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Posted: 4/12/2002 5:52:07 PM EDT
[#1]
"Carla Faye Tucker won't be there", ha ha that's good. I wonder if Adolf Hitler will be there with you.
Yeah I believe there is a devil. I also know I won't be there alongside him. You can too. Don't worry, I won't go any further on this. |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 5:52:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: 2. What about God being omniscient strikes you as a bad thing? Almost everything---it's where Christianity falls to pieces. If God is TRULY omniscient, He knew everything that would happen before it happened. Thus, He knew beforehand that by creating Lucifer and the angels He was creating the beings that would, according to the Bible, become Satan and his demons. Also, He knew before He created man that man would rebel and according to the rules He made, He would send BILLIONS of these human beings to eternal torment in Hell (or to destruction if you happen to view Hell as simple nonexistence). Free will, sure...but if you're gonna wind up throwing away most of your creation, why the hell create it in the first place? Doesn't make a great deal of sense. IMHO, there are four possibilities: 1) God exists as described in the Big Three religions but He is not omniscient. 2) God exists as described in the Big Three religions but He is not omnipotent. 3) God exists, but not as described in the major religions. or 4) God does not exist as envisioned by ANY human religion and if there is any Creator that being has no individual interests in humans or humankind. |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 5:56:12 PM EDT
[#3]
no one in their right mind is in any hurry to die.
Life is a quandry. [/quote] I thought they were dieing to get in. ha ha ha couldn't pass that play on words. |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 6:00:49 PM EDT
[#4]
Yes,
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Posted: 4/12/2002 6:07:28 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: According to modern mathematics, nuclear physics and older philosophy, there can be no good without there also being evil. I guess that I've never known the sciences of math or physics to make value judgements! Are you referring to specific quotes by individuals? To Newton's third law of balanced forces? To the feelings of scientists? Seems like name dropping to me, or at the very least, a case of argumentum ad verecundiam. |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 6:08:42 PM EDT
[#6]
Who is Carla Faye Tucker????
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Posted: 4/12/2002 6:09:38 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: OK, I know 4 of you do and you guys can consider yourselves exempted from this topic. You may participate if you wish, but I know those who believe the Bible literally believe EVERYTHING in it. I'm not gonna waste my time trying to convince you otherwise and I understand if you do the same. But for the rest of you, Do you really believe in the boogeyman with the red asbestos suit? The guy running around f*cking everything up and forcing Jimmy Swaggart to have sex with prostitues? The guy who is making life hard for Gary Condit? I personally think this is just some crap dreamt up to excuse someone who got caught with their pants down... "OH NO! The DEVIL made me do it!" And let me save the first guy who thinks he's clever some trouble... "Satans greatest achievement is convincing Man he doesn't exist." I guess that makes the Easter Bunny pretty f*cking smart too. NO. There is no Satan. |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 6:26:08 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: To be saved you must seek out and accept Jesus as your personal savior. Anything else is a 'win' for Satan. This, of course, is providing that there is indeed a real Satan who will stab your ass with a pitchfork for not being good. Which is what this dicussion is REALLY about. You've made your point that you believe that there is a Satan. Anything that follows after that is moot in this thread, AFAIAC. 'Course, that's just my opinion, I didn't start this thread. the_reject |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 7:02:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Who is Carla Faye Tucker???? GB, I like you. And that is why I'm going to let you find the answer rather than tell you. [url]www.google.com[/url] Aren't I as useful as your 6th grade teacher? |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 7:04:49 PM EDT
[#10]
OK, here's a question for believers. Non-believers, feel welcome to join in - consider it an academic debate.
If Jesus died for our sins, and in so doing made it so we can be forgiven for whatever we've done, as long as we accept him as saviour, is it possible for Sataan to repent and be saved? Here's another thought - knowledge of good and evil. My understanding is that one thing that sets us apart from the critters is that they go through life basically amoral innocents, because they do not have the concept of good and evil, and never will. Yes they can have emotions, and yet do not know sin or guilt or any of the negative emotions we know. On the other hand, we do not lack these things and go through life knowing right from wrong and both suffering and enjoying the ups and downs. |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 7:09:56 PM EDT
[#11]
Yes, I believe in the devil. Her name is Hilary Clinton.
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Posted: 4/12/2002 7:14:06 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Yes, I believe in the devil. Her name is Hilary Clinton. Oh damn...maybe I DO believe there's a devil then... |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 7:15:53 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Satan considers himself on the same level as God... Isaiah 14:13-15 "You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God: I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly on the upmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." I assume from the above that this is what Isaiah wrote with his pen and paper a considerable period after the "big bang" – or, at least a long time after these events (he claims) to have taken place. How come he has the only secret decoder ring – and why has nobody found it? Give me a break! |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 7:18:13 PM EDT
[#14]
Yes I believe in Satan.........
Everytime I see Richard Simmons I am reminded of him |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 7:20:24 PM EDT
[#15]
Typed with one hand...
Hello, guys, I think I'll side with Steyr here. The big problem with the "God/Satan" "choose one or the other side" choice discounts those of us who just want to be left alone and not want to deal with this Puff-Headed Leader of Creation. If God thinks it's funny/entertaining/interesting/meaningful to send people into "eternal damnation" to prove his point that he allowed us "free will", then I guess he could, after all he's all powerfull. Please, Some of us don't want part in this heaven or hell nonsense. If God came to me and said either you get a heaven with me or a hell by yourself, I'd choose the hell. What the fuck would I do for forever? Sing his praise? Stare at the gold so pure it's clear? Never see night time? Spend my time with a holy appointed task like keeping a candle lit? Peace? Happiness? Sounds like a little boring. No excitment, no danger, I mean, what could you possibly do for eternity? There's only so many times you can listen to the story of the ressurection. I'm not preaching, I don't care how many times you say I'll wind up in hell, If God wants to dispose of one of his "creations" in an ugly and unfair manner, so be it. I just wish he'd do it now and quit monkeying around. What is the point of even creating us people if he knows we'll just deny him? To show his mercy to those he did choose was always the answer given to me... wrong answer. He's just egotistical and it's getting on my nerves. I didn't curse God or even Satan a single time yesterday after I burned myself... you know why? I take personal responsibilty for every action I take, good/bad/stupid. Just remember, I love you guys, no matter what. (Just don't touch me like that, you're not my father) |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 7:28:51 PM EDT
[#16]
Yes - He came flying out of my ass spewing fire & brimstone when I was on the toilet after a Mexican dinner & too much tequila! He without doubt *IS* The Master Of Evil!
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Posted: 4/12/2002 7:55:22 PM EDT
[#17]
I consider myself to be a good father,husband and a moral person, but I am not a man of faith.
It just doesn't work for me. Life can be very hard for people at times and if their faith helps them cope with their pain or fear of dying that's OK by me. Certain things turn me off on religion like Biblical statements that make no sense are far fetched,people who quote and interpit things to justify their absurd adjenda and the never ending "my god is better than your god" wars and rantings. Is the a Devil?....Well I swear there aint no heaven and I pray there aint no hell! Andy |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 7:57:34 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Quoted: 2. What about God being omniscient strikes you as a bad thing? Almost everything---it's where Christianity falls to pieces. If God is TRULY omniscient, He knew everything that would happen before it happened. Thus, He knew beforehand that by creating Lucifer and the angels He was creating the beings that would, according to the Bible, become Satan and his demons. Also, He knew before He created man that man would rebel and according to the rules He made, He would send BILLIONS of these human beings to eternal torment in Hell (or to destruction if you happen to view Hell as simple nonexistence). Free will, sure...but if you're gonna wind up throwing away most of your creation, why the hell create it in the first place? Doesn't make a great deal of sense. IMHO, there are four possibilities: 1) God exists as described in the Big Three religions but He is not omniscient. 2) God exists as described in the Big Three religions but He is not omnipotent. 3) God exists, but not as described in the major religions. or 4) God does not exist as envisioned by ANY human religion and if there is any Creator that being has no individual interests in humans or humankind. RikWriter, There is one other possibility: The mysteries of which we speak are way above our heads and we simply do not understand and do not have all the answers to all the questions about "why did God...?". I could not pick Jesus out of a lineup, but I have seen his face and love in others, so I believe. I have not seen the face of God, but I have seen his creation and literally heard his voice, so I believe. I have no letters or phone messages to prove it, but he speaks to me in soft whispers when my heart is ready to hear Him, so I believe. I have seen and spoke to two angels. They were very real. Awesome experience. I have seen the hate, lies, murder, etc. of this world. How could anyone not believe in the devil? I have no proof that would stand up in court. That is why it is called "faith". Some of you guys make very light of the heaviest topic ever discussed. Take great care. |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 8:20:33 PM EDT
[#19]
[b]RikWriter[/b] -
You presented one of the more logical, unemotional posts here so I'll respond. How could God create us KNOWING some of us would "die" (that is, reject God and suffer the consequence of rejecting Him... eternal death)? I hope I don't offend by making this personal. You have a son? I'm sure you KNOW he's certainly going to experience pain, fear and loneliness. You also KNOW he's going to rebel against you at some point in his life and do things that you KNOW are harmful to him - maybe even reject you outright and destroy himself. Did you bring him into the world KNOWING he's going to suffer and die eventually? Of course you did. So why did you bring him into the world only to set him on a course where you KNOW the ultimate outcome will be his own death? (I have a son also and so I know the answer to that too.) In this little example, you're pretty much "omniscient" about your the ultimate outcome of your son's life aren't you? The details are just details - but you know the end result. He's going to suffer some and then die. But he's also going to live. You probably didn't have a son just to watch him die, you did it so he could live. And a part of you will live in him and through him. Regardless of the outcome, you gave your son the greatest thing you could ever create - [u]life[/u]. Likewise with God. |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 8:25:39 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Once again, Pascals Wager. But I choose not to live a life of delusion. I choose to live this life, rahter than deny myself in order to get preferential treatment in the "next" life. A LOT of people live very sad apthetic lives, "Hello MIDDLE EAST I'm looking at you guys", in order to satisfy some gobbilygook to get into paradise/heaven. That should be evidence of how wrong they are. If they knew the real God they wouldn't be so discontent with their life. You said: "rather than deny myself in order to get..." You clearly don't understand the Christian life if you could ever think of it as denying yourself. It brings good things in [b]this[/b] life as well as, presumably, the next. Here's some more Pascal: “There is enough light for those who desire only to see, and enough darkness for those of a contrary disposition.” From [b]Pensées[/b] |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 8:28:44 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: If an all powerful god allows evil to exist, what does that say about him? That he loves you enough to give you the gift of free will. The choice has been and will be yours/ours while in this skin we call life. We only get one shot at it. (satan (small s) to insult him.) SSD |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 8:37:03 PM EDT
[#22]
It may not be applicable JoJo (for you or I) but, for Christ's sake stop f*cking around with this BS and GO SEE A F*CKING DOCTOR!
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Posted: 4/12/2002 8:42:48 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: [b]Well here is how I feel. If we "go" someplace, and I don't have what it takes to get in, at least I'll know everyone where I'm going. And I'll be in good company. And at least Carla Faye Tucker won't be there.[/b] My brother-in-law says the same thing, except for the Carla Fay Tucker part. I roll my eyes, but I don't laugh. Actually, I have spent a lot of time thinking about the flip side of that sentiment. My pastor's view of Heaven is not the place I want to spend eternity. Kind of an odd thought. Life is a quandry. Not to worry AR-10, there is a place for all.. John 14:2 "In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 8:44:24 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Well here is how I feel. If we "go" someplace, and I don't have what it takes to get in, at least I'll know everyone where I'm going. And I'll be in good company. And at least Carla Faye Tucker won't be there. I know that a lot of people say "oh it will be great to meet so-and-so in heaven..." or "I'm going to read every book that was ever written when I get to heaven" (for those who are bookworms) or "I'm going to own every gun when I get to heaven" (for those like ourselves) etc. But for anyone who has had an event in their life where they briefly experienced something...Holy...for anyone who has briefly had just a drop of God's heavenly presence touch them...you know that in the next life we won't be worried about who's next to us. When near God, we will be completely consumed with His overwhelming presence and I don't think we'll care or even notice who is around. So many people try to paint heaven as "like earth but full of things we like" when this is simply not true (from Jesus' words and others' in the bible). Why am I telling you this? Maybe to try to reassure you that if Carla Faye Tucker is in heaven, you won't care. Hope you find your way |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 8:44:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Jesus is Lord.
Guess where I'm at on this Topic? I don't suppose I'm one of the Four. And, I hate getting in on West Coast Time for something like this. I am Christian. My view is that God is everything He says He is, and a LOT more that we can't even begin to comprehend. There isn't enough room on here to expound ad infinitum, nor am I trying to convince or sway or coerce anyone to believe as I do. I simply state what I think. I think if you cast your lot with Satan, it's like betting on the loser of Super Bowl 1... you're still gonna lose. Isn't it illogical for a created being to think he can sit with or above his creator? It was flawed thinking. Isn't it entirely logical to Create everything and allow it to unfold as it must to achieve the desired result? It was GOD thinking. Yes, He knew everything, but YOU don't. YOU have the choice. HE provided it. As is so often written here--- Your Mileage May Vary. |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 8:46:00 PM EDT
[#26]
Yes, I believe in the Devil......... He hides in the details of every piece of tax code and gun control legislation ever written! [}:D]
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Posted: 4/12/2002 8:47:50 PM EDT
[#27]
And I don't know why a creator would be limited to the rules of the created. In the same way, we aren't limited to the two dimensions of the picture we paint, to use a common analogy.
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Posted: 4/12/2002 8:50:11 PM EDT
[#28]
yes and he is a democrat.
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Posted: 4/12/2002 8:52:10 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Quoted: 2. What about God being omniscient strikes you as a bad thing? Almost everything---it's where Christianity falls to pieces. If God is TRULY omniscient, He knew everything that would happen before it happened. Thus, He knew... God is NOT on our time LINE, He can be on the out side of the time line we are on. He did not create the bad thing that happen, we do. He can go to any point on OUR time line and see what the out come of OUR actions were/will be. SSD |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 9:00:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Well said |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 9:01:18 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: God is NOT on our time LINE, He can be on the out side of the time line we are on. He did not create the bad thing that happen, we do. He can go to any point on OUR time line and see what the out come of OUR actions were/will be. That makes absolutely no sense at all. I am not sure if it is me not understanding what you're trying to get across or you not getting it across well, but somehow that seems like white noise. |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 9:22:14 PM EDT
[#32]
As one of the Faithful 4 (or do I assume too much?), I say that even if I didn't believe in a personal God, or a personal Satan, I would still have to be convinced that there was not someone or something extremely evil that was at work in the lives of mankind.
'The devil made me do it' is not just a funny line that Flip Wilson used in his comic drag routine as 'Josephine'. It is a rationale that has been used historically as a motive, when simply [u]no[/u] other explanation could be reasonably assigned. There are such times and events in the history of mankind in which this 'imp of the perverse' as Edgar Allen Poe lightly described it, has become something so unusually cruel and ferocious as to be very accurately described as a 'roaring lion roaming the earth seeking whom it might devour.' This 'roaring lion' has been present at various and sundry times in history and seemed to be content only when the whole essence of man's humanity was stripped from him and only an animal-like (or 'inhuman') lust for wanton evil and wickedness remained. Tell me that this roaring lion was [u]not[/u] present in the death camps of Nazi Germany. That it was [u]not[/u] present in the cockpits of four airliners on Sept 11. That it did [u]not[/u] rule the passions of such historical personages as Nero, Caligula, Vlad Tepes, Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, and countless other fiends in history's cavalcade of evil. As a matter of fact, I would suggest that from a purely human standpoint, we have much more credible evidence for the existence of Satan than we may have for the existence of God. It is only faith that compels me to believe in a Good and Just God. Newspapers and history books long ago removed any doubts that I may have had to the personal existence of Satan. Eric The(CallItWhateverYouWill-UnspeakableEvilExistsAndThrivesAmongUs)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 11:04:06 PM EDT
[#33]
Eric,
Not for an instant do I doubt the depth of feeling you may have about all the instances you refer to. But, this image of the roaring lion as a reflection of the devil's ferocity is a mere product of yourself and E.A.P's – another famous writer of fiction – imagination. YOU MADE IT UP! It is nothing more than fantasy image that you have scrambled together to support your beliefs and persuade others. Your Roaring Lion is just so much puff and magic – and, frankly is a good deal less persuavise than your usual material. How many more childish, ancient gimmicks is Eric the Witch Doctor going to drag out of his bag of ancient tricks – and scare the tribe! |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 11:35:53 PM EDT
[#34]
For all the non-belivers, explain LOVE, and then you will have a picture of GOD.
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Posted: 4/12/2002 11:44:26 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: According to modern mathematics, nuclear physics and older philosophy, there can be no good without there also being evil. I guess that I've never known the sciences of math or physics to make value judgements! Are you referring to specific quotes by individuals? To Newton's third law of balanced forces? To the feelings of scientists? Seems like name dropping to me, or at the very least, a case of argumentum ad verecundiam. And I don't know why a creator would be limited to the rules of the created. In the same way, we aren't limited to the two dimensions of the picture we paint, to use a common analogy. What are you talking about, Zonan? You must have intended to refer to another post, because your words are completely unrelated to mine. |
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Posted: 4/12/2002 11:50:50 PM EDT
[#36]
IMO there simply cannot as much hatred, violence and inhumanity as there is in the world without some type of influence from an evil entity like Satan, Moloch, or Mephistopholese.
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Posted: 4/12/2002 11:56:35 PM EDT
[#37]
Yes!
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Posted: 4/13/2002 12:06:49 AM EDT
[#38]
Hmmm, so to all you god beleivers... If you do follow god, then you have to follow complete, or not at all. Isn't one of the commandments "Thou shall not kill" ? Isn't the whole reason behind guns to kill? Be it man or beast, killing is killing. God did not say "Thou shall not kill, unless..." . Just BAM "Thou shall not kill". End of story. Mabye you need to reevaluate your beleifs.
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Posted: 4/13/2002 12:07:44 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: IMO there simply cannot as much hatred, violence and inhumanity as there is in the world without some type of influence from an evil entity like Satan, Moloch, or Mephistopholese [sic]. I'm afraid that I respectfully disagree, Imbroglio, because I believe that people are responsible for their actions. I have too much faith in humankind to dismiss evil as the product of an outsider's work. I can not abandon my faith in humans so easily. I will not. |
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Posted: 4/13/2002 12:15:08 AM EDT
[#40]
It is thou shall not murder.
If it was thou shall not kill then God has sinned many times and God can not sin! |
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Posted: 4/13/2002 12:18:39 AM EDT
[#41]
So killing all first born INTENTIONALLY is not murder?
Absolute power corrupts absolutely |
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Posted: 4/13/2002 12:21:40 AM EDT
[#42]
The concept of heaven and hell was thought of 2000 years ago. When people saw lava flowing from the earth they had to explain it somehow. The lava was hot, destructive, and generally unpleasant...surely some evil thing lived below them and caused it to come forth.
When people looked up in the sky and saw a place of peace and tranquility...somewhere they wanted to go, but couldn't...they decided that someday they would be finally able to go there. Since that time we have found out that the earth is not flat with heaven above and hell below, and it is not the center of the universe. Christianity is particularly odd in that if you make a death-bed confession all sins are forgiven and you get to go to heaven. I could shoot the freak'n pope(god's personal messenger on earth); fess up to it an hour later, and die that night...guess where I am going...up to meet the guy in the sky. Now to answer the question at hand...yes, yes I do.[rolleyes] |
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Posted: 4/13/2002 12:22:24 AM EDT
[#43]
YES. The Morning Star is as real as the God he opposed in his hunger for power...
Scott |
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Posted: 4/13/2002 12:36:08 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Hmmm, so to all you god beleivers... If you do follow god, then you have to follow complete, or not at all. Isn't one of the commandments "Thou shall not kill" ? Isn't the whole reason behind guns to kill? Be it man or beast, killing is killing. God did not say "Thou shall not kill, unless..." . Just BAM "Thou shall not kill". End of story. Mabye you need to reevaluate your beleifs. The original wording was "Thou shall not murder” And God did say "Thou shall not kill, unless..." A thief can be killed at night but not in daylight, in daylight a thief can be seen for identification and/or for chasing. SSD |
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Posted: 4/13/2002 1:00:44 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Quoted: God is NOT on our time LINE, He can be on the out side of the time line we are on. He did not create the bad thing that happen, we do. He can go to any point on OUR time line and see what the out come of OUR actions were/will be. That makes absolutely no sense at all. I am not sure if it is me not understanding what you're trying to get across or you not getting it across well, but somehow that seems like white noise. Probably me. The time we live is a line, we are forever moving forward on this line, we have no control of time (except daylight savings). God on the other hand is free to step off of this line and go to any place on the line He wishes. What God gave mankind in the beginning was good. After the choice was made (by us) to take of the fruit of knowledge (Eve and the apple thing), is when the ‘bad’ got its foothold on us. |
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Posted: 4/13/2002 2:27:30 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: I don't understand why you started this thread. It's called [b]trolling[/b]! [:D] |
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Posted: 4/13/2002 2:34:53 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: Quoted: Satan considers himself on the same level as God... Isaiah 14:13-15 "You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God: I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly on the upmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." I assume from the above that this is what Isaiah wrote with his pen and paper a considerable period after the "big bang" – or, at least a long time after these events (he claims) to have taken place. How come he has the only secret decoder ring – and why has nobody found it? Give me a break! Shouldn't knowledge of the "reply w/ quote" button precede ridicule here? Apparently not... |
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Posted: 4/13/2002 2:38:08 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: The big problem with the "God/Satan" "choose one or the other side" choice discounts those of us who just want to be left alone and not want to deal with this Puff-Headed Leader of Creation. Nobody has that choice. Everybody [b]will[/b] have to deal with Him when they die. We just want you to know that, my friend. Peace. -kid |
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Posted: 4/13/2002 3:36:33 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Quoted: Who is Carla Faye Tucker???? GB, I like you. And that is why I'm going to let you find the answer rather than tell you. [url]www.google.com[/url] Aren't I as useful as your 6th grade teacher? Ah, I remember now that I read a few articles. Since we're talking about jail house conversions, how about Sean Sellers, David Berkowitz and Tex Watson? They might claim to have found God, but I still wouldn't want them sleeping at my house. Well, don't have to worry about Sellers anymore... |
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Posted: 4/13/2002 4:06:32 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: Hmmm, so to all you god beleivers... If you do follow god, then you have to follow complete, or not at all. Isn't one of the commandments "Thou shall not kill" ? Isn't the whole reason behind guns to kill? Be it man or beast, killing is killing. God did not say "Thou shall not kill, unless..." . Just BAM "Thou shall not kill". End of story. Mabye you need to reevaluate your beleifs. Maybe you need to learn them. The Bible says "Thou shalt not MURDER," not kill. |
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