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Link Posted: 12/12/2013 2:07:18 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


Hard to argue with that.  But it's the .gov, not farmers doing it.  It's the same as building contractors reaping the benefits of rebates for insulation and

energy efficient windows, no?
 

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The agriculture lobby plays a very large part in making sure that mandate stays put.  A lobby that a good deal of farmers support.

You are absolutely correct about the "energy efficient" industries and I am just as a against those types of programs as well.  Any .gov intervention, be it a handout, mandate, or subsidy with tax payers dollars is legislated theft.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 2:09:31 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Staggunner:


Hard to argue with that.  But it's the .gov, not farmers doing it.  It's the same as building contractors reaping the benefits of rebates for insulation and

energy efficient windows, no?
 

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Originally Posted By Staggunner:
Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By Staggunner:
Originally Posted By beardog30:

Most people are just to selfish or ignorant to understand welfare when they are the ones receiving it.  I have lots of friends that farm due to my love of bird hunting.  It is amazing to listen to them cuss Obungo care but at the same time talk about putting as much land as they physically can in corn.

They will cuss the FSA the loudest, yet the very industry that supports them is part of the FSA.


Cmon.  Most farmers have a generational investment.  They own land, machinery, livestock, etc.  That is hardly comparable to a check for sitting

in the hood watching Oprah.  Farmers never got the subsidy, the blenders did.  And that expired.  No one gets a fucking ethanol subsidy.


 


Did I ever say anything about a subsidy?  I said mandate.  Ethanol is mandated to the tune of 12-14 billion gallons.  Know what  that creates?  A false market.  You know what an ethanol mandate is very similar to?  A health care mandate...i.e. Obungo care.

i'm sure tons of people would love it if they could legislate you must buy X amount of my product...you know what that is....it is legislated theft.


Hard to argue with that.  But it's the .gov, not farmers doing it.  It's the same as building contractors reaping the benefits of rebates for insulation and

energy efficient windows, no?
 



No.  Farmers, and more importantly agribusiness, support politicians based on their position on farm policy.  Try running for President and see how far you get in Iowa on an anti-ethanol platform.  Building contractors don't get a pass on the rebates either, since they tend to lobby hard for such programs.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 2:26:31 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Staggunner:

Cmon.  Most farmers have a generational investment.  They own land, machinery, livestock, etc.  That is hardly comparable to a check for sitting

in the hood watching Oprah.  Farmers never got the subsidy, the blenders did.  And that expired.  No one gets a fucking ethanol subsidy.


 
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I'm glad that farmers are nice people, but the stereotypical multigenerational welfare queen doesn't sneak into my garage and break my fucking lawnmower.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 2:26:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2013 2:30:50 PM EDT by Staggunner]


The farm lobby does have an effect yes.  But food is a strategic weapon.  That is the reason all governments meddle in agriculture.  Almost every





country on earth has had famine except us.  US farmers can compete with any farmer anywhere in the world, but we cannot compete with foreign





treasuries.  Every, and I mean every, nation subsidizes their farmers more than the US.  We have by far the cheapest food in the 1st world.  We are fat





and happy, but still bitch.  Be careful what you wish for, food is not steel, autos, or textiles we can run overseas with impunity.













 
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 2:30:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 2:31:10 PM EDT
But what about my cheap race gas!



I like feeding my snail cheap corn liquor, he responds really well to it!
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 2:31:59 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Staggunner:
The farm lobby does have an effect yes.  But food is a strategic weapon.  That is the reason all governments meddle in agriculture.  Almost every

country on earth has had famine except us.  US farmers can compete with any farmer anywhere in the world, but we cannot compete with foreign

treasuries.  Every, and I mean every, nation subsidizes their farmers more than the US.  We have by far the cheapest food in the 1st world.  We are fat

and happy, but still bitch.  Be careful what you wish for, food is not steel, autos, or textiles we can run overseas with impunity.

View Quote


Except it's not about food, it's about money.

Ethanol production DECREASES food security, not increases it.  It doesn't do crap to decrease our reliance on foreign oil.  And it's value in fighting pollution is almost negligible as older cars that benefit from oxygenated fuels come off the road.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 2:40:33 PM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By R2point0:
Except it's not about food, it's about money.



Ethanol production DECREASES food security, not increases it.  It doesn't do crap to decrease our reliance on foreign oil.  And it's value in fighting pollution is almost negligible as older cars that benefit from oxygenated fuels come off the road.
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Originally Posted By R2point0:



Originally Posted By Staggunner:

The farm lobby does have an effect yes.  But food is a strategic weapon.  That is the reason all governments meddle in agriculture.  Almost every



country on earth has had famine except us.  US farmers can compete with any farmer anywhere in the world, but we cannot compete with foreign



treasuries.  Every, and I mean every, nation subsidizes their farmers more than the US.  We have by far the cheapest food in the 1st world.  We are fat



and happy, but still bitch.  Be careful what you wish for, food is not steel, autos, or textiles we can run overseas with impunity.







Except it's not about food, it's about money.



Ethanol production DECREASES food security, not increases it.  It doesn't do crap to decrease our reliance on foreign oil.  And it's value in fighting pollution is almost negligible as older cars that benefit from oxygenated fuels come off the road.




I disagree.  Ethanol might decrease food SUPPLIES a bit, but it keeps food producers in business.  Should the need arise, they will be there to keep you fat.



 

Link Posted: 12/12/2013 3:03:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2013 3:03:58 PM EDT by beardog30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Staggunner:
The farm lobby does have an effect yes.  But food is a strategic weapon.  That is the reason all governments meddle in agriculture.  Almost every

country on earth has had famine except us.  US farmers can compete with any farmer anywhere in the world, but we cannot compete with foreign

treasuries.  Every, and I mean every, nation subsidizes their farmers more than the US.  We have by far the cheapest food in the 1st world.  We are fat

and happy, but still bitch.  Be careful what you wish for, food is not steel, autos, or textiles we can run overseas with impunity.



 
View Quote

I will agree that food production is a strategic resource that needs to be protected and should fall appropriately under the commerce clause.  Ethanol does not effectively protect that resource long term.

We had a great program in place to protect that resource called CRP.  CRP was wonderful, it helped keep farmers in business, protected the soil, and as a side benefit helped produce natural habitat .  Farmers tilling every single scrap of ground to put in crop production will give us another dust bowl.  Contour farming isn't enough to stave off soil erosion, especially during drought.  You need fence rows and water breaks for that.  This already happened once after WW1...farmers seriously can't be that short cited.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 3:17:56 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By Visionary:





Ethanol is one of the worst and most inefficient ideas ever.  Costs more to make than gas, lower energy content than gas, drives up food prices and ruins small engines.  It needs to go away.  The only people who like it are corn farmers.
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Originally Posted By Visionary:



Originally Posted By Staggunner:

Tis an ill wind that blows no one any good.  Ethanol does not fuck everyone.


Ethanol is one of the worst and most inefficient ideas ever.  Costs more to make than gas, lower energy content than gas, drives up food prices and ruins small engines.  It needs to go away.  The only people who like it are corn farmers.




 
This.




I want my chainsaws to last a few years.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 3:21:57 PM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By beardog30:





I will agree that food production is a strategic resource that needs to be protected and should fall appropriately under the commerce clause.  Ethanol does not effectively protect that resource long term.



We had a great program in place to protect that resource called CRP.  CRP was wonderful, it helped keep farmers in business, protected the soil, and as a side benefit helped produce natural habitat .  Farmers tilling every single scrap of ground to put in crop production will give us another dust bowl.  Contour farming isn't enough to stave off soil erosion, especially during drought.  You need fence rows and water breaks for that.  This already happened once after WW1...farmers seriously can't be that short cited.
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Originally Posted By beardog30:



Originally Posted By Staggunner:

The farm lobby does have an effect yes.  But food is a strategic weapon.  That is the reason all governments meddle in agriculture.  Almost every



country on earth has had famine except us.  US farmers can compete with any farmer anywhere in the world, but we cannot compete with foreign



treasuries.  Every, and I mean every, nation subsidizes their farmers more than the US.  We have by far the cheapest food in the 1st world.  We are fat



and happy, but still bitch.  Be careful what you wish for, food is not steel, autos, or textiles we can run overseas with impunity.
 


I will agree that food production is a strategic resource that needs to be protected and should fall appropriately under the commerce clause.  Ethanol does not effectively protect that resource long term.



We had a great program in place to protect that resource called CRP.  CRP was wonderful, it helped keep farmers in business, protected the soil, and as a side benefit helped produce natural habitat .  Farmers tilling every single scrap of ground to put in crop production will give us another dust bowl.  Contour farming isn't enough to stave off soil erosion, especially during drought.  You need fence rows and water breaks for that.  This already happened once after WW1...farmers seriously can't be that short cited.




By some reasoning, CRP was actually much more communist than ethanol.  It took land out of production except for grazing in the winter.  Those guys got a direct check from the USDA.





Ethanol took grain out of the market, not land.  Choose your poison.



 

Link Posted: 12/12/2013 3:37:30 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By P400:
What a coincidence - I'm against Boehner, Feinstein and ethanol!!!
View Quote


And that's just the beginning of the list.


Link Posted: 12/12/2013 3:39:10 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By beardog30:

I will agree that food production is a strategic resource that needs to be protected and should fall appropriately under the commerce clause.  Ethanol does not effectively protect that resource long term.

We had a great program in place to protect that resource called CRP.  CRP was wonderful, it helped keep farmers in business, protected the soil, and as a side benefit helped produce natural habitat .  Farmers tilling every single scrap of ground to put in crop production will give us another dust bowl.  Contour farming isn't enough to stave off soil erosion, especially during drought.  You need fence rows and water breaks for that.  This already happened once after WW1...farmers seriously can't be that short cited.
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Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By Staggunner:
The farm lobby does have an effect yes.  But food is a strategic weapon.  That is the reason all governments meddle in agriculture.  Almost every

country on earth has had famine except us.  US farmers can compete with any farmer anywhere in the world, but we cannot compete with foreign

treasuries.  Every, and I mean every, nation subsidizes their farmers more than the US.  We have by far the cheapest food in the 1st world.  We are fat

and happy, but still bitch.  Be careful what you wish for, food is not steel, autos, or textiles we can run overseas with impunity.



 

I will agree that food production is a strategic resource that needs to be protected and should fall appropriately under the commerce clause.  Ethanol does not effectively protect that resource long term.

We had a great program in place to protect that resource called CRP.  CRP was wonderful, it helped keep farmers in business, protected the soil, and as a side benefit helped produce natural habitat .  Farmers tilling every single scrap of ground to put in crop production will give us another dust bowl.  Contour farming isn't enough to stave off soil erosion, especially during drought.  You need fence rows and water breaks for that.  This already happened once after WW1...farmers seriously can't be that short cited.


So you are OK with the .gov paying farmers to NOT work and just throw CRP on half their ground, but ethanol mandates are the devil? At least they create an industry and provide actual jobs to many folks in many different arenas.

And your assertion is wrong.....farmers have been planting every scrap of ground around here for decades and the ground is no worse off.  May be different in other parts of the country, but I don't live there so I can't really speak about that.  The only way you would or will find CRP is if A. the farmer is a hunter and doing it for his own benefit.  B.  He leases his land out for big money to the city boys from up north and makes more than what he would working his ground.  or C. it is shit ground that won't yield much and CRP is more profitable.  

Judging by your avatar, your opinion of CRP ground may be a bit biased and I have a feeling you have lost some prime hunting ground to those "damn greedy farmers"  (I know, pheasants and quail are pretty much non existent around here these days....nothing like how it used to be.  I miss it)
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 3:40:24 PM EDT
Does this mean that we can now divide by zero?
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 3:55:21 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Staggunner:


By some reasoning, CRP was actually much more communist than ethanol.  It took land out of production except for grazing in the winter.  Those guys got a direct check from the USDA.



Ethanol took grain out of the market, not land.  Choose your poison.
 

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Originally Posted By Staggunner:
Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By Staggunner:
The farm lobby does have an effect yes.  But food is a strategic weapon.  That is the reason all governments meddle in agriculture.  Almost every

country on earth has had famine except us.  US farmers can compete with any farmer anywhere in the world, but we cannot compete with foreign

treasuries.  Every, and I mean every, nation subsidizes their farmers more than the US.  We have by far the cheapest food in the 1st world.  We are fat

and happy, but still bitch.  Be careful what you wish for, food is not steel, autos, or textiles we can run overseas with impunity.



 

I will agree that food production is a strategic resource that needs to be protected and should fall appropriately under the commerce clause.  Ethanol does not effectively protect that resource long term.

We had a great program in place to protect that resource called CRP.  CRP was wonderful, it helped keep farmers in business, protected the soil, and as a side benefit helped produce natural habitat .  Farmers tilling every single scrap of ground to put in crop production will give us another dust bowl.  Contour farming isn't enough to stave off soil erosion, especially during drought.  You need fence rows and water breaks for that.  This already happened once after WW1...farmers seriously can't be that short cited.


By some reasoning, CRP was actually much more communist than ethanol.  It took land out of production except for grazing in the winter.  Those guys got a direct check from the USDA.



Ethanol took grain out of the market, not land.  Choose your poison.
 


Disagree.  The strategic value is in having land that can be put under the plow.  There is no such thing as an ethanol market without the economies of scale that billions of gallons of mandated ethanol the EPA requires.  

Ethanol at best supplies a very short term solution to the strategic interest.  It won't do anyone any good within 10 years all the good top soil has blown away...again you seem to be ignoring history with what happened with the dust bowl.

CRP secures a strategic interest.  It doesn't create a false market, it pays farmers for land that could be needed on day and helps keep the land that is already under plow from eroding away.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 3:59:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2013 4:06:44 PM EDT by beardog30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sanunan:


So you are OK with the .gov paying farmers to NOT work and just throw CRP on half their ground, but ethanol mandates are the devil? At least they create an industry and provide actual jobs to many folks in many different arenas.

And your assertion is wrong.....farmers have been planting every scrap of ground around here for decades and the ground is no worse off.  May be different in other parts of the country, but I don't live there so I can't really speak about that.  The only way you would or will find CRP is if A. the farmer is a hunter and doing it for his own benefit.  B.  He leases his land out for big money to the city boys from up north and makes more than what he would working his ground.  or C. it is shit ground that won't yield much and CRP is more profitable.  

Judging by your avatar, your opinion of CRP ground may be a bit biased and I have a feeling you have lost some prime hunting ground to those "damn greedy farmers"  (I know, pheasants and quail are pretty much non existent around here these days....nothing like how it used to be.  I miss it)
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Originally Posted By sanunan:
Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By Staggunner:
The farm lobby does have an effect yes.  But food is a strategic weapon.  That is the reason all governments meddle in agriculture.  Almost every

country on earth has had famine except us.  US farmers can compete with any farmer anywhere in the world, but we cannot compete with foreign

treasuries.  Every, and I mean every, nation subsidizes their farmers more than the US.  We have by far the cheapest food in the 1st world.  We are fat

and happy, but still bitch.  Be careful what you wish for, food is not steel, autos, or textiles we can run overseas with impunity.



 

I will agree that food production is a strategic resource that needs to be protected and should fall appropriately under the commerce clause.  Ethanol does not effectively protect that resource long term.

We had a great program in place to protect that resource called CRP.  CRP was wonderful, it helped keep farmers in business, protected the soil, and as a side benefit helped produce natural habitat .  Farmers tilling every single scrap of ground to put in crop production will give us another dust bowl.  Contour farming isn't enough to stave off soil erosion, especially during drought.  You need fence rows and water breaks for that.  This already happened once after WW1...farmers seriously can't be that short cited.


So you are OK with the .gov paying farmers to NOT work and just throw CRP on half their ground, but ethanol mandates are the devil? At least they create an industry and provide actual jobs to many folks in many different arenas.

And your assertion is wrong.....farmers have been planting every scrap of ground around here for decades and the ground is no worse off.  May be different in other parts of the country, but I don't live there so I can't really speak about that.  The only way you would or will find CRP is if A. the farmer is a hunter and doing it for his own benefit.  B.  He leases his land out for big money to the city boys from up north and makes more than what he would working his ground.  or C. it is shit ground that won't yield much and CRP is more profitable.  

Judging by your avatar, your opinion of CRP ground may be a bit biased and I have a feeling you have lost some prime hunting ground to those "damn greedy farmers"  (I know, pheasants and quail are pretty much non existent around here these days....nothing like how it used to be.  I miss it)

Come out to eastern NE sometime, SD, KS, etc... and tell me there isn't a top soil issue, watch it blow across the roads...how quickly you forget about the dust bowl.  Also IL is in the green belt...soil erosion is not nearly the same concern as in western states where drought resistant grasses are essential to prevent erosion.

I do lament over the loss of habitat, to say otherwise would be incorrect but to be fair I would rather hunt grouse.  However it is not my primary reason for disliking ethanol and promoting CRP.  There is no strategic need for ethanol and it actuall damages the strategic need for a healthy food supply.  CRP keeps that ability in place and helps sustain a health food supply.

If you have a better solution to keep soil erosion down in drought prone areas I am all ears?
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 4:05:36 PM EDT
Anything that Fiendstein or the Demoroaches support, or propose, must be viewed with the utmost suspicion.

Something is up here as usual.
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