My father-in-law was in the 5th SS Panzer Division “Wiking”. He fit the profile of soldier that the SS was looking for. He was 17 and given an ultimatum, join or we kill you and your family.

My mother-in-law and my own grandmother who happen to be from the same village in Germany were given basically the same choice, work in a munitions factory or be imprisoned along with your family.

My wife has an uncle who lives in Dachau still to this day, and you can dispute this as much as you want, but there were people who lived near those camps who had no idea exactly what went on inside.

I am by NO MEANS a sympathizer to the Nazis, but you must understand that the German government treated quite a few of their own citizens just as bad as they did others and many Germans were forced into service or face the consequences.

My father-in-law is gone now, he passed away in 1986, but he told me quite a few stories about his service. One story that stands out in my mind is about the time he saved a Hungarian mans life. He found this man laying on the side of the road suffering from a gunshot wound to the stomach. He stopped to render first aid to this man and noted the mans name. Years after the war my wife and her family were vacationing in Hungary and my father-in-law wanted to visit some of the places he was at during the war, one place he wanted to visit was the village where he treated the wounded man. After some asking around, he found out that man had survived the war and was still living there. My father-in-law went to visit the man and was told because of his actions that day the man survived the war.

My wifes family spent the rest of that summer vacation at that mans home, and were invited back each summer, year after year. My father-in-law, that young SS soldier, saved that wounded mans life and in return the two became friends for life.

So, we ask a question about a firearm ,and go off on a subject completely unrealted to what the poster was asking. And with moderator approval, it turns nasty and is allowed to continue.

What the Fuck?

No wonder this place is goign to hell in a handbasket.


To reiterate: this thread is about identifying the pistol the individual is firing. Nowhere did the thread starter ask for your approval of the individual's politics or military background.

Quoted: Looks like some nazi assholes practicing shooting women and children in the head.

Thanks for showing us your ignorance. You assume a soldier of the Wehmarcht is automaticlly a Nazi do you?

Those old sytle shooting styles make me laugh, but some of the older guns are set up to be shot one handed.

Why wasn't two-handed taught earlier?

Yes, the Nazis were evil.

No, the German people were not.

Yes, some Germans were Nazis.

Yes, some Nazis were Austrian, Poles, ect.

Yes, some German soldiers were Nazis.

No, most German soldiers were not.  The average Wermacht soldier was not politically afilitaed.

In the case of Finland, the Germans actually provided them with badly needed weaponry to keep the Soviets from rolling over their country.   They weren't doing it out of the goodness of their heart, their interest was to keep the Soviet Union from taking over Finland.   When the Germans left Finland they were indeed heartless as they burned alot of civilian infrastructure they didn't want to fall into Soviet hands, if the Soviets succeeded in taking over.

As the son of a Finnish war vet, I'm GLAD my father and uncles killed plenty of Russians, and could care less if they did it with German equipment in some cases.

Finland would have just been swallowed up with Poland, East Germany, etc... in years of communism had they not killed someone the US considered our Allies in WW2.

If you were a country that declared Independence from the Soviet Union when communism took over Russia, and being attacked and in imminent danger of losing your freedom, wouldn't you take weapons wherever you can get them?

The situation with the Germans, in particular with Finland, was alot more complex than good guy/bad guy.   In Finland's case, the Russians were a far more evil threat, and the subsequent cold war validated their fears.

Quoted: East German? EDIT: See? http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=233135

East Germany was not around as a nation until 1949. The officer in the picture is a Luftwaffe officer of World War 2. WW2 ended in 1945. The East German armed forces did not even exist until 1956.

Did anyone say FN FNC yet?

Quoted: Did anyone say FN FNC yet?

wasn't that  the gun used in...


not a sig, the rear of the slide is wrong. were those even around in '44?

not a mauser hsc either. the trigger guard is wrong.

it's gotta be a walther pp. the slide's too long for a ppk.

i think this one might be a ppk. they pix don't show the same pistol.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So whats your fucking point? Trying to equate the actions of a rogue group of jacked up American troops to the Nazi government's stated policy of genocide is ridiculous. Ever been to Dachau, Dace? You ought to make the trip sometime. BTW, the pistol is a friggin' PP. trying to make blanket statement that being a German soldier equals Nazi and scum and murderer of innocent women and children is also. Its like saying all americans are scum because of what a few handful did at Abu Gharib prison.  Its what the rest of the world does to us, its what the terrorist do to us, they group us and say well one is bad so they all are in.  I am sorry but you or anyone else who makes a blanket statement is just plain ignorant of historical facts. No never been to Dachau.  Just the site of Bergen Belson, Buchenwald, and Flossenberg.  Do those count?  How about talking with German Jews first hand about what happened.  Does that count?  What about talking to a town mayor about what happened first hand.  Does that count?  What about talking to people who were in the military then.  Does that count? What about visiting the holocaust museum in DC, does that count? Awesome, awesome place.  Very powerful and moving.

The most moving part for me and where I got choked up was near the end with all the shoes.  Just walking through there and being so close to those shoes that were once owned and worn by people who are now dead brought it all home.

Quoted: Those old sytle shooting styles make me laugh, but some of the older guns are set up to be shot one handed. Why wasn't two-handed taught earlier?

A very interesting question.   Deserving of a slight hijack.

Since pistols were designed to be "able" to be fired with one hand, folks tended to think that was how they should be shot.  Early pistols were usually used by soldiers that had a sword in the other hand, or the reins of a horse in the other hand.

It wasn't until the "art of the pistol" was developed by Jeff Cooper and his buddies that someone started using both hands on the pistol.  I may be corrected, but I believe that it was actually Weaver that started this trend.

Other shooters noticed that he shot better using two hands and decided to try it themselves.  They found out what we all now know.....two hands can steady a pistol better than one hand can.

(Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.  )

Yup, I gotsta agree wit 'ya... it looks kinda-sorta like the gun Al Pacino used in Heat!!!

The question of culpability of the German citizen during WWII is a complex one.  Nazi Germany was indeed a totalitarian police state, but guess who has to accept responsibility for this?  How about all of the German citizens who voted the Nazis into power?
Some good points have been made in this thread which is turning into a hijack (and I guess I'm not helping), but there is also some real ignorance going on here.
There are some good reading materials out there for anyone who actually would like to learn more than just bland truisms and Nazi/Holocaust mythology.  Here are a couple:
1) Hitler's Willing Executioners, Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust by Goldhagen.
2) Hitler's Shadow War (I cannot recall the author off the top of my head.  He's a Dutch researcher IIRC).
I highly recommend both; Amazon.com is your friend!

well, at least no one's come out and said it was all a hoax...

Soldiers in the Wehrmacht weren't allowed to vote.

Some units of the SS (Waffen SS) were their equivalent of  special forces or rangers at the time.

Hitler was actually Austrian, and his grandfather or great grandfather was a jew.

The pistol could be anything from a Walther to an Astra or Star.

Now let's quit talking about this Nazi bullshit. Things were different at the time.

.

Quoted: A very interesting question.   Deserving of a slight hijack. )

I'm waiting for this to turn into another 1911 vs. Glock thread before I post again...

The way I always end arguments like this is by asking do you know everything your gov't is doing now? For example Groom Lake, "Secret" CIA prisons? So how can you say that every German new what was going on and that all werel "Nazis" and condoned and supported such acts.




Do you think Austrian's invented the Glock at the end of the war as a secret super weapon for souvenir hungry GI's who would unsuspectingly pick it up and try to use it only to have it blow up in their hands?

Quoted: It's the enemy.  That's all I know about it.

War's over.  

Looks like a Walther PP to me.  First guy appears to be Air Force.