Quoted: 4 MEN, NOT JUST 1

...and the actual Commander still repeatedly denied their request.

Quoted: Zarathustra1, let me ask you something. If you were in combat would you fight harder or work harder towards accomplishing the mission if you knew you would not be left behind or would you fight harder if you knew you would be deserted if you so much as became seperated from your unit?

Look, of course I would fight harder knowing I would never be left behind, nor would I ever desire to leave another behind.  I was just asking if it was a wise decision to sacrifice the 2 Delta guys.  I never said no rescue should be attempted.

This issue is straying into overly simplified and exagerated examples.

Its a fact you seem to wanna leave out though.  In your fiscally sound military, would you sacrifice 2 men for 4?  The millions that it took to train those four men.

True he denied their request, but a short time later he let the choose their destiny.

Lets not forget, Gordon and Shughart were providing counter-sniper coverage.  However, with the battle in full scale, an M-14/21 and a surpressed XM-177E2 arent doing anything that an M-134 cant.

Quoted: Quoted: Leave no man behind Well, how many men would you sacrifice to save one?  I agree with not leaving men behind, but there are limits.  Not leaving anyone behind is not the overall goal of an operation. If you knew it would cost 15 lives to save one man who was left behind, you would order it?  What if it would cost 150 men?  What if it would cost the entire operation's success?  There are limits, and Commanders must make decisions not based totally on emotion or on a creed.

1) Mission first, ALWAYS.

2) A creed is your life, ask a Ranger.

3) Leaving no man behind is NOT a emotional response, it is a mandate.

4) They did it because the pilot would have given his life and the life of his crew to rescue them if the tables were turned.

5) No offense, but to understand the mindset, you have to wear the uniform of your country and depend on those to your left and right for your very life and be willing to lay yours down for them as they would for you. No other profession, not even public safety, can compare.  

I really am not trying to beat my chest on this but there is no way that anything can compare. Comeraderie, sure.  Love, without a doubt.

I was just curious, and the Hive has spoken.

Thanks for all the responses.

Quoted: Its a fact you seem to wanna leave out though.  In your fiscally sound military, would you sacrifice 2 men for 4?  The millions that it took to train those four men. True he denied their request, but a short time later he let the choose their destiny. Lets not forget, Gordon and Shughart were providing counter-sniper coverage.  However, with the battle in full scale, an M-14/21 and a surpressed XM-177E2 arent doing anything that an M-134 cant.

+1

If the concern is purely fiscal why consider risking a multi million dollar aircraft and crew to rescue one man, it's done because that one man would risk his all to save that crew.

let them go

h/w, i would have denied blackburn's return

I am a Commander of an Airborne Company and every situation is different but you should never let a soldier be captured as long as you have the resources to recover them. There are many more situations that show that we in the US military uphold this philosophy: Neil Roberts, Ernie Savage… Perhaps if you have never worn a uniform and had to trust someone else with your life than you may not understand. I am not trying to be exclusionary but being in the military or cop or firefighter is a brotherhood and those that are not trusted don’t stay in.
It is not about balancing numbers (i.e. I’ll trade x soldiers for y pilots). It is about understanding that your comrades will make every effort possible to return you home whether it is alive or something to give your next of kin to bury.
  Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that it is an officer’s responsibility to notify the next of kin. That isn’t exactly true. I believe the policy is that the Casualty Notification Officer must be at least an E-7. But that person doesn’t necessarily come from the same post or even unit from the injured/deceased. They just come from a duty roster from the post closest to the next of kin. Since most of the casualty’s unit is deployed then the Notification Team usually comes from at best a Rear D person from the unit with limited knowledge of the decisions that led to the death. At worst they know nothing other than the address of the next of kin. I have been a Unit Representative for a funeral. I have never had a more difficult job. The commander of the injured/ deceased will write to the family, but because of operational concerns may not be able to provide many details.  As soon as operationally possible yes the commander will visit the family to discuss matters
  Before thinking about this any further consider two sets of parents/ next of kin. One is told your son died trying to rescue a fellow soldier. The other is told we don’t have any remains to give you because we made no attempt to rescue you loved one—It was deemed too risky. If it were my son I would rather not hear either but would prefer to hear the first.
Just one man’s opinion.

Quoted: Quoted: Leave no man behind Well, how many men would you sacrifice to save one?  I agree with not leaving men behind, but there are limits.  Not leaving anyone behind is not the overall goal of an operation. If you knew it would cost 15 lives to save one man who was left behind, you would order it?  What if it would cost 150 men?  What if it would cost the entire operation's success?  There are limits, and Commanders must make decisions not based totally on emotion or on a creed.

Sure can tell you never spent any time in the US Military asking such a stupid question & having such stupid comments.

It's part of the bond that hold men together under extreme stress.

A bond formed under combat is thicker than blood.

We can rationalize all the reasons why or why not but it is instilled in them that no one gets left behind.

I have a good friend who was a USAF PJ & fast roped in that day with Delta & ended up getting shot several times & loosing his oldest daughters Godfather.

Never ever leave anybody behind & people like the looser who started this thread can't understand why and is trying to rationalize the fact that so many would willingly go into hell to try and save so few knowing they more than likely were dead men walking.

It's something those that have never been there will never ever understand.

Quoted: I have a good friend who was a USAF PJ & fast roped in that day with Delta & ended up getting shot several times & loosing his oldest daughters Godfather. Never ever leave anybody behind & people like the looser who started this thread can't understand why and is trying to rationalize the fact that so many would willingly go into hell to try and save so few knowing they more than likely were dead men walking. It's something those that have never been there will never ever understand.

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Quoted: There was a documentary about a downed pilot and his ?navigator in Vietnam.  Something like 18 men died trying to save one of the crewmen.  In the end a Navy SEAL went in by sampan and rescued him.  It is one characteristic of the U.S. military that separates it from the rest of the world:  they will do what they can to save their men.  At least from what I've read.

If it is the same story I am thinking of, it was Lt. Col Iceal Hamilton. I know of at least two books about the rescue: Bat 21 and the Real Rescue of Bat 21. There was also a movie about the rescue, Bat 21. The book and movie do not go into all the details of the rescue, they were more from the perspective of Lt. Col. Hamilton. . Both were pretty good.

The second book painted the overall picture of all the events during the rescue. Including a major offensive by the North Vietnamese.

Quoted: I was just asking if it was a wise decision to sacrifice the 2 Delta guys.

If one must ask, no answer could suffice.
BTW, those two sacrificed themselves... No commander gave them an order or twisted their arms, they volunteered.

For anyone who doesn't know, both Shughart and Gordon won the Medal Of Honor for their acts of bravery.

Way to go lads. Godspeed.

Quoted: Quoted: 4 MEN, NOT JUST 1 ...and the actual Commander still repeatedly denied their request.

For the same reason you can't send a medivac into a red hot LZ. You will be worse off if you have another helo down - sometimes the risks far outweigh the benefits. It not just the men and the machines, it's the entire process of what ensues after a bird goes down in a hostile zone.

Quoted: h/w, i would have denied blackburn's return

It took up valuable resources and complicated an already compromised mission.
Absolutely.

But Blackburn's fall happened very early, before any other casualties or crashes.
So it's importance relative to the rest of the events was proportionally higher. Had it happened later, after there were numerous casualties including KIAs, it's extremely doubful he would have gotten evac'd. Considering he survived, lucky for him.

But as the commander on the ground I would have said no to an immediate evac also.

Quoted: Sure can tell you never spent any time in the US Military asking such a stupid question & having such stupid comments. It's part of the bond that hold men together under extreme stress. A bond formed under combat is thicker than blood.

Calm down, calm down, I was in the Navy for 5 years.  I understand camaraderie perfectly well.  No need to get ugly.

I never said I would not have attempted a rescue.  I simply would not have accepted the 2 Delta guys’ request to go in in that specific situation, which is in fact what the commander did; he denied their request.  I suppose he is stupid for making that call right?

My question was simply about allowing them to go into a situation where their survival was highly questionable, as were the chances of them actually rescuing anyone.

What they did was certainly deserving of a CMOH.  It is actually a textbook case of actions deserving a CMOH.  I simply see it from a command perspective as a bad call to have let them go in.

Had they not been killed, they certainly would have been captured themselves given the odds they were up against.  Then you have 2 more people in need of rescue.

ETA: Trust me, I get a lump in my throat every time I see that scene where they request to go in.  That was truly above and beyond.

Shughart and Gordon were in fact left behind. They were NCO's. The decision was not theirs to make regardless of how strongly they requested to go in. Gen. Garrison made the decision to make no decision. He allowed these two men who were in the heat of the fight and filled with emotion make the decision for him. Because of that, they were left to rescue the unrescuable. They were left to defend the undefendable. They were left to die and be mutilated and dragged through the filthy streets by those savages. And they got away with it.


That's no way to spend the lives of our finest men. Generals get paid to make the hard decisions. Damned if you do, damned if you don't comes with the stars. Garrison failed in his duty.

If I knew they were absolutely doomed by going, NO, I would deny the insertion.  It woudl accomplish nothing but cost two more lives.  But I do not believe you can question a leader's decision like this after the fact.  Hindsight and sitting on the sidelines finds it too easy to criticise.  Besides, although things seemed bleak, I do not believe at the time of the insertion, they absolutely knew the ground teams were not going to make it there.

Andwhile we have lots of troops and toys not too far away, we should go back and level Mogadishu anyway.  Aidid's son needs some attention anyway.  I was not there but a friend of mine just left there days before those events took place.  With the desecration of the fallen soldiers, my friend was an absolute basket case.  His reactions alone are enough justification IMHO to go back for round 2.

Quoted: Shughart and Gordon were in fact left behind. They were NCO's. The decision was not theirs to make regardless of how strongly they requested to go in. Gen. Garrison made the decision to make no decision. He allowed these two men who were in the heat of the fight and filled with emotion make the decision for him. Because of that, they were left to rescue the unrescuable. They were left to defend the undefendable. They were left to die and be mutilated and dragged through the filthy streets by those savages. And they got away with it. That's no way to spend the lives of our finest men. Generals get paid to make the hard decisions. Damned if you do, damned if you don't comes with the stars. Garrison failed in his duty.

Never been in the military, but I personally find it ironic that Garrison didn't want to risk another chopper but he was willing to risk/sacrifice 2 highly Delta operators.

Quoted: Quoted: Shughart and Gordon were in fact left behind. They were NCO's. The decision was not theirs to make regardless of how strongly they requested to go in. Gen. Garrison made the decision to make no decision. He allowed these two men who were in the heat of the fight and filled with emotion make the decision for him. Because of that, they were left to rescue the unrescuable. They were left to defend the undefendable. They were left to die and be mutilated and dragged through the filthy streets by those savages. And they got away with it. That's no way to spend the lives of our finest men. Generals get paid to make the hard decisions. Damned if you do, damned if you don't comes with the stars. Garrison failed in his duty. Never been in the military, but I personally find it ironic that Garrison didn't want to risk another chopper but he was willing to risk/sacrifice 2 highly Delta operators.

Thats because downed helicopters are more visible to the public HERE than,

"in other news, two American soldiers were killed and several wounded in Mogadushu last night..."

Quoted: If you were the Commander during the Black Hawk Down situation in Somalia, would you have allowed Shughart and Gordon to go down to the black hawk knowing they would be isolated and would surly die? Financially and logistically speaking, it is cheaper to train one pilot than it is to train 2 Delta Operators.  It is "easier" overall to lose one pilot as opposed to 2 Delta Operators.  The 2 Delta guys were more valuable overall in the situation than the downed pilot. I would have denied their request unless there were other units in the area that could have backed them up. It was a very heroic thing they did, and they had a personal desire to save the pilot, but as the Commander, I would have seen them as too valuable to sacrifice to a hopeless cause--saving the one pilot from 30-40 armed Somalis. What would you all have done as the Commander?

I am glad that you aren't in my Army then.

And if you want to base it on something as cold as cost, remember that CWO Durrant wasn't just a UH60 pilot.  He too was a member of the Special Operations community.  The 160th SOAR is not just another aviation unit. They are the Army's air contribution to SOCOM.

I say leave my ass behind, and come back for my body if you can later so you don't get killed trying to rescue me, but I hope to God that I'd do everything within my power to get my buddies out.

.