Quoted: This is one of the biggest problems that many have with understanding Christianity.  They think that we need to be "good people" for God to love us and answer our prayers. Christianity is not about being good. It is about a relationship with Jesus.  If we trust Him as our Savior, we are saved and are God's children. But we will still sin on a daily basis.  Hopefully, we will be constantly trying to do better and better, but we also know that we will not be 100% successful. Therefore, God tells us that we should simply ask forgivness, He will forgive us, and we go on about life. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do not think that the "name it and claim it" televangelists are preaching the true Gospel.  God's will for us may not be a bed of roses. Many great people in God's family have died on the foreign mission fields doing His work.  They were Joyful in His service, but not "prosperous".  At least, not in this life. God's will for me may lead down hard paths.  But I know one thing for sure, Jesus will walk with me, holding my hand.

One clarification and one disagreement:

God's will for us might not be a bed of roses, but it's possible to find happiness in the face of hardship.  There is a difference between pleasure and true happiness.  I'd probably like to sit around on the beach all day getting drunk and with a bikini-clad girl on each arm, but I doubt that would make me truly happy.  A lot depends on your criteria for happiness.

The disagreement with Christianity comes in with the whole "relationship with Christ" part.  My wife is Jewish, and doesn't believe in Christ (naturally).  Those who claim the only way into heaven is to believe in Christ cannot be correct; my wife is the poster candidate for sainthood, and if she doesn't get in, we are all screwed (if there is in fact a heaven and what it's nature is, which is another argument entirely).  I can't believe an infinate being would ignore much of the world's population based on one detail alone, despite the fact that they have faith in the same God and follow his commandments just as devotedly as do many Christians.  If one were to change the phrase to "relationship with God", I would be more inclined to agree with the statement.

Quoted: God helps those that help themselves.

This is a popular quote among the "self-reliant" folks.

But it is found nowhere in the Bible.

God does not "help those that help themselves".

God helps those that have come to the realization that they cannot help themselves and have turned to the Infinite God of the Universe to help them.

Matthew 11:28   Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Quoted: God helps those that help themselves.

Sorry, but this is man's saying...  this is not in scripture (the bible)...  its a false hood of sorts...

The bible does say to believers to not feed those who are not 'willing' to work... but thats about as close as it gets to this...    

More to the point we are commanded to love one an another, and to do onto others as we would have them do onto us....    so help yourself, but not to the detriment of others...  always treat others with the same consideration and love you'd like to recieve yourself...

These are in accordance to the scriptures.  Beware of folk sayings.

Top_prop

Quoted: I think it's more that God has a plan for what will happen. However,there are different options or routes for Him to accomplish what He wants to occur. We pray and request that if something is compatible with His will that He would cause it to happen. It's our free will interacting with His plan for the future. It may or may not be in His will to heal someone. There may be some reason for them to be sick (perhaps it's the only way to draw them closer to a relationship with Him). We don't know, so the best we can do is ask. The thing to keep in mind is the concept that God's sole focus is on the afterlife. What happens here on Earth is just "practice". Anyone who has Biblical source that conflicts with this,please correct me.

I believe that covers it right there.

Some of you guys think to much.


Someones the best answer is "That's just the way it is"


Don't over analize...just do it.


SGtar15

Quoted: Quoted: This is one of the biggest problems that many have with understanding Christianity.  They think that we need to be "good people" for God to love us and answer our prayers. Christianity is not about being good. It is about a relationship with Jesus.  If we trust Him as our Savior, we are saved and are God's children. But we will still sin on a daily basis.  Hopefully, we will be constantly trying to do better and better, but we also know that we will not be 100% successful. Therefore, God tells us that we should simply ask forgivness, He will forgive us, and we go on about life. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do not think that the "name it and claim it" televangelists are preaching the true Gospel.  God's will for us may not be a bed of roses. Many great people in God's family have died on the foreign mission fields doing His work.  They were Joyful in His service, but not "prosperous".  At least, not in this life. God's will for me may lead down hard paths.  But I know one thing for sure, Jesus will walk with me, holding my hand. One clarification and one disagreement: God's will for us might not be a bed of roses, but it's possible to find happiness in the face of hardship.  There is a difference between pleasure and true happiness.  I'd probably like to sit around on the beach all day getting drunk and with a bikini-clad girl on each arm, but I doubt that would make me truly happy.  A lot depends on your criteria for happiness. The disagreement with Christianity comes in with the whole "relationship with Christ" part.  My wife is Jewish, and doesn't believe in Christ (naturally).  Those who claim the only way into heaven is to believe in Christ cannot be correct; my wife is the poster candidate for sainthood, and if she doesn't get in, we are all screwed (if there is in fact a heaven and what it's nature is, which is another argument entirely).  I can't believe an infinate being would ignore much of the world's population based on one detail alone, despite the fact that they have faith in the same God and follow his commandments just as devotedly as do many Christians.  If one were to change the phrase to "relationship with God", I would be more inclined to agree with the statement.

Salvation is not earned. It is given by Christ. The Bible proclaims that no one is good, not one person in this whole earth outside of Jesus Himself is worthy to be called good. We are MADE good by the work of Christ.

No one can earn their way into heaven with good deeds. No one "deserves" to be in the presence of God. We are MADE worthy by the blood of Christ.

That is the flaw in your thinking.

Quoted: ..... The disagreement with Christianity comes in with the whole "relationship with Christ" part.  My wife is Jewish, and doesn't believe in Christ (naturally).  Those who claim the only way into heaven is to believe in Christ cannot be correct; my wife is the poster candidate for sainthood, and if she doesn't get in, we are all screwed (if there is in fact a heaven and what it's nature is, which is another argument entirely).  I can't believe an infinate being would ignore much of the world's population based on one detail alone, despite the fact that they have faith in the same God and follow his commandments just as devotedly as do many Christians.  If one were to change the phrase to "relationship with God", I would be more inclined to agree with the statement.

Dear The_Neutral_Observer:

See the red above... its exactly right... we are all not worthy...   we are all "screwed"

Grace is by definition: Unwarented Favor...    Our Faith in God's grace... his unwarrented love for us, his undeserved sacrifice of the only one who ever warrented favor (Jesus) is the payment for our short commings.

Love is by the biblical defination:  desireing the absolute best for someone...

Lets look some of  the 10 commandments:

Love the Lord God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul...  can we really say that we do this...   how many times have we known one of these commandments but figured we'd do what we wanted... is that loving God?

Love your Neighbor (probably a better translation would be those who you interact with) as you love yourself...  (jesus put it to us as: doing onto others as you'd have them do unto you)...   how many times have we wanted to rid ourselves of the trouble of around us?  Or plain just not cared what they wanted.

How about:  Do not commit adultry...  ok maybe you've never slept with ANYONE but your wife... but then Jesus throughs a zinger to us saying that if we even 'look' at another woman with lust in our heart we've commited adultry...  whoa, who's not guilty of that.    BOTD anyone?

Do not steal... ever taken -anything- that wasn't yours?

Do not lie... ever told a fib?

I'm not here to condem you.. .the Truth condems us...  its all over the writings in the new testment that these laws only condem us, but it is Christ who saves us.  (the part of the bible written by those who were chosen by, their servents, or those personaly new Christ is known as the new testement)

I highly encourage anyone, whatever their stance on this to read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel.   He started out with the intention of debunking Christianity after his wife got saved, and life at home got better...   He has degree in law from Havard but made his living as an investgative reporter...   so he dug into all this stuff deep.. but the title shades some light on his final conclusion.

He interviews some Jews that came to believe Christ was their messiah in his quest to get to the bottom of all this....  this may be interesting to you...

$.02 more

James 5:16b The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Prayer DOES change things.  No, God does not change his character.  But he does do things in answer to prayer.  

Someone's sickness may be an ANSWER to prayer.  For instance,  you are a Christian and you pray for your natural  brother who is lost and on his way to hell.  You pray fervently and ask God to intercede in your brother's life because you do not want him to die and go to hell.

Contrary to the man-made doctrine of Calvinism (note that the doctrine is named for a MAN),  God does not FORCE someone to become a believer against their will.  Nor will a man's prayers SAVE another man' soul.  But God can and does ACT to change circumstances in answer to prayer.

That lost brother was healthy, had money in his pocket and didn't think he needed God.  But because of prayer, God intervenes and the brother gets sick.  Now that brother has another reason to reconsider his mortality and where he will spend eternity.  And he might just decide to repent of his sins and trust what Jesus accomplished on the cross when he died for our sins, was buried and rose again from the dead.

Or, the brother may not.  

God might not answer your prayer the way you want him to, though.  Or he may not answer it at all.  Or he might do just what you asked him to,  AND MORE.

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

God is trustworthy.

If you are saved, you can cry out to him, and he will hear your prayers.

If you are not saved, why not?

God has proved he loves you and wants a relationship with you.  He proved it on a cross.

The question is, do you want a relationship with God?

"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer." - - anonymous

Quoted: "Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer." - - anonymous

Idiots can be anonymous too.

Quoted: Quoted: "Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer." - - anonymous Idiots can be anonymous too. hr

+1

Quoted: Salvation is not earned. It is given by Christ. The Bible proclaims that no one is good, not one person in this whole earth outside of Jesus Himself is worthy to be called good. We are MADE good by the work of Christ. No one can earn their way into heaven with good deeds. No one "deserves" to be in the presence of God. We are MADE worthy by the blood of Christ. That is the flaw in your thinking.

So does Christ give salvation to all, or just Christians?  Is over 75% of the world's population condemned to Hell because of the fact they don't believe that Christ was the son of God or because they believe in good works?

Top:

I've read that book.  Some parts were good; most parts were not that impressive (or really objective, either).  

I've also heard the "going to Hell" speech before; it doesn't faze me because I've never claimed to be a good person.  I don't give much credence to the whole "you'll get an eternity of punishment if you interpret the Bible differently" line of thinking anyway.  Are you 100% sure that your interpretation is correct?  Because if your proposition is correct, you can't afford any mistakes in that regard.  If I were a lowly man trying to interpret the will of a supreme being who created the universe, I'd be a bit more cautious before I finally made a decision and stuck with it.  But that is just my opinion on the matter.

The bottom line is that my wife is Jewish, has no intention of abandoning her faith, and I fully intend to go where she does after death.  Whether that place is rotting in the dirt, Heaven, or Hell is immaterial.  I'd like to think she'd be rewarded for her acts her on earth, and for her faith in God (the same one, by the way).  Her religion may be different, but her faith in God is every bit as real and devoted as any Christian's.  As to whether that is enough, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: God helps those that help themselves. This is a popular quote among the "self-reliant" folks. But it is found nowhere in the Bible. God does not "help those that help themselves". God helps those that have come to the realization that they cannot help themselves and have turned to the Infinite God of the Universe to help them. Matthew 11:28   Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. I'm Catholic,

Good for you.

tradition is also part of our beliefs.

If your tradition is in conflict with God's Perfect Word, they are wrong.  You need to change your traditions.  

Quoted: Quoted: Salvation is not earned. It is given by Christ. The Bible proclaims that no one is good, not one person in this whole earth outside of Jesus Himself is worthy to be called good. We are MADE good by the work of Christ. No one can earn their way into heaven with good deeds. No one "deserves" to be in the presence of God. We are MADE worthy by the blood of Christ. That is the flaw in your thinking. So does Christ give salvation to all, or just Christians?  Is over 75% of the world's population condemned to Hell because of the fact they don't believe that Christ was the son of God or because they believe in good works?

  " 4But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. " Titus 3:4-7

" 6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.  7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
8Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
9Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves." John 14

I am not telling you what I think on the matter. I am not giving my judgement that people are unworthy. I am not giving you my take on who deserves heaven and who deserves hell. All I am doing is telling you the truth of what God's Word says. Jesus Christ alone is our way to redemption, for no man can earn it.

This is basically our situation. We are inside a pit with wild beasts. Eventually the beasts will consume us. Along comes a man named Jesus who offers us His hand to pull us out. If we reject Him, we reject our only chance of survival.

It is that simple.

"Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11This is the "stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'[1]  12Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."  Acts 4

The bottom line is that my wife is Jewish, has no intention of abandoning her faith, and I fully intend to go where she does after death.  Whether that place is rotting in the dirt, Heaven, or Hell is immaterial.  I'd like to think she'd be rewarded for her acts her on earth, and for her faith in God (the same one, by the way).  Her religion may be different, but her faith in God is every bit as real and devoted as any Christian's.  As to whether that is enough, we will just have to agree to disagree.

You are not disagreeing with me, but with God here. That is the difference.

Let us consider who God is: The Unsearchable and Infinite One who dwells outside of time and space. Man cannot know One such as this except that the One reveals Himself to us.

But if we reject the revelation, what hope is there for us?

Chrisitans are supposed to do good works, but not because it earns us anything. We are supposed to be like our Savior, who did good for people all the days of His earthly ministry. So too we are supposed to do good to others. The huge outpouring of compassion for the hurricane victims in churches all across the land who are mobilizing to send help is proof of this. Jesus said that if we give so much as a cup of cold water in His name, that it is seen of heaven and recorded.

But this does not make Christians good people, and it does not earn them entry into heaven. Does God judge us by the standards of men, or by His own righteousness? Do you find the quality of a diamond by comparing it to a brick?

Thus in the light of God's righteousness, let us consider what Isaiah (who your wife knows about) said:

" 1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3And one cried to another and said:
       "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
       The whole earth is full of His glory!"


4And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
5So I said:


       "Woe is me, for I am undone!
       Because I am a man of unclean lips,
       And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
       For my eyes have seen the King,
       The LORD of hosts."  

Isaiah 6


No one is good compared with God. No man can look God in the face and say that He is good enough.

Christ stands as the only One who saves, the Only deliverer. Those who reject Him reject God. The Bible is that clear on the topic.

It is not what I say. It is not what Billy Graham says. It is what is written in God's word that is important. God's word is very clear on this matter....

So, Top, since you responded to the other post, I'll ask you this.  No quotes from the bible are needed here, but just plain answers.  You can probably answer these with a "yes" or "no", but go ahead and elaborate a little if you feel the need to.

So does Christ give salvation to all, or just Christians? Is over 75% of the world's population condemned to Hell because of the fact they don't believe that Christ was the son of God or because they believe in good works?

God offers salvation to ALL men.  Most don't want it.  Nonetheless, the Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.  But God does not force anyone to repent of their sins and come to him and be saved.

Christians ARE those who have repented of their sins and trusted in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ who went to the cross bearing our sins, died for those sins, and rose again from the dead.  No one is a Christian BEFORE they get saved, they BECOME a Christian when they ARE saved.

Ye MUST be born again.

The vast majority of the world wants nothing to do with God.  Most want to be THEIR OWN gOD.

And they will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

Quoted: So, Top, since you responded to the other post, I'll ask you this.  No quotes from the bible are needed here, but just plain answers.  You can probably answer these with a "yes" or "no", but go ahead and elaborate a little if you feel the need to. So does Christ give salvation to all, or just Christians? Is over 75% of the world's population condemned to Hell because of the fact they don't believe that Christ was the son of God or because they believe in good works?

Morning The_Neutral_Observer.

Even though you didn't address this to me, I will comment, if I may.

Criley has done a good job, but I'd like to clarify.

First of all, it is important for you to understand that what I will tell you isn't what Old_Painless thinks;  it is what the Bible says.  Evangelical Christians believe that the Bible is God's Perfect Word to mankind.  If we don't like what it says, too bad.  God is God.  He does as He pleases.  It is required of us to get into agreement with God.  He will not change His mind to get in agreement with us.

All that said, the Bible is very clear.. (I know you said no scripture, but I can't help myself. )

Matthew 7:13   Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14   Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

As you asked, God said that there would be "few" that are saved.  You suggested 25%.  I believe that number is high.

But the Bible is clear.  There will be few.

You also asked "does Christ give salvation to all, or just Christians".  No one is born a Christian.  You become a Christian by believing in Jesus as your Savior and asking Him for salvation.

So, while Jesus did indeed die for the salvation of all men, He knew that there would be a large number that would reject His salvation.  He only "gives" salvation to those that call on Him.  All others are lost.

Now, before you get angry with me, please realize that I am only telling you what the Bible clearly teaches.  If you don't like it, or disagree with it, then you have that right.  But you are not disagreeing with me.  You are disagreeing with the Bible.

As far as "good people" going to Hell, the Bible is clear on that as well.  It teaches that "there is none righteous, no, not one".  While we may see folks and say, "There is a righteous person", God looks at their hearts and declares, "there is none righteous, no, not one".

He has therefore supplied a way for us to become righteous enough to enter Heaven.  This salvation is in one Person.

1 John 5:11   And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12   He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

God says that.  We disagree at our peril.

But the Good News is that God loves you and your wife and wants to save you and have a wonderful relationship with you, both in this life and throughout eternity.  He is waiting for you to call upon Him.  I pray that you will.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: God helps those that help themselves. This is a popular quote among the "self-reliant" folks. But it is found nowhere in the Bible. God does not "help those that help themselves". God helps those that have come to the realization that they cannot help themselves and have turned to the Infinite God of the Universe to help them. Matthew 11:28   Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. I'm Catholic, Good for you. tradition is also part of our beliefs. If your tradition is in conflict with God's Perfect Word, they are wrong.  You need to change your traditions.   I was not trying to be rude, just explain.  Please don't be rude to me.

 

Been a while since anyone accused me of being rude.

Could you quote my rude comments?  I don't see any, but will certainly apoligize if I made any.

Of course, disagreeing with you isn't rude, it is only what we do when we debate.  I have all the respect in the world for you sherrick13.  And I am sorry if I offended you.  It was certainly not my intent.

Catholics have no problem accepting Protestants.  Why do Protestants have so many problems with Catholics?

I believe you misunderstand.

I have absolutely no problem "accepting Catholics".  I have many Catholic friends, including a Roman Catholic priest, and have many relatives that are Catholic.

But when I see error, I will speak out, (without rudeness) against it.

While I love Catholic people, I do have many problems with the thelogy of the Catholic church.  I truly believe that Catholics can be saved and on their way to Heaven.  But I believe that it will be in spite of Catholic theology, not because of it.

You see, as an Evangelical Christian, I firmly believe that we are saved through belief in Jesus,  nothing else.  All Catholic traditions cannot save anyone.  None of their rituals will save anyone.

Only the blood of Jesus will do that.  And one accepts Jesus as a personal act, not as a corporate body.

In short, Catholics often believe that their participation in Roman Catholicism is what saves them.  I believe that is error.  It is their faith in Jesus that will save them, not faith in the traditions of the Catholic church.

If you have accepted Jesus as your Savior, then I hope (and expect) to see you in Heaven.

In the mean time, forget traditions.  Depend on the Bible.  It is God's Perfect Word.

Quoted:  Catholics have no problem accepting Protestants.  Why do Protestants have so many problems with Catholics?

Here's a thought -

Neither Catholics nor Protestants should be too worried of being accepted by each other.

BOTH should worry only of being "accepted" by God.

Where I've been "unaccepting" of Catholics is only in areas where I beleive they do things unacceptable to God.

I consider relaying such info to  be a favor and a kindness, and would be VERY appreciative if Catholics should relay to me where they think I do things unacceptable to God.

Quoted: So, Top, since you responded to the other post, I'll ask you this.  No quotes from the bible are needed here, but just plain answers.  You can probably answer these with a "yes" or "no", but go ahead and elaborate a little if you feel the need to. So does Christ give salvation to all, or just Christians? Is over 75% of the world's population condemned to Hell because of the fact they don't believe that Christ was the son of God or because they believe in good works?

man... I just type an hour long reply to this... and now its jsut gone... technical difficulties please    stand by.....

I hate to be condeming... I hope you don't see it that way.   The simple answers are tough.   The answers in the quotes are the sucinctist, shortest answers as I see them.   I believe  they are the answers most of the other fellas in here has been giving you as well:

Quoted: So does Christ give salvation to all, or just Christians?

Salvation is for those who accept it.    

To accept Salvation one must truely humble themselves as a repentant sinner... ask Him into their heart, to live in their heart as their Lord.

These are who I refer to as Christians.  So YES only Christians recieve salvation.

Quoted: Is over 75% of the world's population condemned to Hell because of the fact they don't believe that Christ was the son of God or because they believe in good works?

1.  Only God knows the percentage of folks going to Hell.
2.  If you don't believe you cannot accept... see the answer to the quote above.
3.  None of our works are worth anything...  its somewhat like a perfect scent is required to get into heaven... say you've got to smell better than a rose...   how can a pig, that loves to wallow in its own crap ever clean itself up enough to smell like a rose...  It just can't happen.

No Christ,  No forgiveness,  No Heavenly Kingdom.

Amplification:

Sin is an infraction against God's perfection...   There will be a judment.   All will be found guilty, and have nothing to offer.   But for those who ask Christ to the trial prior to the trial date (death) he'll come in when the verdict is rendered and say:  "I paid for that smelly pig with my perfectness,  I love him,  he is my faithful servant, and is welcome in my home."  

God has always required a payment for Sin.   Before Christ there were sacrifices in the temple.   A lamb was slaughered... there was shedding of blood.   That is what Christ was for us... the perfect lamb whos blood was spilled as payment for sin.   Jesus was God...  God shed his own blood to cleanse us.   He did it Himself.

You see once someone accepts Christ God stops seeing the pig (sinner) and sees us as cleansed as if we were His perfect Son.

If one has heard this.   God's plan has been put to them.   If one rejects it they've rejected God.  

He loves you, and wants you close despite your filth, but its like a rebellous child... you've got to leave the rebellious child to wallow in their own messed up ways.   You truely desire them to come back... to find their way.  But you can't stop them from hurting themselves, and often enough that child never makes it back.    But sometimes they see the folly of there ways,  they humble themselves and are welcomed with warm arms.    Jesus told parrables such as this.

He's calling all of us, all we have to to is call back to Him and He'll be right there.   He aches for us to call out to him.  Now... Today.

[edited for spelling]

So, to put it in two sentences:

Belief in Jesus (summarizing all you said about faith in Christ as your savior) = Heaven
Any other belief = Hell

Correct?

Quoted: So, to put it in two sentences: Belief in Jesus (summarizing all you said about faith in Christ as your savior) = Heaven Any other belief = Hell Correct?

Neutral Obs:

I'm assuming you are addressing me specifically... though I feel its the same as the other believers here have been telling you:

But like I said...  accepting him as Lord... that means he's your boss... your role model...  IF  that is what you infer by belief, yes then anthing else is separation from God: Hell.  (that is the best defintion of Hell... God is everything good... being separated from that is Hell)  

But even Jesus said that he wasn't here to condem; he was here to save.   That he didn't condem us but the truth that he spoke condems us (because we don't head it)...

I pray that you keep an open mind and seek the truth here.    Don't just go off your gut if this pains you... like I said before the first step to Salvation is humbling one's self as a sinner... admiting that we fell short the moment we came out of the womb.    When this starts working at us, when it tugs at our hearts, some turn there back and shun it away... others acknowledge it and turn to Christ.

If what the bible says is true... that All have sinned and fallen short... then how could we of ourselves really know good... if we are pigs wallowing in our own feces, and thinking its the best thing ever... how could we concieve the sweat beauty and perfection of the rose (God's pefection)?

That is Why old_painless was mentioning about being on the beach with a hottie on each arm... pleasureful... yes, but fleating and meaningless as well.

One thing about Christianity that we haven't touched on is peace...   that is what truely accepting Christ as ones savior is about...   that doesn't mean life is gonna be simple and rosie... the bible promises quite the opposite.   But living day by day for Jesus takes the worry out of where the next meal is gonna come from or whether you are gonna be successful, or if you can't get that 6.5 Grendal upper you got your eye on before dear season  you aren't gonna be happy type stuff...  

Things of this world start to loose thier charm, and the people of this world begin to become your concern...   Becoming a Christian has changed my life...  all for the better.

When my wife became a Christian, our marriage became undescribably sweeter... everthing just got better an better.  And I aint saying that because we got a new car, her boobs got bigger, or we moved into a bigger house, or she let me buy more Ammo and guns....  [edit to add: other than the boobs all of that has happend...] But our hearts, our patience, our love continually grows stronger, and this is from non other than God.

Here is another question.

What about some broke, uneducated tribesman named Mobutu in the jungles of Africa.  What happens if he lives his entire life without ever even hearing about Christianity and Christ?  What if, through no fault of his own, he never hears the word of God?  Is Mobutu condemned to Hell because his circumstances were unfortunate enough to be born into an impoverished, isolated area of Africa and he never had the chance to become educated and exposed to Christ?

What about babies who die during birth or before they are old enough to comprehend such things as Christianity or Christ?  What happens to them?

Quoted: Here is another question. What about some broke, uneducated tribesman named Mobutu in the jungles of Africa.  What happens if he lives his entire life without ever even hearing about Christianity and Christ?  What if, through no fault of his own, he never hears the word of God?  Is Mobutu condemned to Hell because his circumstances were unfortunate enough to be born into an impoverished, isolated area of Africa and he never had the chance to become educated and exposed to Christ? What about babies who die during birth or before they are old enough to comprehend such things as Christianity or Christ?  What happens to them?

These are the age old questions...   you said you read "The Case for Christ"   well Strobel struggled with these quesions as well... and wrote "The Case for Faith"   you will find much better answers for these sorts of issues there....

I've commonly understood a couple different ways of tackling this...

First one is pretty simple:  Be cause the bible says thats how it is.

So yes, no Christ,  no heaven.... even if you we're born in timbuktoo...   however remember that we all came from adam and eve... then from Noah's family...   so at some point our ancestors turned their back on God...   and some would say that if you were to turn your back on the truth you've heard in this thread you may condem your children to the same...

But God continued to give us his word through the people he chose... the Jews

(aint it interesting that the babolonians, assirans, the eqyptians,  Caanites, etc all don't really exist as the people they were but the Jews after being scattered to the ends of the earth still have their religion, and have reclaimed there homeland and are endeavoring to rebuild their temple... is that cooincidence.. but I digress)

So the truth is out there now... and Christians are taking it to the ends of the earth (think of missionaries)  Bibles are being translate to many tounges...  that was Christ's great commision... and its part of the prophecy... that the Jews would be given the Gospel first,  by in large they would reject it and then it would be taken to the Gentiles (anyone who is not a jew is a gentile)...    Most believe the Gospel must reach the ends of the earth prior to Christ returning...

As for children dieing... most aggree that there is an age of accounatbility...  that once a child reaches that age they are spritually what you woud consider an "adult"  so if they go to trial they are tried as an 'adult'...    before that age it is usually agreed upon that Jesus would step in as their advocate.   That age however is only known to God, and most aggree it is different for each individual...

Christ tells us that we must believe in him with the faith of a child...  think of when you may have had a child jump from a precarious hight into your arms... they didn't do it unless they had total unconditional faith that you would catch them... that is our example of how we are to believe in Christ (now that doesn't mean we get to jump off an cliff and expect him to save us... thats putting God to the test, and that aint good!...   its more like the not worring about our next meal, or making the mortgage...)

I'm not the strongest person to ask these questions timeless questions of damnation.... I'm still growing in my understanding on these things....

Punish children for the sins of the father?
You must believe in the one, accepted thing under fear of eternal punishment, regardless of your actual actions and intentions?
Minor dissent and questioning is not allowed, for fear of eternal punishment?

I'm not bashing here, but this seems to me to be the dark side of Christianity.  This doesn't sound like a God that wants the best for humanity.  It does not sound like the actions of a benevolent being.  On the face of it, it sounds like a Nazi or Communist dictatorship.  It has shades of Big Brother and Thought Police.  This is why I don't agree with some of the more literal interpretations of the Bible.

If Christ and God are essentially different aspects of the same being, why can't faith in God to forgive and cleanse you of your sins be substituted for the same faith in Christ?  Why are minor variations in the details of the belief in God forbidden?  Why would poor, innocent Mobutu be punished for the sins his ancestors committed centuries before he was alive?  If God gave us a free will and the ability to interpret His word, why are we forbidden to use that ability except with the result of eternal punishment?

I'm willing to put my faith in a God that wants the best for humanity, and I even understand the need for the sacrifice of a few for the benefit of the many.  In fact, I do put my faith in that God.  But condemning 80-90% of humanity to Hell does not, to me, seem like the best thing for humanity.  I have to question your interpretation in light of some of these things you claim a benevolent God would do.

Quoted: Here is another question. What about some broke, uneducated tribesman named Mobutu in the jungles of Africa.  What happens if he lives his entire life without ever even hearing about Christianity and Christ?  What if, through no fault of his own, he never hears the word of God?  Is Mobutu condemned to Hell because his circumstances were unfortunate enough to be born into an impoverished, isolated area of Africa and he never had the chance to become educated and exposed to Christ? What about babies who die during birth or before they are old enough to comprehend such things as Christianity or Christ?  What happens to them?

What about Mobutu (or tiny children)?

I can quote Mark Twain: "I was gratified to be able to give an immediate answer.  I said, 'I don't know'."

The answer is, "I don't know."  But I do know that I serve a totally fair and just Savior Who will judge with mercy and grace.

But here's the thing......You shouldn't be too concerned with Mobutu.  You ought to be more concerned with The_Neutral_Observer.

Because one thing is for sure:  The_Neutral_Observer has heard about Jesus.  And he will be held accountable for what decision he made about Jesus.

You ask a number of interesting questions.

Quoted: Punish children for the sins of the father?

Nope.  In fact, the Bible clearly states that this will not happen.  Read your Bible.

You must believe in the one, accepted thing under fear of eternal punishment, regardless of your actual actions and intentions?

God made that rule, not me.

Minor dissent and questioning is not allowed, for fear of eternal punishment?

The Bible does not say that anywhere.  In fact, questioning is encouraged.

I'm not bashing here, but this seems to me to be the dark side of Christianity.  This doesn't sound like a God that wants the best for humanity.  It does not sound like the actions of a benevolent being.  On the face of it, it sounds like a Nazi or Communist dictatorship.  It has shades of Big Brother and Thought Police.  This is why I don't agree with some of the more literal interpretations of the Bible.

What other kind of "interpretation" would you suggest.  A "non-literal" interpretation?  One where you just say it means anything the reader wants?  If you write me a letter, should I just read what you wrote and accept it, or say, "He didn't really mean what he said".

God spoke clearly.  He meant exactly what He said.  We had better read it and listen.

If Christ and God are essentially different aspects of the same being, why can't faith in God to forgive and cleanse you of your sins be substituted for the same faith in Christ?  Why are minor variations in the details of the belief in God forbidden?

I don't know.  God wrote the rules, not me.  Why don't you ask Him?  His answers are in His Book.

Why would poor, innocent Mobutu be punished for the sins his ancestors committed centuries before he was alive?

As stated above, that will not happen.

If God gave us a free will and the ability to interpret His word, why are we forbidden to use that ability except with the result of eternal punishment?

God did not give us the "ability to interpret His word".  He gave us the responsibility to read and obey His Word.

I'm willing to put my faith in a God that wants the best for humanity,

Good.  That is what He wants.

and I even understand the need for the sacrifice of a few for the benefit of the many.

Where in the world did this come from.  This is not a Biblical idea.

In fact, I do put my faith in that God.  But condemning 80-90% of humanity to Hell does not, to me, seem like the best thing for humanity.

Well then, I guess you know more that God does.  He is the One that has designed this universe.

I have to question your interpretation in light of some of these things you claim a benevolent God would do.

It is not my "interpretation".  It is clear English.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Quoted: That is just it.  I don't think Protestants do anything by being who they are that God will not accept them.  But by following tradition God will accept us to.  God understands people will worship him in different ways.

God can ONLY be worshipped in GOD'S way. its NOT a menu we get to choose from.

re: tradition -

Whose tradition?

The only relevant question is does our tradition measure up to the standards of Scripture, God's CLEAR revelation to man of the way in which He demands we worship Him.

Quoted: Punish children for the sins of the father? You must believe in the one, accepted thing under fear of eternal punishment, regardless of your actual actions and intentions? Minor dissent and questioning is not allowed, for fear of eternal punishment?

A dim view of God. Firstly you must understand Who He is, and who we are. He is infinite, we are not. He is Creator, we are created. What right do we have to question Him about anything? God is reality. Period. He is not just some dude up there with more muscle than us. God pre-exists all reality and all life, and indeed the very fabric of existence proceed out of Him. Life is sustained by His mighty hand.

Our very heart beats at His command, not our own. Given that we cannot even exist without Him, what right do we have to question Him at all? You are making the mistake of placing God on the level with man. He is not accountable to us in any way. We can demand nothing of Him, and He can never be made to answer to us about anything.

If you make a chair, does the chair question its origin or demand an accounting of the actions of its creator? An imperfect analogy but the principle is the same.

God is a speaking God, and He will explain many things if you will listen to Him. But you must first believe He is before you are able to hear.

I'm not bashing here, but this seems to me to be the dark side of Christianity.  This doesn't sound like a God that wants the best for humanity.  It does not sound like the actions of a benevolent being.  On the face of it, it sounds like a Nazi or Communist dictatorship.  It has shades of Big Brother and Thought Police.  This is why I don't agree with some of the more literal interpretations of the Bible.

You are assuming that humanity is qualified to comment on what is best for them. They are not. Do 5 year olds understand the world better than their parents? Of course not. We accept as truth that children need parents precisely because there is so much they do not understand. How much greater is the gap between finite man and Infinite God?

Big Brother, Thought police....

All symbols of mankind and the evil that lurks within the human heart. The first thing you must understand about God is that there is absolutley no darkness, no evil in Him whatsoever. He IS perfection. He IS Holy. He IS righteous. The definitions of those words are patterned after Him, He did not pattern Himself after them. There is no evil in God, therefore we have no right to mistrust Him.

God is many things, but at heart a loving father who wants to have an intimate fellowship with each one of us. His motives are love, not malice and not glory. Think about the definition of God: He is infinite and wholely sufficient in Himself. What is there that man can offer Him? What is there that He needs from us?

God needs nothing from us, thus we can see that His motives are pure.

If Christ and God are essentially different aspects of the same being, why can't faith in God to forgive and cleanse you of your sins be substituted for the same faith in Christ?  Why are minor variations in the details of the belief in God forbidden?  Why would poor, innocent Mobutu be punished for the sins his ancestors committed centuries before he was alive?  If God gave us a free will and the ability to interpret His word, why are we forbidden to use that ability except with the result of eternal punishment?

God exists in 3 distinct persons: God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit. These are three different and distinct personalities, each unique in their own way. But all three are God completely and wholely, and are always found in agreement with one another.

One cannot have faith in God without faith in Christ because Christ is the revelation of the father. The Trinity is absolutely indivisible and they cannot be seperated. They are a package deal.

Firstly God owes no man anything. We exist on His mercy. Mobutu is accountable for His life before the One who gave him that life. Mobutu would have knowledge of God if people had not sinned and had not drowned out the Truth of God with the foolishness of their own minds. Instead of worshipping Him and holding to His truth, everyone wanted to do their own thing, and as a result there are many falsehoods out there.

This is not God's fault. This is man's fault. If I poison the well, many will drink in the corruption and be destroyed because of it. This is the way man has made things. Because man rejected truth, then man cannot stand before God claim to be innocent because he didn't know the truth.

Ignorance is not an excuse. If you go to Amsterdam you can smoke pot till your heart's content. If you take some into Singapore you will be arrested and executed for trafficking. You may have been ignorant of the law, but you are still guilty.

I'm willing to put my faith in a God that wants the best for humanity, and I even understand the need for the sacrifice of a few for the benefit of the many.  In fact, I do put my faith in that God.  But condemning 80-90% of humanity to Hell does not, to me, seem like the best thing for humanity.  I have to question your interpretation in light of some of these things you claim a benevolent God would do.

God wanted the best things for humanity from the beginning. But man used the free will God gave him to reject the source of the best things.

Here is the breakdown: You think that you are able to judge what is best for humanity, both in general and in your own life. You are sadly mistaken. Next to God's perspective, we shrink into nothingness. We are blind men stumbling in the dark while He is Light and Truth. His thoughts are higher than ours, His ways more excellent, His judgements more true.

God did not create Hell for men. God created hell as a place for Satan and the rebellious angels. But when man comitted the same sin of rebellion that Satan and the angels did, then man sentenced himself to share their fate.

But God was not willing to give up on man. So He sent Christ to receive the torments of death and hell for us, so that we could find an escape and be restored to the place God created for us in the first place.

Man stands convicted of treason and the sentence of death hangs over his head. Man comitted the crime of rebelling against his God, who made him out of love. Man betrayed that love, and has chosen the death of a rebel rather than the position of a beloved son to God.

But out of love Christ stepped up to pay the penalty for our treason, and accepted the consequences of our sins though He never knew sin. He stood in our place and bore our punishment and purchased with His own blood our restoration as sons.

Now if we reject what Christ has done for us, what hope remains? This is the essence of Christianity.

The Bible says lean not to your own understanding, and that there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of that way is destruction. We don't have the right nor the ability to accurately judge God or His actions with our own minds. Don't make the mistake of trying to make God give account of Himself to you. It will never work, and while doing so you will remain unable to see the truth.

God is benevolent. But you make the mistake of thinking that you can define benevolence. Christ did not suffer the cross and its horrors because He enjoyed them. He was receiving in His body the consequences of my sin. The mere thought of what He suffered is so awful that I can hardly think of it without feeling lower than slug waste. To imagine myself there on that day when Christ was being put on my cross is to bring great shame to my heart. I often wonder what I would have done, knowing what I do now but standing there before the cross seeing Him being tortured and murdered. Then comes the realization that I nailed Him to that cross, not some Roman soldier. I did it.

Yet He loves me deeply and seeks me out, selecting me as His own.

That, my friend, is benevolence. That is love.

But to your mind benevolence means excusing men's evil and rejection of Him based on a host of reasons. You fail to understand God's nature.

at the risk of sounding like a troll, I really don't have a whole lot of faith in the power of prayer.  It seems to me like a Wishing Well for Adults.

the God that I was raised to believe in is all seeing, all knowing, and has a plan for each of his children.  If that's truly the case, my little whimper isn't going to change a whole lot of anything...but it makes ME feel better, and that's why I still do it.

Quoted: at the risk of sounding like a troll, I really don't have a whole lot of faith in the power of prayer.  It seems to me like a Wishing Well for Adults.

Unfortunately alot of Christians treat it that way.

the God that I was raised to believe in is all seeing, all knowing, and has a plan for each of his children.  If that's truly the case, my little whimper isn't going to change a whole lot of anything...but it makes ME feel better, and that's why I still do it.

And yet Scripture still commands we ask.

Prayer, as I have previously stated, has power. Otherwise Jesus would have never prayed, and would have never taught His disciples to pray. Prayer is critical to the life of a Christian.

Quoted: at the risk of sounding like a troll, I really don't have a whole lot of faith in the power of prayer.  It seems to me like a Wishing Well for Adults. the God that I was raised to believe in is all seeing, all knowing, and has a plan for each of his children.  If that's truly the case, my little whimper isn't going to change a whole lot of anything...but it makes ME feel better, and that's why I still do it.

I think prayer hads a twofold purpose:

First, by hunbling ourseleves in prayer, one thing we get from it is the ability, not to ask for what WE want, but to better seek out what HE wants. Put another way, the closer we walk to Him, the easier it is to find our prayers being answered.

Second, there are many, many things in this world we could-or could not- have, and still see His will being done. For example, you could have a child. God's will can be done through this event, and this child, regardless of its sex. However, let's say you want, and pray for, a boy. It is entirely possible that he will grant you that request, where otherwise He might not have, simply because you didn't ask.

That's an overly simplistic view of prayer, I admit.

If you'd like some specific examples of answered prayers, IM me.....I've got some that'll blow your mind. I've also got some UNanswered prayers that'll blow your mind.....

Quoted: Our very heart beats at His command, not our own. Given that we cannot even exist without Him, what right do we have to question Him at all? You are making the mistake of placing God on the level with man. He is not accountable to us in any way. We can demand nothing of Him, and He can never be made to answer to us about anything. You are assuming that humanity is qualified to comment on what is best for them. They are not. Do 5 year olds understand the world better than their parents? Of course not. We accept as truth that children need parents precisely because there is so much they do not understand. How much greater is the gap between finite man and Infinite God? .......... God exists in 3 distinct persons: God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit. These are three different and distinct personalities, each unique in their own way. But all three are God completely and wholely, and are always found in agreement with one another. One cannot have faith in God without faith in Christ because Christ is the revelation of the father. The Trinity is absolutely indivisible and they cannot be seperated. They are a package deal. Firstly God owes no man anything. We exist on His mercy. Mobutu is accountable for His life before the One who gave him that life. Mobutu would have knowledge of God if people had not sinned and had not drowned out the Truth of God with the foolishness of their own minds. Instead of worshipping Him and holding to His truth, everyone wanted to do their own thing, and as a result there are many falsehoods out there. This is not God's fault. This is man's fault. If I poison the well, many will drink in the corruption and be destroyed because of it. This is the way man has made things. Because man rejected truth, then man cannot stand before God claim to be innocent because he didn't know the truth. Man stands convicted of treason and the sentence of death hangs over his head. Man comitted the crime of rebelling against his God, who made him out of love. Man betrayed that love, and has chosen the death of a rebel rather than the position of a beloved son to God. ..... He was receiving in His body the consequences of my sin. The mere thought of what He suffered is so awful that I can hardly think of it without feeling lower than slug waste. To imagine myself there on that day when Christ was being put on my cross is to bring great shame to my heart. I often wonder what I would have done, knowing what I do now but standing there before the cross seeing Him being tortured and murdered. Then comes the realization that I nailed Him to that cross, not some Roman soldier. I did it.

That last part is strange to me.  You feel guilt because of the death of Christ?  Something that happened about 2000 years before you were even born?  Even though consider yourself to have a relationship with God and are a Christian?

I still see a lot of "obey or die horribly" type stuff in there.  If we have no right to question Him, why did He give us the ability?  Punish Mobutu for the sins of other men?  Collective punishment?  Just because Mobutu has never heard the name of Christ?

Someone mentioned an age of accountability earlier.  So children are born innocent, but once that age is passed, they become rebels and condemned to Hell unless they believe that Christ was the son of God?  Why the double standard with regards to ignorance?

I may take an unenlightened view of God and the whole situation, but really, I never claimed to understand God.  I don't know what is going on in His mind.  All I have to go by are the claims you guys make and history, and the gift called logic that God gave us.  I'm asking these questions because some things you are saying don't make sense to me; maybe this is due to incomplete information or something, but the questions are legitimate in my mind.  I'd feel like I was wasting a gift if I didn't ask these questions, given that the ability to do so is given to us by God.

Old_Painless:

The sacrifice of the few for the many.  That was a reference to Christ's sacrifice; obviously he didn't have too grand of a time, but He did it for the benefit of humanity.  There are others who have gone into the service of God and have lived lives that would not be satisfying to the majority of people in order to do so.

I don't want to twist the words handed down, but I do want to understand them.  Given the way ancient men wrote other works of the time period, with all the metaphors and such, I'm not quite ready to take every word in the Bible at face value, when some of it may be figuarative.  When I say interpret, I want to discover the meaning, and express it concisely in language that leaves no doubt.  I'd also like things to make sense within my scope of view; all of it may not, but I'm reluctant to accept some things that seem like obvious contradictions.

Quoted: Old_Painless: The sacrifice of the few for the many.  That was a reference to Christ's sacrifice; obviously he didn't have too grand of a time, but He did it for the benefit of humanity.  There are others who have gone into the service of God and have lived lives that would not be satisfying to the majority of people in order to do so.

Okay, I understand.  The word "few" had me confused.  It was not a "few", it was "One".

Jesus paid it all.  All to Him I owe.

I don't want to twist the words handed down, but I do want to understand them.  Given the way ancient men wrote other works of the time period, with all the metaphors and such, I'm not quite ready to take every word in the Bible at face value, when some of it may be figuarative.

That is a wise deecision.  Some of the Bible is indeed "metaphors and such", as an example, Jesus said that He often taught by using parables.

But it is usually pretty easy to tell when this is going on.  Also, sometimes the language was used as we do in modern English, such as "The sun rose this morning", when we actually know that the sun does not rise, but the earth turns.

But when the Bible makes a declarative statement such as:

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

What else could it mean except for the obvious meaning?  There is no need for "interepretation".  It clearly says what it says.

When I say interpret, I want to discover the meaning, and express it concisely in language that leaves no doubt.  I'd also like things to make sense within my scope of view; all of it may not, but I'm reluctant to accept some things that seem like obvious contradictions.

If you see any passages that seem to have "obvious contradictions", then study them some more.  No problem with that.

But as Mark Twain once said, "It's not the parts of the Bible that I don't understand that scare me, it's the parts that I do understand."

And passages like the one above are crystal clear.  It says that Jesus in the One and Only Way.  There is no other.

If you have questions, go ahead and ask them.  God invites you to do so:

Isaiah 1:18   Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

He invites you to come and reason together with Him.  He loves you and wants to save you.  His one and only method is Jesus.

Quoted: Here is another question. What about some broke, uneducated tribesman named Mobutu in the jungles of Africa.  What happens if he lives his entire life without ever even hearing about Christianity and Christ?  What if, through no fault of his own, he never hears the word of God?  Is Mobutu condemned to Hell because his circumstances were unfortunate enough to be born into an impoverished, isolated area of Africa and he never had the chance to become educated and exposed to Christ? What about babies who die during birth or before they are old enough to comprehend such things as Christianity or Christ?  What happens to them?

Regarding your example above;

1.  God has given ample proof of his existence through what a man can obtain by his physical senses.

2. God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

3. Jesus Christ is the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Here is how it works.

Mobutu is exposed to the reality that God exists.  How does he respond?  Does he deny God's existence and become an atheist?  If he does, Mobutu has shut himself off from God.  God didn't make him deny God's existence.  Mobutu never hears about Jesus Christ and dies and goes to hell.

Mobutu doesn't deny God's existence. But rather than seek the true and living God, Mobutu decides he is going to worship creation and make his own gods to worship.  Mobutu never hears about Jesus Christ and dies and goes to hell.  

Mobutu doesn't deny God's existence.  Mobutu lets God show Mobutu that he is a sinner.  But Mobutu decides that he can make himself acceptable to God by his own good works.  Mobutu dies and goes to hell without hearing the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.  That isn't God's fault.  

Mobutu doesn't deny God.  Mobutu realizes he is a sinner.  Mobutu hears the gospel - that Jesus died for his sins was buried and rose again.  But Mobutu decides to trust religious acts and traditions instead of the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ and dies and goes to hell.

Contrast the above with the following:

Mobutu grows up and sees the glory of God's handiwork in creation.  Mobutu knows God exists.  Mobutu sins against God ( AS WE ALL DO ) and is smitten by his sin.  He is truly sorrowful.  His spirit and heart are broken.  He is contrite about his sin.  He wants to get right with God and tries to do so.  But his conscience is never clear.  God sees Mobutu's heart and knows Mobutu wants a relationship with God.  God deals with the heart of a man who has already trusted Jesus Christ as his Saviour.  That man loves Jesus because Jesus first loved him and went to the cross to save his soul.  That man sells out to God and prays and says "God, thank you for saving me and blessing me like you do.  I want to live for you and do your will in my life.  Please help me to do that."  God deals in that man's heart and prepares him for the work God needs to be done.  Then the Lord puts a burden in that man's heart about a certain country in Africa ....  And then one day a missionary "just happens" to show up in Mobutu's village to preach the gospel.  Mobutu hears the gospel and BELIEVES on the Lord Jesus Christ and is saved.

That is how it works.

Men die and go to hell without hearing the gospel because of their PRIDE and REBELLION against God.

If men react the proper way to the light that God gives to them, then God makes sure a preacher gets to that soul who is truly seeking God.

If a man is not seeking after God, he may die and go to hell without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ.

Quoted: That last part is strange to me.  You feel guilt because of the death of Christ?  Something that happened about 2000 years before you were even born?  Even though consider yourself to have a relationship with God and are a Christian?

I AM responsible for the death of Christ. It was for my sins that He died. He bought MY pardon with His blood. I am just as responsible, and may as well have put the nails through His hands myself.

I am guilty of the blood of Christ. I ran up the debt. He paid it for me.

I still see a lot of "obey or die horribly" type stuff in there.  If we have no right to question Him, why did He give us the ability?  Punish Mobutu for the sins of other men?  Collective punishment?  Just because Mobutu has never heard the name of Christ?

No, we do not have the right to question the authority of God in our lives. You confuse having the ability to do something for having the right to do something. I have an AR-15 and a car. I have the ability to drive into a pre-school and mow down pre-schoolers by the dozens. But do I have the RIGHT to so so?

Absolutely not. Similarly I have the ability to question God's authority and judgement, but I do not posess the right to do so. God gave us the ability to choose between good and evil, but we do not have moral or legal justification to choose evil. If we did not have the ability to do wrong, we would be robots without free will.

As to Mobutu, consider what Romans says on this topic:

"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[3] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[4] unmerciful; 32who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them." Romans 1


"12For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel." Romans 2


When you grasp the Bible as a whole, it becomes apparent that any seperation between men and God has been of their own doing. Mobutu has sinned just as surely as I breathe, thus he is accountable to God for his sins, just as I am.

Someone mentioned an age of accountability earlier.  So children are born innocent, but once that age is passed, they become rebels and condemned to Hell unless they believe that Christ was the son of God?  Why the double standard with regards to ignorance?

I do believe that there is an age of accountability. There is an age at which a person is not developed enough to understand the concepts of right and wrong, sinner and savior. But then there comes a time where they can understand these things. If someone lacks the capacity to understand the concept of sin and salvation, if they lack the mental resources necessary to grasp it, I do not believe God holds them accountable. Their sin is covered under the grace Christ provided at the cross.

But assuming Mobutu is a normally functioning adult, he has the ability to discern between right and wrong. He has a conscience. Thus he is accountable.

Ignorance due to being mentally unable to percieve truth is one thing. Ignorance due to failing to seek the truth is another. Adults and young adults and even many children (barring mental handicap) have the ability to understand right and wrong. These people are accountable.

Infants, toddlers, and people who are mentally handicapped cannot grasp the concept because of their limitations. I do not believe that these people are accountable.

I may take an unenlightened view of God and the whole situation, but really, I never claimed to understand God.  I don't know what is going on in His mind.  All I have to go by are the claims you guys make and history, and the gift called logic that God gave us.  I'm asking these questions because some things you are saying don't make sense to me; maybe this is due to incomplete information or something, but the questions are legitimate in my mind.  I'd feel like I was wasting a gift if I didn't ask these questions, given that the ability to do so is given to us by God.

I only know what God requires because His Word reveals it to me and His Spirit speaks in accordance with the Word. The human mind cannot know God because God is not revealed to our mind. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must do so in spirit and truth. Thus all we can know of God is what is revealed to us by Him. This is why we have His Word.

Logic was placed in us by God Himself. God is a God of logic, for our natural world is too well ordered for Him to be anything else. But logic is not the greatest part of us, nor should it govern us past a certain point. If our logic alone could grasp God then God would be inferior to our logic, and He would be no god at all. Thus by His very nature He will exceed our ability to perceive and understand. This is why He takes the trouble to reveal Himself first through His word, then through the Holy Spirit.

Questions are not necessarily a bad thing. It is by questioning the status of our soul, the purpose of our existence and the nature of our Creator that we begin to understand. A disquiet in the soul must exist before a person is compelled to find his way back to his Maker. This is a divine discomfort brought about by God's prevenient grace and the work of His Holy Spirit.

The beginning of salvation is to have right thoughts about God and to understand better who He really is. The Bible stands as a witness to show us the heart of the Father and to show us as much of God as our soul can handle.

We have no right to demand anything of God, but He has said that we should ask for what we need. He does this out of great love and tenderness to us, for He remembers the frailty of our frame and has mercy on us.

If you truly set out to know the true and living God, you will know Him. If you truly seek after Him, not leaning to your own understanding but asking for a revelation in your spirit of who He is, you will find Him. The problem today is that so many people try to apprehend God with their mind that they get into error, rather than trying to know Him by revelation of spirit and walking in truth.

The sacrifice of the few for the many.  That was a reference to Christ's sacrifice; obviously he didn't have too grand of a time, but He did it for the benefit of humanity.  There are others who have gone into the service of God and have lived lives that would not be satisfying to the majority of people in order to do so.

This isn't really accurate. Christ didn't die for "humanity". He died for human beings. Each individually, not just as a group. This is key to knowing the heart of the Father, that even if you were the only person who would ever repent, Jesus would still have suffered all of that torment with gladness. That is how much He cares for you individually.

Those who are truly in God's service do so only because they are in the service of God. They do not sacrifice for others, but they gladly sacrifice for Him. All the good that a true servant of God does is out of the motivation to be more like Christ and to demonstrate love and obedience to Him. This will naturally help others out, but that is not the core motivation. True Christians help others because we know how much God loved us, and we see in that how much He loves them too. Because we love Him, we are motivated to bring Him to the desire of His heart: The lost and the needy.

It is His love and goodness at work in true Christians that makes them good, thus they deserve none of the credit and will happily reject any attempt to credit them with it. They do it as a gift of love to the one who Loved them perfectly, and that is reason enough for them.

I don't want to twist the words handed down, but I do want to understand them.  Given the way ancient men wrote other works of the time period, with all the metaphors and such, I'm not quite ready to take every word in the Bible at face value, when some of it may be figuarative.  When I say interpret, I want to discover the meaning, and express it concisely in language that leaves no doubt.  I'd also like things to make sense within my scope of view; all of it may not, but I'm reluctant to accept some things that seem like obvious contradictions.

Your mind will never be able to understand God or His word rightly. Some of what is in the Word is reasonable and easily understood, but the Maker Himself is only grasped by revelation of the Spirit.

There comes a point where you must, in faith, surrender your all to Him and confess that He has complete right over your mind, body, and soul. When you make this surrender entirely new worlds are open to you and you can even begin to hear the very voice of God Himself speak within you.

When you are ready to surrender all to Him, then you are ready to have an actual relationship with Him. It is at that point where God resumes His rightful place in your life, as Master and Creator, and you resume your rightful role as servant of the Most High.

I can become a close friend of the King, but not if I undermine His throne. The same is true with God.

Quoted: Quoted: Here is another question. What about some broke, uneducated tribesman named Mobutu in the jungles of Africa.  What happens if he lives his entire life without ever even hearing about Christianity and Christ?  What if, through no fault of his own, he never hears the word of God?  Is Mobutu condemned to Hell because his circumstances were unfortunate enough to be born into an impoverished, isolated area of Africa and he never had the chance to become educated and exposed to Christ? What about babies who die during birth or before they are old enough to comprehend such things as Christianity or Christ?  What happens to them? Regarding your example above; 1.  God has given ample proof of his existence through what a man can obtain by his physical senses. 2. God has dealt to every man the measure of faith. 3. Jesus Christ is the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Here is how it works. Mobutu is exposed to the reality that God exists.  How does he respond?  Does he deny God's existence and become an atheist?  If he does, Mobutu has shut himself off from God.  God didn't make him deny God's existence.  Mobutu never hears about Jesus Christ and dies and goes to hell. Mobutu doesn't deny God's existence. But rather than seek the true and living God, Mobutu decides he is going to worship creation and make his own gods to worship.  Mobutu never hears about Jesus Christ and dies and goes to hell.   Mobutu doesn't deny God's existence.  Mobutu lets God show Mobutu that he is a sinner.  But Mobutu decides that he can make himself acceptable to God by his own good works.  Mobutu dies and goes to hell without hearing the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.  That isn't God's fault.   Mobutu doesn't deny God.  Mobutu realizes he is a sinner.  Mobutu hears the gospel - that Jesus died for his sins was buried and rose again.  But Mobutu decides to trust religious acts and traditions instead of the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ and dies and goes to hell. Contrast the above with the following: Mobutu grows up and sees the glory of God's handiwork in creation.  Mobutu knows God exists.  Mobutu sins against God ( AS WE ALL DO ) and is smitten by his sin.  He is truly sorrowful.  His spirit and heart are broken.  He is contrite about his sin.  He wants to get right with God and tries to do so.  But his conscience is never clear.  God sees Mobutu's heart and knows Mobutu wants a relationship with God.  God deals with the heart of a man who has already trusted Jesus Christ as his Saviour.  That man loves Jesus because Jesus first loved him and went to the cross to save his soul.  That man sells out to God and prays and says "God, thank you for saving me and blessing me like you do.  I want to live for you and do your will in my life.  Please help me to do that."  God deals in that man's heart and prepares him for the work God needs to be done.  Then the Lord puts a burden in that man's heart about a certain country in Africa ....  And then one day a missionary "just happens" to show up in Mobutu's village to preach the gospel.  Mobutu hears the gospel and BELIEVES on the Lord Jesus Christ and is saved. That is how it works. Men die and go to hell without hearing the gospel because of their PRIDE and REBELLION against God. If men react the proper way to the light that God gives to them, then God makes sure a preacher gets to that soul who is truly seeking God. If a man is not seeking after God, he may die and go to hell without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ.

Wow. I got goosebumps.

Quoted: Quoted: Here is another question. What about some broke, uneducated tribesman named Mobutu in the jungles of Africa.  What happens if he lives his entire life without ever even hearing about Christianity and Christ?  What if, through no fault of his own, he never hears the word of God?  Is Mobutu condemned to Hell because his circumstances were unfortunate enough to be born into an impoverished, isolated area of Africa and he never had the chance to become educated and exposed to Christ? What about babies who die during birth or before they are old enough to comprehend such things as Christianity or Christ?  What happens to them? Regarding your example above; 1.  God has given ample proof of his existence through what a man can obtain by his physical senses. 2. God has dealt to every man the measure of faith. 3. Jesus Christ is the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Here is how it works. Mobutu is exposed to the reality that God exists.  How does he respond?  Does he deny God's existence and become an atheist?  If he does, Mobutu has shut himself off from God.  God didn't make him deny God's existence.  Mobutu never hears about Jesus Christ and dies and goes to hell. Mobutu doesn't deny God's existence. But rather than seek the true and living God, Mobutu decides he is going to worship creation and make his own gods to worship.  Mobutu never hears about Jesus Christ and dies and goes to hell.   Mobutu doesn't deny God's existence.  Mobutu lets God show Mobutu that he is a sinner.  But Mobutu decides that he can make himself acceptable to God by his own good works.  Mobutu dies and goes to hell without hearing the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.  That isn't God's fault.   Mobutu doesn't deny God.  Mobutu realizes he is a sinner.  Mobutu hears the gospel - that Jesus died for his sins was buried and rose again.  But Mobutu decides to trust religious acts and traditions instead of the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ and dies and goes to hell. Contrast the above with the following: Mobutu grows up and sees the glory of God's handiwork in creation.  Mobutu knows God exists.  Mobutu sins against God ( AS WE ALL DO ) and is smitten by his sin.  He is truly sorrowful.  His spirit and heart are broken.  He is contrite about his sin.  He wants to get right with God and tries to do so.  But his conscience is never clear.  God sees Mobutu's heart and knows Mobutu wants a relationship with God.  God deals with the heart of a man who has already trusted Jesus Christ as his Saviour.  That man loves Jesus because Jesus first loved him and went to the cross to save his soul.  That man sells out to God and prays and says "God, thank you for saving me and blessing me like you do.  I want to live for you and do your will in my life.  Please help me to do that."  God deals in that man's heart and prepares him for the work God needs to be done.  Then the Lord puts a burden in that man's heart about a certain country in Africa ....  And then one day a missionary "just happens" to show up in Mobutu's village to preach the gospel.  Mobutu hears the gospel and BELIEVES on the Lord Jesus Christ and is saved. That is how it works. Men die and go to hell without hearing the gospel because of their PRIDE and REBELLION against God. If men react the proper way to the light that God gives to them, then God makes sure a preacher gets to that soul who is truly seeking God. If a man is not seeking after God, he may die and go to hell without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ.

This does make sense, and is a clever way of avoiding the problem.  Not believing in coincidences means that certain seemingly random acts are not random, but are directed.  If God is creator of the universe and has power to direct acts to implement His will, it makes sense that he could gently prod people into being at the right place at the right time and performing His will by manipulating the universe around them.

I base part of my belief in God on the fact that my setbacks seem to turn out for the best in the end.  Normally, I would consider that this perception could have multiple causes.  Perhaps it seems like it turned out well because I don't know what would have happened otherwise.  Perhaps I have the ability within myself to make the best out of any situation I'm placed in.  Or perhaps there is a God who is gently prodding me in the direction I need to go in to fulfill whatever plans He has for me.

I started tending towards the latter belief because of the completely bizzarre string of events that happened to me over the past couple of years.  It turned my life 180 degrees from the direction it was heading.  Not in the sense that I was sliding towards a bad life or becoming a social degenerate, but as far as family life and career went, I was proceeding in a direction completely opposite the one I'm now going in.  In fact, the path I am on now was the very last one I would have chosen had events not pushed me in this direction.  And the fact of the matter is, I couldn't feel as fulfilled as I do living any other way, despite the setbacks.

Don't get me wrong here.  I'm not anti-religion or anti-Christian.  I believe strongly in a God, and everything I've encountered lately has reinforced this belief.  I believe the teachings of Christ are exceptional and of divine inspiration, and I do believe Christ died for humanity by God's will, even if only by sticking to his beliefs in the face of extreme hardship.  He is certainly a model for us all to emulate, and his teachings are probably the best way to a satisfying life.

My beliefs differ though, in that I am not quite ready to accept Christ as the son of God in a literal sense, and I am not ready to believe that salvation depends solely on this criteria.  I've seen many people of other religions with faith in God that is just as strong and devoted as that of Christians, and who live lives just as satisfying, and I can't believe that something wrong would yield such good results.  I believe that other religions around the world contain some of the same messages of truth as do the teachings of Christ, and I believe that, despite different manifestations caused by culture, some of these religions refer to the same God.  I'd like to believe that the way to salvation, or at least a satisfying life (we can debate the existance of Heaven and Hell later; I'm leaning towards the exisitance of an afterlife, but I'm not quite sure on that either) is by committing yourself to a single benevolent God or Creator, and pledging yourself to follow His will and live by the helpful guidelines He gave us long ago.

My belief system is always flexible though, and I'm always willing to consider new ideas and question existing ones based on new information.  I do believe in examining every angle in something so important as this topic.  Since I've questioned aspects of yours, I thought I'd throw mine out for you to question.  Outside opinions are always of value.

Neutral,

God does want a personal relationship with you and he proved it on the cross of Calvary.

Keep an open mind.  Keep on seeking.  If your heart is right and you lay aside your pride, you will come to saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

But you sure don't want to wait too long.  You don't know what tomorrow will bring.

What you choose to do with the Lord Jesus Christ will matter for all eternity.

Salvation is based on God's LOVE, for God is love.  And God's love toward us was manifested on the cross.  So was God's hatred for sin.  Sin brings a terrible price with it.  But God was willing to pay the price so we could be reconsiled to God.

No religion saves.  No amount of good deads.  Men's feelings and opinions won't save their souls.

Only God's love can do that.  Only Jesus can save sinners.

There are many on the boards that will pray that God keeps dealiing with your heart.

Neutral,

You also asked about babies.  I just saw that as I read back through your post.

God is just.  But he is more than just, he is merciful and gracious.  God has said that he will not impute sin to an individual where there is no law.  In the case of an infant or a person who is mentally retarded,  God does not impute their sin to them.

God imputes sin to a man who makes a choice to sin, knowing that what he is doing is wrong.  Now they ( the very young, or the retarded ) were guilty of the sin when they commited it, in a sense.  But they do not have that sin imputed to them.

Quoted: Someone mentioned an age of accountability earlier.  So children are born innocent, but once that age is passed, they become rebels and condemned to Hell unless they believe that Christ was the son of God?  Why the double standard with regards to ignorance?

I answered your post inregards to two different aspects... onw was knowledge (or lack there of: ignorance)  That was the adult in the wilderness who didn't know Christ...  and I said it was what most feel..   Some are happy enough to say that they don't know.   Finished that post saying I didn't think I had that one nailed down yet...   I agree with Old_Painless....  I suggest you first worry more about the_neutral_observer then worry about the soul of Motuboo when it comes to these theological answers.

In the quote above you intertwine accountability and ignorance...   A child is not accountable was my point... but at some point they become accounable...   try to keep the two separate.

I may take an unenlightened view of God and the whole situation, but really, I never claimed to understand God.

The posts in here say we can never understand him...  he's way too far above us.. its like a two year old trying to understand why there parents go to work such.   But he has revealed his nature to us in his Word... that we can trust (Christianity and Judiasm aggree here to the best of my knowledge)

When I say interpret, I want to discover the meaning, and express it concisely in language that leaves no doubt.  I'd also like things to make sense within my scope of view; all of it may not, but I'm reluctant to accept some things that seem like obvious contradictions.

I suggest that you find a good church (email me if you'd like and I'll help you find one, or atleast talk to you about what I think is important in a church), join one of their bible studys  (you don't have to go to church to do this).   They would love to read every word with you and debate and elaborate, correlate,  and just generally mull over it with you...    I do it with my pastor who reads the original Greek (new testament) writings and sheds light on the translations...   I do it most every tuesday night.    Its actually more enjoyable when a  newbee or non believer joins in.