I don't want to hijack this thread so anyone who is non Catholic I have a question for you.

Quoted: Feel free to point out which Catholic traditions "transgress the commandments of God." While you're thinking, and continuing in your bashing, ponder Mark 9, vs. 38-41 - which interestingly came up in another thread just last night.

All I'm doing is pointing out that following rules, rules which have nothing to do with God's law, is vain. It has nothing to do with being saved or going to heaven. Jesus even said so, many times.

Being a nice person, helping those less fortunate than ourselves, and following rules written by man carries as much weight (as it pertains to unlocking your personal key to heaven's gate) in God's eyes as being able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

According to the Bible, there is but One Way to salvation and His name is Jesus Christ.

Quoted: Quoted: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. I swear it must be jealousy.

Don't roll your eyes at me, my internet friend. I didn't say it. Jesus did. Take it up with Him.

*tagged*

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. I swear it must be jealousy. Don't roll your eyes at me, my internet friend. I didn't say it. Jesus did. Take it up with Him.

No..you implies that Catholic don't follow Jesus nut follow their own rules.

WEhich I find interesting be cause we have a central structure who's main goal is to make sure the rules are followed the same Church wide.

While apparently a Baptist can go to one church and if he doesn't like it he can just go to another one until he does find one he likes.


That is called Church shopping.  Instead of him changing to the church...he has the church change for him.





Sgtar15

Don't put it down, the Baptist/Protestant set-up isn't too bad.

The pastors don't take vows of poverty like some Catholic priests, and they have no hierarchy setting their wages. So, as far as earnings, the sky is the limit! If you preach a popular word and avoid controversial teachings, you can make a ton of $$$. And you don't have to sacrifice your life to God either! You can still get married and drive that Mercedes SUV and live in the toniest neighborhoods.

Quoted: Quoted: Feel free to point out which Catholic traditions "transgress the commandments of God." While you're thinking, and continuing in your bashing, ponder Mark 9, vs. 38-41 - which interestingly came up in another thread just last night. All I'm doing is pointing out that following rules, rules which have nothing to do with God's law, is vain. It has nothing to do with being saved or going to heaven. Jesus even said so, many times. Being a nice person, helping those less fortunate than ourselves, and following rules written by man carries as much weight (as it pertains to unlocking your personal key to heaven's gate) in God's eyes as being able to walk and chew gum at the same time. According to the Bible, there is but One Way to salvation and His name is Jesus Christ.

Funny, that;s not what I read at all.  I read a passage that warned against following laws that violated God's commandments.  Now you tell me that God's Commandments are unimportant?  Where in that passage do you get THAT interpretation?  I think at least three of the Gospels had the "This is my greatest Commandment - love one another as I have loved you." - THAT'S where we get this whole. "Being a nice person, helping those less fortunate than ourselves..."  Did you miss that part?

Quoted: No..you implies that Catholic don't follow Jesus nut follow their own rules. WEhich I find interesting be cause we have a central structure who's main goal is to make sure the rules are followed the same Church wide.

Here's a very important question Sarge:

Are there any Catholic Church rules (other than the Ten Commandments) that, if a member disobeys, that person can be ex-communicated from the Church? Furthermore, does the Catholic Leadership take it upon itself to decide if certain "rule-breakers" can be forever barred from Heaven? Which of these rules carries such a penalty?

Don't get all self-righteous and huffy with me. I'm just asking questions of you.

Quoted: Funny, that;s not what I read at all.  I read a passage that warned against following laws that violated God's commandments.  Now you tell me that God's Commandments are unimportant?  Where in that passage do you get THAT interpretation?  I think at least three of the Gospels had the "This is my greatest Commandment - love one another as I have loved you." - THAT'S where we get this whole. "Being a nice person, helping those less fortunate than ourselves..."  Did you miss that part?

I missed nothing. The Bible clearly states that following a rule (or a tradition) written by a man, however good or nice the rule is, carries NO weight in getting that person to Heaven. Following that rule may make you a nice humanitarian, but it doesn't save your soul, in God's eyes.

On the edit: I also believe that Jesus is saying that if a MAN says that if you don't follow a *man-written* rule, it is a sin (or worse, you could be barred from heaven for disobeying it), that is a sin in and of itself.

IOW, placing man's laws or rules on an even par with God's laws is a sin.

Quoted: Here's a very important question Sarge: Are there any Catholic Church rules (other than the Ten Commandments) that, if a member disobeys, that person can be ex-communicated from the Church?

Sure is...heresy is one of them.  Repeatedly attacking the Church and purposefully going against GOD'S LAWS will also get one excumminicated.  Kerry is currently in major trouble with the church over these very things due to his OPEN support for abortion.

Furthermore, does the Catholic Leadership take it upon itself to decide if certain "rule-breakers" can be forever barred from Heaven? Which of these rules carries such a penalty? Don't get all self-righteous and huffy with me. I'm just asking questions of you.

Never heard of such a thing.  God determines who gets into Heaven, man does not.

SGatr15

Quoted: The Baptist hierarchy is: God you

I prefer the CHRISTIAN hierarchy.

God
Christ
You



...and yes, I know it's nit-picky!

Quoted: Quoted: The Baptist hierarchy is: God you I prefer the CHRISTIAN hierarchy. God Christ You ...and yes, I know it's nit-picky!

I was wondering when someone would point that out.  ALthought technically God and Jesus are the same entity.

SGatr15

Quoted: Are there any Catholic Church rules (other than the Ten Commandments) that, if a member disobeys, that person can be ex-communicated from the Church?

No. The only things that can get you excommunicated from the Church are willful rebellions against the word of God. Violations of the Ten Commandments are some, rejections of Christ's word are others.

Furthermore, does the Catholic Leadership take it upon itself to decide if certain "rule-breakers" can be forever barred from Heaven? Which of these rules carries such a penalty?

No, they don't decide who get's barred from Heaven. Excommunication is only a recognition of who has separated themselves from the Body of Christ of their own will.  These are taken on a case-by-case basis.

Recognize also that not everyone who has separated themselves from the Body of Christ will be formally excommunicated.

People like John Kerry, who has voted in support of every abortion-promoting bill possible, have separated themselves from the Body of Christ by knowingly violating "Thou shalt not kill." and has falsely declared through his actions that abortion does not violate it. He is a candidate for excommunication, but whether he does get excommunicated or not is, for him, spiritually irrelevant.

Jesus Christ is the invisible head of the church

The pope, as successor to St. Peter is the visible head of the church.

Catholics believe that the popes are the rightful succsessors to St. Peter due the promises made to St. Peter by Our Lord, which were to be fulfilled in the Church till the end of time, and as Peter was not to live till the end of time, they are fulfilled in his successors.

Bishops are the other successors of the apostles, because they continue the work of the Apostles and give proof of the same authority. They have always exercised the rights and powers that belonged to the Apostles in making laws for the Church, in consecrating bishops and ordaining priests. The definition is "The title of an ecclesiastical dignitary who possesses the fullness of the priesthood to rule a diocese as its chief pastor, in due submission to the primacy of the pope."

The pope is the bishop of Rome.

A cardinal is a dignitary of the Roman Church and counsellor of the pope. They are somewhat removed from the day-to-day running of individual dioceses. Their title places them directly behind the pope in authority though. For more information, read www.newadvent.org/cathen/03333b.htm

The definitions of priests and deacons have already been discussed. A monsignor is usually a priest who has had a long distinguished service and is thus recognized by the Holy See.

So the power structure is usually: Pope --> Bishops --> Priests.




An interesting point about being Catholic and salvation as stated in the Catechism:

Q. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic
Church to be the true Church?

A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to
be the true Church, provided that person:

  1. (1) Has been validly baptized;
  2. (2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true
     religion, and
  3. (3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

Sarge and Legs,..

I TOLD you I was nit-picking!

Wobblin-Goblin:
As I understand, no one is banned "forever", only until they repent and confess that they have done wrong.  Even the excommunicated can have a change of heart and ask for forgiveness, after which they will be readmitted to the Church.

Kharn

Quoted: Don't put it down, the Baptist/Protestant set-up isn't too bad. The pastors don't take vows of poverty like some Catholic priests, and they have no hierarchy setting their wages. So, as far as earnings, the sky is the limit! If you preach a popular word and avoid controversial teachings, you can make a ton of $$$. And you don't have to sacrifice your life to God either! You can still get married and drive that Mercedes SUV and live in the toniest neighborhoods.

I don't know where this idea comes from, but let me put it to rest.

I am a member of a Pentecostal denomination, in fact the oldest Pentecostal denomination in the world.

The local church has a pastor, and possibly an associate pastor, and sometimes a minister of youth and a minister of music if the church is large enough to support that staff.

The majority of churches, however, have a membership of under 100. In many of those, there is not enough money to support the pastor full time, so the pastor has to work a secular job just to stay in the ministry. Within the local church there is a board of elders, similar to deacons.

Churches are divided up into districts. Each district is presided over by a Bishop who is responsible for some minor discipline and financial matters. Above the district Bishops is a State Bishop, who answers to a council of elders for the state.

Above the state and international churches, there is a chief Administrative Bishop who is over all the organization, along with the Council of 12. General church policy is set by the Ordained Ministers, who gather every 2 years in a General Assembly to vote on issues of doctrine, pay, policy, etc. Our most recent General Assembly has voted to require extensive criminal background checks for anyone becoming licensed as a minister in our denomination.

Each local church sends in a portion of their tithes to the state offices, who in turn send in a portion to the national offices. There are also missions and benevolence ministries run by the state and national offices, but offerings to those ministries is free-will.

So no, preachers don't get to keep all the cash. And if you had any idea how many preachers spend their days working 2 jobs just to support a family and stay in the ministry, your attitude would be a whole lot different.

Don't judge all preachers by the Robert Tiltons of the world. He is hardly representative.

Quoted: Jesus Christ is the invisible head of the church The pope, as successor to St. Peter is the visible head of the church. Catholics believe that the popes are the rightful succsessors to St. Peter due the promises made to St. Peter by Our Lord, which were to be fulfilled in the Church till the end of time, and as Peter was not to live till the end of time, they are fulfilled in his successors. Bishops are the other successors of the apostles, because they continue the work of the Apostles and give proof of the same authority. They have always exercised the rights and powers that belonged to the Apostles in making laws for the Church, in consecrating bishops and ordaining priests. The definition is "The title of an ecclesiastical dignitary who possesses the fullness of the priesthood to rule a diocese as its chief pastor, in due submission to the primacy of the pope." The pope is the bishop of Rome. A cardinal is a dignitary of the Roman Church and counsellor of the pope. They are somewhat removed from the day-to-day running of individual dioceses. Their title places them directly behind the pope in authority though. For more information, read www.newadvent.org/cathen/03333b.htm The definitions of priests and deacons have already been discussed. A monsignor is usually a priest who has had a long distinguished service and is thus recognized by the Holy See. So the power structure is usually: Pope --> Bishops --> Priests. An interesting point about being Catholic and salvation as stated in the Catechism: Q. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church? A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:   1. (1) Has been validly baptized;   2. (2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true      religion, and   3. (3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

I'm not Catholic, was raised a Southern Baptist, and I really like this response.

Quoted: Pope Cardinal Archbishop Bishop Monsignor (fixed) Priest Deacon (fixed) Lay people (Fixed) Thanks in advance.

And the head of the Jesuit order is called "General"

Quoted: Don't put it down, the Baptist/Protestant set-up isn't too bad. The pastors don't take vows of poverty like some Catholic priests, and they have no hierarchy setting their wages. So, as far as earnings, the sky is the limit! If you preach a popular word and avoid controversial teachings, you can make a ton of $$$. And you don't have to sacrifice your life to God either! You can still get married and drive that Mercedes SUV and live in the toniest neighborhoods.

God Don't want us to have no junk...

Quoted: Quoted: No..you implies that Catholic don't follow Jesus nut follow their own rules. WEhich I find interesting be cause we have a central structure who's main goal is to make sure the rules are followed the same Church wide. Here's a very important question Sarge: Are there any Catholic Church rules (other than the Ten Commandments) that, if a member disobeys, that person can be ex-communicated from the Church? Furthermore, does the Catholic Leadership take it upon itself to decide if certain "rule-breakers" can be forever barred from Heaven? Which of these rules carries such a penalty? Don't get all self-righteous and huffy with me. I'm just asking questions of you.

Ask Martin Luther...