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Posted: 3/25/2009 12:41:46 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why didn't they just update, and re-start production on F-15's? I was at Edwards in 2000 when they debuted the F-22. They had a dogfight demo with Chuck Yeagar st the stick of a F-15, and a cocky ass young combat pilot behind the F-22. Chuck's old ass owned the youngster. The fact that a legendary pilot was able to overcome a massive technological disadvantage doesn't mean we should trade our best warplane for less advanced aircraft. Using that logic, we might as well scrap the both the F-22s and F-15s and go back to P-51s... 
By the time Congress and the defense establishment got done making "new" P-51's they would be $200 million each. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 12:49:27 PM EDT
[#2]
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Why didn't they just update, and re-start production on F-15's? I was at Edwards in 2000 when they debuted the F-22. They had a dogfight demo with Chuck Yeagar st the stick of a F-15, and a cocky ass young combat pilot behind the F-22. Chuck's old ass owned the youngster. Wait a second... Are you telling me that they put 70+ year old Chuck Yeager into a F15 in 2000 and let him dogfight with a F22? Really? That sounds like a load of BS to me. Is it documented anywhere? |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 1:00:30 PM EDT
[#3]
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That's ALOT of money down the drain. That's why they do test flights, to find problems that cause these crashes early. So they can save lives later on. Cuz 150 million dollars isn't worth a life. Really? There is a cost of life and it's a whole lot cheaper than 150,000,000 Think Ford Pinto |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 1:04:15 PM EDT
[#4]
So that leaves us with what, 14 Raptors?
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Posted: 3/25/2009 1:04:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
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Why didn't they just update, and re-start production on F-15's? I was at Edwards in 2000 when they debuted the F-22. They had a dogfight demo with Chuck Yeagar st the stick of a F-15, and a cocky ass young combat pilot behind the F-22. Chuck's old ass owned the youngster. Wait a second... Are you telling me that they put 70+ year old Chuck Yeager into a F15 in 2000 and let him dogfight with a F22? Really? That sounds like a load of BS to me. Is it documented anywhere? really I would like to see the documentationon this as well, smells alot like tons of BS and BO to me. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 1:16:45 PM EDT
[#6]
#1 I hope the pilot is OK
#2 So being that our limited numbers of F-22s are based on its 6:1 advantage over the best enemy fighters, this also means we just lost 6 fighters of our own. 
So we better think of a way to supplement our F-22s with a "low" end fighter for attrition and I'm not talking about the 35 that will end up costing the same. I'm thinking either Superhornet or an upgrade F-16. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 1:25:45 PM EDT
[#7]
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Why didn't they just update, and re-start production on F-15's? I was at Edwards in 2000 when they debuted the F-22. They had a dogfight demo with Chuck Yeagar st the stick of a F-15, and a cocky ass young combat pilot behind the F-22. Chuck's old ass owned the youngster. Hmm. I don't hearing about that, but I was a lot younger back then. I remember Chuck Yeager was at Edwards during the 1997 Air Show flying an F-15D. Here's a photo I took back then: <a href="http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/modnar58/yeageredwards97.jpg" target="_blank">http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/modnar58/th_yeageredwards97.jpg</a> Was it in October? If so, I believe that might have been his last official flight in an F-15 to commemorate the 50th anniversary of him breaking the sound barrier. Yes it was. It was a two-day air show that year. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 2:00:24 PM EDT
[#8]
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Why didn't they just update, and re-start production on F-15's? I was at Edwards in 2000 when they debuted the F-22. They had a dogfight demo with Chuck Yeagar st the stick of a F-15, and a cocky ass young combat pilot behind the F-22. Chuck's old ass owned the youngster. The F-15 is garbage compared to the current F-22. The F-22 had and still has kinks to work out, but with what we have now, it curb stomps the F-15. The F-22 can go up against 15 F-15s and come out on top, without even getting locked on to. I've heard pilots say they've been tailed closely by an F-22 and not even know it was there. They really are wicked. The F-15 is being upgraded, and being made more "stealthy" now, but we're still getting rid of them, and pretty much only doing the upgrades for foreign countries. Only on ARFCOM does a thread about a possibly injured or dead pilot turn into a av-nerd debate. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 2:02:09 PM EDT
[#9]
If it would have been 35 miles southeast I probably would have seen it go down. Lots of aircraft in the sky today, the Tanker 10 just flew over my house at a few hundred feet.
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Posted: 3/25/2009 2:17:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Yeager never did a dogfight between an F-15 and an F-22.
He did dogfight between a Mig-15 and an F-86. He also did comparatives with other US and allied aircraft. His days of high-speed, high-G test piloting and dogfighting were over by the time the F-22 came into the test program at Edwards. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 2:20:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Los Angeles News
Mar 25, 2009 3:01 pm US/Pacific F-22 Crashes Near Edwards Air Force Base EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. (AP) ― One of the Air Force's top-of-the-line F-22 fighter jets crashed Wednesday in the high desert of Southern California. There was no immediate word on whether the pilot ejected. The F-22A Raptor crashed 35 miles northeast of Edwards Air Force Base, Pentagon spokesman Gary Strassburg said. The Bureau of Land Management identifies the area as Harper Dry Lake, a vast and empty expanse of sometimes marshy flat land. Rescue crews were at the site in the afternoon but there was no information on the status of the pilot, Lt. Col. Karen Platt, an Air Force spokeswoman at the Pentagon said. The crash occurred at 10 a.m., said Airman 1st Class William O'Brien, a spokesman at Edwards. The jet, assigned to the 411th Flight Test Squadron of Edwards' 412th Test Wing, was on a test mission, Air Force Maj. David Small at the Pentagon said. Small did not know the nature of the mission. The radar-evading F-22s each cost $140 million and are designed for air dominance. The warplanes can carry air-to-air missiles but are capable of ground attack as well. The $65 billion F-22 program is embattled, with some opponents contending that a different warplane under development, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, is more versatile and less costly at $80 million per plane. F-22s were grounded for two weeks after one crashed at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada in December 2004. They were cleared again to fly after a review, and an Air Force statement at the time said officials were "highly confident in the design, testing and development" of the aircraft. The pilot in that crash successfully ejected. The U.S. is committed to 183 F-22s, down from the original plan laid out in the 1980s to build 750. Its prime contractor, Lockheed Martin Corp., said there are 95,000 jobs at 1,000 companies connected to the F-22. A spokesman for Bethesda, Md.-based Lockheed Martin referred all calls about the crash to the Air Force. Lockheed is trying to convince the Pentagon to buy as many as 20 more F-22s. The military is expected to signal its intentions when the 2010 Defense Department budget is released next month. The F-22 is able to fly at supersonic speeds without using afterburners. That allows it to reach and stay in a battlespace faster and longer without being easily detected. The fighter, powered by two Pratt & Whitney engines, is 62 feet long, has a wingspan of 44 1/2 feet and is flown by a single pilot. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 2:31:28 PM EDT
[#12]
I hope the pilot is alright
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Posted: 3/25/2009 2:38:14 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why didn't they just update, and re-start production on F-15's? I was at Edwards in 2000 when they debuted the F-22. They had a dogfight demo with Chuck Yeagar st the stick of a F-15, and a cocky ass young combat pilot behind the F-22. Chuck's old ass owned the youngster. That's because Yeager, Olds, and the rest have been in a shit-ton of REAL dogfights... Not just training... The man has what, 12 or 13 confirmed kills? I doubt we've got anyone serving in the AF who's beein in more than 3.... Experience can make up for a 1-generation gap in equipment capability, easy enough... Gen. Olds was my dad's boss at Langley. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 2:45:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
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Why didn't they just update, and re-start production on F-15's? I was at Edwards in 2000 when they debuted the F-22. They had a dogfight demo with Chuck Yeagar st the stick of a F-15, and a cocky ass young combat pilot behind the F-22. Chuck's old ass owned the youngster. That's because Yeager, Olds, and the rest have been in a shit-ton of REAL dogfights... Not just training... The man has what, 12 or 13 confirmed kills? I doubt we've got anyone serving in the AF who's beein in more than 3.... Experience can make up for a 1-generation gap in equipment capability, easy enough... Gen. Olds was my dad's boss at Langley. Robin Olds is the fighter pilot's Fighter Pilot. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 2:52:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Yes he is:Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why didn't they just update, and re-start production on F-15's? I was at Edwards in 2000 when they debuted the F-22. They had a dogfight demo with Chuck Yeagar st the stick of a F-15, and a cocky ass young combat pilot behind the F-22. Chuck's old ass owned the youngster. That's because Yeager, Olds, and the rest have been in a shit-ton of REAL dogfights... Not just training... The man has what, 12 or 13 confirmed kills? I doubt we've got anyone serving in the AF who's beein in more than 3.... Experience can make up for a 1-generation gap in equipment capability, easy enough... Gen. Olds was my dad's boss at Langley. Robin Olds is the fighter pilot's Fighter Pilot.  The_Man. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 3:13:46 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Why didn't they just update, and re-start production on F-15's? I was at Edwards in 2000 when they debuted the F-22. They had a dogfight demo with Chuck Yeagar st the stick of a F-15, and a cocky ass young combat pilot behind the F-22. Chuck's old ass owned the youngster. Bull. Talk to even F15 pilots today. There isn't anything flying right now that can hang with the F22. Not even close. Yeager would have been old enough that he couldn't sustain much in the way of G forces. If this took place, someone let him win out of respect for the old hero. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 3:17:51 PM EDT
[#17]
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That's ALOT of money down the drain. That's why they do test flights, to find problems that cause these crashes early. So they can save lives later on. Cuz 150 million dollars isn't worth a life. Every life lost is tragic, but make no mistake, we ARE expendable. +1. It may sound callous, but to be realistic, a human life is not priceless. We all have a certain value attached to our lives, some more, some less, but it in no case is it infinite. Combine the high cost of an F-22, the precious few we have, and their national security value, that fighter may be more valuable to the USA than several lives. Would you say the life of one sailor is more important than the CVN carrier or SSN/SSBN they serve on?
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Posted: 3/25/2009 3:47:22 PM EDT
[#18]
The Yeager F-15 dogfight with the F-22 was complete B.S. Never happened. The Air Force is not going to put a 77 year old man in an F-15 and fly a 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2 sortie, just not going to happen. Ive got a couple of friends still on active duty with fighter units and the F-22 will kill the Eagle very quickly. Even in a gun fight the F-22 is much, much better.
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Posted: 3/25/2009 4:02:24 PM EDT
[#19]
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The Yeager F-15 dogfight with the F-22 was complete B.S. Never happened. The Air Force is not going to put a 77 year old man in an F-15 and fly a 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2 sortie, just not going to happen. Ive got a couple of friends still on active duty with fighter units and the F-22 will kill the Eagle very quickly. Even in a gun fight the F-22 is much, much better. Improbable is not impossible. I have no idea whether this fight happened or not, it sounds goofy, but it is the Air Force, after all. But the F-22 is not an unbeatable fighter. To fire anything other than cannons it gives up "stealth," and the idea of conventional stealth has been dead for about 10 years now thanks to the Norwegians. In my opinion, some of the new, stealthy F-15s and 16s with thrust vectoring and the advanced avionics package are a better deal. But then weapons procurement is never about weapons so much as about making Lockheed-Martin / Boeing rich! rich! rich! Cha-cha-cha. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 4:13:31 PM EDT
[#20]
The U.S. Air Force has confirmed an F-22A Raptor crashed about 10 a.m. today around 35 miles northeast of Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., where it was based. The condition of the pilot is unknown at this time, the USAF said just minutes ago.
A program source tells Aviation Week that the reason the pilot's fate is unknown is because the F-22 was separated from the chase plane at the time of the accident and the chase pilot did not see what happened. The Raptor was on an unidentified test mission. So far it appears to have been a captive carry weapons test by the 412th Test Wing. A USAF statement said a board of officers will investigate the accident. "As soon as additional details of the crash become available, they will be provided," the service said. This is the second time an F-22 has crashed. The first was during the aircraft's test and evaluation period in December 2004 also at Edwards, during which the pilot ejected safely. The Air Force currently has 134 F-22s in its inventory. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 4:15:29 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Why didn't they just update, and re-start production on F-15's? I was at Edwards in 2000 when they debuted the F-22. They had a dogfight demo with Chuck Yeagar st the stick of a F-15, and a cocky ass young combat pilot behind the F-22. Chuck's old ass owned the youngster. 
The F22's first public display was at the Edwards 2003 Open House. 2A373 F-22 Crew Chief 2000-2005 F-22 Combined Test Force Edwards AFB, CA |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 4:15:31 PM EDT
[#22]
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The Yeager F-15 dogfight with the F-22 was complete B.S. Never happened. The Air Force is not going to put a 77 year old man in an F-15 and fly a 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2 sortie, just not going to happen. Ive got a couple of friends still on active duty with fighter units and the F-22 will kill the Eagle very quickly. Even in a gun fight the F-22 is much, much better. Improbable is not impossible. I have no idea whether this fight happened or not, it sounds goofy, but it is the Air Force, after all. But the F-22 is not an unbeatable fighter. To fire anything other than cannons it gives up "stealth," and the idea of conventional stealth has been dead for about 10 years now thanks to the Norwegians. In my opinion, some of the new, stealthy F-15s and 16s with thrust vectoring and the advanced avionics package are a better deal. But then weapons procurement is never about weapons so much as about making Lockheed-Martin / Boeing rich! rich! rich! Cha-cha-cha. I'm a buyer for Lockheed Aeronautics and trust me, we distribute alot of that money down the food chain. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 4:26:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Is that the only Raptor we have lost?
If that is the case that is amazing regardless of the cost and technolgy it is a supersonic flying piece of sheet metal that weighs over 20000 pounds. We lost a half dozen osprey before they were even stood up I think about 2 dozen H-53As went down in testing and if you look at any Navy Mishap board you will see that we lose about 10-15 aicraft a year dusring testing and training! |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 4:40:12 PM EDT
[#24]
Wow for that price we could have had THIS
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Posted: 3/25/2009 4:45:29 PM EDT
[#25]
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Yes he is was:
Quoted:
Gen. Olds was my dad's boss at Langley. Robin Olds is the fighter pilot's Fighter Pilot. http://www.generalraydavis.net/images/Robin%20Olds%20&%20Dan%20Lafferty.jpg The_Man. [/quote]
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Posted: 3/25/2009 4:48:27 PM EDT
[#26]
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Still no word on the status of the pilot. Now they're reportnig pilot ejected/unhurt. Then he did far better than some of us in past relationships. Usually there's some damage even when we eject early enough. 
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Posted: 3/25/2009 4:51:29 PM EDT
[#27]
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Is that the only Raptor we have lost? If that is the case that is amazing regardless of the cost and technolgy it is a supersonic flying piece of sheet metal that weighs over 20000 pounds. We lost a half dozen osprey before they were even stood up I think about 2 dozen H-53As went down in testing and if you look at any Navy Mishap board you will see that we lose about 10-15 aicraft a year dusring testing and training! No, third I know of. One at Nellis in 2004. Another one on some kind of display in NY. I forget the tail number but I thought it was recycled? |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 4:55:07 PM EDT
[#28]
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Is that the only Raptor we have lost? If that is the case that is amazing regardless of the cost and technolgy it is a supersonic flying piece of sheet metal that weighs over 20000 pounds. We lost a half dozen osprey before they were even stood up I think about 2 dozen H-53As went down in testing and if you look at any Navy Mishap board you will see that we lose about 10-15 aicraft a year dusring testing and training! No, third I know of. One at Nellis in 2004. Another one on some kind of display in NY. I forget the tail number but I thought it was recycled? ETA. YF test model in 1992. Oops wrong button
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Posted: 3/25/2009 4:56:11 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
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Is that the only Raptor we have lost? If that is the case that is amazing regardless of the cost and technolgy it is a supersonic flying piece of sheet metal that weighs over 20000 pounds. We lost a half dozen osprey before they were even stood up I think about 2 dozen H-53As went down in testing and if you look at any Navy Mishap board you will see that we lose about 10-15 aicraft a year dusring testing and training! No, third I know of. One at Nellis in 2004. Another one on some kind of display in NY. I forget the tail number but I thought it was recycled? Only 2, this one and the Nellis one. The YF-22 crash does not count as a F-22 crash. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 4:57:47 PM EDT
[#30]
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Is that the only Raptor we have lost? If that is the case that is amazing regardless of the cost and technolgy it is a supersonic flying piece of sheet metal that weighs over 20000 pounds. We lost a half dozen osprey before they were even stood up I think about 2 dozen H-53As went down in testing and if you look at any Navy Mishap board you will see that we lose about 10-15 aicraft a year dusring testing and training! No, third I know of. One at Nellis in 2004. Another one on some kind of display in NY. I forget the tail number but I thought it was recycled? Only 2, this one and the Nellis one. The YF-22 crash does not count as a F-22 crash. Ok
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:02:37 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:04:07 PM EDT
[#32]
Damn. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:04:20 PM EDT
[#33]
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:05:02 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:05:25 PM EDT
[#35]
R.I.P. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:08:21 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
The fighter was on a test mission when it crashed
Is it safe to say it failed that particular test?
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:09:28 PM EDT
[#37]
Tragic.
Least he got to fly THE dominant bird in the sky and served to ensure our nations air dominance . Oops I thought I read that LT.Col Platt was the pilot. Still.Id give my left nut to take off full burners in the raptor. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:16:01 PM EDT
[#38]
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Tragic. Least she got to fly THE dominant bird in the sky and served to ensure our nations air dominance . The LM/ADP (LMSW) test pilot was in fact a female? Not that it matters.... I saw that the Lt Col Karen Platt, USAF spokeswoman was mentioned earlier..... |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:19:48 PM EDT
[#39]
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Have there been that many? I know there has been a couple, but there are always going to be aviation incidents. I haven't noticed an unusual amount.
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Our military is on a roll.... Care to clarify this statement? Talking about all the military plane crashes as of late. I didn't say it, but sadly, there has been more crashes than usual, lately. The FedEx plane in Tokyo The ski trip crash F22 in CA. All in the last few days. There has been more than usual. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:24:52 PM EDT
[#40]
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ETA Just got confirmation that it was the structural test bird... 4006? |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:32:54 PM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:34:14 PM EDT
[#42]
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ETA Just got confirmation that it was the structural test bird... 4006? 4008 my source said... |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:34:33 PM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:34:37 PM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:40:45 PM EDT
[#45]
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ETA Just got confirmation that it was the structural test bird... 4006? 4008 my source said... Then I have worked on both of the F-22s that have crashed. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:40:58 PM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:42:43 PM EDT
[#47]
Damn.
I'm curious to find out what happened, but I don't expect many details to be released.
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:43:20 PM EDT
[#48]
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ETA Just got confirmation that it was the structural test bird... 4006? 4008 my source said... Then I have worked on both of the F-22s that have crashed. Huh......imagine that. 
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Posted: 3/25/2009 5:48:03 PM EDT
[#49]
damn |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 6:11:50 PM EDT
[#50]
Sorry to hear the news. My condolences to his family and friends
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