Eurofighter finds F22 weak spot........ - Page 6

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Eurofighter finds F22 weak spot........ (Page 6 of 22)

Posted: 7/30/2012 5:53:44 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
these playing around dog fights are just fighter pilot ego management.
real war means BVR.
WVR is a chance to play, which means its all they do.

uhh.. didnt we lose a LOT of pilots because of that thinking once before?

Not really.
In Vietnam we lost 1400 AF planes to AAA, 170 to SAMS and about 70 in A2A.
Of those 70, how many were F4s with sidewinders but no cannon? Couldn't tell you.
Maybe a dozen, max
In vietnam we didn't lose our dog fighting skill, we lost our ability to adapt our doctrine to the fight. sound familiar?

No.

In the air superiority game, we lost our dog fighting skills because with the new AIm-7, everyone assumed dog fighting was over and they stopped training for it.

Then when we went to war with a top BVR weapon system, the lawyers restricted the ROE to visual ID our our guys paid the price for stupid policy makers.

. won't argue the lawyer part, but why dogfight against a MIG 21 in an F-105 at all? Walk away. er, fly away.

F105 had no air to air ordinance and can't turn. It was a bomber.

An F105 can run away real fast though, which is what they did.

Posted: 7/30/2012 5:53:51 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:

maybe you walk away from A2A and just mush airfields with tomahawks or roll over them with tanks.
As long as we are going to playing fantasy conventional fights against the chinese hordes, lets at least be smart about it.

That's stupid. If we're going to talk "fantasy conventional fights," lets talk the billions the Army spends on training for MCO, while neutering the primary killing arm in the fight. More people have been hurt jumping into training exercises, than have been hurt in Phase 2 and 3 operations.

Tomahawks are a pretty low density asset, and for most scenarios, what you have in theater is what you'll have for the fight. What you'll have is primarily ship and SSN/SSGN borne, and they'll have their own fight to content with before getting into position. That fight might be easy or hard, but, like the USAF getting used to sanctuary bases, we've gotten used to sanctuary waterspace.

Hey, I'm arguing for GLCMs. at 1 million a pop at todays prices, I can have a thousand for 3 F35s. I can do a lot with 1000 Tomahawks.
I can't argue the neutering of our artillery, but I am fairly certain we are doing it becomes some Amway salesmen says we don't need it.
Gulf War I and II kinda showed what an armored corps can do in a matter of hours.
never mind WW2.

Posted: 7/30/2012 5:54:45 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:

sometimes its best to walk away. If they want to chase, they can play around in patriot air space and let me know how that goes for them.

Yup, we know they work. Just ask the Tornado or F-18 that they killed in DS1! Or the F-16 that shot a one after the patriot locked him up...

fucking around in patriot airspace is a bad thing. don't exceed the ATO SPINS parameters and you'll be just fine.
more ground guys have died to air than the other way around.

Posted: 7/30/2012 5:55:52 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
these playing around dog fights are just fighter pilot ego management.
real war means BVR.
WVR is a chance to play, which means its all they do.

Against a numerically superior force, some will survive the BVR fight and merge. When they do, you better know what you are doing or you are dead in a few seconds.

Yea, it's the more fun part. It is also the part that fucks up your neck and back for the rest of your life, even if the rest of your life is only 30 seconds.

sometimes its best to walk away. If they want to chase, they can play around in patriot air space and let me know how that goes for them.

In an OCA mission sure.

In DCA you don't have that luxury.

And sometimes by supporting missile to the targets, you get inside the WEZ of the enemy and you don't have the ability to run away. You are committed to the merge. The choice is no longer there. Better know some ACM.

Richtohoven was the one who recommnded running away. He seemed to know what he was doing. Don't get too close. and the F22's ability to run away is pretty unparralled, one would think.

Posted: 7/30/2012 5:56:42 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
The Eurofighter is an excellent close range dogfighter. No one can argue against that. Get close to one of them and you will have a hell of a fight on your hands

The F22 is a "hide and seek" type killer. More often than not it's targets are identified by some other source and the F22s are guided on target. Then blow them out of the sky from afar before the targets have time to react to the F22s.

Fighters don't just appear in the same airspace and fight it out like in the combat simulations mentioned in the article.
In an actual combat environment they will have to approach from a distance before engaging. During that time the Eurofighter will be in great danger as it's long range capabilities are far inferior to the F22s.

Now assuming the Eurofighter manages to get in close to a F22 we are in a completely different type of combat. One that favors the dedicated dog fighter, the Eurofighter.

Now think for a second that, in this close engagement between a dedicated dogfighter (Eurofighter) and a "Hide and Seek" type air superiority fighter (F22), the fighters were considered evenly matched.
Close in dogfighting is the F22s one weakness, and even then it was evenly matched against one of the best dedicated dogfighting planes out there.

I think that speaks volumes to the versatility and overall air superiority capability of the F22.

It's comical that some of the people in here are thumping their chests and bashing the F22, when the best dogfighter they have was only able to equal the F22 in a dogfight, an aircraft whos weakest role, among it's many, is close range dogfighting.

22 can always disengage at will as well.

Posted: 7/30/2012 5:56:59 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

The Eurofighter is an excellent close range dogfighter. No one can argue against that. Get close to one of them and you will have a hell of a fight on your hands

The F22 is a "hide and seek" type killer. More often than not it's targets are identified by some other source and the F22s are guided on target. Then blow them out of the sky from afar before the targets have time to react to the F22s.

Fighters don't just appear in the same airspace and fight it out like in the combat simulations mentioned in the article.

In an actual combat environment they will have to approach from a distance before engaging. During that time the Eurofighter will be in great danger as it's long range capabilities are far inferior to the F22s.

Now assuming the Eurofighter manages to get in close to a F22 we are in a completely different type of combat. One that favors the dedicated dog fighter, the Eurofighter.

Now think for a second that, in this close engagement between a dedicated dogfighter (Eurofighter) and a "Hide and Seek" type air superiority fighter (F22), the fighters were considered evenly matched.

Close in dogfighting is the F22s one weakness, and even then it was evenly matched against one of the best dedicated dogfighting planes out there.

I think that speaks volumes to the versatility and overall air superiority capability of the F22.

It's comical that some of the people in here are thumping their chests and bashing the F22, when the best dogfighter they have was only able to equal the F22 in a dogfight, an aircraft whos weakest role, among it's many, is close range dogfighting.

Hear Here

Posted: 7/30/2012 5:57:12 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:

With off axis targeting and the targeting AIM-7X, are we doing it just to do it? And would I ever expect the fighter pilots in charge to admit the truth to the matter when we spend a fortune on deliberately neutered war games that are so fun?

The fights are neutered for good reason, just like the fights at Irwin and Hoenfelds and Polk are neutered. We've fought how many Corps level combined arms campaigns since 1950? But, we keep a tremendous amount of national capability to do just that.

But there are no alternatives to corps level combined arms campaigns. there are alternatives to dog fighting.
plus, apples to movie theaters. CTC rotations suck dick and everyone hates them.

In battle, NOBODY these days gets into a dog fight on purpose.

Posted: 7/30/2012 5:57:30 PM EDT

[#8]

Is the top dog Alpha male motherfucker going to walk away from a fight?

Not the fighter guys I know, and I know a lot.

Posted: 7/30/2012 5:58:12 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
these playing around dog fights are just fighter pilot ego management.
real war means BVR.
WVR is a chance to play, which means its all they do.

uhh.. didnt we lose a LOT of pilots because of that thinking once before?

Not really.
In Vietnam we lost 1400 AF planes to AAA, 170 to SAMS and about 70 in A2A.
Of those 70, how many were F4s with sidewinders but no cannon? Couldn't tell you.
Maybe a dozen, max
In vietnam we didn't lose our dog fighting skill, we lost our ability to adapt our doctrine to the fight. sound familiar?

No.

In the air superiority game, we lost our dog fighting skills because with the new AIm-7, everyone assumed dog fighting was over and they stopped training for it.

Then when we went to war with a top BVR weapon system, the lawyers restricted the ROE to visual ID our our guys paid the price for stupid policy makers.

. won't argue the lawyer part, but why dogfight against a MIG 21 in an F-105 at all? Walk away. er, fly away.

F105 had no air to air ordinance and can't turn. It was a bomber.

An F105 can run away real fast though, which is what they did.

27.5 air to air kills during Vietnam not bad for the Thud.

Posted: 7/30/2012 5:58:43 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

But there are no alternatives to corps level combined arms campaigns. there are alternatives to dog fighting.
plus, apples to movie theaters. CTC rotations suck dick and everyone hates them.

It makes perfect sense to have guys doing air combat capable along the spectrum of operations, just like a SSN, or DDG or infantry platoon. I want infantry platoons to be able to do independent anti-tank defense, though God forbid they have to do it.

To think of airplanes just driving to a point and shooting at something an ABM tells them to assumes all sorts of variables in play.

Again, you can't say "Centralization bad" and then say "Why are they learning tactics for decentralized operations?"

CTC rotations suck, mostly because the Army still doesn't get how to do simulations, despite aviators having done them for generations. When your mental model is a huge live action version of Tactics II, then a shitty outcome isn't that much in doubt.

Posted: 7/30/2012 5:59:04 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
these playing around dog fights are just fighter pilot ego management.
real war means BVR.
WVR is a chance to play, which means its all they do.

Against a numerically superior force, some will survive the BVR fight and merge. When they do, you better know what you are doing or you are dead in a few seconds.

Yea, it's the more fun part. It is also the part that fucks up your neck and back for the rest of your life, even if the rest of your life is only 30 seconds.

sometimes its best to walk away. If they want to chase, they can play around in patriot air space and let me know how that goes for them.

In an OCA mission sure.

In DCA you don't have that luxury.

And sometimes by supporting missile to the targets, you get inside the WEZ of the enemy and you don't have the ability to run away. You are committed to the merge. The choice is no longer there. Better know some ACM.

Richtohoven was the one who recommnded running away. He seemed to know what he was doing. Don't get too close. and the F22's ability to run away is pretty unparralled, one would think.

Yes, and that is because of acceleration, speed and wait for it.......STEALTH!

Posted: 7/30/2012 5:59:20 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
these playing around dog fights are just fighter pilot ego management.
real war means BVR.
WVR is a chance to play, which means its all they do.

uhh.. didnt we lose a LOT of pilots because of that thinking once before?

Not really.
In Vietnam we lost 1400 AF planes to AAA, 170 to SAMS and about 70 in A2A.
Of those 70, how many were F4s with sidewinders but no cannon? Couldn't tell you.
Maybe a dozen, max
In vietnam we didn't lose our dog fighting skill, we lost our ability to adapt our doctrine to the fight. sound familiar?

No.

In the air superiority game, we lost our dog fighting skills because with the new AIm-7, everyone assumed dog fighting was over and they stopped training for it.

Then when we went to war with a top BVR weapon system, the lawyers restricted the ROE to visual ID our our guys paid the price for stupid policy makers.

. won't argue the lawyer part, but why dogfight against a MIG 21 in an F-105 at all? Walk away. er, fly away.

F105 had no air to air ordinance and can't turn. It was a bomber.

An F105 can run away real fast though, which is what they did.

Originally came with gun and missiles, at least according to wiki.
What century series was worth a fuck anyway? F100? (screech thinks so, I'm not sold)

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:00:00 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
To be honest the Raptor and Eurofighter between them make a dream team in terms of aerial combat....

Can't disagree with you on that. Between the two of them that's a lot of kickass to hand out, and we're not even factoring in our F-15s, either.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:00:09 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:there are alternatives to dog fighting.

Agreed, and we would avoid it at all costs, but sometimes their is no alternative. We'll use your 105 vs 21 reference from earlier. So the 105 is the only thing between that MIG and it shooting down a formation of B-52s...the escort (F-4s) are tied up with another group of Migs...

Quoted:for the love of all that is holy, please save me the supersonic fighter providing CAS. I hold pilots and my own life in much higher regard than to consider that nonsense.
I think the only loss of a fixed wing aircraft in 10 years of GWOT in combat was target fixation on a gun run and cratering.
keep the gun run.

Ya, because no OV-10/any other CAS platform has ever flown into the ground due to target fixation... We have all learned a lot from Trojans loss!

I agree that we could a good dedicated CAS platform, but we do just fine with what we have. Have had numerous JTACs tell us they'd rather have a Viper/Strike over a Hog, for no other reason, than for speed...our ability to be in and get more weapons on target faster. I also have had more than one JTAC, say "thanks, you saved our asses today."

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:00:21 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
these playing around dog fights are just fighter pilot ego management.
real war means BVR.
WVR is a chance to play, which means its all they do.

uhh.. didnt we lose a LOT of pilots because of that thinking once before?

Not really.
In Vietnam we lost 1400 AF planes to AAA, 170 to SAMS and about 70 in A2A.
Of those 70, how many were F4s with sidewinders but no cannon? Couldn't tell you.
Maybe a dozen, max
In vietnam we didn't lose our dog fighting skill, we lost our ability to adapt our doctrine to the fight. sound familiar?

No.

In the air superiority game, we lost our dog fighting skills because with the new AIm-7, everyone assumed dog fighting was over and they stopped training for it.

Then when we went to war with a top BVR weapon system, the lawyers restricted the ROE to visual ID our our guys paid the price for stupid policy makers.

. won't argue the lawyer part, but why dogfight against a MIG 21 in an F-105 at all? Walk away. er, fly away.

F105 had no air to air ordinance and can't turn. It was a bomber.

An F105 can run away real fast though, which is what they did.

Originally came with gun and missiles, at least according to wiki.
What century series was worth a fuck anyway? F100? (screech thinks so, I'm not sold)

F106 flew for over 30 years and pilots still bragged about how awesome it was when I was at Tyndall in '95.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:00:38 PM EDT

[#16]

I wouldn't put my money on any of the new Air Force fighters we blew all of our taxpayer cash on. If we actually needed them in a real world mission, they'd probably be grounded for electrical problems

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:00:43 PM EDT

[#17]

None of the century series was worth a shit.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:01:07 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Is the top dog Alpha male motherfucker going to walk away from a fight?

Not the fighter guys I know, and I know a lot.

Kinda the problem. not a problem until the CFACC and CoSAF have the same mentality.
Unfortunately the fight to the CFACC and CoSAF is usually against the Army.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:01:16 PM EDT

[#19]

tag

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:02:08 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
None of the century series was worth a shit.

Jack Bourghton and Chuck Yeager would disagree, especially on the 106 and 104 respectively. We just didn't have a war where either were utilized.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:02:38 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:

But there are no alternatives to corps level combined arms campaigns. there are alternatives to dog fighting.
plus, apples to movie theaters. CTC rotations suck dick and everyone hates them.

It makes perfect sense to have guys doing air combat capable along the spectrum of operations, just like a SSN, or DDG or infantry platoon. I want infantry platoons to be able to do independent anti-tank defense, though God forbid they have to do it.

To think of airplanes just driving to a point and shooting at something an ABM tells them to assumes all sorts of variables in play.

Again, you can't say "Centralization bad" and then say "Why are they learning tactics for decentralized operations?"

CTC rotations suck, mostly because the Army still doesn't get how to do simulations, despite aviators having done them for generations. When your mental model is a huge live action version of Tactics II, then a shitty outcome isn't that much in doubt.

You need to see the armor battalion in a can at knox. Ground combat is not air combat the variables are too much and you simply can't replicate it by computer (CoD doesn't count)

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:02:41 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:

sometimes its best to walk away. If they want to chase, they can play around in patriot air space and let me know how that goes for them.

Yup, we know they work. Just ask the Tornado or F-18 that they killed in DS1! Or the F-16 that shot a one after the patriot locked him up...

fucking around in patriot airspace is a bad thing. don't exceed the ATO SPINS parameters and you'll be just fine.
more ground guys have died to air than the other way around.

And by that you mean returning to base to land...

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:02:47 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Hey, I'm arguing for GLCMs. at 1 million a pop at todays prices, I can have a thousand for 3 F35s. I can do a lot with 1000 Tomahawks.

Not going to happen, in our lifetime. Interestingly, the two militaries tradtionally heavy on short range missiles are investing in new fighters.

I can't argue the neutering of our artillery, but I am fairly certain we are doing it becomes some Amway salesmen says we don't need it.
Gulf War I and II kinda showed what an armored corps can do in a matter of hours.
never mind WW2.

Under completely permissive naval and air conditions, an armored corps is decisive. In non-permissive conditions, its a bunch of dudes watching the war from Hood.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:03:30 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
these playing around dog fights are just fighter pilot ego management.
real war means BVR.
WVR is a chance to play, which means its all they do.

Against a numerically superior force, some will survive the BVR fight and merge. When they do, you better know what you are doing or you are dead in a few seconds.

Yea, it's the more fun part. It is also the part that fucks up your neck and back for the rest of your life, even if the rest of your life is only 30 seconds.

sometimes its best to walk away. If they want to chase, they can play around in patriot air space and let me know how that goes for them.

In an OCA mission sure.

In DCA you don't have that luxury.

And sometimes by supporting missile to the targets, you get inside the WEZ of the enemy and you don't have the ability to run away. You are committed to the merge. The choice is no longer there. Better know some ACM.

Richtohoven was the one who recommnded running away. He seemed to know what he was doing. Don't get too close. and the F22's ability to run away is pretty unparralled, one would think.

Yes, and that is because of acceleration, speed and wait for it.......STEALTH!

Stealth might get you there, not sure its gonna get you out of there.
I gotta find that JFQ article.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:03:31 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Is the top dog Alpha male motherfucker going to walk away from a fight?

Not the fighter guys I know, and I know a lot.

Really?

Throwing out the anchor over hostile territory if you don't have to, is not a good idea.

Unless you don't have a kill yet,or everybody else has one and this will be your second, or you need one more fr ace, or.........

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:04:19 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
None of the century series was worth a shit.

Jack Bourghton and Chuck Yeager would disagree, especially on the 106 and 104 respectively. We just didn't have a war where either were utilized.

Hey, I am just an opinionated ass without a dog in this fight, but all pilots love what they fly.

Seriously.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:04:52 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Is the top dog Alpha male motherfucker going to walk away from a fight?

Not the fighter guys I know, and I know a lot.

Really?

Throwing out the anchor over hostile territory if you don't have to, is not a good idea.

Unless you don't have a kill yet,or everybody else has one and this will be your second, or you need one more fr ace, or.........

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:04:55 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
these playing around dog fights are just fighter pilot ego management.
real war means BVR.
WVR is a chance to play, which means its all they do.

uhh.. didnt we lose a LOT of pilots because of that thinking once before?

Not really.
In Vietnam we lost 1400 AF planes to AAA, 170 to SAMS and about 70 in A2A.
Of those 70, how many were F4s with sidewinders but no cannon? Couldn't tell you.
Maybe a dozen, max
In vietnam we didn't lose our dog fighting skill, we lost our ability to adapt our doctrine to the fight. sound familiar?

No.

In the air superiority game, we lost our dog fighting skills because with the new AIm-7, everyone assumed dog fighting was over and they stopped training for it.

Then when we went to war with a top BVR weapon system, the lawyers restricted the ROE to visual ID our our guys paid the price for stupid policy makers.

. won't argue the lawyer part, but why dogfight against a MIG 21 in an F-105 at all? Walk away. er, fly away.

F105 had no air to air ordinance and can't turn. It was a bomber.

An F105 can run away real fast though, which is what they did.

27.5 air to air kills during Vietnam not bad for the Thud.

Testimony to the fact that guns kill people and migs fly out in front of fast moving airplanes sometimes.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:05:51 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:there are alternatives to dog fighting.

Agreed, and we would avoid it at all costs, but sometimes their is no alternative. We'll use your 105 vs 21 reference from earlier. So the 105 is the only thing between that MIG and it shooting down a formation of B-52s...the escort (F-4s) are tied up with another group of Migs...

Quoted:for the love of all that is holy, please save me the supersonic fighter providing CAS. I hold pilots and my own life in much higher regard than to consider that nonsense.
I think the only loss of a fixed wing aircraft in 10 years of GWOT in combat was target fixation on a gun run and cratering.
keep the gun run.

Ya, because no OV-10/any other CAS platform has ever flown into the ground due to target fixation... We have all learned a lot from Trojans loss!

I agree that we could a good dedicated CAS platform, but we do just fine with what we have. Have had numerous JTACs tell us they'd rather have a Viper/Strike over a Hog, for no other reason, than for speed...our ability to be in and get more weapons on target faster. I also have had more than one JTAC, say "thanks, you saved our asses today."

the af does just fine with what you have.
it sucks for the army.
and pardon me the JTAC stories. I really couldn't give a fuck about the AF fellating itself on how awesome its CAS is.
I agree the A-10 is an over-rated out of date POS.
ask your JTACs if they would rather have an F16 or an apache (or an AC)
If you needed AF fast movers to save your ass in Afghanistan, you fucked up by the numbers in the first place.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:05:51 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:Gulf War I and II kinda showed what an armored corps can do in a matter of hours.

Sure makes it a lot easier, when you don't have not worry of attack from the air.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:06:02 PM EDT

[#31]

Hell, an A4 shot down a MiG with a Zuni rocket.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:06:53 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
None of the century series was worth a shit.

The F-100 was a passable airplane. The rest were dogs. Comparing the F-100 to the Crusader or Tiger has the -100 coming up second best.

For the amount of money dumped into the Thud and F-111, the USAF would have been better served with Vigilantes.

The immediate post Vietnam stuff wasn't bad.... and I think the F-5, liked the OV-10, were great aircraft never adequately replaced.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:07:06 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
None of the century series was worth a shit.

Jack Bourghton and Chuck Yeager would disagree, especially on the 106 and 104 respectively. We just didn't have a war where either were utilized.

The F104 killed more germans than the P-51.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:07:43 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
None of the century series was worth a shit.

Jack Bourghton and Chuck Yeager would disagree, especially on the 106 and 104 respectively. We just didn't have a war where either were utilized.

Hey, I am just an opinionated ass without a dog in this fight, but all pilots love what they fly.

Seriously.

well Broughton flew the 105 primarily and Yeager tested everything under the sun. Both had an extremely high opinion of the capabilities of both the aircraft I listed from the standpoint of a pure air to air fighter. The problem with both is that neither were required in Vietnam or used extensively as the missions just weren't there for them. The F4s could be utilized in both roles while the 106 continued to fly intercepts against the Russians west of Alaska.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:08:28 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

the af does just fine with what you have.
it sucks for the army.
and pardon me the JTAC stories. I really couldn't give a fuck about the AF fellating itself on how awesome its CAS is.
I agree the A-10 is an over-rated out of date POS.
ask your JTACs if they would rather have an F16 or an apache (or an AC)
If you needed AF fast movers to save your ass in Afghanistan, you fucked up by the numbers in the first place.

Oh, I agree...the Apaches are a much better platform. They were awesome to watch too! But unfortunately, in all my cases the Apaches were either tied up doing something else or were still on the way by the time we showed up and took care of the issue.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:08:31 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Hey, I'm arguing for GLCMs. at 1 million a pop at todays prices, I can have a thousand for 3 F35s. I can do a lot with 1000 Tomahawks.

Not going to happen, in our lifetime. Interestingly, the two militaries tradtionally heavy on short range missiles are investing in new fighters.

I can't argue the neutering of our artillery, but I am fairly certain we are doing it becomes some Amway salesmen says we don't need it.
Gulf War I and II kinda showed what an armored corps can do in a matter of hours.
never mind WW2.

Under completely permissive naval and air conditions, an armored corps is decisive. In non-permissive conditions, its a bunch of dudes watching the war from Hood.

Am I arguing Navy?
How is it we are losing to dirt farmers with unparralled air power but somehow the US military is completely neutered?
I need air neutrality, nothing more, to roll up ANY non-nuclear threat.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:08:33 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
these playing around dog fights are just fighter pilot ego management.
real war means BVR.
WVR is a chance to play, which means its all they do.

uhh.. didnt we lose a LOT of pilots because of that thinking once before?

Not really.
In Vietnam we lost 1400 AF planes to AAA, 170 to SAMS and about 70 in A2A.
Of those 70, how many were F4s with sidewinders but no cannon? Couldn't tell you.
Maybe a dozen, max
In vietnam we didn't lose our dog fighting skill, we lost our ability to adapt our doctrine to the fight. sound familiar?

No.

In the air superiority game, we lost our dog fighting skills because with the new AIm-7, everyone assumed dog fighting was over and they stopped training for it.

Then when we went to war with a top BVR weapon system, the lawyers restricted the ROE to visual ID our our guys paid the price for stupid policy makers.

. won't argue the lawyer part, but why dogfight against a MIG 21 in an F-105 at all? Walk away. er, fly away.

F105 had no air to air ordinance and can't turn. It was a bomber.

An F105 can run away real fast though, which is what they did.

27.5 air to air kills during Vietnam not bad for the Thud.

Just found out they carried 2 sidewinders sometimes for self defense.

I didn't know that.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:09:14 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

You need to see the armor battalion in a can at knox. Ground combat is not air combat the variables are too much and you simply can't replicate it by computer (CoD doesn't count)

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Modern naval combat is all the elements of air combat, plus the multiple manuvering elements of ground combat, combined with exo-atmospheric and sub-surface elements.

Modern naval combat can be replicated.

The Army can do simulation. It just refuses to properly, and thus gets a shitty result.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:09:21 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:Gulf War I and II kinda showed what an armored corps can do in a matter of hours.

Sure makes it a lot easier, when you don't have not worry of attack from the air.

I can have that with Tactical ADA and tomahawk deep strike.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:10:27 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
None of the century series was worth a shit.

Jack Bourghton and Chuck Yeager would disagree, especially on the 106 and 104 respectively. We just didn't have a war where either were utilized.

The F104 killed more germans than the P-51.

I did say it was a great aircraft didn't I?

For what its worth, the 104 was acknowledged as an experts aircraft. The Italians came through Spangdahlem back in 96 with theirs. Nothing sounds like a 104, seriously. In person the sound is unworldly.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:10:50 PM EDT

[#41]

Having the most advanced and most deadly ADA network in the world and having a bunch of artillery is all ya really need now a days.

What is it that US Army ADA crews say? "If it flies, it dies"

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:11:11 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
None of the century series was worth a shit.

Jack Bourghton and Chuck Yeager would disagree, especially on the 106 and 104 respectively. We just didn't have a war where either were utilized.

No fleets of Tu-95s flying over rubble strewn cities that Soviet ICBMs created?

The -106 and -104 were little more than manned strategic SAMs, fielded in an area where the strategic SAM was pretty useless.

Posted: 7/30/2012 6:11:15 PM EDT

[#43]