Quoted: Everyday there is thread started by AR15fan that decries the treatment of police officers.  I bet for every story like this, there are a thousand stories about police inefficiency, corruption, mistreatment of non-convicted persons, wrong-address raids, false arrests, brutality, strong-arm tactics, civilian shake-downs just to generate revenue, late night fishing expeditions because some patrolman was bored and a dozen other things cops get away with on a daily basis just becasue they have a badge that DO NOT get reported because no one was there other than the cop and the cop's victim. We live a society steadily creeping toward the draconian one Orwell wrote about in 1984 and the everyday police officer is as much a part of this as the Homeland Security Department.  The days of the Norman Rockwell police officer are over.

Funny. The cop in that painting would have clubbed you over the head for just thinking what you just typed.  Things have gotten better, not worse.  Cops are less violent and more accountable for their actions than ever before.  

It is storys like this one which keeps qualified people away from law enforcement. Walling that community off and letting them exterminate themselves isnt a bad idea at all.

Quoted: I find it hard to ever excuse attacking a police officer, or anyone else for that matter.  I am puzzled as to why this officer was attending to a domestic disturbance call unassisted though.

They likely dispatched two officers and one just got there faster. Cops, unlike firefighters, do not usually stage and wait until everyone is on scene.  

If its a priority one call you go straight there, immediately. Whoever gets there first handles the call, whoever arrives second is the cover officer.

Ugh, stupid people disgust me, I hope the attacker is found guilty on all charges.

Quoted: How did someone get close enough to choke a SWAT team member without several 9mm perforations in his chest?........Also the second officer showed alot of restraint......If I was the second officer and I show up to a  wrestling match between another officer and a bad guy, the bad guy is dead......

It's not worthdeadly force to be close to a cop. Just like it's not worth deadly force for me to walk up to you and punch the shit out of you. I wouldn't do that, but if I did, you would no right to ventilate me either.

no officer should ever have to patrol alone. cops should always be in twos the partner system.

Hell, that's common here. The only time there's two in a patrol vehicle is when one's in training. We don't have the manpower to tie up two guys on every call, so they are taught to handle things themselves when they can, or be quick to call for backup.

I hope that you are happy, Tango7.  The use of logic in a GD thread where cop-bashing is in progress is not acceptable.  Now go to the naughty mat until further notice.

Quoted: Criminals are becoming more and more brazen while cops are having there hands tied more and more by PC BS.

+1.  Truer words were, unfortunately, never spoken.

Quoted: Took place in Gary, Indiana. Why does this not surprise me. Criminals are becoming more and more brazen while cops are having there hands tied more and more by PC BS.

Cops do it because they are willing to, when know one else will.   They will go into that dark alley, chase the armed felons and keep the drug dealers from your neighborhoods.    They pick up the dead kids, tend to the crash victims of drunk drivers and watch, everyday, mans inhumanity against their fellow man.    

I wonder, what if some day they call the cops and they don't come...............beat them enough, beat anyone enough, and someday you will have that answer.........

Quoted: It's not worthdeadly force to be close to a cop. Just like it's not worth deadly force for me to walk up to you and punch the shit out of you. I wouldn't do that, but if I did, you would no right to ventilate me either.

You analogy is badly flawed...there is a HUGE difference between throwing a punch at someone and trying to choke them to death...the first does not justify deadly force by itself, but the second certainly does.

Quoted: I hope that you are happy, Tango7.  The use of logic in a GD thread where cop-bashing is in progress is not acceptable.  Now go to the naughty mat until further notice.

I'm sorry........
Not really.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The days of the Norman Rockwell police officer are over.  Think of that famous painting as you look at the SWAT teams which are better outfitted and as well trained as any soldier fighting in Iraq right now. It's for our protection, though. The officers of Rockwells era didn't face some of the issues officers todays face. The SWAT team guys don't work their daily shifts wearing all that gear. Most agencies have part time teams, and the majority of their time is spent in standard LEO uniform.So don't even try to go there. So, you think I'm wrong?

Yes

I'm going to get to the bottom line here. If I encountered a LEO being held down and choked, I would shoot the choker dead. I know this is an open forum, quote me. As for the crowd, if they threatened deadly force, they too would receive the appropriate response. To you cowards and LEO bashers, step aside, I have no use for you. Ray Rinehart, Dallas, Texas.

Quoted: Quoted: Everyday there is thread started by AR15fan that decries the treatment of police officers.  I bet for every story like this, there are a thousand stories about police inefficiency, corruption, mistreatment of non-convicted persons, wrong-address raids, false arrests, brutality, strong-arm tactics, civilian shake-downs just to generate revenue, late night fishing expeditions because some patrolman was bored and a dozen other things cops get away with on a daily basis just becasue they have a badge that DO NOT get reported because no one was there other than the cop and the cop's victim. We live a society steadily creeping toward the draconian one Orwell wrote about in 1984 and the everyday police officer is as much a part of this as the Homeland Security Department.  The days of the Norman Rockwell police officer are over. Funny. The cop in that painting would have clubbed you over the head for just thinking what you just typed.  Things have gotten better, not worse.  Cops are less violent and more accountable for their actions than ever before.

True story. in the 60s and 70s the cops were often totally out of hand. FWIW, many of the so-called 'Peace riots' were in fact 'Police riots' that were started by the cops trying to clear out a fairly peaceful crowd with axe handles.

By and large, the AVERAGE police officer today is FAR more professional than his predecessor was in the late 60s and 70s. If today's cops pulled even HALF the shit they used to get away with, there would be screaming heard from here to Kalamazoo.

It ain't perfect, but it's a lot better.

Quoted: Everyday there is thread started by AR15fan that decries the treatment of police officers.  I bet for every story like this, there are a thousand stories about police inefficiency, corruption, mistreatment of non-convicted persons, wrong-address raids, false arrests, brutality, strong-arm tactics, civilian shake-downs just to generate revenue, late night fishing expeditions because some patrolman was bored and a dozen other things cops get away with on a daily basis just becasue they have a badge that DO NOT get reported because no one was there other than the cop and the cop's victim. We live a society steadily creeping toward the draconian one Orwell wrote about in 1984 and the everyday police officer is as much a part of this as the Homeland Security Department.  The days of the Norman Rockwell police officer are over.  Think of that famous painting as you look at the SWAT teams which are better outfitted and as well trained as any soldier fighting in Iraq right now. It's for our protection, though.

I think you are wrong.  I bet the average police officer takes a lot more shit than he ever gives.  I am not one to defend all cops.  I despise those that are corrupt or want to trample the Constitution.  However I believe the vast majority of cops are good people who want to make a difference.

I'm not a cop, but I know I couldn't do it.  Think about it: the pay isn't great; you're always on duty; you're a highly visible target for all the thugs and criminals; you have to know and follow a huge list of rules that your adversary doesn't; you have to exercise extraordinary restraint with suspects after they have just killed your best friend, kicked you in the balls, spat on you, etc.; you have to do everything exactly right in apprehending thugs and murderers or face having them let off on a technicality.  Personally, I don't know how most of these men and women do the job as well as they do.  

It's easy to point to a few highly publicised cases of corruption and trampling of people's rights and then throw all cops under the bus.  But think of all the cases that aren't publicised: all the cops that didn't gun down the suspect that just killed their partner; the cops that didn't retaliate after they'd been spat on; all the cops that while off duty came to the aid of someone in need.  I think this happens a lot more than you think.  And that is why so many of us have so much reverance and appreciation for the police.

During the "Norman Rockwell" era of American law enforcement, Police were far less professional, often very poorly trained, and had little restraint imposed by the courts. It was not until the 1950s and 1960s that the Bill of Rights even APPLIED to state and local law enforcement. Police routinely searched homes without warrants until a 1950s case (I think from Kansas City, on a Pornography raid, of all things) that went before the USSC. Until the USSC finally decided that the 14th Amendment should be enforced, and that it applied all of the other Amendments to local governments as well, you had no civil rights when dealing with LE unless you were dealing with Federal Agents (and try calling J. Edgar Hoover's boys JBTs). Police routinely coerced confessions from suspects, beat prisoners, made warrantless searches and arrests not supported by constitutional law, and local court systems denied persons arrested and charged with crimes all sorts of basic protections (like right to counsel, confront witnesses, jury trials and such) that are taken as a given these days.

Corruption was endemic in American Police agencies. The lack of training and equipment also meant that even though the crime rate was much lower than we have today, and the population was much less, there were, on average, about twice as many officers killed in the line of duty during any given year than we have these days. While there wer many brave, selfless and honorable Police Officers serving during the 1950s and earlier, the overall picture of American Law Enforcement from the "good old days" was not a very pretty one. Anyone who has ever taken a History of Criminal Justice course in college or studied for a promtotional exam at a police agency knows this. Despite the strong feeling that some folks seem to irrationally cling to that the average American Peace Officer is some sort of tool of a "police state, " particularly when compared to the LE agents of the past, nothing could be further from the truth.

Quoted: Took place in Gary, Indiana. Why does this not surprise me. Criminals are becoming more and more brazen while cops are having there hands tied more and more by PC BS.

If the "law" would stop prosecuting people for defending themselves, it would be different.

Basically laws are written so that cops can basically arrest you for any made up thing

Seems to me that encouraging a scumbag to kill a cop is not "any made up thing". Although I agree with you for the most part, just not in this case.

I'm not suprised, especially in Gary

Quoted: During the "Norman Rockwell" era of American law enforcement, Police were far less professional, often very poorly trained, and had little restraint imposed by the courts. It was not until the 1950s and 1960s that the Bill of Rights even APPLIED to state and local law enforcement. Police routinely searched homes without warrants until a 1950s case (I think from Kansas City, on a Pornography raid, of all things) that went before the USSC. Until the USSC finally decided that the 14th Amendment should be enforced, and that it applied all of the other Amendments to local governments as well, you had no civil rights when dealing with LE unless you were dealing with Federal Agents (and try calling J. Edgar Hoover's boys JBTs). Police routinely coerced confessions from suspects, beat prisoners, made warrantless searches and arrests not supported by constitutional law, and local court systems denied persons arrested and charged with crimes all sorts of basic protections (like right to counsel, confront witnesses, jury trials and such) that are taken as a given these days. Corruption was endemic in American Police agencies. The lack of training and equipment also meant that even though the crime rate was much lower than we have today, and the population was much less, there were, on average, about twice as many officers killed in the line of duty during any given year than we have these days. While there wer many brave, selfless and honorable Police Officers serving during the 1950s and earlier, the overall picture of American Law Enforcement from the "good old days" was not a very pretty one. Anyone who has ever taken a History of Criminal Justice course in college or studied for a promtotional exam at a police agency knows this. Despite the strong feeling that some folks seem to irrationally cling to that the average American Peace Officer is some sort of tool of a "police state, " particularly when compared to the LE agents of the past, nothing could be further from the truth.

Too bad thats too large for a sig line. You should run that one for awhile to remind people they don't have a leg to stand on when they start comparing now to then.

And the declining murder rate?  Largely due to MUCH improved medical technology.  I read in a leo publication w/in the last year that the murder rate of both police officers and general population would be higher than it was in the 60s or 70s if we had medical technology of those eras.  The quick response and better more advanced techniques are responsibile.  Actual assaults are occurring at higher rates and would have resulted in more death without todays medicine.

Im looking for this article now and its supporting cited works so I'm not just spouting off, but have some evidence of my statement!

Quoted: During the "Norman Rockwell" era of American law enforcement, Police were far less professional, often very poorly trained, and had little restraint imposed by the courts. It was not until the 1950s and 1960s that the Bill of Rights even APPLIED to state and local law enforcement. Police routinely searched homes without warrants until a 1950s case (I think from Kansas City, on a Pornography raid, of all things) that went before the USSC. Until the USSC finally decided that the 14th Amendment should be enforced, and that it applied all of the other Amendments to local governments as well, you had no civil rights when dealing with LE unless you were dealing with Federal Agents (and try calling J. Edgar Hoover's boys JBTs). Police routinely coerced confessions from suspects, beat prisoners, made warrantless searches and arrests not supported by constitutional law, and local court systems denied persons arrested and charged with crimes all sorts of basic protections (like right to counsel, confront witnesses, jury trials and such) that are taken as a given these days. Corruption was endemic in American Police agencies. The lack of training and equipment also meant that even though the crime rate was much lower than we have today, and the population was much less, there were, on average, about twice as many officers killed in the line of duty during any given year than we have these days. While there wer many brave, selfless and honorable Police Officers serving during the 1950s and earlier, the overall picture of American Law Enforcement from the "good old days" was not a very pretty one. Anyone who has ever taken a History of Criminal Justice course in college or studied for a promtotional exam at a police agency knows this. Despite the strong feeling that some folks seem to irrationally cling to that the average American Peace Officer is some sort of tool of a "police state, " particularly when compared to the LE agents of the past, nothing could be further from the truth.

Mapp vs Ohio

I agree with everything that you posted.

Quoted: Quoted: All depends on the neighborhood. I was at a retirement party a few years ago for a local police officer and got talking to state trooper who had been transferred from a more urban area downstate to take command of, I think, one of the local substations up here in the sticks. He said he ran across a drunk early one evening and after he pulled him over, the guy got out of his car and was sort of scuffling around with him. He said he wasn't worried until a pickup truck screeched to a halt behind his patrol car and five guys jumped out of the bed and cab of the truck and started running towards him, he knocked the drunk down and either drew his pistol or put his hand on it (I don't remember specifically) and yelled for them to stop. They all skidded to a stop and looked kind of shocked, after a few seconds one of them pointed at the drunk on the ground and said, sounding offended, "We were going to kick the shit out of that asshole."

When I need backup, I'll take it from whoever I can get it from!  good story!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All depends on the neighborhood. I was at a retirement party a few years ago for a local police officer and got talking to state trooper who had been transferred from a more urban area downstate to take command of, I think, one of the local substations up here in the sticks. He said he ran across a drunk early one evening and after he pulled him over, the guy got out of his car and was sort of scuffling around with him. He said he wasn't worried until a pickup truck screeched to a halt behind his patrol car and five guys jumped out of the bed and cab of the truck and started running towards him, he knocked the drunk down and either drew his pistol or put his hand on it (I don't remember specifically) and yelled for them to stop. They all skidded to a stop and looked kind of shocked, after a few seconds one of them pointed at the drunk on the ground and said, sounding offended, "We were going to kick the shit out of that asshole." When I need backup, I'll take it from whoever I can get it from!  good story!

I seem remember seeing the video from a dash camera where a female Trooper was getting the snot pummeled out of her by some huge "Bluto" 'brotha...a truck driver (who had seen the scuffle & pulled in behind the patrol car) comes into view with a big ass Mag-Lite & gives him a good t*nking to.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Cochran, a five-year veteran and member of the department's SWAT team, said Banks choked him and told him: ''I could kill you right now if I wanted to!'' Cochran was speaking to a woman and Banks, who appeared to be joking and ''engaging in horseplay'' when the woman ran behind Cochran and asked him to protect her. Cochran reported he put his hand out to stop Banks from continuing toward the woman when Banks tackled Cochran's legs and the fight began. The real insult will come when Banks is found not guilty of all charges.  That's what happens when you get a brainless jury pool to hear the case. That's what happens when people avoid jury duty. You get what's left, and those that aren't small enough to get out of jury duty. That is one thing that I am itching to do is be on a jury.  The only time that I was called was when I was in college and was unable to travel the 180 miles back home.

I KNOW!!! Since I turned 18 I've been dying to be selected for Jury duty, I'd even go as far as volunteer for it, but since I can't I must wait.

Quoted: hmmm....maybe the po po should just avoid responding to calls in this neighborhood for a couple of weeks.  A sort of "fu** you"  to show how they feel...a geographical sick out, sort of.

Took an oath to serve and protect.  
No matter: race, creed, color, or sexual orientation.  You will receive the same level of service from me.

I've had to help people who were really not nice people.  I didn't get a thank you.   Really didn't expect one either.  Normal civilized people know right from wrong.

Quoted: I KNOW!!! Since I turned 18 I've been dying to be selected for Jury duty, I'd even go as far as volunteer for it, but since I can't I must wait.

+1

I'm almost 40, and lived in the same county in Virginia for over 30 years, and NEVER got called for jury duty...and I actually WANT to do jury duty some day...maybe I'll have better luck in Florida...

Quoted: Police Say Crowd Cheered as Gary, Indiana Officer was Attacked ASSOCIATED PRESS GARY, Ind. (AP) -- Authorities say about 10 people urged a man on as he attacked a city police officer who had responded to a domestic dispute call. Patrolman Carl Cochran was investigating the call Wednesday night when he was attacked unprovoked by Kelvin D. Banks, Lt. Roger Smith said. Both men were on the ground and a group of residents were crowded around urging Banks to keep up the attack, Smith said. Cochran, a five-year veteran and member of the department's SWAT team, said Banks choked him and told him: ''I could kill you right now if I wanted to!'' Eventually, Patrolman Richard Knight arrived and saw his partner struggling with Banks. The two officers were able to subdue Banks. Banks was charged Thursday in Lake Superior Court with counts of battery, resisting law enforcement, intimidation and disorderly conduct, said Diane Poulton, spokeswoman for the county prosecutor's office. Cochran was speaking to a woman and Banks, who appeared to be joking and ''engaging in horseplay'' when the woman ran behind Cochran and asked him to protect her. Cochran reported he put his hand out to stop Banks from continuing toward the woman when Banks tackled Cochran's legs and the fight began. Police Cmdr. Jerome Krebes said Thursday he ordered additional patrols in the neighborhood because of the crowd's response to the incident.

Hell Ya!

Quoted: I'm going to get to the bottom line here. If I encountered a LEO being held down and choked, I would shoot the choker dead. I know this is an open forum, quote me. As for the crowd, if they threatened deadly force, they too would receive the appropriate response. To you cowards and LEO bashers, step aside, I have no use for you. Ray Rinehart, Dallas, Texas.

It's funny how many people swallow brainwashing, but,
be careful Ray. Pull a gun out around a cop and you may just get the dirt nap yourself.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All depends on the neighborhood. I was at a retirement party a few years ago for a local police officer and got talking to state trooper who had been transferred from a more urban area downstate to take command of, I think, one of the local substations up here in the sticks. He said he ran across a drunk early one evening and after he pulled him over, the guy got out of his car and was sort of scuffling around with him. He said he wasn't worried until a pickup truck screeched to a halt behind his patrol car and five guys jumped out of the bed and cab of the truck and started running towards him, he knocked the drunk down and either drew his pistol or put his hand on it (I don't remember specifically) and yelled for them to stop. They all skidded to a stop and looked kind of shocked, after a few seconds one of them pointed at the drunk on the ground and said, sounding offended, "We were going to kick the shit out of that asshole." When I need backup, I'll take it from whoever I can get it from!  good story!

This is a personal account....

On vacation in England with parents.  I was about  13 yrs or so.  We were in the town of Caernarfonwww.caernarfon.com/ walking thru town early evening.  My father was a PO in the middle of his career (read still in good shape!).  There was a bobby talking with a guy outside a pub and the guy starts yelling at the bobby/officer.  Next thing you know its go time and the bobby is getting thrown around pretty well by this larger drunk guy.  My father shoos my mother , me and my brother off to the side of the street and runs across and joins the fight taking this drunk to the ground helping the bobby hook up the drunk for their version of DP.  As they get the cuffs on the drunk up runs another 2 or 3 bobbys who were more than a bit surprised by my father and his actions.  After several thanks and hand shakes they said they don't often get assistance from concerned citizens.

Left a MAJOR impression on me.  No surprise both my brother and I are leos.  Once an LEO ALWAYS an LEO and no matter where you go, your a cop.

Quoted: Why would a cop be sent into the "hood" without backup?

Happened to me several time on patrol. It's part of the job.

Quoted: Quoted: Why would a cop be sent into the "hood" without backup? Happened to me several time on patrol. It's part of the job.

The other officers could have been busy on other calls? 2 were sent, but one got there a few seconds before the other?

Just because 2 or more get sent doesn't mean they time their arrival to precisely coincide. It could also be that 2 were sent, to a reported fight IN an apartment, and planned meet in the parking lot before going up. Unfortunately the first officer to get there found the fight in the parking lot.

MikeTX, to whom are you referring to as brainwashed? If a LEO is being choked to death, can't get to a weapon, with no back-up in sight, I will do the right thing. As for the risk of taking a dirt nap, you do what you have to do. I would personally rather take the nap than live my life in fear of it. Ray

MikeTX, I would appreciate an answer. Ray

and yet these guys are willing to lay it on the line when it counts if your family would require their assistance........

I'll disagree with this one.

I think the reality is that they'll what they have to do "to go home home safe at the end of their shift."

Mind you, I'm not necessairly disagreeing with their position, but let's be realistic about how much "assistance" they would give me and or my family.

We also all know that LIABILITY for the police department will greatly restrain them when it comes to rushing in to "assist" you and yours.

Remember the police at Columbine folks?  They waited hours before going in because of the LIABILITY that they MIGHT shoot one on the kids.....

This is not a cop-bashing post at all - just a reality reminder....

CMOS

Gary, IN is a shithole! It doesn't surprise me that something like this would happen there, it's probably more of the "norm" than an isolated incident.

A lot of good conversation going on here.

I know it sounds juvenile and knee-jerky-reactionary, but..

the follow up to situations like this should be:

pull everyone out and nuke the neigbhorhood, or at least call in airstrikes or arty support.

We just can't win the 'hearts and minds' of some people and I'm tired of seeing good people being victimized or killed by bad and our society going farther downhill because we're afraid to deal with the fact that there are bad people, and clumps of bad people.

Sounds like they need to put the word out that cops will not be responding to domestic dispute calls in that neighborhood anymore.  In fact, throw up a cage around it to contain the animals.

Quoted: pull everyone out and nuke the neigbhorhood, or at least call in airstrikes or arty support. We just can't win the 'hearts and minds' of some people and I'm tired of seeing good people being victimized or killed by bad and our society going farther downhill because we're afraid to deal with the fact that there are bad people, and clumps of bad people.

1 % of the population will always ruin it for the remaining 99 %.

Wasn't it just the other day there was a thread about the 20th anniversary of the MOVE incident and everyone was saying "how could they throw  a BOMB??" and here people  are saying "they should BOMB, dammit!". You all should be making up your mind on this! Bomb or not to bomb?

Quoted: All depends on the neighborhood.

Exactly.   Gary = Shit hole