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Slight problem with this. There are a LOT of them out there, and they'll take society down with them if they just get a "Let them eat cake" response. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Right, which means it will require more technical skills and intelligence to get a job and be useful in the new "AI" market. The moron burger flippers should starve when this happens. Darwin wills it. Slight problem with this. There are a LOT of them out there, and they'll take society down with them if they just get a "Let them eat cake" response. If it weren't for the government telling them "no" they could save up some cash, buy a food cart and go sell "handmade, authentic, original recipe" burgers in the park for 2X what a Big Mac costs. |
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O teh noes, autos will put the buggy whip makers out of business! Universal communist income for all!
Stupid horseshit. |
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IMHO, the only thing that is going to save this World is if we get a plague that takes out 1/3rd-1/2 the population.
Automated this, automated that... Pretty soon the robots are making the robots. Low income and lower middle income people are going to have a very tight job market, would cause problems. I'll be dead by then so... |
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Musk might be a smart guy and skilled at getting people to fund his interests, but he's wrong about this. View Quote Like all things, it depends on the execution. UBI and UHC have their merits, even from a financially conservative perspective, but they depend on the population (and its values) to succeed. They're enlightened and sustainable methodologies but the vast majority of Americans aren't mature enough to participate. Then there's the realistic part of it... Do you really expect our politicians to not fuck it up? |
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Elon Musk the guy who's become a billionaire by having the government underwrite an otherwise unworkable business model. I don't want to live in his world.
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The failure to understand free markets is remarkable here. View Quote Actually its more your failing... Movies and music did not become cheaper with the elimination of media and , brick / mortar stores as their primary means of distribution. Thats just one example I can think of off the top of my head. People make the incortect assumption that things become cheaper as technology advanced and creates new solutions / delivery methods. This is just not always the case. Also consider that govt is already studying the implications of a near future work force dominated by ai / robotics , and how they will apply an "income tax" on robot workers to offset the loss of taxes paid by human workers. This is a much more complicated subject than you might imagine. |
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This is true the burger will not become significantly cheaper . View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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It will be $2.50 at a minimum. They know you're willing to pay that, so why would they drop the price? This is true the burger will not become significantly cheaper . So sell it for $2.25 and you will steal his customers. |
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I do not want to live in that world at that point you're just a drone and a parasite
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Musk is an epic fucktard. The future will be different, but I now know that it won't be what Musk predicts. Simply because he predicted it. Besides he'll be on Mars...
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What if automation was strictly limited to gov't jobs and farming? Lower taxes and no competition in the private sector?
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Automation is happening and it is going to be a major issue and I honestly have no idea what a real "solution" to it will be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb0Kzb3haK8 https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2015/02/05/screen-shot-2015-02-05-at-3.31.37-pm_wide-4d717d2b8b195d2a98b70cd42ed16ee61fb4d365.png?s=1400 View Quote John Connor will lead the resistance. ![]() |
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So sell it for $2.25 and you will steal his customers. View Quote Ok look at it like this. airlines raised their rates several years ago citing rising fuel. They also started charing money to check bags , etc. Well fuel is dirt cheap right now. I guess if you want to be the spitrit air of burgers that will work. Ill sell the 2.50 burger for 1.50. Want ketchup thats 50 cents please... |
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Actually its more your failing... Movies and music did not become cheaper with the elimination of media and , brick / mortar stores as their primary means of distribution. Thats just one example I can think of off the top of my head. People make the incortect assumption that things become cheaper as technology advanced and creates new solutions / delivery methods. This is just not always the case. Also consider that govt is already studying the implications of a near future work force dominated by ai / robotics , and how they will apply an "income tax" on robot workers to offset the loss of taxes paid by human workers. This is a much more complicated subject than you might imagine. View Quote Exactly What will be done with the millions of displaced workers globally ? What about the millions coming of working age with no jobs available ? Future workers who are unable to meet standards of the day for a job of the future ? |
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Why produce the goods in the first place?
Who are the consumers of the goods produced by automation in this scenario? The proposal sounds like they want to pay UI to everyone so they can buy the things produced by automation...which in turn funds UI. What's the point? Kinda reminiscent of Wile E. Coyote sitting in a sailboat with a fan. ![]() |
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I was just thinking about this today. AI and automation will replace a lot of unskilled jobs. It will replace a lot of skilled jobs as well. I'm in engineering and can even see AI potentially taking my job at some point. We are already using AI to improve some results.
What the heck do you do with people who can't find work in that world? I don't know what the answer is. Hope it isn't the Soylent Green factory! |
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Initially it's easy to be opposed to the idea of UI, but it actually starts making sense when you think about it. -Without a UI the masses of unemployed workers will just turn to crime or riot, and society will need to spend a huge amount of money fighting against this and locking people up in prison. The amount of money currently spent to incarcerate a prisoner for a year could easily be used to instead pay them a UI and avoid the financial motivation for crime in the first place. View Quote Except what will really happen is that a few wealthy people will own all the robots while the masses will be kept in line by a powerful police force. |
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Exactly What will be done with the millions of displaced workers globally ? What about the millions coming of working age with no jobs available ? Future workers who are unable to meet standards of the day for a job of the future ? View Quote I agree and its a serious logical fallacy to assume that just because new jobs are created there will be suffecient jobs to fill the gap. Society always has lower tiers who cannot or will not rise to the challenges. We are at a precipice now though where the ditch digger jobs are disappearing. Its a new dawn |
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We'll see how smart/rich Musk is once his government subsidies are taken away by Trump.
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Except what will really happen is that a few wealthy people will own all the robots while the masses will be kept in line by a powerful police force. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Except what will really happen is that a few wealthy people will own all the robots while the masses will be kept in line by a powerful police force. Quoted:
Musk is an epic fucktard. The future will be different, but I now know that it won't be what Musk predicts. Simply because he predicted it. Besides he'll be on Mars... ![]() I actually think that he is a genius however he seems completely oblivious to human nature. |
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One must appreciate how half of the responses to this issue, which is guaranteed to become a real thing, are just asinine "well fuck Elon Musk" type comments.
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I agree and its a serious logical fallacy to assume that just because new jobs are created there will be suffecient jobs to fill the gap. Society always has lower tiers who cannot or will not rise to the challenges. We are at a precipice now though where the ditch digger jobs are disappearing. Its a new dawn View Quote Not ony menial labor jobs but retail jobs will take a huge hit in the coming years. Buying on the internet has already closed many retail outlets and most if not all will probably be gone in the future with small, specialized shops being an exception. |
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I'd imagine the population of a country that had UBI would be hilariously worthless. Just a bunch of government teet-suckers.
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Elon Musk lives in a microcosm of upper-class people. He doesn't realize humans can do things more efficiently than robots.
You can go to a cafeteria where your meal comes from a vending machine and you just pay, open a door, get your food and go. No need to have a waiter, order taker or cashier. You can push this to other business ideas and have a bar where you go up to a vending machine, select your drink and it gets dispensed, but you don't get the "bartender" interaction. But do you really want to do that? You can have pizza delivered to you by a person. He drives to your house in a car, walks up to your house or apartment, and drops it off and gets paid. The cost of making a remote controlled car, and a robot to drop it off would be in the millions, and that's just for the prototype. Why do that when you can pay a person less than $10 an hour to do that with his car that costs less than $10,000 unless he's a well off pizza delivery guy. |
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Ownership is the solution. I own part of my companies, you own part of your companies. We trade the low cost goods our companies produce for money we spend at other companies producing low cost goods. Own enough stock and you don't need to work, you just have to have robots/other people working for you. View Quote What does that mean? Handing out unearned stock will have the same personal/societal affect that handing out unearned cash does today. |
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Not ony menial labor jobs but retail jobs will take a huge hit in the coming years. Buying on the internet has already closed many retail outlets and most if not all will probably be gone in the future with small, specialized shops being an exception. View Quote As I stated earlier white collar is far from immune... |
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I like to think that there will be plenty of work to do in the future associated with extraplanetary colonization. Can't come soon enough
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Elon Musk lives in a microcosm of upper-class people. He doesn't realize humans can do things more efficiently than robots. You can go to a cafeteria where your meal comes from a vending machine and you just pay, open a door, get your food and go. No need to have a waiter, order taker or cashier. You can push this to other business ideas and have a bar where you go up to a vending machine, select your drink and it gets dispensed, but you don't get the "bartender" interaction. But do you really want to do that? You can have pizza delivered to you by a person. He drives a car, walks up and drops it off. The cost of making a remote controlled car, and a robot to drop it off would be in the millions. Why do that when you can pay a person less than $10 an hour to do that with his car that costs less than $10,000 unless he's a well off pizza delivery guy. View Quote At least that much, and if you were only making one or two it wouldn't make sense. But then look at other applications for the systems that would take, all sorts of automated vehicles, then applications beyond vehicles. Then figure you'll end up making thousands, or tens of thousands of those vehicles. Then you've got all the other vehicles that use much of the same technology. Then you don't have a driver that fails to show up for his shift. I can go on and on. Eventually the costs are so spread out that it does make sense. |
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Humanity will survive and improve by absorbing technology and becoming enhanced. Training will eventually become as simple as an upload. There will be no robot or AI takeover because truly sentient AI is not possible.
AI will look and seem sentient and will even pass the turing test but will be absolutely no match for human creativity as we continue to evolve into bio-computerized hybrids. |
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Elon Musk lives in a microcosm of upper-class people. He doesn't realize humans can do things more efficiently than robots. You can go to a cafeteria where your meal comes from a vending machine and you just pay, open a door, get your food and go. No need to have a waiter, order taker or cashier. You can push this to other business ideas and have a bar where you go up to a vending machine, select your drink and it gets dispensed, but you don't get the "bartender" interaction. But do you really want to do that? You can have pizza delivered to you by a person. He drives a car, walks up and drops it off. The cost of making a remote controlled car, and a robot to drop it off would be in the millions. Why do that when you can pay a person less than $10 an hour to do that with his car that costs less than $10,000 unless he's a well off pizza delivery guy. View Quote Here is the problem, you are missing a key component of why machines are better. Its extremely expensive now to use humans and as we stare the $15 minimum wage in the face , its just cheaper to not use people. Basic wage , benefits, unemployment, social security, etc. etc.... support staff for the production people(HR, managers , and on , and on.... ) its a waterfall. |
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My robot army >>> your robot army. View Quote Here you go. I've heard this basic argument from very liberal people several times recently. I always point it how much easier and cheaper it will simply be to leverage this amazing automation technology and build an army of hunter/killer drones. Plebes feel like rioting? Send in the drones! None of them liked this thought. |
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Yes, but you don't know what jobs the future will bring. View Quote I know that. I don't want to sound like a Luddite. It's generally a given that the transition from a manufacturing economy to a service economy has been hell on the lower-middle class. What happens when the service economy disappears, when a McDonald's is managed by one MIT grad and three ITT Tech workers on rotating shifts? |
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What does that mean? Handing out unearned stock will have the same personal/societal affect that handing out unearned cash does today. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Ownership is the solution. I own part of my companies, you own part of your companies. We trade the low cost goods our companies produce for money we spend at other companies producing low cost goods. Own enough stock and you don't need to work, you just have to have robots/other people working for you. What does that mean? Handing out unearned stock will have the same personal/societal affect that handing out unearned cash does today. It means that if you want to prepare for the future, it's a good idea to not live paycheck to paycheck with no investments. |
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O teh noes, autos will put the buggy whip makers out of business! Universal communist income for all! Stupid horseshit. View Quote Good luck with that. |
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Computers are starting to take over white-collar and even creative jobs. No one is immune. View Quote Quoted for truth and most people including 95% of GD just does not understand the pace at which design/ implementation is occurring. Wal Mart is less than 3 years from deploying inventory robots in stores, and GE has HAD FDA approval for a while now on a fully tested and functional robotic anesthesiologist. |
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-Without a UI the masses of unemployed workers will just turn to crime or riot, and society will need to spend a huge amount of money fighting against this and locking people up in prison. View Quote Basically Musk is saying what the Left has been doing for decades: appeasement. He's saying that unless you appease some class you'll have civil unrest. Appeasement never works. No demand is ever satisfied by appeasement, and the demands always grow. |
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Basically Musk is saying what the Left has been doing for decades: appeasement. He's saying that unless you appease some class you'll have civil unrest. Appeasement never works. No demand is ever satisfied by appeasement, and the demands always grow. View Quote Friedman also advocated a UBI. It would actually save the country money assuming other entitlements were scrapped. |
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Friedman also advocated a UBI. It would actually save the country money assuming other entitlements were scrapped. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Basically Musk is saying what the Left has been doing for decades: appeasement. He's saying that unless you appease some class you'll have civil unrest. Appeasement never works. No demand is ever satisfied by appeasement, and the demands always grow. Friedman also advocated a UBI. It would actually save the country money assuming other entitlements were scrapped. It also assumes that the shitbirds would be appeased by whatever UBI we gave them. It doesn't seem to work now. |
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Elon Musk lives in a microcosm of upper-class people. He doesn't realize humans can do things more efficiently than robots. You can go to a cafeteria where your meal comes from a vending machine and you just pay, open a door, get your food and go. No need to have a waiter, order taker or cashier. You can push this to other business ideas and have a bar where you go up to a vending machine, select your drink and it gets dispensed, but you don't get the "bartender" interaction. But do you really want to do that? You can have pizza delivered to you by a person. He drives to your house in a car, walks up to your house or apartment, and drops it off and gets paid. The cost of making a remote controlled car, and a robot to drop it off would be in the millions, and that's just for the prototype. Why do that when you can pay a person less than $10 an hour to do that with his car that costs less than $10,000 unless he's a well off pizza delivery guy. View Quote The cost of the technology will go down with time..as "we" perfect it. Also, I could give two fucks less about the "bartender" experience..let alone having a person fuck up my order. |
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Humans will simple adapt and evolve new wet-ware. We will change with our surroundings. We will not cease to exist. Training will become VERY simple.
Humanity has as much of a survival instinct as any other organism. Trans-humanism, as weird as it sounds, will become real. |
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It means that if you want to prepare for the future, it's a good idea to not live paycheck to paycheck with no investments. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Ownership is the solution. I own part of my companies, you own part of your companies. We trade the low cost goods our companies produce for money we spend at other companies producing low cost goods. Own enough stock and you don't need to work, you just have to have robots/other people working for you. What does that mean? Handing out unearned stock will have the same personal/societal affect that handing out unearned cash does today. It means that if you want to prepare for the future, it's a good idea to not live paycheck to paycheck with no investments. That is literally preaching-to-the-choir advice. Those with the means to save and the wherewithal to plan for the future are not the immediate problem, and the immediate problem is only going to get worse and spread as time passes. |
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My ultimate guess is that we'll muddle along somehow as we always have.
I understand that the whole "Horses to cars" analogy doesn't work completely with robotics, AI, and automation. In the 1900's when cars started to displace the "Horse industry" as the primary means of transportation that wasn't already on ships or trains, horse breeders, stable boys, hay farmers, saddle-makers, buggy makers, street poop sweepers etc. were all put out of work over the years. However, it put millions to work drilling oil, making cars, repairing cars, making tires, oil filters, spark plugs, building and repairing roads, running gas stations and it goes on and on and on. And with automation picking up all the "new jobs" that previous automation frees up the capital to pay for or make use of... the "new jobs" part of the cycle does not come into play. However, the increases in efficiency, and cost savings does continue. Where does that capital go? Into a bank, under the billionaire's mattress? Even if it goes into ever more robots, automation, and factories, what good does it do if there aren't millions of people able to pay for the goods or services all that automation produces? Nor can you realistically tax the billionaire at 90% or whatever and give it back out as welfare or "min-come" because Keynesian snake-eating-its-own-tail schemes never work out in the long-run, and they don't provide an outlet for the new income, the new wealth such productivity creates. The other part of this problem is the more industries automate, the cheaper their products and services get. You may not think so, but think of how many things are effectively "free" already in the digital realm where we have some parallels as to what a fully automated or at least a highly automated one might look like. What constitutes "poverty" in America is a constantly sliding scale, where the "poor" have conveniences and luxuries that are unimaginable to people of 50 years earlier. Would you rather be on welfare in 2016, with TV, a smartphone, heat, AC, running water, modern medical care, or be a wealthy plantation owner in 1700 where if you got sick, they stuck leeches on you, and everyone, even the rich smelled like absolute ass, and were covered in lice? Or hell, would you rather be on Welfare in 2016, or "rich" before 1942, when mass-production of Penicillin started? And something as simple as appendicitis could kill you? You can make a video call over Skype or Facebook messenger etc. for free, to anywhere in the world the other person has signal, from your smartphone, possibly over free wi-fi provided by a restaurant or store. In the early 80s's such activity cost tens of thousands of dollars and the equipment was in the millions. Maybe a news-room over it's satellite links could do it. In the 90's it still at least cost hundreds of dollars, and tens of thousands in terms of the equipment if it was owned by you. Now it's effectively free. Perhaps even more fundamentally important, how much free or open-source software is there. Maybe it's not as popular or convenient, but it works, and provides all the functionality for nothing but the cost of the bandwidth to download it. (Which again could be free on public-WiFi) Linux operating system, OpenOffice, various free open-source utilities, games, databases... there is very little that can't be replicated for free and not give you basic 1:1 functionality. What happens when that kind of efficiency and cost-reductions come to food, housing, clothes, toys, durable goods? What happens if a big investment in nuclear power makes energy a fraction of the cost it is now? The one thing people don't consider in all the hand wringing and worry over: "The millionaires and billionaires have robots, and now even the robots are making more robots, so there's no jobs for anybody.."-problem, is that all it would take is one robot to build a "poor person" a robot, and that robot could make two robots... It won't be comfortable at first, but ultimately the "economic robot apocalypse" could mean more for the end of the billionaire, because nobody needs anything when their robots can make it, build it, or grow it for them, than it does for poor people who won't have a job. The problem of "jobs" is concerning, but if society automates that heavily, and productivity goes sky-high, and we essentially wind up living in a post-scarcity society... we may not even be looking out for the right problems. |
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Marxists. LOL. Marx predicted the collapse of capitalism. The argument was that the advance of capitalism would produce enough to meet everyone's needs, so there would be no need for further large scale production. That was supposed to set in motion the events leading to communist utopia. That was, of course, followed by the Population Bomb predictions of mass starvation due to over population. View Quote this is a pretty thorough misunderstanding of marx and marxism. the core marxist argument is that capitalism does a great job of generating wealth, but a terrible job of distributing it. this crappy distribution leads to enormous wealth concentration, enormous political corruption, and a de facto caste system (a hereditary aristocracy that is exactly what capitalism arose against the first place). in short, the internal logic of capitalism would create such tension that it would pull itself apart in a violent overthrow of the ruling class. the corrective system would be socialism, with its enormous state apparatus, but people would come to understand that the state is just as likely to abuse power, and so the state would wither away because no one would support it. hence the commune--small settlements with short chains of accountability, so that anyone who rises in power can get smacked down. hence utopia. |
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