I can field this one.

Bruce Lee had NO fighting record because he felt "sport fighting" was a farce and detremental to fighting skill.

But he did engage in several well known fights. There were many in Hong Kong who sought to make a name for themselves by taking out the "top dog." As a result during his time their he fought several "challenges" with both legitimate martial artists who thought he was prostituting the "arts" for personal financial gain and guys who just believed they were the baddest kid on the block and wanted to prove it.

SteyrAug raises a point I am seeing missed here.

There is a difference between sport fighting and combat fighting.

Others can expound on this, but aren't many of the martial arts, eg Tae Kwon Do for one, developed from harder combat arts, for the purpose of creating a sport?

Boxing is sport, street fighting is combat. Tyson was/is a street fighter turned boxer.
Bruce Lee, by all reports, started as a street fighter. He spent much off-camera time during the filming of his last movie facing challenges from the extras.

As who would win? You can't think of it as a 100% guarantee of one being victorious over the other. Thats the wrong way to think about it. Its more likely be that Tyson has a 10% advantage over Segal/Lee/whomever, or the other way around. So in 20 fights, Tyson wins 11, the MA fighter wins 9.

This is correct. A vast majority of the martial arts have degenerated into sport or just social activity.

As a result many "uber" black belts are easily defeated by anyone who has ever hit a punching bag.

The current state of modern martial arts is abysmal. The only good thing about it is actual training and techniques are now again underground and largely unknown to the public, and this gives authentic martial artists a significant advantage.

This is getting silly.

Let me first end any hostilities.  I have no rancor toward anyone who thinks differently from me.  So Tylerdurden, if somehow I have offended - sorry.  Sincerely.

Now on Bruce Lee, I happen to be an admirer of his.  He lived life on his own grounds and took shit from no one.  He was a talented athlete, and probably an excellent fighter.  When I was young and training in martial arts I read his work.  

And while my comments might have appeared rude to some, I do stand by the concepts therein.  I do not believe Bruce Lee was one of the hardest hitting men alive.  My reasoning is simple.  At around 135 pounds, it doesn't compute.  Yes, technique helps, but, large men with good technique will hit harder than small men with good technique.  There is a difference.  But, if someone posts where the comment came from and the source has credibility I'll give it credit.

The other issue is the comment that he was a fighter first and foremost.  When history looks at Bruce Lee it sees an actor first.  This is where he made a worldwide impact.  No one outside of Hong Kong knew who Lee was when he was fighting, or winning dance contests.  But, when he made movies he became a household name.  Having never set foot in a ring with enough ranked fighters there is no way he can be considered a fighter first.  In his heart he may have considered himself a warrior first, but that is not what history will recall.

And while I admire Bruce Lee, and have nothing but disgust for Tyson, in the end, I believe in my heart that unless Lee could use some technique to damage Tysons legs before he got hit, it would be a bad day for Lee.  I don't think enough credit is given to Tyson for the prodigeous talents he possesses when it comes to injuring his fellow man with his hands.  He is a lot quicker than some of you must think, and revels in combat.  He is truly a force in hand to hand combat.

Peace to all.

James

JIMMYBCOOL you want to talk about records but that would be foolish.

Do you know who Gen. Ferbin or John Kerry are?
Two of the best fighters in the world they would have life and death fights ever day some times and there was no one there to keep score.
If you did not die you win!

I really don't like to say stuff like this but a 220 or 225lbs guy in a fight is so slow it down right easy to put them on there ass.
Boxers can take a hit in the face but what do you think a boxer would do if I made his knee go the other way? you can put up your dukes all day.

I have put down some guys that have been boxing for years and not with any Ju-do crap, standing up! Boxing is a game.
Mike can do just one thing,hit you in the face.
It will only work if don't move your face.

You need to comic books and get in to a good school then will work with you on your lil. one punch fighting hang up.

I remember having similiar conversations with my friends back in Korea. Of course, it did not involve Mike Tyson. I was taught that THE POWER comes from SPEED. Lee would've been too fast for Tyson. Joe

Allow me to sum up/ simplify:


If a martial artist that has put in the same amount of training, time and overall work that Tyson has, as well as developed the killer instinct to do just that-kill- he will win. The run of the mill martial arts hobbiest needs to make out a will and see his priest before attempting such an idea.

My observations are Seagal and Van Damme are not as good as their movies. Seagal claimed to be CIA, he sat a desk in MIami doing questionaires. He admitted thaton TV. Norris is a an excellent fighter, he is trained in a multiple arts, Judo and also Jujitu, with the Muchados, who are cousins of the Gracies. Seagal was smart mouthing  Norris at a party. Norris walked away as he is a gentleman. As Seagal was still cocky, Gene LeBell put him to sleep, as LeBell is one of the best. Judo Pan American Champ and pro wrestler int he 50s and 60s.
As for the Gracies, they are good. But they concentrate on the matwork, it is standard judo. I trained one of their students after them, he had no ability to bridge distances, or fight standing up.
Anything new works in the beginning. When  Norris first used the spin kick it was all that, then everyone started using it.
There are many people out there that would kick Tyson or anyones ass, theere is always someone better than you.
I was at a seminar and was working out with a guy, real nice guy, when of the others there told me later, 'He likes you, He doesn't spend that much time over here, he only competes in the orient. He was the fighter that the VAn Damme movies were about.' No talk no bull just quiet and lots of sweat.

Like I said, I have seen some pics of some SEALS and SPETZNAZ soldiers and they were some big MFers, sure they aren't all huge but they are trained to kill, they are smart, and they show no mercy. I'd like to see one go hand to hand with tyson.

Lets face it, we've all heard tyson speak (words of more than 3 syllables are a challenge). It's well know he's as dumb as dirt unless the subject is boxing or raping women. He cant think outside of the box. I think tyson would go into the fight with winning on his mind, a elite soldier will go in with killing on his (at least if he's trained right.)

My .02
BrenLover

M16Man, again I can see that you get it.

Like I have said over and over Tysons is only good at one thing, his "people"(you know the guy with the big ass do)know this.
Don't you think that the greedy SOBs that run Mikes life would put him in the ring with a MA if they knew he would win?
You can't tell me people would not pay to see that!

In Jan the sumo guys are in some cases 600lbs they have a hell of a lot of power to.
If he put his all in to it I bet one of them could punch hole in a brick wall, they may brake there hand but if you had 600lbs to put in to it you can't brake any thing.
Some of the sumos are as tall as 6'6" so being 6'6" and 600lbs one of them by your thinking could bet Mike Tysons ass....right?

Even Mike is not that dumb.

Another thing to consider, truly tough men (SEALS, SPETZNAZ) train to the brink of complete physical failure and still can perform their mission and smoke your a$$. tyson has never had to fight to the point of exaustion and he would, I believe, be in serious trouble once he got tired.

The fighting techniques the US and Soviet elite learn are a blend of many differnat disciplines designed to do nothing but kill, none of this "self defense" crap. I believe this is the only way to go. Train hard in MULTIPLE areas, these guys are fortunate in that their whole job centers around how to take people out, and they can give their training 110% without worring about trivial things like "gee, when am I gonna have time to go to the gym?" or "damn, gotta make a business trip, no range time this weekend".

BrenLover

Tyson against almost anybody in a structured environment (rules, boundaries, etc.) would be very hard to beat. Don't think Tyson doesn't know how to fight otherwise. Tyson tried to break Holyfield's arm in a hold on one of their fights. I've seen Tyson use his shoulder in close as an uppercut shot to his opponent's jaw.
Tyson can fight dirty also. He trains with elbows in addition to his fist. The fist is an extension of the elbow. I'm sure to use his elbow, knee, or foot on someone is not unfamiliar to him. He is no martial arts, but a kick from a 225 lb man still hurts. He has used his teeth before, so I'm sure he will use whatever to win if allowed.

If Tyson's leg is not broken (knee shot), on the ground grappling (lock or choke hold), or stike to vital or painful area (groin, throat, eyes) you can almost forget it.

The thing with grappling Tyson is that you have to get inside and on the ground. We all know inside fighting is what Tyson loves and excels at.

The thing about using legs is that your kicks better hurt badly or break something, because once he gets inside, your kicks are no longer effective and you are limited to knees, elbows, fist to vital and painful targets. Once again you are in a world that Tyson is familiar with. Not to many trained fighters can take to many hit to the head from Tyson, so I doubt the untrained person will last longer.

The best way to bet Tyson is at a distance and pick him apart (skill, strength, speed, and room needed), or be as big, brutal, and bad as he is on close fighting.

I'm here to tell you people won't pay to see that.  It has been tried in the past and the fights are boring.

Do you recall when there was a fight between (forget, ALI, or Foreman, or ???) and a MA.  The MA immidiately fell to the mat and proceeded to make the whole thing meaningless.  The boxer isn't going to close on him and get his legs kicked.  No, not that he would be too slow to prevent serious damage, but pain still counts and he can't hit the MA on his back.  There was no contest.  It was a joke.  Why?  because the MA knew in a ring, with gloves, he was meat.

You can believe what you want.  With rules, without rules, it doesn't matter.  And the whole point is that at 220 lbs, Tyson is QUICK.  Not some slow plodder you imagine in your mind.  Not all big men are SLOW.

If you enforce rules with gloves as  a requirement and staying vertical, Tyson wins over most any MA.  You can even let them kick if they want (not knees).  Force them to make all  strikes above the belt and I'll bet the ranch on Tyson against any MA that gets in the ring with him.

If you take away ALL rules (can't sanction that anyway) then you might have a contest.  Only if the MA is worldclass, tough, strong, and able to take and give punishment.

No one has said Tyson can't be beat.  But, as a small man, Lee would be a long shot despite being marginally quicker than Tyson (yes, marginally - Tyson is world class quick).

You can voice any opinion you like, but your missing points such as Tyson is not slow.  Tyson is able to FIGHT, not just box.  And you refuse to understand the difference between a good large man against a good small man.  The large guy won't always win, but that's the smart way to bet.

James

Martial arts versus boxers...

Sort of a misnomer, boxing is a martial art.  It usually lacks throws, kicks, locks, and breaks.  But, the heavy weights develop simple techniques and a strong body as well as timing, distance, and footwork.  All of these elements are present in most martial arts.  The techniques and training methods of a martial art are much more powerful.  

The bottom line is the person.  How hard do they train and what is their training like.  Also, in the contest, how much of the martial artist's training can they use?  If a majority of their training revolves around lethal techniques then they will be at a disadvantage when they "spar".

I once had a full contact sparring session (that went too far) with a guy that was like Tyson (big, strong, mean, professionally trained boxer type). I had seen this guy work out on the heavy bag and I knew I didn't want to be punched by him but I also observed that his kicks were weak and akward. I basically chopped this guy down like a tree. I stayed away and focused on attacking his legs (ankles, knees, thighs) and after a few minutes this guy could barely stand, much less dance & weave. After that it was just a matter of more leg attack from a distance until all he cared about was protecting his legs (which were a huge source of pain by that point) and then I finished him off with a fake leg kick that I took to the head instead and followed that up with a couple more kicks to the head and an axe kick to  the back of his neck while he was on his way down. Now this guy was not as skilled as Tyson obviously and I'm no Bruce Lee, but it my use of proper tactics and knowing my enemy's weaknesses that won the fight, as it usually does. If I had stood toe to toe with this guy, he would have crushed my face in, but I knew that and did not give him the chance to do so. A GREAT martial artist would do the same with Tyson.


Edited to say that I said this sparring seesion went too far because I wouldn't normally abuse someone like this in a sparring session, it's just this guy had a bad-ass attitude and I admit that I was scared of him.

Sometimes it does no good being nice.  First, talking about records is not foolish.  The conversation must have gone over your head.

Do you understand context?  When someone says Lee is a fighter first, and actor second, I say show the proof.  I can show the movies.  I can do polls and prove that to the world, he is an actor first.  Simple.  Remember context.  THAT is why I asked for his record.  To make a point, that you missed.

And goodie for you, you put down some boxers.  Get in a ring with Tyson, and you are meat.  You can move your face all you want.  You truly are ignorant about professional level boxing.  No, don't do it.  Despite how pissed off I am right now at how rude you are, I don't want to see you die.

As to your last paragraph above, there is nothing resembling sentence structure or meaning in it.  It sounds a bit insulting, but since it doesn't actually mean anything I can not respond.

Frankly, a2car, you are coming across as a butthole.  We disagree on the subject.  And that is OK.  You seem to think being insulting will make you prevail in this "important" disagreement.  Wrong. It just makes you a butthole.  

Get a grip.  You might just be wrong.  Trust me, it won't be the last time in your life.

James

Actually, a lot of the SEALs I've met are little guys. Apparently it helps them get in and out of boats and run all day.

They're not unbeatable at everything. Used to ride bikes with one every now and then, which is mostly a measure of aerobic fitness. I could fairly consistently thump him, and I was short of racing condition. Of course he was doing triathelte stuff, and would have thumped me in the run or the swim. And that's not a measure of who would keep on going when hypothermic and sleep deprived.

Yeah, they're fit. But not ten feet tall, in reality or metaphorically.

Does everyone think Tyson will just stand there while all these leg sweeps and other fancy moves are being performed? This guy is big, fast, brutal and has shown in the past he will do what it takes to win. I wouldnt get in the ring with my .45 with that dude. You can talk all day about grappling and insteps and knees and whatever, but your guy is still gonna have to take three or four shots somewhere, I guarantee. And three or four shots from a professional brawler will put a hurtin on anybody.

James is quite correct. Move your head all you want and Tyson will just work your body until it slows your head down, you can't move quick, or collaspe from the body blows. You guys don't realize how quick and powerful Tyson is at 225 lbs. of solid muscle trained to inflict pain on humans, quickly.

Hellraiser has a point which goes with what I said before, work at a distance. Work on Tyson legs until he can't take the punishment. If you work his legs they better be good hard shots and stay away from him.

I can't think of anyone who can hurt Mike Tyson anymore than he hurts himself...

I'd vote for the Shamrocks, Mark Kerr, Marcos Ruas and others with an eclectic style of fighting.  The Gracie clan is good that is for sure......and nothing to write off. my$.02  

I have a new challenge!  Tyson vs. a ss109. No one normal (non-martial artist type, most of us) would have a chance against Iron Mike.  But I dont think any of us would face an animal like this without a weapon.  

Can the modern movie dorks kicks Tyson's ass?

NOPE! Tyson trains for fights day in and out. He most likely takes hits every day to become tougher.  Tyson is a raging bull who is blood thirsty..he thinks of only one thing..WIN FIGHT;

The movie guys are more interested in acting, etc.


Can the REAL martial arts masters from the orient kick Tyson's ass?

Yes!!!!!!!  They do things like ripping bark off of trees, sticking thier hands in flames, hitting steel, etc, as everyday training. I would not doubt that some of the things that these masters could do would amaze us. They train at high level that surpasses Tyson's; in their case, their actions are not thought, they are automatic, and deadly.
One of these masters would not win for free however.I would imagine that the serious injuries taken would almost be as bad as a loss, if not worse, due the crippling effects of Tyson's sledgehammer blows.
I would also think that there is still a chance the eastern master might lose..Tyson would not go down easy, and fight until he drops over dead.

This is similar to the Knight in full western arms VS. the highly skilled Samuari. Assuming they are both masters of their craft...flip a coin!

I never said they (SEALS and such) were all huge, just some I have seen. I didn't inplie they were all supermen either.

BrenLover