Eh, I don't mind.  All liars shall have their part of the lake of fire... and I hear real estate is a good investment these days.

I dunno what YOU'RE reading, but Ford is NOT asking for $$$ and is doing "well," considering.

+1...sort of.

I kind of laughed at this because I knew class warfare was about to come to us all in epic proportions.  It's actually a great fucking plan...now if only Barry would stop pissing off his base, the demoshit will hold power for all eternity.  Especially since they will get the ignorant among us to vote for them because of this shit.

No, you don't....and yes, they are.

We have more and more of a socialist free market economy...meaning the government exerts control over our economic direction.

I think there is nothing wrong with the same expectations for someone using a shovel to an AIG executive - earn your wages.
Paying some jerk a bonus that is largely responsible for helping a company fall apart is ridiculous. And then paying them from public coffers is outrageous.
This country isn't about double standards.
And there damn sure is if an AIG executive gets a huge financial bonus for being a major F-up while a WalMart employee is worked 35 hours a week at a low wage and can't even get health care because he is considered part time.
And since when does contract law come into effect when someone in a company writes a binding contract with that company where he profits greatly at the expense of that company?
That is both legal and moral bull sh*t.

ETA - There is a class of people at the Board of Directors' level in most companies at Wall Street that are experts at raiding company coffers for their benefits.
I've seen corporate executives list pension fund returns as company profit on which their performance bonus was determined. The company actually lost money while the pension funds gained. Listing them took the company out of the red and the BoD and company executives all got bonuses based on that.
They had nothing to do with the pension funds and had never added a dime to them, nor managed them, but profited a the expense of the company by an accounting trick.
AIG executives getting bonuses for running the company into the ground should be criminal. The word bonus denotes superior performance.
Steering a large ship onto a reef where it will sink is not superior performance by any stretch of the imagination.

DF...remember...Democrats were also "surprised" about the economic meltdown and attributed it "poor management of the Bush Administration."
Because THEY had NOTHING whatsoever to DO with it.
Especially not Barney Frank.
Just so you know.

seems alot of you guys are into breaking contracts if companies were bailed out by government..If thats the case, I say fuck those UAW contracts!!!!! And the schools are out of money also.....The govt bails them out constantly...Fuck those teacher contracts too..(my wife is a teacher-just an example)The list can go on and on....Whats the difference..The difference is the dollar amounts...Dont be so jealous of what others make...Some say if those companies went out of business, they wouldnt have got paid those bonuses, maybe not..BUT THEY DIDNT GO OUT OF BUSINESS....Govt stepped in...Pay the money...Live and learn...Liberals need not reply I hear enough of your shit on a daily basis..This is AMERICA JACK!!!!! I dont drink the kool aid...oh and Fuck Obama!!!!! And everyone that voted for him!!!!!!!!!!

It seems to me that the Government ala Obama, has succeeded in contributing to a further divide of the American people, what a uniter he turned out to be.  This was nothing but a calculated political move to  create more hate on successful, high-end achievers and to justify government involvement in the dictation of deciding what is the maximum someone can earn.

Starting with Bear Sterns, none of these bailout should have happened.  In reading the executive's letter,  you really get a sense of duty, you can feel the passion and rewards that he gets from his job.  This guy is analogous to a Daggy Taggert, a person who still believes in hope.

These people who were due bonuses are themselves victims, though not entirely innocent.  I have given this deep consideration and thought, about what is indeed correct.  They were victims in that they were lured by government, that everything will be ok, just work hard and do your job; if you succeed then this company will be resold and out of government hands.  However, people who know and study the evils of government, know that this will never happen.  Government screws up nearly everything it touches, and the rare times government actually does something good, it almost always involves turning something over to the private sector.  Aslo a voting populous who favored Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama over any Republican is not a populous sympathetic to the blights of the high end achiever.  Then again, the guy busting his balls 12-14 hours a day probably doesn't have time to immerse himself in political or ideological thought.

This is why reading and understanding Atlas Shrugged is so important.  Government running and taking over private entities is wrong.  According to Randsian thought, if you willingly stay on board you are not only enabling the looters, but you also give legitimacy.  Continued cooperation only creates the desire of more government takeovers. Keep in mind, for our best interest, we really don't want these companies to make it. If they do make it, that will precipitate more government take overs.

I believe most of us who have read Atlas would have cleaned out our desks once the news hit that AIG would  be owned and controlled by the government.  The inevitable will happen, not quitting and  cooperating only puts of for to tomorrow what should have happened today.  Though this is hard for some people to grasp, those who have done nothing but worked, worked, and worked, the idea of quitting is foreign, Ayn Rand illustrated that conundrum perfectly.

Let us hope that these series of usurpations stands as a reminder to any productive mind who may be wrestling with the idea of either going along with the government, or finding another use for his mind and body.

Sorry, I guess I got a little off topic.

I was actually meaning to post it in this thread:http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=850630

I hope we have not sunk to basing our economy on the frivolous whims of the rich and elite.  Is capitalism the economic system whereby the lowly 98% cater to the whims of the top 2%?  Has it always been this way?

Wouldn't Objectivism be more correct?

Again, where is the capitalism?

These banks can:

A. Be a private entity.

OR

B. Wrap their lips around Obama's man meat and help destroy the country.


They cannot be A & B at the same time.

When they became "B" and joined in the Great Swindle, they became the enemy of our country along with Obama.


They're not Obama's enemies, they are his PARTNERS.

And you guys think this is "lovely capitalism"?   What a tribute to the power of denial.

NO!  You act as if "trickle down" actually works.  (instructions to reader: read with HEAVY sarcasm)

Sure, but people who haven't read Ayn Rand's works wouldn't know what Objectivism is, but people who have heard of her would recognize the term "Randsian".  At least that's my thought anyway.

Wake up.

These companies are not romantic Ayn Rand heroes.  These companies ARE the Looters.

They don't give a flying fuck about this country.

This little tiff between the banks and Obama is just a stage show.

No matter what they say, the billions are still changing hands, the country is still being destroyed.

I wonder what Ayn Rand would think of the bank bailout.

She'd see it as a swindle and some of you guys would call her a commie!

She would have been obviously against it, as were most of us who have posted in this thread.  Rand would have also wanted contracts and promises honored.

I'm at the point to let it all come down - AIG, GM, the UAW, etc.
All the gov't is doing is keeping the bubble from collapsing all the way by using smoke.
It's temporary fix, not a permanent one.
What I resent most is that Congress responds mostly to money, not the people that elect them.
If you want to call me a populist because I think the strength of this country are it's citizens, and not the money grubbing pricks on Wall Street or in the gov't, go ahead.
As far as I'm concerned, anyone who thinks he deserves tens of millions of dollars for running a company into the ground is a worthless POS.

Did you read his letter of resignation?

You are so right.
I can't believe so many people swallow that free market bullshit when it's so obvious Obama and so many Congressmen are owned by big companies.

Do you think the prick would have resigned had people not raised hell about the bonuses?

This whole thing would be humerous if it wasn't for the consequences of the situation.  Let's see, the guy is resigning because he doesn't like the way the company is being run.  He didn't get the bonus he was promised for working for $1 (nothing).  In other words he didn't get the salary he promised he wouldn't get.  
Let's look a little deeper.  When the media splash hit that these guys were working for $1 (nothing), who thinks they didn't bask in the praises.  Who thinks they said, "well it really isn't that bad because I'm getting big chunk next March to make up for what I didn't get now"?
He is resigning because he doesn't like the way the company is being run.  Why, as an upstanding, ethical, concerned person didn't resign sometime back when he realized how the company (or a piece large enough to sink it) was being run?  Oh, that was another part of the company he didn't know anything about!  What is absolutely amazing is how these senior company executives ( and elected/appointed  [lib or conser] government folks as well)  know everything about yesterday, today, tomorrow and months into the future when things are going well and didn't know anything or cannot recall when things do not go well.
Get the drift???

It's all about image. He was in an executive position. So he's not responsible for any of the problems but is entitled to the credit when times are good and a big chunk of the gravy no matter what?
So who is going to bear the brunt of the company problems besides the tax payers?

Hank Greenburg bears a huge responsibility for what happened. He bailed out in 2005. Same thing with Anthony Mozilo and Countrywide, bailing out in 2006.
If you think those corporate executives didn't know something was wrong, ignored it to stay on the gravy train, then you may be very naive.
The only thing the corporate executives at AIG did of note prior to the bailout was sue Greenburg to cover their gravy train ride.
It's funny I don't see to many corporate executives owning up to the big mistakes they all profited from.
Imagine that.

I'm a teacher. Even I understand that principle.

I don't make much, but I make enough. It's not bad pay for the gig, actually.

Teacher pay isn't a surprise - we know the salary going into this career field. Teachers who whine about their base pay should probably consider other work. Go be an entrepreneur, start a company of your own, or something.

This "class warfare" is just part of the moral hazard of the bail out.

We should have let those companies fail and the businesses left standing could have bought the good assets left over. In stead we rewarded poor business practices, and now we will continue to get poor business practices.

Personally I have no sympathy for the companies that lobbied for the bail out, received bail out money, and are now bitching because the socialists are micromanaging. It's like picking up a hooker and complaining about getting crabs, it's a package deal. I don't think the caps and what not are right, but you dabble in socialism and you get burned.

I do have sympathy for the businesses who were forced by the fed to take the money, and this did happen. The fed basically said you take the cash or we put your balance sheets out for the world to see. If you have a bunch of bad debt it will be seen and you  will go under, regardless of if you can manage it or not.

We should have never had a bailout from the start, the businesses asking for the bailout are getting what they deserve for embracing socialism, the businesses that were forced to take the bailout are getting fucked in the long run, and the .gov is moronic for attempting the bailout

Why am I in this hand basket and why is it getting so warm?

But that is not the fault of those working at AIG, those receiving the bonuses.

It's the fault of the of those that gave AIG the money.

The death threats are unwarranted and general hatred of the AIG bonusees is unwarranted.

They should never have been given government help in the first place.

And contracts ARE an important part of capitalism.  Without the right of contract, people will be extremely loath to enter into any agreements.  Hell, the right of contract is a fundamental human right.  Without contract, you cannot make decisions for the future.  If the government can abrogate contracts at will, then you're saying the government has a greater right to your life(time) and/or property and thus more say in how they're allocated/spent than you do.

Yes this IS setting a bad precedent.

Capitalism is dead. Deader than a doornail.

We no longer have a free market economy. Those days are over. That is the flaw in your mindset, that you haven't accepted that fact, and that is why you fail to see the injustice in taking public funds and using them to pay bonuses to individuals. You are trying to hold onto something that has died. You are keeping the rotting corpse of the free market economy in your bed and dreaming of the good ol' days.

You see, when the government says to a private commercial entity and says "We cannot allow you to fail" and then starts giving hundreds of billions of dollars to private commercial entities you have moved to a planned economy. Capitalism is over. It died when the government started using public funds to keep private businesses operating. Now that we ARE in a planned economy, it is absolutely essential that we ensure that public funds are not used to enrich certain individuals within the society. This is the most convoluted version of socialism even concocted! Instead of taxing the working to give to the poor we are taxing the working to give to the rich.

The Free Market economy in this country IS absolutely dead, make no mistake about that. We are in a planned economy. The question is will we tax the working into poverty to make the rich richer? How deep are we going to dig the hole that future generations are going to have to try (in vain) to fill in? Our taxes ABSOLUTELY WILL be increased to help pay for the money given to these companies to bail them out. If the government can lessen the tax burden on the people paying for the bailout be recouping the money paid to the execs then they are obligated to do so.

Make no mistake though, capitalism is over. The precedent is set and there will be no going back. It was instituted by a Republican and is being furthered by a Democrat. Our economy is addicted to public money now. The only way to return to a free market is to reclaim ALL of the money paid out immediately and allow the system to collapse and comeback on it's own. That of course would throw the entire global economy into chaos.

But we don't know and they are fighting investigations tooth and nail. These people want this money with no strings and no questions asked. They think that the public needs to hand over hundreds of billions (now up to almost $2,000,000,000,000) and just walk away. Is that what should happen? He just turn over the keys to the treasury, write blank checks to private commercial entities and hope for the best?

People are stupid, they also think they are entitled to YOUR money.



 

I've been saying it for years: If we have any kind of war on our shores it will be a class war.

It's liberalism.

Never mind all this...Zhukov...didya just call me a MASShole?

I only have one word:

Ironic

Hit me with a clue bat and explain yourself.
 

What gives them the right?  They are communists so that gives them the right.  That's the evil nature of communism IMHO.

You're talking about the greed of people who feel like they are entitled to YOUR money, in a thread defending someone who quit his job because he felt he deserved to have his bonus paid from taxpayer funded bailouts.

You're defending someone who felt he had a right to other people's money by criticizing the people whose money was taken from them for wanting as you call it "other people's money".

We aren't talking about criminal trials. We are talking about a glorified audit to determine which parties are responsible for the collapse of businesses which are costing taxpayers nearly $2 Trillion dollars. I am not talking about putting anyone on trial or depriving anyone of their life, liberty or THEIR property. I am talking about the misappropriation of public funds. Since the government now owns 80% of AIG, Congress has every right in the world to ask it's employees how things got so screwed up and who made what mistakes.

The free market is not dead because I will not participate in any other economy.  IF that means moving to the black market economy, so be it.  The free market will exist regardless of anyone's attempts to kill it.

Fuck your planned economy.  I refuse to play.

I didn't graduate from an Ivy League school with a Master's Degree.  I don't work 90 hour weeks.

They are better, that is why they make more.

Funny how society rewards the best with riches...

"What we are now asked to worship...is the naked, twisted, mindless figure of the human incompetent. This is the new idea, the goal to aim at, the purpose to live for, and all men are to be rewarded according to how close they approach it. This is the age of the common man, they tell us - a title which any man may claim to the extent of such distinction as he managed not to achieve. He will rise to a rank of nobility by means of the effort he has failed to make, he will be honored for such virtue as he has not displayed, and he will be paid for the goods which he did not produce."

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