[ARCHIVED THREAD] - CAV ARMS LOSES FFL TO ATF and OWNER ADMITS TO ILLEGALLY SELLING 40 GUNS, COULD DO TIME. (Page 5 of 34)
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If this is true, I no longer feel sorry for them. +1 With holding judgement until CavArms airs their rebuttal (if ever) but if the article is true as written, than I have no sympathy. I don't buy the "pleading guilty to get it all over BS" if I'm innocent I will not plead guilty period, if you want to try to rail road me, well I'll cross that bridge if I have to but it won't be a pretty sight. Then you will either die or go to prison for a very long time. Or if you're lucky you might be able to flee the country with the clothes on your back. Those are the choices. Most people with something to live for usually pick guilty plea to a lesser charge. This is a HUGE part of why I try not to judge someone for a past criminal history. |
Given the thread that read about the guy who got nailed for a SBR/AOW charge for a VFG on his HK pistol(.223 version) even though it wasnt attached. AND I have a ruger pistol with a forward rail AND I have a VFG attached to my AR rail at the moment with a little unscrewing and screwing I TOO can be a felon in about 45 seconds... IMHO the laws are unjust but they are the LAW, and must be obeyed unless you have 100k rounds in your basement and your own anti tank weapons(though mounting on a cav arms is a warrenty violation and not adviseable... )
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Wow, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that half of Arfcom is ready to throw Cav Arms under the bus based on one incredibly biased article. So you guys really think Shawn was intending to go into the gun running business? That article was written with nothing but the ATF's perspective. They've had over 2 years to drum up some kind of BS charges and after getting 90% of their case thrown out the best they can do is pin Shawn Nealon with a supposed "illegal transfer" of what were probably personally owned weapons? Face it, ATF had Shawn and Cav Arms over a barrel; he got as much of the govt's case thrown out as they could but in the end the government always wins 
There was no crime committed here, at the end of all this ordeal they nailed a good business to the wall for paperwork errors. All this event does is make me hate the BATF even more. Amen... |
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So, from what I can tell, an unconstitutional agency, which enforces unconstitutional laws, walked all over a man whose "crime" was selling what appears to be his personal firearms, and those transactions weren't documented. The way I read it: If he hadn't been an FFL and sold the firearms, there wouldn't have been a problem since they wouldn't have had to be documented. Since he held an FFL, he was supposed to doc EVERY transaction, even though they were his personal weapons. So, we have it legal for one group (non-FFL), but illegal for another group (FFL). How is that something a man should be put in prison for, and why in the world should any FFL holder EVER have to document their personal collection sales? I bet all the "throw 'em under the bus" crowd wouldn't mind the liberals passing a law to get ALL firearm transactions going through NICS and have the buyer fill out 4473's, even if it's in a "gunshow" or a private sale. With such a law, a sale that was legal the year before the law would now land you in prison with a felony (probably), and yet, NEITHER incident involved a real crime in which someone was harmed. Once again, the government has a created a class of "criminal" whose only crime has been not adhering to some mountain of paperwork in the way they wished at a certain moment, and has subsequently screwed over the otherwise innocent offender. It sucks that nobody has the balls to use jury nullification any longer and that judges are so steeped in the mindset of "I MAKE THE LAW IN THIS COURTROOM!" that they throw anybody off the jury who would use it. |
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Quoted: Quoted: He could easily be accused of dealing without a license by a grumpy ATF, my guess.Quoted: I'm sorry but I don't see the connection.Quoted: For someone 'defending' the ATF's actions, you have ALOT of posts in the EE offering guns for sale...Am I the only one who is sick of people on the internet or news whine and cry they diden't do anything wrong but it turns out they are guilty as shit? TRG Those transactions were over the course of four years. Sure it's a lot but really not suspicious I would think. Edit: Sorry Ed, if this is the stuff that you were talking about I'll stop.  |
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Every FFL has heard the horror stories of the ATF and they heard these stories way before they became FFL's. My point is every FFL knows the rules before they play the game. If you don't like the rules or the possible consequences you shouldn't play the fucking game, period. You cant claim ignorance as an FFL, you loose that luxury. At the very least Shawn knew he was pushing the gray area, he must have, he's not a stupid guy. You don't want any "gray area" as an FFL. I've lost all sympathy for them, as in my eyes they have been very misleading with the whole "We have no idea why the ATF knocked down our doors, none whatsoever" I don't like the ATF as much as the next guy, but like them or not if you want to hold an FFL you get to play by their rules. I don't see why, they raided his business and the charges don't seem to be about the lowers their company makes but about 40 assorted weapons stored at his home. If this was about a bunch of cav arms lowers then I'd agree but it sounds like the charges he's pled to are a dug up afterthought. |
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Sounds like bullshit to me. ANY record-keeping errors can easily be turned into "oh he did this INTENTIONALLY TO HIDE it!" What a load of crap. This. Why would I trust anything the .gov tells me, especially the ATF and their USA mouthpiece? I wonder if some of the so-called illegal activity was someone writing "Y" on a form instead of "YES". |
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He could easily be accused of dealing without a license by a grumpy ATF, my guess.Quoted:
I'm sorry but I don't see the connection.
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For someone 'defending' the ATF's actions, you have ALOT of posts in the EE offering guns for sale...
Am I the only one who is sick of people on the internet or news whine and cry they diden't do anything wrong but it turns out they are guilty as shit? TRG Those transactions were over the course of four years. Sure it's a lot but really not suspicious I would think. Edit: Sorry Ed, if this is the stuff that you were talking about I'll stop.
Well by his own reasoning with his brothers, we should maybe let the ATF decide that then? |
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The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. As stated above, there are too many documented accounts to the opposite. name one innocent person that the ATF just came and fucked with for no reason? David Olofson. was not exactly innocent. |
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There are a number of, I'm sure, very good people who work for the BATFE. I'm sure they are upstanding and righteous and they carry out their duties with justice and fairness in mind. That being said....I don't trust or care for the BATFE. I try to be as reasonable of a dude as possible and I'm not some tinfoil hat wearing loon, but I don't trust the ATF as an organization farther than I can throw it because there are too many documented, provable examples that show the organization is ate the hell up. Residency checks in Richmond, dragnetting AR-15 owners in Virginia in the aftermath of the DC sniper episode.... No sir...I don't trust 'em. Cav Arms may have been 100% in the wrong here, legally. I don't know. I don't know anyone at Cav Arms or who they dealt with. I never even bought a single item from them... All I know is that I don't trust the BATFE for an unbiased account of what happened. If I were made unquestioned dictator tomorrow, my first act would be to disband the BATFE and to strip the replacement organization of any and all discretionary authority. The organization has proven to me over the years that they can't handle it. Can you elaborate on the bolded, red portion? http://www.gunweek.com/2005/atf0910.html http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/ATF/e0707/final.pdf
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That being said....I don't trust or care for the BATFE. No sir...I don't trust 'em. . And yet the hordes are rushing to throw Shawn under the bus without a second thought about the BATFE and their methods and tactics. TRG This place has become a playpen for retarded children. And GD is the bottom of the ball pit where all the shit collects. I wonder how many of these stupid motherfuckers understand just how Byzantine the laws related to this industry are? i have no desire to throw cav arms or shawn under the bus. I also think there are 2 sides to the story and don't blindly believe anything from anyone. It appears at some level ar15.com "may" have been deceived as to what was going on. It may also have been they honestly did not know until recently exactly what was being investigated. the guys at cav arms ARE a good bunch. even good people do stupid things occasionally. IF the ATF got him on that there really is no excuse for them. |
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Am I the only one who is sick of people on the internet or news whine and cry they diden't do anything wrong but it turns out they are guilty as shit? So says the ATF though . . . . First off, thanks for replying to most every post in this thread. Secondly, what the crap are you talking about? You are welcome. We have heard the ATF side, so I'd like to hear the other before passing judgement. Oh - if that's OK with you 
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He could easily be accused of dealing without a license by a grumpy ATF, my guess.Quoted:
I'm sorry but I don't see the connection.
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For someone 'defending' the ATF's actions, you have ALOT of posts in the EE offering guns for sale...
Am I the only one who is sick of people on the internet or news whine and cry they diden't do anything wrong but it turns out they are guilty as shit? TRG Those transactions were over the course of four years. Sure it's a lot but really not suspicious I would think. Edit: Sorry Ed, if this is the stuff that you were talking about I'll stop.
Well by his own reasoning with his brothers, we should maybe let the ATF decide that then? Remind me never to piss you guys off, ok? 
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Bleh Im sure that if the bATFe looked at any FFL long enough, and hard enough, they would find something wrong. Im sure the lesson the bATFe wants people to take from this is "Dont hold guns for friends that live in more restrictive states" (or similiar). All those guns Californians might be holding with friends in Nevada/Arizona, or New Yorkers in Pennsylvania, etc etc, might end up frying their friends... This sounds alot like what the bATFe is(was?) doing to Blackwater/Xe with them "holding" the sheriff dept's machine guns.... |
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Important repost IMHO:
3 Felonies A Day http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842.html |
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Since CavArms can't/won't respond directly to questions asking for clarification about the points in the article I unfortunately have to assume the legal facts that are reported in the article are actually true. The fact is, this is no longer a case of an unjustified raid on a business that was doing nothing illegal. Accounting mistakes? Booking keeping mistakes? Not really. 40 off the books sales to someone from California is not a minor over sight and this was not a witch hunt without basis. "Those weapons included: nine 9mm handguns, five .45-caliber handguns, five .22-caliber handguns, five .223 rifles, three 12-gauge shotguns, two .38-caliber handguns, two .44-caliber handguns, a .380-caliber handgun, a .308 rifle, a 7.62x39mm rifle, a 5.45x39mm rifle and a .357 rifle. " Most of that isn't even CavArms stuff, AFAIK. These may have been personal guns, not required to be on any books. We don't know. They are required to go through an FFL if sold to an out of state resident. CavArms should be well aware of that aspect of the law. That's true, but what does that have to do with CavArms and their FFL? This appears to be a private transfer between two individuals (which in this case is illegal due to their states of residence). |
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There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.-rand |
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The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. As stated above, there are too many documented accounts to the opposite. name one innocent person that the ATF just came and fucked with for no reason? Well just off the top of my head there is moses over at falfiles. |
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Shawn nealon admitted illegal sale of weapons , Guilty. It pretty much comes down to that for me. If he hadn't done that, I'd still maintain the entire BATFE raid and everything coming from it was a farce. But when the guy stands up and says, "Guilty".... 
Are you fucking kidding me? This is a well known tactic of gov agencies and one that was discussed many times in the huge thread. They throw the book at someone, tear their life upside down, confiscate their property and they just sit back and wait. They the huge powers and checkbook of the gov to spend you into submission. They have nothing to lose and the individual has everything to lose and limited resources to fight. In the end they come to you with limitless list of bullshit charges that you can no longer fight and say "We can make this go away if you just say you were guilty on this one little charge" and at that point you are beat. You sign the paper so you can just get it all over with because you are out of options. We knew this might happen, it was discussed many times in the Cav threads. I'm completely shocked that some of you are surprised that this was the outcome. My only question was how hard the final blow would be. would it be a felony? Jail time? (standard is 366 days so the target loses his gun rights), loss of FFL? Anyone with any brains knew that innocent or not Shawn would probably in the end be bankrupted into giving up something, the only question was what. I dunno, but I think I'd rather take my chances with a jury rather than cop a plea to a felony I didn't commit. This. |
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From about the second week of this there has been items left unsaid - which I suspect any attorney would have advised their client about leaving those items unsaid. We do not know - and may never know, where in the black/white/gray spectrum that these "illegal" transfers actually fell. It is very possible there were white with a few spots on the page - spots that the ATF said they would extrapolate to the fullest extent of creative legal interpretation - an art the ATF is very good at.
It is sad to see that they were forced into accepting a bargain - and that bargain is not favorable in our eyes given our limited knowledge of what is going on and how the parties felt. At this point I do not regret my support via lower purchases. For the rest - at the moment I will simply rely on eternal judgment or karma (depending on your faith). |
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I dunno, but I think I'd rather take my chances with a jury rather than cop a plea to a felony I didn't commit. I wonder what the average defense cost for a federal trial is... More than I can afford, and I'm not esp. poor. You'd be surprised about the kind of money I've seen people put up. Grandparents mortgage houses paid for for decades, people cash in retirement, life insurance... If your livelihood was on the line (FFL holder), you wouldn't find some way to come up with the money? Please. |
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The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. As stated above, there are too many documented accounts to the opposite. name one innocent person that the ATF just came and fucked with for no reason? David Olofson. was not exactly innocent. No he was not. |
Who was the AR15.com memebr that bought 40 guns without a AZ license or ID card? 
Nealon had illegally sold weapons to out-of-state buyers, more than 40 of those to a California resident who often stored those weapons at Nealon's home. Those weapons included: nine 9mm handguns, five .45-caliber handguns, five .22-caliber handguns, five .223 rifles, three 12-gauge shotguns, two .38-caliber handguns, two .44-caliber handguns, a .380-caliber handgun, a .308 rifle, a 7.62x39mm rifle, a 5.45x39mm rifle and a .357 rifle. It wasnt me! |
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Quoted: Quoted: that sucks to hear, but the ATF still is a bunch of douchebags How? Cavarms stepped on their dicks doing stupid shit. Glad I never dealt with them or contributed to their "legal defence fund". Fuckers should be banned from ARFCOM now. Snort, like you have never stepped on your dick... |
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33 page court document from PACER detailing all allegations:
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B6KRQT10vNOzZWM1N2UzNjgtNWY3YS00NWVhLWJmYmEtNWEyOWI5OThjZjk2&hl=en |
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YES... this is worth getting banned for. While I agree, in part, you aren't going to help things by getting yourself nuked. I agreed as well. Bunch of turncoats glibbly swallowing the ATF's story. TRG For fuck's sake he plead guilty. The man admitted committing a crime. He's an FFL. Actions have consequences. I'm not especially fond of the ATF but for fuck's sake, the man plead it out. And he most likely did not plead as charged, meaning that he was most likely facing other charges as well and did this to reduce his criminal liability. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - CAV ARMS LOSES FFL TO ATF and OWNER ADMITS TO ILLEGALLY SELLING 40 GUNS, COULD DO TIME. (Page 5 of 34)
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