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Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:24:20 PM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:

Slight problem with this.  There are a LOT of them out there, and they'll take society down with them if they just get a "Let them eat cake" response.
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Right, which means it will require more technical skills and intelligence to get a job and be useful in the new "AI" market.

The moron burger flippers should starve when this happens. Darwin wills it.

Slight problem with this.  There are a LOT of them out there, and they'll take society down with them if they just get a "Let them eat cake" response.


If it weren't for the government telling them "no" they could save up some cash, buy a food cart and go sell "handmade, authentic, original recipe" burgers in the park for 2X what a Big Mac costs.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:25:25 PM EDT
[#2]
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More likely, dysfunctional culture leads to both poverty and crime.
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Now?  Yes.  

In the future automation will lead to poverty as it replaces large swaths of current jobs.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:26:01 PM EDT
[#3]
O teh noes,  autos will  put the buggy whip makers out of business! Universal communist income for all!

Stupid horseshit.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:28:10 PM EDT
[#4]
IMHO, the only thing that is going to save this World is if we get a plague that takes out 1/3rd-1/2 the population.

Automated this, automated that... Pretty soon the robots are making the robots. Low income and lower middle income people are going to have a very tight job market, would cause problems. I'll be dead by then so...
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:29:49 PM EDT
[#5]
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Musk might be a smart guy and skilled at getting people to fund his interests, but he's wrong about this.
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Like all things, it depends on the execution. UBI and UHC have their merits, even from a financially conservative perspective, but they depend on the population (and its values) to succeed. They're enlightened and sustainable methodologies but the vast majority of Americans aren't mature enough to participate. Then there's the realistic part of it... Do you really expect our politicians to not fuck it up?
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:30:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Elon Musk the guy who's become a billionaire by having the government underwrite an otherwise unworkable business model.  I don't want to live in his world.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:32:14 PM EDT
[#7]
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The failure to understand free markets is remarkable here.
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Actually its more your failing... Movies and music did not become cheaper with the elimination of  media and , brick / mortar stores as their primary means of distribution.  

Thats just one example I can think of off the top of my head. People  make the incortect assumption that things become cheaper as technology advanced and creates new solutions / delivery methods.  This is just not always the case.

Also consider that govt is already studying the implications of a near future work force dominated by ai / robotics , and how they will apply an "income tax" on robot  workers to offset the loss of taxes paid by human workers.

This is a much more complicated subject than you might imagine.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:33:45 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:


This is true the burger will not become significantly cheaper .
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It will be $2.50 at a minimum.  They know you're willing to pay that, so why would they drop the price?


This is true the burger will not become significantly cheaper .

So sell it for $2.25 and you will steal his customers.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:37:00 PM EDT
[#9]
I do not want to live in that world at that point you're just a drone and a parasite
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:37:06 PM EDT
[#10]
Musk is an epic fucktard.   The future will be different, but I now know that it won't be what Musk predicts.  Simply because he predicted it.   Besides he'll be on Mars...
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:38:32 PM EDT
[#11]
What if automation was strictly limited to gov't jobs and farming? Lower taxes and no competition in the private sector?
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:39:39 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:
Automation is happening and it is going to be a major issue and I honestly have no idea what a real "solution" to it will be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb0Kzb3haK8

https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2015/02/05/screen-shot-2015-02-05-at-3.31.37-pm_wide-4d717d2b8b195d2a98b70cd42ed16ee61fb4d365.png?s=1400
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John Connor will lead the resistance.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:40:09 PM EDT
[#13]
So I guess the obvious question is "What round for Robots".
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:40:10 PM EDT
[#14]
This is how we get Mega Man. So excited!
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:40:12 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:

So sell it for $2.25 and you will steal his customers.
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Ok look at it like this. airlines raised their rates several years ago citing rising fuel. They also started charing money to check bags , etc. Well fuel is dirt cheap right now.  I guess if you want to be the spitrit air of burgers that will work.  Ill sell the 2.50 burger for 1.50.   Want ketchup thats  50 cents  please...
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:41:00 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:


Actually its more your failing... Movies and music did not become cheaper with the elimination of  media and , brick / mortar stores as their primary means of distribution.  

Thats just one example I can think of off the top of my head. People  make the incortect assumption that things become cheaper as technology advanced and creates new solutions / delivery methods.  This is just not always the case.

Also consider that govt is already studying the implications of a near future work force dominated by ai / robotics , and how they will apply an "income tax" on robot  workers to offset the loss of taxes paid by human workers.

This is a much more complicated subject than you might imagine.
View Quote


Exactly
What will be done with the millions of displaced workers globally ?  
What about the millions coming of working age with no jobs available ?
Future workers who are unable to meet standards of the day for a job of the future ?
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:41:28 PM EDT
[#17]
Why produce the goods in the first place?

Who are the consumers of the goods produced by automation in this scenario?

The proposal sounds like they want to pay UI to everyone so they can buy the things produced by automation...which in turn funds UI.  What's the point?

Kinda reminiscent of Wile E. Coyote sitting in a sailboat with a fan.

Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:41:46 PM EDT
[#18]
My robot army >>> your robot army.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:43:27 PM EDT
[#19]
I was just thinking about this today.  AI and automation will replace a lot of unskilled jobs.  It will replace a lot of skilled jobs as well.  I'm in engineering and can even see AI potentially taking my job at some point.  We are already using AI to improve some results.

What the heck do you do with people who can't find work in that world?  

I don't know what the answer is.  Hope it isn't the Soylent Green factory!
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:45:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Initially it's easy to be opposed to the idea of UI, but it actually starts making sense when you think about it.  
-Without a UI the masses of unemployed workers will just turn to crime or riot, and society will need to spend a huge amount of money fighting against this and locking people up in prison.  The amount of money currently spent to incarcerate a prisoner for a year could easily be used to instead pay them a UI and avoid the financial motivation for crime in the first place.
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Except what will really happen is that a few wealthy people will own all the robots while the masses will be kept in line by a powerful police force.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:45:55 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:


Exactly
What will be done with the millions of displaced workers globally ?  
What about the millions coming of working age with no jobs available ?
Future workers who are unable to meet standards of the day for a job of the future ?
View Quote


I agree and its a serious logical fallacy to assume that just because new jobs are created  there will be suffecient jobs to fill the gap.  Society always has lower tiers  who cannot or will not rise to the challenges.  We are at a precipice now though where the ditch digger jobs are disappearing.  Its a new dawn
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:46:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:46:59 PM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:48:30 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:


Except what will really happen is that a few wealthy people will own all the robots while the masses will be kept in line by a powerful police force.
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Quoted:


Except what will really happen is that a few wealthy people will own all the robots while the masses will be kept in line by a powerful police force.


Quoted:
Musk is an epic fucktard.   The future will be different, but I now know that it won't be what Musk predicts.  Simply because he predicted it.   Besides he'll be on Mars...


I actually think that he is a genius however he seems completely oblivious to human nature.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:50:03 PM EDT
[#25]
One must appreciate how half of the responses to this issue, which is guaranteed to become a real thing, are just asinine "well fuck Elon Musk" type comments.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:50:47 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:


I agree and its a serious logical fallacy to assume that just because new jobs are created  there will be suffecient jobs to fill the gap.  Society always has lower tiers  who cannot or will not rise to the challenges.  We are at a precipice now though where the ditch digger jobs are disappearing.  Its a new dawn
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Not ony menial labor jobs but retail jobs will take a huge hit in the coming years.   Buying on the internet has already closed many retail outlets and most if not all will probably be gone in the future with small, specialized shops being an exception.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:51:17 PM EDT
[#27]
I'd imagine the population of a country that had UBI would be hilariously worthless.   Just a bunch of government teet-suckers.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:54:35 PM EDT
[#28]
Elon Musk lives in a microcosm of upper-class people. He doesn't realize humans can do things more efficiently than robots. 
You can go to a cafeteria where your meal comes from a vending machine and you just pay, open a door, get your food and go. No need to have a waiter, order taker or cashier. 
You can push this to other business ideas and have a bar where you go up to a vending machine, select your drink and it gets dispensed, but you don't get the "bartender" interaction. But do you really want to do that?
You can have pizza delivered to you by a person. He drives to your house in a car, walks up to your house or apartment, and drops it off and gets paid. The cost of making a remote controlled car, and a robot to drop it off would be in the millions, and that's just for the prototype. Why do that when you can pay a person less than $10 an hour to do that with his car that costs less than $10,000 unless he's a well off pizza delivery guy.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:54:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Hmmm,  seems like I've heard something about this before.

Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:55:13 PM EDT
[#30]
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Quoted:

Ownership is the solution.  I own part of my companies, you own part of your companies.  We trade the low cost goods our companies produce for money we spend at other companies producing low cost goods.  Own enough stock and you don't need to work, you just have to have robots/other people working for you.
View Quote

What does that mean?  Handing out unearned stock will have the same personal/societal affect that handing out unearned cash does today.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:55:46 PM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:


Not ony menial labor jobs but retail jobs will take a huge hit in the coming years.   Buying on the internet has already closed many retail outlets and most if not all will probably be gone in the future with small, specialized shops being an exception.
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As I stated earlier white collar is far from immune...
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:56:39 PM EDT
[#32]
I like to think that there will be plenty of work to do in the future associated with extraplanetary colonization. Can't come soon enough
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:58:31 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:
Elon Musk lives in a microcosm of upper-class people. He doesn't realize humans can do things more efficiently than robots. 
You can go to a cafeteria where your meal comes from a vending machine and you just pay, open a door, get your food and go. No need to have a waiter, order taker or cashier. 
You can push this to other business ideas and have a bar where you go up to a vending machine, select your drink and it gets dispensed, but you don't get the "bartender" interaction. But do you really want to do that?
You can have pizza delivered to you by a person. He drives a car, walks up and drops it off. The cost of making a remote controlled car, and a robot to drop it off would be in the millions. Why do that when you can pay a person less than $10 an hour to do that with his car that costs less than $10,000 unless he's a well off pizza delivery guy.
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At least that much, and if you were only making one or two it wouldn't make sense. But then look at other applications for the systems that would take, all sorts of automated vehicles, then applications beyond vehicles. Then figure you'll end up making thousands, or tens of thousands of those vehicles. Then you've got all the other vehicles that use much of the same technology. Then you don't have a driver that fails to show up for his shift. I can go on and on. Eventually the costs are so spread out that it does make sense.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:58:58 PM EDT
[#34]
Humanity will survive and improve by absorbing technology and becoming enhanced. Training will eventually become as simple as an upload. There will be no robot or AI takeover because truly sentient AI is not possible.
AI will look and seem sentient and will even pass the turing test but will be absolutely no match for human creativity as we continue to evolve into bio-computerized hybrids.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 5:59:56 PM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:
Right, which means it will require more technical skills and intelligence to get a job and be useful in the new "AI" market.
View Quote

Computers are starting to take over white-collar and even creative jobs.

No one is immune.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:00:18 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Elon Musk lives in a microcosm of upper-class people. He doesn't realize humans can do things more efficiently than robots. 
You can go to a cafeteria where your meal comes from a vending machine and you just pay, open a door, get your food and go. No need to have a waiter, order taker or cashier. 
You can push this to other business ideas and have a bar where you go up to a vending machine, select your drink and it gets dispensed, but you don't get the "bartender" interaction. But do you really want to do that?
You can have pizza delivered to you by a person. He drives a car, walks up and drops it off. The cost of making a remote controlled car, and a robot to drop it off would be in the millions. Why do that when you can pay a person less than $10 an hour to do that with his car that costs less than $10,000 unless he's a well off pizza delivery guy.
View Quote


Here is the problem, you are missing a key component of why machines are better.  Its extremely expensive now to use humans and as we stare the $15 minimum wage in the face , its just cheaper to not use people.  Basic wage , benefits, unemployment, social security, etc. etc....  support staff for the production people(HR, managers , and on , and on.... )  its a waterfall.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:00:47 PM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:
My robot army >>> your robot army.
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Here you go.  I've heard this basic argument from very liberal people several times recently.  I always point it how much easier and cheaper it will simply be to leverage this amazing automation technology and build an army of hunter/killer drones.  Plebes feel like rioting?  Send in the drones!  None of them liked this thought.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:02:01 PM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:
Yes, but you don't know what jobs the future will bring.
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I know that.  I don't want to sound like a Luddite.

It's generally a given that the transition from a manufacturing economy to a service economy has been hell on the lower-middle class.  What happens when the service economy disappears, when a McDonald's is managed by one MIT grad and three ITT Tech workers on rotating shifts?

Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:02:25 PM EDT
[#39]
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Quoted:

What does that mean?  Handing out unearned stock will have the same personal/societal affect that handing out unearned cash does today.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:

Ownership is the solution.  I own part of my companies, you own part of your companies.  We trade the low cost goods our companies produce for money we spend at other companies producing low cost goods.  Own enough stock and you don't need to work, you just have to have robots/other people working for you.

What does that mean?  Handing out unearned stock will have the same personal/societal affect that handing out unearned cash does today.

It means that if you want to prepare for the future, it's a good idea to not live paycheck to paycheck with no investments.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:04:18 PM EDT
[#40]
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Quoted:
O teh noes,  autos will  put the buggy whip makers out of business! Universal communist income for all!

Stupid horseshit.
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Good luck with that.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:05:08 PM EDT
[#41]
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Quoted:

Computers are starting to take over white-collar and even creative jobs.

No one is immune.
View Quote


Quoted for truth and most people including 95% of GD just does not understand the pace at which design/  implementation is occurring. Wal Mart is less than 3 years from deploying inventory robots in stores, and GE has HAD FDA approval for a while now on a fully tested and functional robotic anesthesiologist.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:05:46 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
-Without a UI the masses of unemployed workers will just turn to crime or riot, and society will need to spend a huge amount of money fighting against this and locking people up in prison.
View Quote


Basically Musk is saying what the Left has been doing for decades: appeasement.

He's saying that unless you appease some class you'll have civil unrest.  Appeasement never works.  No demand is ever satisfied by appeasement, and the demands always grow.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:07:54 PM EDT
[#43]
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Quoted:


Basically Musk is saying what the Left has been doing for decades: appeasement.

He's saying that unless you appease some class you'll have civil unrest.  Appeasement never works.  No demand is ever satisfied by appeasement, and the demands always grow.
View Quote


Friedman also advocated a UBI. It would actually save the country money assuming other entitlements were scrapped.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:10:12 PM EDT
[#44]
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Quoted:


Friedman also advocated a UBI. It would actually save the country money assuming other entitlements were scrapped.
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Quoted:
Quoted:


Basically Musk is saying what the Left has been doing for decades: appeasement.

He's saying that unless you appease some class you'll have civil unrest.  Appeasement never works.  No demand is ever satisfied by appeasement, and the demands always grow.


Friedman also advocated a UBI. It would actually save the country money assuming other entitlements were scrapped.

It also assumes that the shitbirds would be appeased by whatever UBI we gave them. It doesn't seem to work now.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:10:24 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Elon Musk lives in a microcosm of upper-class people. He doesn't realize humans can do things more efficiently than robots. 
You can go to a cafeteria where your meal comes from a vending machine and you just pay, open a door, get your food and go. No need to have a waiter, order taker or cashier. 
You can push this to other business ideas and have a bar where you go up to a vending machine, select your drink and it gets dispensed, but you don't get the "bartender" interaction. But do you really want to do that?
You can have pizza delivered to you by a person. He drives to your house in a car, walks up to your house or apartment, and drops it off and gets paid. The cost of making a remote controlled car, and a robot to drop it off would be in the millions, and that's just for the prototype. Why do that when you can pay a person less than $10 an hour to do that with his car that costs less than $10,000 unless he's a well off pizza delivery guy.
View Quote


The cost of the technology will go down with time..as "we" perfect it.

Also, I could give two fucks less about the "bartender" experience..let alone having a person fuck up my order.

Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:13:20 PM EDT
[#46]
Humans will simple adapt and evolve new wet-ware. We will change with our surroundings. We will not cease to exist. Training will become VERY simple.
Humanity has as much of a survival instinct as any other organism. Trans-humanism, as weird as it sounds, will become real.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:13:36 PM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:

It means that if you want to prepare for the future, it's a good idea to not live paycheck to paycheck with no investments.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Ownership is the solution.  I own part of my companies, you own part of your companies.  We trade the low cost goods our companies produce for money we spend at other companies producing low cost goods.  Own enough stock and you don't need to work, you just have to have robots/other people working for you.

What does that mean?  Handing out unearned stock will have the same personal/societal affect that handing out unearned cash does today.

It means that if you want to prepare for the future, it's a good idea to not live paycheck to paycheck with no investments.

That is literally preaching-to-the-choir advice.

Those with the means to save and the wherewithal to plan for the future are not the immediate problem, and the immediate problem is only going to get worse and spread as time passes.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:14:16 PM EDT
[#48]
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Quoted:

It also assumes that the shitbirds would be appeased by whatever UBI we gave them. It doesn't seem to work now.
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Thats a question not related dirrctely to the ascendence of our robot over lords, but the ecomic crash we will see in the very near future.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:14:39 PM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:22:32 PM EDT
[#50]
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Quoted:
Marxists. LOL.

Marx predicted the collapse of capitalism. The argument was that the advance of capitalism would produce enough to meet everyone's needs, so there would be no need for further large scale production. That was supposed to set in motion the events leading to communist utopia.

That was, of course, followed by the Population Bomb predictions of mass starvation due to over population.
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this is a pretty thorough misunderstanding of marx and marxism.  the core marxist argument is that capitalism does a great job of generating wealth, but a terrible job of distributing it.  this crappy distribution leads to enormous wealth concentration, enormous political corruption, and a de facto caste system (a hereditary aristocracy that is exactly what capitalism arose against the first place).  in short, the internal logic of capitalism would create such tension that it would pull itself apart in a violent overthrow of the ruling class.  the corrective system would be socialism, with its enormous state apparatus, but people would come to understand that the state is just as likely to abuse power, and so the state would wither away because no one would support it.  hence the commune--small settlements with short chains of accountability, so that anyone who rises in power can get smacked down.  hence utopia.
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