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Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:16:54 AM EDT
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Quoted:
With all these high priced additives people are running along with the high price for fuel...how is a diesel more economical to run..it sounds like they won't live without being petted and babied.
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My fleet runs a bulk commercial additive, for reference, about 100 class 6-8 trucks.

We burn about, 14000 gallons of fuel a week.

My treat cost this last year for summer additive (cetane booster) was about .5 cpg. (Not even a 1/2 cent.)

Where as winter additive for me runs about 1.0 cpg.

Treat rate is 1 gallon per 1500 of fuel for summer and basic winter.

Treat rate of 1 gallon per 750 for down go -30 on *some* fuels.

There are some fuels on the market that fuel additives does not work with at all.

Have all the test results from local refineries in the Ohio region, in black and white.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:17:54 AM EDT
Optilube.



From my research the problem is the SCAR rating of ULSD.




Its the CP4 from bosch that needs a SCAR rating of 460, in the US, ULSD has a min SCAR rating of 520 (Canada actually meets the SCAR requirements)




ITs been shown that B5 actually has the best lubricity to meet the SCAR rating, Opti is basically the next best thing.




YMMV






Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:29:34 AM EDT
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Quoted:
With all these high priced additives people are running along with the high price for fuel...how is a diesel more economical to run..it sounds like they won't live without being petted and babied.
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power service is about 4 cents per gallon.
diesel is currently cheaper then gas.
even still my diesel gets better MPG then my van.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:37:43 AM EDT
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Quoted:
Optilube.

From my research the problem is the SCAR rating of ULSD.


Its the CP4 from bosch that needs a SCAR rating of 460, in the US, ULSD has a min SCAR rating of 520 (Canada actually meets the SCAR requirements)


ITs been shown that B5 actually has the best lubricity to meet the SCAR rating, Opti is basically the next best thing.


YMMV




View Quote


Problem with your statement:

There is no api minimum or maximum for wear scar rating on ULSD.


The only requirements for ULSD in America are minimum cetane levels and max sulfer content.

Add on top of that, diesel varies so much in the US, from refinery to refinery, no two diesel fuels are alike.

Also, we get alot of Canadian fuel too.

There is a lubricity test for diesel fuel, atsm 6079. But its not a scar test.

However,  you can download and read atsm 975 yourself if you don't take my word for it.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 1:04:07 AM EDT

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Quoted:





power service is about 4 cents per gallon.

diesel is currently cheaper then gas.

even still my diesel gets better MPG then my van.
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Quoted:

With all these high priced additives people are running along with the high price for fuel...how is a diesel more economical to run..it sounds like they won't live without being petted and babied.


power service is about 4 cents per gallon.

diesel is currently cheaper then gas.

even still my diesel gets better MPG then my van.
It is higher priced here than gas. How much did it cost to buy the diesel over its gas counterpart. What is the payback over the life of the vehicle counting fuel, service, repair cost and depreciation. I am not anti diesel and I understand towing needs but most of the people I know don't haul anything more than their butts and groceries. I owned a 4x4 Izuzu truck back in the early 80's with a 4 cyl diesel that was non turbo and very gutless ...great milage though.

 
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 1:10:46 AM EDT
There's only one additive company that also happens to make injections pumps. Seems they would know what works best.


But on another note Optilube does beat everyone on the HFRR test. So there is that.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 1:37:42 AM EDT
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Opti Lube was top-rated in head to head testing.  I use it in my turbo diesel Bobcat.
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I use Opti Lube XPD in my GMC Duramax and VW TDI.  It's a demuslifer like Stanandyne.  The high pressure fuel pumps in TDI engines can be susceptible to wear from the low lubricity of ULSD.  I noticed when I started using the Opti Lube in my Duramax that I was catching a lot more water in the separator portion of the fuel filter.

My only two bitches about it is I have to buy it online (Stanandyne too), because there's not any dealers in my area.  And it stinks to high hell.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 2:30:19 AM EDT
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Quoted:



My fleet runs a bulk commercial additive, for reference, about 100 class 6-8 trucks.

We burn about, 14000 gallons of fuel a week.

My treat cost this last year for summer additive (cetane booster) was about .5 cpg. (Not even a 1/2 cent.)

Where as winter additive for me runs about 1.0 cpg.

Treat rate is 1 gallon per 1500 of fuel for summer and basic winter.

Treat rate of 1 gallon per 750 for down go -30 on *some* fuels.

There are some fuels on the market that fuel additives does not work with at all.

Have all the test results from local refineries in the Ohio region, in black and white.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
With all these high priced additives people are running along with the high price for fuel...how is a diesel more economical to run..it sounds like they won't live without being petted and babied.



My fleet runs a bulk commercial additive, for reference, about 100 class 6-8 trucks.

We burn about, 14000 gallons of fuel a week.

My treat cost this last year for summer additive (cetane booster) was about .5 cpg. (Not even a 1/2 cent.)

Where as winter additive for me runs about 1.0 cpg.

Treat rate is 1 gallon per 1500 of fuel for summer and basic winter.

Treat rate of 1 gallon per 750 for down go -30 on *some* fuels.

There are some fuels on the market that fuel additives does not work with at all.

Have all the test results from local refineries in the Ohio region, in black and white.


So, what additive do you run?
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 7:10:31 AM EDT

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Would you say additive is a must with LSDF?
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Quoted:

I run Howes in my 6.fo year round






Would you say additive is a must with LSDF?




 
A must?  Probably not, unless it's an older diesel.  Modern diesels are designed to run on ULSD.  That being said, it's lubricity is shit, so I run an additive.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 7:15:02 AM EDT
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A quart of cheap ATF in the 08 at every fill up.
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bingo.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 7:19:02 AM EDT
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fixed for me.
 
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I add 1oz per gal. Tcw3 outboard oil in my 7.3 psd  6.2L m1008 for years.
fixed for me.
 

lol, cucv will run on straight oil anything, military inj pump.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 7:19:46 AM EDT
I always put 1oz per gallon of TCW3 2 stroke oil in the tank of my 97' PSD. It definitely helps with mpg and quiets startup and idle especially in colder weather.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 7:29:52 AM EDT
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I bet if cummins offered a 300k warranty on fuel system components you'd take every opportunity to help it live longer.  Cummins uses Bosch components anyway. Injectors, regulators and cp4 pumps are all bosch...how much does cummins influence the design of these components?  
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Cummins engineer checking in.  No additives needed if your are keeping up with filter changes and draining water from filter.  Some places in the US do have some soap issues, so an additive to deal with soap deposits could be used.  Too many people have done more harm than good putting stuff that doesnt belong in thier fuel tank.  If we designed the engine to need additives it would be in the manual.
I bet if cummins offered a 300k warranty on fuel system components you'd take every opportunity to help it live longer.  Cummins uses Bosch components anyway. Injectors, regulators and cp4 pumps are all bosch...how much does cummins influence the design of these components?  


Very fair question, and in a number of our markets we do have products that are designed to go well past the equivalent of 300k miles.  Offering warranty up to that point is not necessarily a measure of product capability.  Cummins uses injection parts from Bosch as well as our own internal fuel systems group.  We have quite a bit of design influence on the components, including many of the up front technical specifications.   Clearly Bosch has expertise in the field as well so they bring that to the field.

What kills most of today's fuel systems is dirty fuel.  To get to the injection pressures and timing precision needed on today's engines, the clearances are incredibly tight in the fuel system.  Hard particles in the fuel that are measured in microns can do a tone of damage.  The only real way to handle those is through filtration.   Putting additives into the fuel may help with some of the lubricity concerns that came with ULSD, but modern fuel systems are designed to work well with it.

The other issue is what I mentioned with the "soap" phenomenon.  Without getting into too much detail, some of the additives the fuel suppliers use to help the fuel stay stable during bulk transfer, as well as some of the additives used to help it "flow" in the pipelines, can form a soap like substance that can cause injectors to stick.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 7:30:51 AM EDT
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Everyone with a diesel should be adding super tech 2 strokeStanadyne is the best though expensive as hell.
ULSD sucks
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What are your credentials to support your claim?
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 7:42:49 AM EDT
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My father bought a '83 MB 300SD in 1984. When he bought it, the mechanic in the dealership recommended putting a couple of ounces of outboard oil in the tank with every fillup.  He gave that car to me a few years ago and it now has 670k on the clock.  I don't know if the outboard oil has been a "secret" to the longevity of that engine, but I'll be damned if I'm going to break the habit now!  :)

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I add 1oz per gal. Tcw3 outboard oil in my 7.3 psd for years.


My father bought a '83 MB 300SD in 1984. When he bought it, the mechanic in the dealership recommended putting a couple of ounces of outboard oil in the tank with every fillup.  He gave that car to me a few years ago and it now has 670k on the clock.  I don't know if the outboard oil has been a "secret" to the longevity of that engine, but I'll be damned if I'm going to break the habit now!  :)



Its a Mercedes, that's why.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 7:56:17 AM EDT
A friend I have uses Marvel Mystery Oil every couple of fill-ups.  He said he can tell a difference.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:02:12 AM EDT
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So, what additive do you run?
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Quoted:
With all these high priced additives people are running along with the high price for fuel...how is a diesel more economical to run..it sounds like they won't live without being petted and babied.



My fleet runs a bulk commercial additive, for reference, about 100 class 6-8 trucks.

We burn about, 14000 gallons of fuel a week.

My treat cost this last year for summer additive (cetane booster) was about .5 cpg. (Not even a 1/2 cent.)

Where as winter additive for me runs about 1.0 cpg.

Treat rate is 1 gallon per 1500 of fuel for summer and basic winter.

Treat rate of 1 gallon per 750 for down go -30 on *some* fuels.

There are some fuels on the market that fuel additives does not work with at all.

Have all the test results from local refineries in the Ohio region, in black and white.


So, what additive do you run?



Afton OTR with green clean.

Afton, unlike most diesel additive "brands", is an a large chemical company, making everything from additives for fuel, to motor oil, to process oils and industrial products. They design the additive that everyone else bottles.

So in my case, for my level of consumption, I went directly to the source.

Edit:

We have been also using Gulf Diesel force additive, which comes from a newer additive R&D company in Canada, Terra Clean. And it's had a lot of success. But it needs to come down in cost a bit. It's currently 4-5cpg treat rate.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:03:38 AM EDT

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A quart of cheap ATF in the 08 at every fill up.
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Bad idea.  Red dye?  

 
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:07:17 AM EDT

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With all these high priced additives people are running along with the high price for fuel...how is a diesel more economical to run..it sounds like they won't live without being petted and babied.
View Quote
one of my employees had to drive 99 superduty the other day and he came back to report there was something wrong with the transmission cause if you hit the throttle it pushes you back into your seat when it shifts gears, it's not soft like his gas truck. real men would understand this

 
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:07:46 AM EDT
Why do people have this urge to pour things into diesel tanks that aren't engineered to be there? Really, really smart guys design engines. Add what they tell you to add: nothing.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:10:47 AM EDT
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A friend I have uses Marvel Mystery Oil every couple of fill-ups.  He said he can tell a difference.
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He only thinks he can. It's a placebo effect. Marvel Mystery Oil is 74 percent mineral oil, 25 percent paint thinner, and 1 percent lard. Really.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:26:31 AM EDT
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Why do people have this urge to pour things into diesel tanks that aren't engineered to be there? Really, really smart guys design engines. Add what they tell you to add: nothing.
View Quote



A fuel additives is needed on some levels. Lubricity is a problem in straight ULSD, to a point. However, there are several other problems with diesel fuel that people are not treating.

- water
- bacteria
- CFPP
- emissions (for those trucks equipped with it, which is starting to be a majority.)
- corrosion

The biggest issue facing diesel fuel today is water and bacteria (mother.) Most people don't run hygroscopic filters on their bulk fuel storage. Which means water gets into their trucks tank from their bulk storage. As well, people keep their tanks low and not filled up 100%. With a common rail engine, hot fuel returns from the engine into cold fuel. This creates condensation.

When water is around ULSD, the lack of sulfer in fuel now increases the chances of bacteria growing. This then causes fuel filter issues on board the trucks.

Modern diesel additives will have a biocide in them, that will kill the bacteria and break it down so that it can go (partially) through the fuel filters, then be burned. Water, of course, around metals promotes oxidation. So defeating the water means helping keep corrosion of lines down. Which is very important.

Adding something like a two stroke oil to a modern truck, will just sit in the tank and clog up fuel filters, doing a whole bunch of nothing. Maybe even fucking injectors up too by increasing partical count.


Of course in the winter time, fighting for CFPP is very important. #2 ULSD gels anywhere from 5f to -20f depending on the refinery. Some fuel, for CFPP is completely untreatable and the only thing you can do is blend #1 fuel in. These fuels though, are great summer fuels since they have a high wax content. The wax content adds lubricity.  But normal cold flow additives have not been able to defeat this. So, you do have to know your fuel, before spending your money on additive for the winter.


A good additive will clean injector deposits, which means a cleaner fuel pattern and a good mix with air. This means a cleaner burn and a hotter burn on the fuel. In turn, for emission equipped trucks, it will prolong the dpf and egr life of the truck.


Lubricity is a subject for fuel pumps and injectors. But in modern engines... Not the only problem.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:31:05 AM EDT
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Quoted:



A fuel additives is needed on some levels. Lubricity is a problem in straight ULSD, to a point. However, there are several other problems with diesel fuel that people are not treating.

- water
- bacteria
- CFPP
- emissions (for those trucks equipped with it, which is starting to be a majority.)
- corrosion

The biggest issue facing diesel fuel today is water and bacteria (mother.) Most people don't run hygroscopic filters on their bulk fuel storage. Which means water gets into their trucks tank from their bulk storage. As well, people keep their tanks low and not filled up 100%. With a common rail engine, hot fuel returns from the engine into cold fuel. This creates condensation.

When water is around ULSD, the lack of sulfer in fuel now increases the chances of bacteria growing. This then causes fuel filter issues on board the trucks.

Modern diesel additives will have a biocide in them, that will kill the bacteria and break it down so that it can go (partially) through the fuel filters, then be burned. Water, of course, around metals promotes oxidation. So defeating the water means helping keep corrosion of lines down. Which is very important.

Adding something like a two stroke oil to a modern truck, will just sit in the tank and clog up fuel filters, doing a whole bunch of nothing. Maybe even fucking injectors up too by increasing partical count.


Of course in the winter time, fighting for CFPP is very important. #2 ULSD gels anywhere from 5f to -20f depending on the refinery. Some fuel, for CFPP is completely untreatable and the only thing you can do is blend #1 fuel in. These fuels though, are great summer fuels since they have a high wax content. The wax content adds lubricity.  But normal cold flow additives have not been able to defeat this. So, you do have to know your fuel, before spending your money on additive for the winter.


A good additive will clean injector deposits, which means a cleaner fuel pattern and a good mix with air. This means a cleaner burn and a hotter burn on the fuel. In turn, for emission equipped trucks, it will prolong the dpf and egr life of the truck.


Lubricity is a subject for fuel pumps and injectors. But in modern engines... Not the only problem.
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Quoted:
Why do people have this urge to pour things into diesel tanks that aren't engineered to be there? Really, really smart guys design engines. Add what they tell you to add: nothing.



A fuel additives is needed on some levels. Lubricity is a problem in straight ULSD, to a point. However, there are several other problems with diesel fuel that people are not treating.

- water
- bacteria
- CFPP
- emissions (for those trucks equipped with it, which is starting to be a majority.)
- corrosion

The biggest issue facing diesel fuel today is water and bacteria (mother.) Most people don't run hygroscopic filters on their bulk fuel storage. Which means water gets into their trucks tank from their bulk storage. As well, people keep their tanks low and not filled up 100%. With a common rail engine, hot fuel returns from the engine into cold fuel. This creates condensation.

When water is around ULSD, the lack of sulfer in fuel now increases the chances of bacteria growing. This then causes fuel filter issues on board the trucks.

Modern diesel additives will have a biocide in them, that will kill the bacteria and break it down so that it can go (partially) through the fuel filters, then be burned. Water, of course, around metals promotes oxidation. So defeating the water means helping keep corrosion of lines down. Which is very important.

Adding something like a two stroke oil to a modern truck, will just sit in the tank and clog up fuel filters, doing a whole bunch of nothing. Maybe even fucking injectors up too by increasing partical count.


Of course in the winter time, fighting for CFPP is very important. #2 ULSD gels anywhere from 5f to -20f depending on the refinery. Some fuel, for CFPP is completely untreatable and the only thing you can do is blend #1 fuel in. These fuels though, are great summer fuels since they have a high wax content. The wax content adds lubricity.  But normal cold flow additives have not been able to defeat this. So, you do have to know your fuel, before spending your money on additive for the winter.


A good additive will clean injector deposits, which means a cleaner fuel pattern and a good mix with air. This means a cleaner burn and a hotter burn on the fuel. In turn, for emission equipped trucks, it will prolong the dpf and egr life of the truck.


Lubricity is a subject for fuel pumps and injectors. But in modern engines... Not the only problem.



Very good info.  
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:33:43 AM EDT
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one of my employees had to drive 99 superduty the other day and he came back to report there was something wrong with the transmission cause if you hit the throttle it pushes you back into your seat when it shifts gears, it's not soft like his gas truck. real men would understand this  
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With all these high priced additives people are running along with the high price for fuel...how is a diesel more economical to run..it sounds like they won't live without being petted and babied.
one of my employees had to drive 99 superduty the other day and he came back to report there was something wrong with the transmission cause if you hit the throttle it pushes you back into your seat when it shifts gears, it's not soft like his gas truck. real men would understand this  

Derp!
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:34:53 AM EDT
nothing.  i turn the key and drive it.
oil change/fuel filter changes every 10k miles or so.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:37:50 AM EDT
Diesel Kleen with every tank full
bio kleen about every 6 months

PRI-D when in storage

But my truck is a lot bigger...855ci
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:40:51 AM EDT
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He only thinks he can. It's a placebo effect. Marvel Mystery Oil is 74 percent mineral oil, 25 percent paint thinner, and 1 percent lard. Really.
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A friend I have uses Marvel Mystery Oil every couple of fill-ups.  He said he can tell a difference.


He only thinks he can. It's a placebo effect. Marvel Mystery Oil is 74 percent mineral oil, 25 percent paint thinner, and 1 percent lard. Really.


His reasoning was that it cleans out his engine, injectors etc.  Much like what the ATF and other additives with detergents would do.  He said that once he adds it in for the next day or two the exhaust is blacker than normal. In his mind that's the "cleaning" effect happening.  This s probably what helps to convince him that it is running "better" since it is being cleaned internally.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:45:41 AM EDT
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His reasoning was that it cleans out his engine, injectors etc.  Much like what the ATF and other additives with detergents would do.  He said that once he adds it in for the next day or two the exhaust is blacker than normal. In his mind that's the "cleaning" effect happening.  This s probably what helps to convince him that it is running "better" since it is being cleaned internally.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
A friend I have uses Marvel Mystery Oil every couple of fill-ups.  He said he can tell a difference.


He only thinks he can. It's a placebo effect. Marvel Mystery Oil is 74 percent mineral oil, 25 percent paint thinner, and 1 percent lard. Really.


His reasoning was that it cleans out his engine, injectors etc.  Much like what the ATF and other additives with detergents would do.  He said that once he adds it in for the next day or two the exhaust is blacker than normal. In his mind that's the "cleaning" effect happening.  This s probably what helps to convince him that it is running "better" since it is being cleaned internally.



Assuming a stock truck (non-tuned), the black smoke is unburnt fuel. So the computer is probably trying to correct for additive and dumping more fuel into the cylinders.

There are tools and chemicals to clean engines out with. Intake cleaners, injector cleaners, oil systems cleaners, etc.. Dumping marvels mystery oil into your tank isn't really one of them. But hey, not my money.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:50:51 AM EDT
I've been running Optilube in my Duramax for some time now, not cheap and must order online, but seemed to make a bit of a difference.


Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:55:00 AM EDT
I use Howes Diesel Treat during the winter to help with gelling. I was running it year round(it is a year round formula)but it got to be too expensive for the small gain I noticed.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 8:57:19 AM EDT
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I run Howes in my 6.fo year round
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Same here, but in a '07 5.9 cummins.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 9:06:19 AM EDT
WD-40 and Simple Green every tank.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 9:07:10 AM EDT
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A fuel additives is needed on some levels. Lubricity is a problem in straight ULSD, to a point. However, there are several other problems with diesel fuel that people are not treating.

- water
- bacteria
- CFPP
- emissions (for those trucks equipped with it, which is starting to be a majority.)
- corrosion

The biggest issue facing diesel fuel today is water and bacteria (mother.) Most people don't run hygroscopic filters on their bulk fuel storage. Which means water gets into their trucks tank from their bulk storage. As well, people keep their tanks low and not filled up 100%. With a common rail engine, hot fuel returns from the engine into cold fuel. This creates condensation.

When water is around ULSD, the lack of sulfer in fuel now increases the chances of bacteria growing. This then causes fuel filter issues on board the trucks.

Modern diesel additives will have a biocide in them, that will kill the bacteria and break it down so that it can go (partially) through the fuel filters, then be burned. Water, of course, around metals promotes oxidation. So defeating the water means helping keep corrosion of lines down. Which is very important.

Adding something like a two stroke oil to a modern truck, will just sit in the tank and clog up fuel filters, doing a whole bunch of nothing. Maybe even fucking injectors up too by increasing partical count.


Of course in the winter time, fighting for CFPP is very important. #2 ULSD gels anywhere from 5f to -20f depending on the refinery. Some fuel, for CFPP is completely untreatable and the only thing you can do is blend #1 fuel in. These fuels though, are great summer fuels since they have a high wax content. The wax content adds lubricity.  But normal cold flow additives have not been able to defeat this. So, you do have to know your fuel, before spending your money on additive for the winter.


A good additive will clean injector deposits, which means a cleaner fuel pattern and a good mix with air. This means a cleaner burn and a hotter burn on the fuel. In turn, for emission equipped trucks, it will prolong the dpf and egr life of the truck.


Lubricity is a subject for fuel pumps and injectors. But in modern engines... Not the only problem.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Why do people have this urge to pour things into diesel tanks that aren't engineered to be there? Really, really smart guys design engines. Add what they tell you to add: nothing.



A fuel additives is needed on some levels. Lubricity is a problem in straight ULSD, to a point. However, there are several other problems with diesel fuel that people are not treating.

- water
- bacteria
- CFPP
- emissions (for those trucks equipped with it, which is starting to be a majority.)
- corrosion

The biggest issue facing diesel fuel today is water and bacteria (mother.) Most people don't run hygroscopic filters on their bulk fuel storage. Which means water gets into their trucks tank from their bulk storage. As well, people keep their tanks low and not filled up 100%. With a common rail engine, hot fuel returns from the engine into cold fuel. This creates condensation.

When water is around ULSD, the lack of sulfer in fuel now increases the chances of bacteria growing. This then causes fuel filter issues on board the trucks.

Modern diesel additives will have a biocide in them, that will kill the bacteria and break it down so that it can go (partially) through the fuel filters, then be burned. Water, of course, around metals promotes oxidation. So defeating the water means helping keep corrosion of lines down. Which is very important.

Adding something like a two stroke oil to a modern truck, will just sit in the tank and clog up fuel filters, doing a whole bunch of nothing. Maybe even fucking injectors up too by increasing partical count.


Of course in the winter time, fighting for CFPP is very important. #2 ULSD gels anywhere from 5f to -20f depending on the refinery. Some fuel, for CFPP is completely untreatable and the only thing you can do is blend #1 fuel in. These fuels though, are great summer fuels since they have a high wax content. The wax content adds lubricity.  But normal cold flow additives have not been able to defeat this. So, you do have to know your fuel, before spending your money on additive for the winter.


A good additive will clean injector deposits, which means a cleaner fuel pattern and a good mix with air. This means a cleaner burn and a hotter burn on the fuel. In turn, for emission equipped trucks, it will prolong the dpf and egr life of the truck.


Lubricity is a subject for fuel pumps and injectors. But in modern engines... Not the only problem.

Diesel fuel is literally sterile when it leaves the refinery. Unless you're going to store it for a long time, you don't need biocides. Or stabilizers.

And it already has additives in it to improve lubricity and ignition, reduce smoke and foam, inhibit corrosion, prevent build-ups, etc.

And it's already formulated for either winter or summer. Unless you buy it in Florida and then transport it to Maine for use, there's no reason for anti-gel additives.

It's unlikely that you or I know more about fuel than the world's best petroleum engineers. And we certainly don't have their mixing and testing equipment.

Aftermarket additives are almost all snake-oil. Even if they do contain useful things like detergents or corrosion inhibitors, those things are already present. When you alter your fuel, it's far more likely to have negative consequences than positive. You may clog filters, or induce chemical reactions between components, or void warranties. At the very least, you are wasting your money.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 9:12:07 AM EDT

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Very fair question, and in a number of our markets we do have products that are designed to go well past the equivalent of 300k miles.  Offering warranty up to that point is not necessarily a measure of product capability.  Cummins uses injection parts from Bosch as well as our own internal fuel systems group.  We have quite a bit of design influence on the components, including many of the up front technical specifications.   Clearly Bosch has expertise in the field as well so they bring that to the field.



What kills most of today's fuel systems is dirty fuel.  To get to the injection pressures and timing precision needed on today's engines, the clearances are incredibly tight in the fuel system.  Hard particles in the fuel that are measured in microns can do a tone of damage.  The only real way to handle those is through filtration.   Putting additives into the fuel may help with some of the lubricity concerns that came with ULSD, but modern fuel systems are designed to work well with it.



The other issue is what I mentioned with the "soap" phenomenon.  Without getting into too much detail, some of the additives the fuel suppliers use to help the fuel stay stable during bulk transfer, as well as some of the additives used to help it "flow" in the pipelines, can form a soap like substance that can cause injectors to stick.

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Cummins engineer checking in.  No additives needed if your are keeping up with filter changes and draining water from filter.  Some places in the US do have some soap issues, so an additive to deal with soap deposits could be used.  Too many people have done more harm than good putting stuff that doesnt belong in thier fuel tank.  If we designed the engine to need additives it would be in the manual.
I bet if cummins offered a 300k warranty on fuel system components you'd take every opportunity to help it live longer.  Cummins uses Bosch components anyway. Injectors, regulators and cp4 pumps are all bosch...how much does cummins influence the design of these components?  




Very fair question, and in a number of our markets we do have products that are designed to go well past the equivalent of 300k miles.  Offering warranty up to that point is not necessarily a measure of product capability.  Cummins uses injection parts from Bosch as well as our own internal fuel systems group.  We have quite a bit of design influence on the components, including many of the up front technical specifications.   Clearly Bosch has expertise in the field as well so they bring that to the field.



What kills most of today's fuel systems is dirty fuel.  To get to the injection pressures and timing precision needed on today's engines, the clearances are incredibly tight in the fuel system.  Hard particles in the fuel that are measured in microns can do a tone of damage.  The only real way to handle those is through filtration.   Putting additives into the fuel may help with some of the lubricity concerns that came with ULSD, but modern fuel systems are designed to work well with it.



The other issue is what I mentioned with the "soap" phenomenon.  Without getting into too much detail, some of the additives the fuel suppliers use to help the fuel stay stable during bulk transfer, as well as some of the additives used to help it "flow" in the pipelines, can form a soap like substance that can cause injectors to stick.

Good info and I agree with it. My point with the warranty was that it's not entirely genuine to say that if it was needed it would be in the manual.  It's not needed in order for most of the units made to reach the warranty period, which in the case of modern light duty diesels is 100k miles due to emissions regulations. If cummins had abundant confidence in the longevity of the fuel system a 2 or 300k mile warranty would completely corner the market.

 



You and I both know nobody buys a cummins to go 100k. Most guys consider that "broken in".  You also know that a set of injectors and cp4 pump with the labor to swap them can set you back about 6 grand. So it's understandable when owners who depend on the vehicle for income to do everything they can to extend the life of the fuel system. Go design a system that will survive for the overhaul interval of the rest of the engine and prevents gelling and the additive market will go away.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 9:21:23 AM EDT
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Diesel fuel is literally sterile when it leaves the refinery. Unless you're going to store it for a long time, you don't need biocides. Or stabilizers.

And it already has additives in it to improve lubricity and ignition, reduce smoke and foam, inhibit corrosion, prevent build-ups, etc.

And it's already formulated for either winter or summer. Unless you buy it in Florida and then transport it to Maine for use, there's no reason for anti-gel additives.

It's unlikely that you or I know more about fuel than the world's best petroleum engineers. And we certainly don't have their mixing and testing equipment.

Aftermarket additives are almost all snake-oil. Even if they do contain useful things like detergents or corrosion inhibitors, those things are already present. When you alter your fuel, it's far more likely to have negative consequences than positive. You may clog filters, or induce chemical reactions between components, or void warranties. At the very least, you are wasting your money.
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Why do people have this urge to pour things into diesel tanks that aren't engineered to be there? Really, really smart guys design engines. Add what they tell you to add: nothing.



A fuel additives is needed on some levels. Lubricity is a problem in straight ULSD, to a point. However, there are several other problems with diesel fuel that people are not treating.

- water
- bacteria
- CFPP
- emissions (for those trucks equipped with it, which is starting to be a majority.)
- corrosion

The biggest issue facing diesel fuel today is water and bacteria (mother.) Most people don't run hygroscopic filters on their bulk fuel storage. Which means water gets into their trucks tank from their bulk storage. As well, people keep their tanks low and not filled up 100%. With a common rail engine, hot fuel returns from the engine into cold fuel. This creates condensation.

When water is around ULSD, the lack of sulfer in fuel now increases the chances of bacteria growing. This then causes fuel filter issues on board the trucks.

Modern diesel additives will have a biocide in them, that will kill the bacteria and break it down so that it can go (partially) through the fuel filters, then be burned. Water, of course, around metals promotes oxidation. So defeating the water means helping keep corrosion of lines down. Which is very important.

Adding something like a two stroke oil to a modern truck, will just sit in the tank and clog up fuel filters, doing a whole bunch of nothing. Maybe even fucking injectors up too by increasing partical count.


Of course in the winter time, fighting for CFPP is very important. #2 ULSD gels anywhere from 5f to -20f depending on the refinery. Some fuel, for CFPP is completely untreatable and the only thing you can do is blend #1 fuel in. These fuels though, are great summer fuels since they have a high wax content. The wax content adds lubricity.  But normal cold flow additives have not been able to defeat this. So, you do have to know your fuel, before spending your money on additive for the winter.


A good additive will clean injector deposits, which means a cleaner fuel pattern and a good mix with air. This means a cleaner burn and a hotter burn on the fuel. In turn, for emission equipped trucks, it will prolong the dpf and egr life of the truck.


Lubricity is a subject for fuel pumps and injectors. But in modern engines... Not the only problem.

Diesel fuel is literally sterile when it leaves the refinery. Unless you're going to store it for a long time, you don't need biocides. Or stabilizers.

And it already has additives in it to improve lubricity and ignition, reduce smoke and foam, inhibit corrosion, prevent build-ups, etc.

And it's already formulated for either winter or summer. Unless you buy it in Florida and then transport it to Maine for use, there's no reason for anti-gel additives.

It's unlikely that you or I know more about fuel than the world's best petroleum engineers. And we certainly don't have their mixing and testing equipment.

Aftermarket additives are almost all snake-oil. Even if they do contain useful things like detergents or corrosion inhibitors, those things are already present. When you alter your fuel, it's far more likely to have negative consequences than positive. You may clog filters, or induce chemical reactions between components, or void warranties. At the very least, you are wasting your money.



Sterile?

Besides the asphaltics that end up in the bottom of every tank?

Besides the water that's in a terminal or refineries tank?

Besides the water that is in the truck stop or gas station tank? (Typically about 6-12 inches, depending on the size of the underground tank.)

Besides the water that is in your own tank from above reasons?

Besides the water in your own personal bulk tank?

Fuel is naturally hygroscopic. If its open to air it will grab water.


Fun fact. Not all fuel is created equal. Not all regions have summer and winter blends. Often times the CFPP... doesnt change.

Also fun fact: I do have the mixing and testing equipment, as its part of my job. We independently test our regions fuel twice a year. Yes, it does change. No, it does not change that much.

Additives do work as long as you know what you're buying and what exactly, they're designed to do.


How do I know this? I sell fuel to a few thousand customers in several states. Let alone my own fleet. I also happen to be one of the largest bulk oil distributors in the country. I work with those top petroleum engineers to design their additives.  Like I'm doing for PC-11, which is the next generation of diesel engine oil.

As I said before, if you don't believe me, you don't have to. You're more then welcome to come to my office and see the test results.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:04:33 AM EDT
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Why do people have this urge to pour things into diesel tanks that aren't engineered to be there? Really, really smart guys design engines. Add what they tell you to add: nothing.
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If they are so smart explain the 6.0 powerjoke, or the injector access on the lb7, or the overheating issue with lly's because they didn't account for the increase in needed airflow?
Auto engineers fuck up/overlook stuff pretty regular
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:14:53 AM EDT
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Diesel fuel is literally sterile when it leaves the refinery. Unless you're going to store it for a long time, you don't need biocides. Or stabilizers.

And it already has additives in it to improve lubricity and ignition, reduce smoke and foam, inhibit corrosion, prevent build-ups, etc.

And it's already formulated for either winter or summer. Unless you buy it in Florida and then transport it to Maine for use, there's no reason for anti-gel additives.

It's unlikely that you or I know more about fuel than the world's best petroleum engineers. And we certainly don't have their mixing and testing equipment.

Aftermarket additives are almost all snake-oil. Even if they do contain useful things like detergents or corrosion inhibitors, those things are already present. When you alter your fuel, it's far more likely to have negative consequences than positive. You may clog filters, or induce chemical reactions between components, or void warranties. At the very least, you are wasting your money.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why do people have this urge to pour things into diesel tanks that aren't engineered to be there? Really, really smart guys design engines. Add what they tell you to add: nothing.



A fuel additives is needed on some levels. Lubricity is a problem in straight ULSD, to a point. However, there are several other problems with diesel fuel that people are not treating.

- water
- bacteria
- CFPP
- emissions (for those trucks equipped with it, which is starting to be a majority.)
- corrosion

The biggest issue facing diesel fuel today is water and bacteria (mother.) Most people don't run hygroscopic filters on their bulk fuel storage. Which means water gets into their trucks tank from their bulk storage. As well, people keep their tanks low and not filled up 100%. With a common rail engine, hot fuel returns from the engine into cold fuel. This creates condensation.

When water is around ULSD, the lack of sulfer in fuel now increases the chances of bacteria growing. This then causes fuel filter issues on board the trucks.

Modern diesel additives will have a biocide in them, that will kill the bacteria and break it down so that it can go (partially) through the fuel filters, then be burned. Water, of course, around metals promotes oxidation. So defeating the water means helping keep corrosion of lines down. Which is very important.

Adding something like a two stroke oil to a modern truck, will just sit in the tank and clog up fuel filters, doing a whole bunch of nothing. Maybe even fucking injectors up too by increasing partical count.


Of course in the winter time, fighting for CFPP is very important. #2 ULSD gels anywhere from 5f to -20f depending on the refinery. Some fuel, for CFPP is completely untreatable and the only thing you can do is blend #1 fuel in. These fuels though, are great summer fuels since they have a high wax content. The wax content adds lubricity.  But normal cold flow additives have not been able to defeat this. So, you do have to know your fuel, before spending your money on additive for the winter.


A good additive will clean injector deposits, which means a cleaner fuel pattern and a good mix with air. This means a cleaner burn and a hotter burn on the fuel. In turn, for emission equipped trucks, it will prolong the dpf and egr life of the truck.


Lubricity is a subject for fuel pumps and injectors. But in modern engines... Not the only problem.

Diesel fuel is literally sterile when it leaves the refinery. Unless you're going to store it for a long time, you don't need biocides. Or stabilizers.

And it already has additives in it to improve lubricity and ignition, reduce smoke and foam, inhibit corrosion, prevent build-ups, etc.

And it's already formulated for either winter or summer. Unless you buy it in Florida and then transport it to Maine for use, there's no reason for anti-gel additives.

It's unlikely that you or I know more about fuel than the world's best petroleum engineers. And we certainly don't have their mixing and testing equipment.

Aftermarket additives are almost all snake-oil. Even if they do contain useful things like detergents or corrosion inhibitors, those things are already present. When you alter your fuel, it's far more likely to have negative consequences than positive. You may clog filters, or induce chemical reactions between components, or void warranties. At the very least, you are wasting your money.

Spot on.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:24:34 AM EDT
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Run in every tank! I've used power service for 15 years in the same truck, water is the problem. Diesel loves to suck up water, the common rail in your cummins is the same system as a duramax, Bosch injectors running 30,000 psi do not like water or particulate.

Run in every tank. Buy fuel from a high volume station when you can. Change filters regularly.
 
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This.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:25:46 AM EDT
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Good info and I agree with it. My point with the warranty was that it's not entirely genuine to say that if it was needed it would be in the manual.  It's not needed in order for most of the units made to reach the warranty period, which in the case of modern light duty diesels is 100k miles due to emissions regulations. If cummins had abundant confidence in the longevity of the fuel system a 2 or 300k mile warranty would completely corner the market.    

You and I both know nobody buys a cummins to go 100k. Most guys consider that "broken in".  You also know that a set of injectors and cp4 pump with the labor to swap them can set you back about 6 grand. So it's understandable when owners who depend on the vehicle for income to do everything they can to extend the life of the fuel system. Go design a system that will survive for the overhaul interval of the rest of the engine and prevents gelling and the additive market will go away.
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Cummins engineer checking in.  No additives needed if your are keeping up with filter changes and draining water from filter.  Some places in the US do have some soap issues, so an additive to deal with soap deposits could be used.  Too many people have done more harm than good putting stuff that doesnt belong in thier fuel tank.  If we designed the engine to need additives it would be in the manual.
I bet if cummins offered a 300k warranty on fuel system components you'd take every opportunity to help it live longer.  Cummins uses Bosch components anyway. Injectors, regulators and cp4 pumps are all bosch...how much does cummins influence the design of these components?  


Very fair question, and in a number of our markets we do have products that are designed to go well past the equivalent of 300k miles.  Offering warranty up to that point is not necessarily a measure of product capability.  Cummins uses injection parts from Bosch as well as our own internal fuel systems group.  We have quite a bit of design influence on the components, including many of the up front technical specifications.   Clearly Bosch has expertise in the field as well so they bring that to the field.

What kills most of today's fuel systems is dirty fuel.  To get to the injection pressures and timing precision needed on today's engines, the clearances are incredibly tight in the fuel system.  Hard particles in the fuel that are measured in microns can do a tone of damage.  The only real way to handle those is through filtration.   Putting additives into the fuel may help with some of the lubricity concerns that came with ULSD, but modern fuel systems are designed to work well with it.

The other issue is what I mentioned with the "soap" phenomenon.  Without getting into too much detail, some of the additives the fuel suppliers use to help the fuel stay stable during bulk transfer, as well as some of the additives used to help it "flow" in the pipelines, can form a soap like substance that can cause injectors to stick.
Good info and I agree with it. My point with the warranty was that it's not entirely genuine to say that if it was needed it would be in the manual.  It's not needed in order for most of the units made to reach the warranty period, which in the case of modern light duty diesels is 100k miles due to emissions regulations. If cummins had abundant confidence in the longevity of the fuel system a 2 or 300k mile warranty would completely corner the market.    

You and I both know nobody buys a cummins to go 100k. Most guys consider that "broken in".  You also know that a set of injectors and cp4 pump with the labor to swap them can set you back about 6 grand. So it's understandable when owners who depend on the vehicle for income to do everything they can to extend the life of the fuel system. Go design a system that will survive for the overhaul interval of the rest of the engine and prevents gelling and the additive market will go away.


I agree with you...our engines are designed to go past 100k miles, and people buy them for that reason.  But it would be a foolish business proposition to offer a 300k mile warranty with our OEM customers paying for the engine to have a 100k warranty.   What often happens in the case of large commercial fleets is options of extended warranties or additional policy dollars to help offset some post warranty expenses.

My points about the additives are that more often than note, they do more harm than good to the engine system.   People should worry much more about maintaining clean fuel (i.e. regular fuel filter changes) than about what additive they should put in the fuel.


Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:36:58 AM EDT
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If they are so smart explain the 6.0 powerjoke, or the injector access on the lb7, or the overheating issue with lly's because they didn't account for the increase in needed airflow?
Auto engineers fuck up/overlook stuff pretty regular
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Why do people have this urge to pour things into diesel tanks that aren't engineered to be there? Really, really smart guys design engines. Add what they tell you to add: nothing.

If they are so smart explain the 6.0 powerjoke, or the injector access on the lb7, or the overheating issue with lly's because they didn't account for the increase in needed airflow?
Auto engineers fuck up/overlook stuff pretty regular

I did a Google search for that perfect diesel engine engineered by J75player.

Seriously: engines aren't perfect, therefore we should pour crap in the fuel tanks even though the designers, engineers and manufacturers tell us not to?
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:38:33 AM EDT
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Run in every tank! I've used power service for 15 years in the same truck, water is the problem. Diesel loves to suck up water, the common rail in your cummins is the same system as a duramax, Bosch injectors running 30,000 psi do not like water or particulate.

Run in every tank. Buy fuel from a high volume station when you can. Change filters regularly.
 
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Listen to this guy.

Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:44:28 AM EDT
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It is higher priced here than gas. How much did it cost to buy the diesel over its gas counterpart. What is the payback over the life of the vehicle counting fuel, service, repair cost and depreciation. I am not anti diesel and I understand towing needs but most of the people I know don't haul anything more than their butts and groceries. I owned a 4x4 Izuzu truck back in the early 80's with a 4 cyl diesel that was non turbo and very gutless ...great milage though.  
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With all these high priced additives people are running along with the high price for fuel...how is a diesel more economical to run..it sounds like they won't live without being petted and babied.

power service is about 4 cents per gallon.
diesel is currently cheaper then gas.
even still my diesel gets better MPG then my van.
It is higher priced here than gas. How much did it cost to buy the diesel over its gas counterpart. What is the payback over the life of the vehicle counting fuel, service, repair cost and depreciation. I am not anti diesel and I understand towing needs but most of the people I know don't haul anything more than their butts and groceries. I owned a 4x4 Izuzu truck back in the early 80's with a 4 cyl diesel that was non turbo and very gutless ...great milage though.  

even with it higher priced its cheaper per mile to drive my 3500 CCLB dually most often then my van
van gets 14-15 MPG (comparable to most 1500 trucks)
LBZ gets 19mpg average on the highway. upto 21 on a good day with all highway.
gas right now is 2.59 or 18.5 cents per mile with the van
diesel would need to be at 3.19 to be the same cost per mile
maintenance is basically a wash between them. oil changes for the diesel cost a little bit more, but with nearly double the interval.
over the long term the maintenance on the diesel is less because has a longer service live. 200k in a gaser is about the same as 350-400k in a diesel.
yes I do haul with it, but I also commute with it because it is cheaper to drive, has a nicer ride and more power then my van
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:49:16 AM EDT
TC-W3

FTW
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:49:25 AM EDT
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I did a Google search for that perfect diesel engine engineered by J75player.

Seriously: engines aren't perfect, therefore we should pour crap in the fuel tanks even though the designers, engineers and manufacturers tell us not to?
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Why do people have this urge to pour things into diesel tanks that aren't engineered to be there? Really, really smart guys design engines. Add what they tell you to add: nothing.

If they are so smart explain the 6.0 powerjoke, or the injector access on the lb7, or the overheating issue with lly's because they didn't account for the increase in needed airflow?
Auto engineers fuck up/overlook stuff pretty regular

I did a Google search for that perfect diesel engine engineered by J75player.

Seriously: engines aren't perfect, therefore we should pour crap in the fuel tanks even though the designers, engineers and manufacturers tell us not to?



Yet the largest producer of engines recommends fuel additives.

Seriously quit with the derp. Fuel additive has been recommended by engine manifactuers for decades. Fuel is not perfect, engines are not perfect. Storage is not perfect. Transport is not perfect.

Water, dirt, bacteria... It happens. Alot.

My family has been in the fuel business since about when diesel actually came out.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:50:02 AM EDT
Full disclosure, I'm a Power Service MWD in the Midwest. I wholesale literally dozens of truckloads of the product every year.

ULSD should be treated with a cetane booster and lubricity additive in the summer, and antigel/centne booster in the winter. Many of my customers are fuel blenders or terminals who also treat their bulk storage tanks regularly with a bio-cide and water remover.

Check with your fuel supplier or regular fuel station and see if they are already treating their fuel. 90% of my customers are bulk blenders who supply retail stations and treat their diesel prior to it going to the station.

If you are int he upper midwest, there is a very good chance you are already getting treated fuel and you just don't know it.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:57:22 AM EDT
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Listen to this guy.

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Run in every tank! I've used power service for 15 years in the same truck, water is the problem. Diesel loves to suck up water, the common rail in your cummins is the same system as a duramax, Bosch injectors running 30,000 psi do not like water or particulate.

Run in every tank. Buy fuel from a high volume station when you can. Change filters regularly.
 


Listen to this guy.


Additives are ESPECIALLY bad in common-rail injection systems. Look at the ingredients in Power Service Diesel Kleen: almost entirely solvents like naphtha, which REDUCE lubricity. I guess that's why they call it "Diesel Kleen" and not "Diesel Lube". If they were honest they'd call it "Diesel Snake Oil".

Changing oil and filters on schedule is good advice. Using fresh, good quality fuel is good advice. Wasting money on additives that do nothing positive for your engine is not good advice.

Just because your engine keeps running after you pour solvents in its fuel tank doesn't mean it was a good idea.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:00:31 AM EDT
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... If you are int he upper midwest, there is a very good chance you are already getting treated fuel and you just don't know it.
View Quote

All diesel fuel is treated with all kinds of additives, at several stages, by people who actually know what they're doing.

That's why it's unnecessary at best to add more, unless there's a specific reason like long-term storage.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:02:15 AM EDT
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Would you say additive is a must with LSDF?
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I run Howes in my 6.fo year round



Would you say additive is a must with LSDF?


Not in your 6.7. Unless the emissions junk magically fell off when you hit a big pothole, they're designed for ULSD and have been since 08. Emissions junk is finicky, so the most I would add is an anti-gel treatment in the winter.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:15:55 AM EDT
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Cummins engineer checking in.  No additives needed if your are keeping up with filter changes and draining water from filter.  Some places in the US do have some sope issues, so an additive to deal with soap deposits could be used.  Too many people have done more harm than good putting stuff that doesnt belong in thier fuel tank.  If we designed the engine to need additives it would be in the manual.
View Quote


It is my understanding that in the 2003 dodge bosch called for 2 micron filtration for the cp3 and injectors but dodge installed a 10 micron filter in the filter housing.  After having a cp3 blow up and throw metal shavings into my entire fuel system and having to tear down the entire fuel system I now run a Donaldson P551313 with a Baldwin Bf 1275.  From what I have read and researched this are the 2 best filters I can run. For the amount of money paid for these trucks they should come from the factory with fuel filters like this. I see mention of the problems in the diesel fuel and needing great filtration but I know my truck didn't come with good filters. Maybe the new trucks do I don't know because after looking at buying a new truck in 2013 I decided I would drive this 03 until the wheels fall off and then put new wheels on it.
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