff will make it easier for people to buy nfa... ( they could anyway with a trust of course).... but i am honestly SHOCKED.... that they are dropping hte chief leo signoff requirement... if they would have required a chief leo signoff on trusts, plus prints and photos, it would have probably killed 50% of the country from buying nfa.... however... if they removed the signoff requirement..... IMHO its got more to do with the fact they probably could not attach that to a trust for legal reasons anyway.... than it was about them being " generous" and dropping it. im super happy they didnt require trusts to have leo signoffs . |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:14:57 PM EDT
[#41]
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If the fingerprint cards are scanned by the ATF, why the fuck don't they mail it back to you like your birth certificate is mailed back when you get a passport!? This is so stupid and fucked it defies logic unless it is ANOTHER means at side door anti gun bullshit. It is totally anti-gun bullshit, duh. It's not like they suddenly had a desire to change shit up for the hell of it. But that doesn't mean we can't push to make the change sensible, or find ways around it. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:16:57 PM EDT
[#42]
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If I was on a tight budget I absolutely would not buy any NFA stuff I would stick to buying the basic food groups of firearms first once I had "one of everything", then maybe I'd buy a suppressor Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Makes no difference to me. I don't own any NFA stuff and can't afford to.
NFA doesn't cost any more than regular firearms? If I was on a tight budget I absolutely would not buy any NFA stuff I would stick to buying the basic food groups of firearms first once I had "one of everything", then maybe I'd buy a suppressor I had my first stamp at 18 years of age. Things don't get much tighter than those times.... I survived on .99 cent cheesy burritos from taco bell. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:17:20 PM EDT
[#43]
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So you are saying that my brother that is on my trust can not be in possession of my NFA items that are on my trust and vice a versa? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I fail to see why anyone who could file as a trust would do so as an individual. All of my other guns are "individually owned". Why wouldn't I own NFA firearms as an individual? Estate management and allowing others to have access or possess one or more of your NFA firearms (spouse, child, etc). Assuming you would not let a prohibited person handle or have acces to "all of my other guns", the difference is that letting them have access to your individual possessed NFA devices is a crime, whereas letting them have access to your Title I guns is not. This is nonsense Nobody but the individual owner can USE the NFA weapon or suppressor. But please explain to me how this "access" thing works. Every month that goes by, this "access" thing gets more strident and more vague. You do not need to own a gun safe to have NFA stuff in your house, so how does the access thing actually work? back in the old days, using a trust for NFA was uncommon. Most people did not even know you could do it. If there was some big problem with individual ownership, you would have heard about it by now and it would be addressed in the NFA regs. So you are saying that my brother that is on my trust can not be in possession of my NFA items that are on my trust and vice a versa? LOL no, not saying anything like that |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:17:46 PM EDT
[#44]
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It is totally anti-gun bullshit, duh. It's not like they suddenly had a desire to change shit up for the hell of it. But that doesn't mean we can't push to make the change sensible, or find ways around it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If the fingerprint cards are scanned by the ATF, why the fuck don't they mail it back to you like your birth certificate is mailed back when you get a passport!? This is so stupid and fucked it defies logic unless it is ANOTHER means at side door anti gun bullshit. It is totally anti-gun bullshit, duh. It's not like they suddenly had a desire to change shit up for the hell of it. But that doesn't mean we can't push to make the change sensible, or find ways around it. They simply have to change this finger print rule..........I just emailed that off to the ATF............I hope they don't throw it into the trash can. Like they won't be able to get my fingerprints if they accidently misplace the actual card they have with EACH fucking NFA item. This is total fucking bullshit.
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:18:20 PM EDT
[#45]
Also, while the change might suck and be inconvenient, you can order a pack of five FD-258 fingerprint cards online for $6.
Unless the ATF is requiring the fingerprint cards be mailed in by local LEO, there is no reason why you can't file a Form 1 from the comfort of your own home without getting "the man" directly involved. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:19:59 PM EDT
[#46]
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Also, while the change might suck and be inconvenient, you can order a pack of five FD-258 fingerprint cards online for $6. Unless the ATF is requiring the fingerprint cards be mailed in by local LEO, there is no reason why you can't file a Form 1 from the comfort of your own home without getting "the man" directly involved. How do I get a finger print done in my home where they accept the fact that I did it? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:20:55 PM EDT
[#47]
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They simply have to change this finger print rule..........I just emailed that off to the ATF............I hope they don't throw it into the trash can. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If the fingerprint cards are scanned by the ATF, why the fuck don't they mail it back to you like your birth certificate is mailed back when you get a passport!? This is so stupid and fucked it defies logic unless it is ANOTHER means at side door anti gun bullshit. It is totally anti-gun bullshit, duh. It's not like they suddenly had a desire to change shit up for the hell of it. But that doesn't mean we can't push to make the change sensible, or find ways around it. They simply have to change this finger print rule..........I just emailed that off to the ATF............I hope they don't throw it into the trash can. Really, all they need to do is allow you to scan and upload the damn fingerprint card and photo. Everyone should be e-mailing the ATF and citing the Government Paperwork Elimination Act, and insisting that they allow for digital submission of these items on E-File. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:22:36 PM EDT
[#48]
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.................. Really, all they need to do is allow you to scan and upload the damn fingerprint card and photo. Everyone should be e-mailing the ATF and citing the Paperwork Reduction Act of 1980, and insisting that they allow for digital submission of these items on E-File. I know, it's fucking ridiculous. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:22:42 PM EDT
[#49]
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LOL no, not saying anything like that Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Estate management and allowing others to have access or possess one or more of your NFA firearms (spouse, child, etc). Assuming you would not let a prohibited person handle or have acces to "all of my other guns", the difference is that letting them have access to your individual possessed NFA devices is a crime, whereas letting them have access to your Title I guns is not. This is nonsense Nobody but the individual owner can USE the NFA weapon or suppressor. But please explain to me how this "access" thing works. Every month that goes by, this "access" thing gets more strident and more vague. You do not need to own a gun safe to have NFA stuff in your house, so how does the access thing actually work? back in the old days, using a trust for NFA was uncommon. Most people did not even know you could do it. If there was some big problem with individual ownership, you would have heard about it by now and it would be addressed in the NFA regs. So you are saying that my brother that is on my trust can not be in possession of my NFA items that are on my trust and vice a versa? LOL no, not saying anything like that Am I reading that wrong? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 12:22:44 PM EDT
[#50]
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Perhaps I should go back to what I had in the OP. You cannot attach two FD-258 cards online. At least you cannot do so today. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You cannot file fingerprints and photographs online. Sure you can. And we should be organizing through our national groups (hello NRA) to push its inclusion. Upload a photo? Super easy. Digitize fingerprints? You can either scan the card (what do you think the ATF is gonna do with it) or you can go to a digital fingerprint scanning device. The Government uses them a lot. Hell, I bet a lot of LGS would buy one if it meant they could charge you $10 or $20 to scan your fingerprints for Form 1s. It's 2016 people. Perhaps I should go back to what I had in the OP. You cannot attach two FD-258 cards online. At least you cannot do so today. See, this is key. I generally share your pessimism, Undefined, but there is nothing preventing online submissions from being a reality. In fact, there are folks in the industry pushing for such an option. Let's call out the issues with 41F, but words like "permanent" are a bit strong, especially when people with significant amounts of skin in the game are working to get clarification and are pushing the ATF on this very issue. |
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