Quoted: Quoted: They are maintenance hogs.  The cost to repair is extreme, and you will be taking out a second, and a third on your house to pay for stuff to fix it.   Nah, I don't borrow money. I'm just going to look at it. I may end up with a new toyota.

If you owned or had a friend who owned a Brit bike you would know what I mean when I say: Lucas Electrics. That says it all.

I'm happier with my Rubicon Unlimited. LR will never get another time out of my pocket. Now, if I
could only get rid of the huge oil leak spots in my garage from the LR's.

LR = POS IMHO

Quoted: I'm happier with my Rubicon Unlimited. LR will never get another time out of my pocket. Now, if I could only get rid of the huge oil leak spots in my garage from the LR's. LR = POS IMHO photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=40221

Thst looks nice, good color too.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm happier with my Rubicon Unlimited. LR will never get another time out of my pocket. Now, if I could only get rid of the huge oil leak spots in my garage from the LR's. LR = POS IMHO photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=40221 Thst looks nice, good color too.

I say go with that!

Quoted: Quoted: I'm happier with my Rubicon Unlimited. LR will never get another time out of my pocket. Now, if I could only get rid of the huge oil leak spots in my garage from the LR's. LR = POS IMHO photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=40221 Thst looks nice, good color too.

Thanks, I bought it as a weekend toy, but I liked it so much I got ride of my little covertable and I now
drive it full time. All my cars fit in the garage now. Woohoo!
Gas mileage on the unlimited sucks, but WHO CARES!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm happier with my Rubicon Unlimited. LR will never get another time out of my pocket. Now, if I could only get rid of the huge oil leak spots in my garage from the LR's. LR = POS IMHO photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=40221 Thst looks nice, good color too. I say go with that!

No way, karma is a bitch

Think of it as a British Duece and a half or Gamma Goat. Something you don't see everyday. Paint it desert pink. What would James Bond drive? Get it! You know you want it!!!!!! To hell with the nay-sayers!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They are maintenance hogs.  The cost to repair is extreme, and you will be taking out a second, and a third on your house to pay for stuff to fix it.   Nah, I don't borrow money. I'm just going to look at it. I may end up with a new toyota. If you owned or had a friend who owned a Brit bike you would know what I mean when I say: Lucas Electrics. That says it all.

Except  the  Defenders (along with the rest of the later LR lineup) have Bosch electrics.  Nice try.

CW

Quoted: I'm happier with my Rubicon Unlimited. LR will never get another time out of my pocket. Now, if I could only get rid of the huge oil leak spots in my garage from the LR's. LR = POS IMHO photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=40221

How pretty...

CW

Quoted: Quoted: I can tell you that used Discoverys without engine problems (fuel pump comes to mind) are difficult to find (at least here).  They are more expensive to repair as well BUT... The defender 90 series is pretty bad ass. +1,000,000 They are expensive to fix,  have typical british quality control problems.  I've had several friends with them,  owned one myself for about three months and have two neighbors with them.   Generally decent "Base" i.e. the drivetrain and stuff but *ENDLESS* little other problems like mirrors going out,  lights shorting out,  rattles,  loose A/C vents,  reverse lights won't go  off.  Endlessly.  And they are pretty damn expensive to fix.  Our local rover dealer is hella slow getting parts. Get a Land Cruiser,  better truck, more reliable etc.  There's a reason you see the pictures from Afghanistan Special Forces troops in Tacomas and stuff.  Toyota and Nissan and Isuzu pretty much own the offroad market in the undeveloped world cause their trucks can take it. You'll get a much better deal out of an 80 series land cruiser than a defender.  I will give the defender points for looking cool though....

You ever stop to think that maybe parts are a lot cheaper?

CW

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They are maintenance hogs.  The cost to repair is extreme, and you will be taking out a second, and a third on your house to pay for stuff to fix it.   Nah, I don't borrow money. I'm just going to look at it. I may end up with a new toyota. If you owned or had a friend who owned a Brit bike you would know what I mean when I say: Lucas Electrics. That says it all. Except  the  Defenders (along with the rest of the later LR lineup) have Bosch electrics.  Nice try. CW

Oh, OK. Disregard what I said. Carry on.

Quoted: Personally for 32K you could get a brand new 0 miles Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, plus a lift kit and bigger tires. There's no way in hell the Defender 90 has anything on the Rubicon as far as off-road ability. Rubicons bone stock have 31" Mud terrains, lockers front and rear, Dana 44's front and rear and a 4:1 transfer case. Don't get me wrong, I think Defender 90's are cool, but I wouldn't pay 32K for one that's 8 years old when you can get a 2005 Rubicon for about $26K.

Owning both, the Rubicon is a wannabe Defender. A good truck, and second to nothing made by any factory anywhere except for the H1 and the Defender90/110. But the Defender can eat the Rubicon for lunch, and is more agile than a H1. But, both a Defender and a H1 can sit three wheels on the ground and one on top of a fire hydrant. A rubicon needs to have linkage disconnected before it can do that.

I own the 2005 Rubicon only because I can't buy a NAS 2005 Defender. If I could, I would. The production of the Defenders has not been beancountered to death like the Discovery.

The quality issues all appeared after the Rover line was sold by BMW to Ford. A 95/96 Rover is a gem. A 2004/05 Rover Discovery is an exercise in american cost cutting accountants trying to increase the profit margin on a Discovery, with terrible results. Thankfully the bean counters were kept at a long distance form the new Range Rover Sport.

Th

As said before very cool looking crap
a friend had a 95 i belie ve spent more time on a tow truck going to Omaha to the dealer than on any trail
That said none of my latest GMs have been real gems either

Quoted: Owning both, the Rubicon is a wannabe Defender. A good truck, and second to nothing made by any factory anywhere except for the H1 and the Defender90/110. But the Defender can eat the Rubicon for lunch, and is more agile than a H1. But, both a Defender and a H1 can sit three wheels on the ground and one on top of a fire hydrant. A rubicon needs to have linkage disconnected before it can do that.

Do the H1 and D90 have active suspensions?  As a daily driver, a 4WD that can park on a fire hydrant like you describe will drive like a snake on the highway unless it has active suspension or anti-sway bars.  I wouldn't mind at all having to disconnect the sway bars to go off road, but I would have to every-day drive any of the vehicles being debated.  I mean I couldn't keep a D90 or a Rubicon in the garage at home while I drive something else to work--how well it drives matters a lot to me.  

That's pretty damn high for a 10 y/o vehicle.  

I agree that a new rubicon would be a better decision.  

Landcruisers own Australia.

I would go to the outback in a Toyota...or maybe a Nissan.

Reliability matters 100% here, cos if u break down, there is a BIG chance you can die.

Everyone here takes Landcruisers to go 4wding in.  VERY few Jeeps and Land Rovers

Quoted: Our 85th(I think) Ranger division has Defenders with TD-5's..... How many of the above mentioned vehicles have you seen in combat use???

RSOVs were adopted well prior to the TD5 – almost certain they are 200TDIs

By volume, 461series Gwagens are likely the most widely adopted utility platform – Marines (LFAV), Canada, most Euro militaries, etc. Rovers were adopted by the Brits, Dutch Marines and Norwegian (due to NCS force commitments and close operational ties) – tho Jordan and other countries have small numbers in service. Basically stock Toyota pickups were acquired for operators in Afghanistan. They performed well, but they were selected more for their ubiquity in theatre than any other reason. Militaries choose things for various reasons, not always due to optimal performance.
 
Ive got no dog in this fight - owned Cruisers and Rovers, and plenty of other trucks - Currently a 100 and a GX470, have a couple of Series Land Rovers as well. Never owned a Defender, but am in them often. They all have weak spots. All the above vehicles are more or less capable offroad. Nothing does everything well. Few are as capable as it needs to be - stock - and little can make up for bad driving and poor decisions.  But good driving can make marginal vehicles work.

Overall The Defender will have more reliability issues, even if its been well maintained, than a Toyota of similar age and use. But they hardly suffer from depreciation, and there is the mystique of the Land Rover marque. Question you need to answer, is it worth $32k - it may be. You can find very good examples out there for a good chunk less than that - but this may be an exceptional example. Regardless I'd have a COMPETENT Land Rover or, barring that local, a good Brit Service shop check it over, even if you are mechanically inclined.

Beyond all the NASCAR like brand bashing, its a decent utility truck. Check it out and see what you think. As efxguy points outs the 5.0 isnt stock, it may or may not be an issue. Could have been swapped in because the original threw it in - not unknown to happen, even at low miles. The additional grunt may expose driveline weaknesses offroad – snap. Dealer service will likely not be an option, but that may be a good thing. They are loud, a little cramped, dont drive particularly well, cant keep water out or oil in, the electrics (esp engine mgt) are suspect, and are prone to corrosion - just lots of steel in places where water and mud can collect. Defenders materials (the steel and aluminum in particular) don’t seem nearly as good as the stuff from the 60s – designs not much different – and you see lots of corrosion in both - but the post series trucks , inc Defenders, seem more prone. Plastics and fabrics are better tho.

Check Pirate4x4.com (Land Rover section), East Coast Rover, Great Basin Rover, Bill Burkes website (offroad instructor who digs Rovers), and perhaps Discoweb.org. That will give you  a decent overview of what you are getting into.

Interesting to note, Tom Sheppard - Land Rover poster boy and Expedition Vehicle innovator has utilized Land Rovers nearly exclusively. He lead the first unsupported crossing of the Sahara by vehicle and other dangerous expedition work. His current vehicle of choice in North Africa is a Gwagen. I'm sure he keeps a stock of wheel bearings – all platforms have issues.

Edited to add - The Rubicon is a great truck, but I'd find a secretary who got tired of the wind buffeting and let her eat the depreciation. Defenders have done well here - but that may change if Ford decides the next-gen Defender should come stateside.

Luck
Alac

Found it:

Currently there are 71 RSOVs (Ranger Special Operational Vehicles) deployed with the 1st , 2nd, 3rd Battalions of the 75th Infantry Regiment (RANGERS). Here are the particulars:

The 75th Ranger Regiment, composed of three Ranger battalions, is the premier light-infantry unit of the United States Army. Headquartered at Fort Benning, Ga., the 75th Ranger Regiment’s mission is to plan and conduct special missions in support of U.S. policy and objectives. The three Ranger battalions that comprise the 75th Ranger Regiment are geographically dispersed. Their locations are:

lst Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, Hunter Army Airfield, Ga.
2nd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, Fort Lewis, Wash.
3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, Fort Benning, Ga.

Most of the 71 1991 Defender 110s are configured as "Gunships" (shown above) with about a dozen or so configured for either special communications vehicles or ambulances. In addition, just prior to the outbreak of the Iraqi invasion, we delivered 175 Defender 110s to "Ottokar" in Turkey  for delivery to US special forces.

Lemme be not the first to say that the D90 is a sugary sweet lookin' off road vehicle.  The look exudes a very simple off road class that few vehicles do........BUT all the serious folks I know ( including my dad who has test driven just about everything with 4 wheels and then some ) dislike the lack of power and the rahter poor transmission that the D90 offers.....parts breakage is above the norm and comfort is seriously lacking....I don't think the D90 even has adjustable seats for God's sakes!!!!  Now, plus one for simplicity but c'mon!!!!

 If you want a vehicle that you can work on and modify to your heart's content I SERIOUSLY suggest that you consider the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon.

PROVEN 4.0 liter inline six that has been around forever ( once as the 258 Carb. and later as the 250 FI )
PROVEN Geartrag 6 speed tranny ( from the Dodge Viper and  current Dodge Trucks...if it can handle Viper Torque..... )
PROVEN New Process 241 Tranfer Case
PROVEN DANA 44 Axels with Air Lockers Front and Rear....now this is a bit of a lie....the actual front axel is a DANA 44 Ring and Pinion and Housing but with Dana 30 tubes and axel shafts and knuckles.....which is a bitch except for the fact that Superior Axel offers D30 upgrades that'll square you away for not too much money.
AMERICAN MADE....Jeeps are still assembled in Ohio.  The engine is US and the Trans, while NOT American is made by Krauts.


 The super plus about the Jeep is that like the 1911...EVERONE MAKES TWO OF EVERYTHING FOR IT.....and then some.

Check this out: American Expeditionary Vehicles

Land Rover has the lowest customer satisfaction rating of all the car manufacturers. Expect many problems and low resale value.

I'd recommend a Toyota, which has the highest customer satisfaction rating and great resale value.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I can tell you that used Discoverys without engine problems (fuel pump comes to mind) are difficult to find (at least here).  They are more expensive to repair as well BUT... The defender 90 series is pretty bad ass. +1,000,000 They are expensive to fix,  have typical british quality control problems.  I've had several friends with them,  owned one myself for about three months and have two neighbors with them.   Generally decent "Base" i.e. the drivetrain and stuff but *ENDLESS* little other problems like mirrors going out,  lights shorting out,  rattles,  loose A/C vents,  reverse lights won't go  off.  Endlessly.  And they are pretty damn expensive to fix.  Our local rover dealer is hella slow getting parts. Get a Land Cruiser,  better truck, more reliable etc.  There's a reason you see the pictures from Afghanistan Special Forces troops in Tacomas and stuff.  Toyota and Nissan and Isuzu pretty much own the offroad market in the undeveloped world cause their trucks can take it. You'll get a much better deal out of an 80 series land cruiser than a defender.  I will give the defender points for looking cool though.... You ever stop to think that maybe parts are a lot cheaper? CW

I did...and they aren't.  Rovers are expensive to fix...period.
go with a landcruiser FJ40 for weekend fun...yrs. 1990 and above if you appreciate some of the creature comforts.
Personally, I'm looking to pick up a sweet FJ40 '72 model for 5,400.  Just my opinion

My wife's business assoc. has a Defender and 2 other LRs.  They are in a LR club in MN.  They do most of their own repairs (which are numerous) so it saves them money.  If you are mechanically inclined, then you are probably good to go.  If you get all your work done at the shop, then you will pay mucho dinero.  FWIW, my wife drives a LR Discovery and I love it.  She was a former Jeep Wrangler owner (3 in a row) and never will go back after driving a LR.

Quoted: I've owned two. Yes, I was a idiot twice. I describe them as the best looking piece of shit on the road. Bought both new. Biggest mistake I've ever made. I have two friends and one neighbor that share my view. 2000 Discovery II 2001 Range Rover TEH SUCK!

A big +1

I had a Range Rover & it was the biggest POS. It looks beautiful, but it's a very, very, very problematic car. Not worth the money.

Make sure they Defender your getting has some type of warranty, because a used LR is gonna be a pain in the ass. Just my 2 cents.

The notion that a Land Rover can come anywhere close to a Land Cruiser in off-road capability is just ridiculous and shows a lack of firsthand experience at serious, gnarly rockcrawling (I'm not talking about driving on dusty roads and cheeseball obstacles that my fiancés turbo beetle could take a crack at, regardless of what continent it might be in).

Take your Land Rovers to Moab and hopefully an FJ, a Jeep or a Tacoma will come along to haul your broken down, stuck ass out of the gnarl.

Unless you just drive it around on the strip to the bars and restaurants like all the Rovers and H2's that show up there.

Quoted: Quoted: Best 4x4 ever All others are judged against the Land-Rover and nothing else comes close That's all I have to say Mark You have a bias! ANdy

No , I have a Land Rover , and a proper one at that.




It's a 2.5TD. Not the fastest thing in the world but it was never meant to be, but it'll go anywhere...and get there.
I bought this from a guy at work who has more money than sense (his wife won £1.8 mil on the lottery). He bought it for £3000 and ran it out of oil. I bought it off him for £500 and spent £600 on a new crankshaft and rods etc. Bargain off the century.
These are the real land rovers, not the Range Rover or Discovery.

Mark

If you're looking for something to actually use for serious offroad work get a jeep TJ and make some modifications.

I am perpetually amused that there are those who claim that the Land Rover is out-classed by vehicle X in the off-road stakes.

Defenders may not be far and away the best, I'm no expert in offroading but I figure the Army can't be too far wrong, but I'm sure that a good driver can get it to go pretty much anywhere that any other vehicle can go.

NTM

Quoted: I am perpetually amused that there are those who claim that the Land Rover is out-classed by vehicle X in the off-road stakes. Defenders may not be far and away the best, I'm no expert in offroading but I figure the Army can't be too far wrong, but I'm sure that a good driver can get it to go pretty much anywhere that any other vehicle can go. NTM

You're in Cali...go check out the Rubicon trail and let us know how many Land Rovers you see.

ETA: You never know...you might see one.  But you will mostly see more capable vehicles.

PROVEN 4.0 liter inline six that has been around forever ( once as the 258 Carb. and later as the 250 FI ) Rover engine based on Buick 215 V8, circa 1958, the firing order should look familiar to some 18436572 PROVEN Geartrag 6 speed tranny ( from the Dodge Viper and  current Dodge Trucks...if it can handle Viper Torque..... )  R380 and later proven for years and years, virtually unchanged PROVEN New Process 241 Tranfer Case Proven LT230 for years, virtually unchanged other than some gear pitch changes for noise PROVEN DANA 44 Axels with Air Lockers Front and Rear....now this is a bit of a lie....the actual front axel is a DANA 44 Ring and Pinion and Housing but with Dana 30 tubes and axel shafts and knuckles.....which is a bitch except for the fact that Superior Axel offers D30 upgrades that'll square you away for not too much money. No need to upgrade anything here, have't changed anything in years and years, and THEIR FULL FLOATING - if you break and axle your wheel's not going to come off with what's left of the axle AMERICAN MADE....Jeeps are still assembled in Ohio.  The engine is US and the Trans, while NOT American is made by Krauts.  Land Rovers are assembled in the UK, and have been under the ownership of the Ford Motor Company since 2000.  Lots of the current model parts are being sourced and supplied right here in the US as well

If there wasn't a Jeep, there never would have been any Land Rovers, both are great trucks - it just depends on what you want, and what makes you happy.

Quoted: PROVEN Geartrag 6 speed tranny ( from the Dodge Viper and  current Dodge Trucks...if it can handle Viper Torque..... )

Rubicon 6 spd box is the NSG370 - not the Getrag 238.

Quoted: The notion that a Land Rover can come anywhere close to a Land Cruiser in off-road capability is just ridiculous and shows a lack of firsthand experience at serious, gnarly rockcrawling...Take your Land Rovers to Moab and hopefully an FJ, a Jeep or a Tacoma will come along to haul your broken down, stuck ass out of the gnarl.

Next time I run into Bill Burke at Pritchett or any of the Rover guys at the Chili challenge, I'll let them know they should beat feet out before their rigs crap out on them. You have been to Moab at easter havnt you? Did you miss the Rovers? Most carnage Ive seen at potato salad hill is SWB Jeeps.

Edited to add - You realize there are about 20 vids Roverphiles can get that show throngs of Defendernewbs  rolling Rubicon, Dusy Ershim, Indepence Trail, etc - without any difficulty.    The reason you may not have seen many around the Rubicon (Im only assuming you've been there) is there arent nearly as many around.

Im no Defender guy, but theres no doubt that stock they are capable vehicles. With just a few mods, they'll do about any slick rock trail w/o difficulty.

Luck
Alac

Quoted: Quoted: PROVEN Geartrag 6 speed tranny ( from the Dodge Viper and  current Dodge Trucks...if it can handle Viper Torque..... ) Rubicon 6 spd box is the NSG370 - not the Getrag 238. Quoted: The notion that a Land Rover can come anywhere close to a Land Cruiser in off-road capability is just ridiculous and shows a lack of firsthand experience at serious, gnarly rockcrawling...Take your Land Rovers to Moab and hopefully an FJ, a Jeep or a Tacoma will come along to haul your broken down, stuck ass out of the gnarl. Next time I run into Bill Burke at Pritchett or any of the Rover guys at the Chili challenge, I'll let them know they should beat feet out before their rigs crap out on them. You have been to Moab at easter havnt you? Did you miss the Rovers? Most carnage Ive seen at potato salad hill is SWB Jeeps. Edited to add - You realize there are about 20 vids Roverphiles can get that show throngs of Defendernewbs  rolling Rubicon, Dusy Ershim, Indepence Trail, etc - without any difficulty.    The reason you may not have seen many around the Rubicon (Im only assuming you've been there) is there arent nearly as many around. Im no Defender guy, but theres no doubt that stock they are capable vehicles. With just a few mods, they'll do about any slick rock trail w/o difficulty. Luck Alac

OK, I didn't say there weren't ANY.  I had a note in there that said you might see them.
It sounds like we agree that they are far from the most predominant rig on serious trails.  I don't know if you also agree with me that there are many much more capable rigs but that's what I think.

In any event, that Rover Aimless was looking at is not going to do as well as an FJ in Moab (if he were to take it to such a place).
Did you look at that link to a modded FJ for half the price?  Seriously, tell me which one you think is more capable.

ETA: Here's the link so you don't have to dig:  FJ

What do you think?


Additional edit: FWIW I think that if you add enough mods to a vehicle you can get just about anything to take on serious trails.  I don't know if that's a fair measure.  The rig Aimless was looking at is a little different than the seriously modded vehicles you're talking about.  I have a friend who has an Explorer and it's been wheeled on Die-Tryin'.  It's all Jeep underneath though.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I can tell you that used Discoverys without engine problems (fuel pump comes to mind) are difficult to find (at least here).  They are more expensive to repair as well BUT... The defender 90 series is pretty bad ass. +1,000,000 They are expensive to fix,  have typical british quality control problems.  I've had several friends with them,  owned one myself for about three months and have two neighbors with them.   Generally decent "Base" i.e. the drivetrain and stuff but *ENDLESS* little other problems like mirrors going out,  lights shorting out,  rattles,  loose A/C vents,  reverse lights won't go  off.  Endlessly.  And they are pretty damn expensive to fix.  Our local rover dealer is hella slow getting parts. Get a Land Cruiser,  better truck, more reliable etc.  There's a reason you see the pictures from Afghanistan Special Forces troops in Tacomas and stuff.  Toyota and Nissan and Isuzu pretty much own the offroad market in the undeveloped world cause their trucks can take it. You'll get a much better deal out of an 80 series land cruiser than a defender.  I will give the defender points for looking cool though.... You ever stop to think that maybe parts are a lot cheaper? CW I did...and they aren't.  Rovers are expensive to fix...period. go with a landcruiser FJ40 for weekend fun...yrs. 1990 and above if you appreciate some of the creature comforts. Personally, I'm looking to pick up a sweet FJ40 '72 model for 5,400.  Just my opinion

Sorry, I think my point wasn't well made. I meant to say that the reason Toyotas are used a lot in the "underdeveloped" world is that parts are cheap.

Good luck on the FJ40, hope you find one that is relatively rust free. BTW, in 72 Toyota thinned out the frame rail thickness, so make sure that there are no cracks or signs of local buckling.

CW

Quoted: Lemme be not the first to say that the D90 is a sugary sweet lookin' off road vehicle.  The look exudes a very simple off road class that few vehicles do........BUT all the serious folks I know ( including my dad who has test driven just about everything with 4 wheels and then some ) dislike the lack of power and the rahter poor transmission that the D90 offers.....parts breakage is above the norm and comfort is seriously lacking....I don't think the D90 even has adjustable seats for God's sakes!!!!  Now, plus one for simplicity but c'mon!!!!  If you want a vehicle that you can work on and modify to your heart's content I SERIOUSLY suggest that you consider the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. PROVEN 4.0 liter inline six that has been around forever ( once as the 258 Carb. and later as the 250 FI ) PROVEN Geartrag 6 speed tranny ( from the Dodge Viper and  current Dodge Trucks...if it can handle Viper Torque..... ) PROVEN New Process 241 Tranfer Case PROVEN DANA 44 Axels with Air Lockers Front and Rear....now this is a bit of a lie....the actual front axel is a DANA 44 Ring and Pinion and Housing but with Dana 30 tubes and axel shafts and knuckles.....which is a bitch except for the fact that Superior Axel offers D30 upgrades that'll square you away for not too much money. AMERICAN MADE....Jeeps are still assembled in Ohio.  The engine is US and the Trans, while NOT American is made by Krauts.  The super plus about the Jeep is that like the 1911...EVERONE MAKES TWO OF EVERYTHING FOR IT.....and then some. Check this out: American Expeditionary Vehicles

Oooohh, 8 more hp.  1995 D-90=182 hp, 2005 Rubicon=190hp. Plus the Dana 44 is wimpy compared to the LR diff.

CW

Quoted: The notion that a Land Rover can come anywhere close to a Land Cruiser in off-road capability is just ridiculous and shows a lack of firsthand experience at serious, gnarly rockcrawling (I'm not talking about driving on dusty roads and cheeseball obstacles that my fiancés turbo beetle could take a crack at, regardless of what continent it might be in). Take your Land Rovers to Moab and hopefully an FJ, a Jeep or a Tacoma will come along to haul your broken down, stuck ass out of the gnarl. Unless you just drive it around on the strip to the bars and restaurants like all the Rovers and H2's that show up there.

Did you say Moab?















And, if you think the new models are wimpy...



CW

Land Rover owners are soooo damn defensive. I was once a sensitive LR owner, but I was able to
work through my POS denial issues. There's hope for all of you as well.

Just admit it, our friends accross the pond are better at churning out great meat pies than they are
at building autos.

Quoted: Quoted: I am perpetually amused that there are those who claim that the Land Rover is out-classed by vehicle X in the off-road stakes. Defenders may not be far and away the best, I'm no expert in offroading but I figure the Army can't be too far wrong, but I'm sure that a good driver can get it to go pretty much anywhere that any other vehicle can go. NTM You're in Cali...go check out the Rubicon trail and let us know how many Land Rovers you see. ETA: You never know...you might see one.  But you will mostly see more capable vehicles.

I grew up around the Rubicon (El Dorado Hills to be exact) and the reason you didn't see a lot of LR's there is because the hillbillys that live around those parts not only couldn't afford one but didn't know they existed.  As for the recent past and present..







CW

Quoted: The notion that a Land Rover can come anywhere close to a Land Cruiser in off-road capability is just ridiculous and shows a lack of firsthand experience at serious, gnarly rockcrawling (I'm not talking about driving on dusty roads and cheeseball obstacles that my fiancés turbo beetle could take a crack at, regardless of what continent it might be in). Take your Land Rovers to Moab and hopefully an FJ, a Jeep or a Tacoma will come along to haul your broken down, stuck ass out of the gnarl. Unless you just drive it around on the strip to the bars and restaurants like all the Rovers and H2's that show up there.

I think you may be generalizing based on the Discovery as representative of all Rovers, which is about like sayin the Prius is representative of all Toyotas.

The Discovery will do anything a full sized Land Cruiser can do, but the Range Rover and Defender are in a different league. Take off the decorative ground skirts on the Range Rover and you open up the designed angle of attack etc. The owner manual clearly directs you in the proper removal of highway air skirts before rock crawling.

Look at the lug nuts on a Defender. They're the size of semi truck lug nuts, and they're not decorative covers, those are the lug nuts. They're in a different world than anything made by any other builder except the Hummer 1.

And our military knows better than to fasten a parachute to the pintle point on the back of a HMV and push it out of a C-130; it has to ride on a skid. The Brits simply fasten the chute to the pintle on the MOD Defender and push it out. No skid, just truck, and no modifications, stock rear crossmember taking the load. Obviously the HMV is different than the street H1, just as the MOD Defender is not exactly the same as a street Defender, but the two Defenders are much closer than the HMV/H1 are.

And our military knows better than to fasten a parachute to the pintle point on the back of a HMV and push it out of a C-130; it has to ride on a skid. The Brits simply fasten the chute to the pintle on the MOD Defender and push it out. No skid, just truck, and no modifications, stock rear crossmember taking the load. Obviously the HMV is different than the street H1, just as the MOD Defender is not exactly the same as a street Defender, but the two Defenders are much closer than the HMV/H1 are.

The MoD and civvy Land Rovers are essentially the same vehicle. In fact, the Land Rovers the MoD buy these days *are* civvy spec because they retain a higher resale value

Mark

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I am perpetually amused that there are those who claim that the Land Rover is out-classed by vehicle X in the off-road stakes. Defenders may not be far and away the best, I'm no expert in offroading but I figure the Army can't be too far wrong, but I'm sure that a good driver can get it to go pretty much anywhere that any other vehicle can go. NTM You're in Cali...go check out the Rubicon trail and let us know how many Land Rovers you see. ETA: You never know...you might see one.  But you will mostly see more capable vehicles. I grew up around the Rubicon (El Dorado Hills to be exact) and the reason you didn't see a lot of LR's there is because the hillbillys that live around those parts not only couldn't afford one but didn't know they existed.  As for the recent past and present.. www.thelen.org/Rubicon98/PIC00055.jpg www.thelen.org/Rubicon98/PIC00067.jpg www.safarigard.com/D-90/Img_0161_med.jpg CW

Well, I'm going to go back to my idea that if you add enough mods you can crawl just about anything.  Those rigs don't look stock to me (but maybe they are).

I am still convinced that a stock FJ can outdo a stock Rover.  As for mods, I'd still take the FJ because I could probably build it into a better trail rig with less additions (and definitely less money).


BTW: I have done the crack/Golden Spike/Poison Spider (and a few others) in a lowly Tacoma so as cool as it is I'm not sure that is that much measure of off-road excellence.  It certainly isn't something that would stop an FJ.
How about upper proving grounds?

Quoted: Quoted: The notion that a Land Rover can come anywhere close to a Land Cruiser in off-road capability is just ridiculous and shows a lack of firsthand experience at serious, gnarly rockcrawling (I'm not talking about driving on dusty roads and cheeseball obstacles that my fiancés turbo beetle could take a crack at, regardless of what continent it might be in). Take your Land Rovers to Moab and hopefully an FJ, a Jeep or a Tacoma will come along to haul your broken down, stuck ass out of the gnarl. Unless you just drive it around on the strip to the bars and restaurants like all the Rovers and H2's that show up there. I think you may be generalizing based on the Discovery as representative of all Rovers, which is about like sayin the Prius is representative of all Toyotas. The Discovery will do anything a full sized Land Cruiser can do, but the Range Rover and Defender are in a different league. Take off the decorative ground skirts on the Range Rover and you open up the designed angle of attack etc. The owner manual clearly directs you in the proper removal of highway air skirts before rock crawling. Look at the lug nuts on a Defender. They're the size of semi truck lug nuts, and they're not decorative covers, those are the lug nuts. They're in a different world than anything made by any other builder except the Hummer 1. And our military knows better than to fasten a parachute to the pintle point on the back of a HMV and push it out of a C-130; it has to ride on a skid. The Brits simply fasten the chute to the pintle on the MOD Defender and push it out. No skid, just truck, and no modifications, stock rear crossmember taking the load. Obviously the HMV is different than the street H1, just as the MOD Defender is not exactly the same as a street Defender, but the two Defenders are much closer than the HMV/H1 are.

I'm having a hard time believing a Discovery can match an FJ.  Without mods that is.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I am perpetually amused that there are those who claim that the Land Rover is out-classed by vehicle X in the off-road stakes. Defenders may not be far and away the best, I'm no expert in offroading but I figure the Army can't be too far wrong, but I'm sure that a good driver can get it to go pretty much anywhere that any other vehicle can go. NTM You're in Cali...go check out the Rubicon trail and let us know how many Land Rovers you see. ETA: You never know...you might see one.  But you will mostly see more capable vehicles. I grew up around the Rubicon (El Dorado Hills to be exact) and the reason you didn't see a lot of LR's there is because the hillbillys that live around those parts not only couldn't afford one but didn't know they existed.  As for the recent past and present.. www.thelen.org/Rubicon98/PIC00055.jpg www.thelen.org/Rubicon98/PIC00067.jpg www.safarigard.com/D-90/Img_0161_med.jpg CW Well, I'm going to go back to my idea that if you add enough mods you can crawl just about anything.  Those rigs don't look stock to me (but maybe they are). I am still convinced that a stock FJ can outdo a stock Rover.  As for mods, I'd still take the FJ because I could probably build it into a better trail rig with less additions (and definitely less money).

Those rovers (Defender 90 / Series / Defender 90)  look dead stock to me, other than the gear rack on the back end  of the last one. and the rocker panel decal and rear baseloaded antenna on the first one. The rearward flood light was a dealer option.

Quoted: Quoted: Well, I'm going to go back to my idea that if you add enough mods you can crawl just about anything.  Those rigs don't look stock to me (but maybe they are). I am still convinced that a stock FJ can outdo a stock Rover.  As for mods, I'd still take the FJ because I could probably build it into a better trail rig with less additions (and definitely less money). Those rovers (Defender 90 / Series / Defender 90)  look dead stock to me, other than the gear rack on the back end  of the last one. and the rocker panel decal and rear baseloaded antenna on the first one. The rearward flood light was a dealer option.

So what is the stock setup for differentials?  I'd prefer an FJ with front and rear lockers.

ETA: I'll also reiterate that I've only ever seen Rovers as moving roadblocks in Moab, not that I haven't seen them there.

Just a side note: anyone know if a Rover has ever been in the International Rock Crawling Championships?

I'll ask my Toyota and Jeep buddies who compete.  I don't remember seeing any in the published videos or their home videos.

Legend:

I agree to a point - Ive had the pleasure of driving quite a bit of stuff  and regularly wheel my trucks. Older 3 spd FJ40s (Pre mid 70's) have issues - gearing and carb stall amongst other things - Im not going to bore you with the details but head over to Pirate4x4 or IH8MUD and Im sure you will see what I mean. My Series III  109 Rover came stock with a 4 pinion Dana 60 (marginally stronger than most US 60 carriers - but only 24 spline axles), 4.70 gears, 9.00x16s, one of the best T-cases around, fully boxed frame,  - has lousy front axle halfshafts, the Rover diffs are strong enough but open,  a suspect tranny (4spd since inception tho - took the FJ until the mid 70's) anemic engine I4 (78 hp/120 Ftlbs) - but only weighs 3100 lbs. Throw a winch and a Detroit in the back of most Rovers and they can do most any trail around - like most 4x4s. The Rubicon dont really require a Truggy.

Again my point is there a very few trucks out there that wont get the job done when handled right  - and stock Rovers are better than most.  International Rock Crawling Competition - are you talking about UROC? Your pretty well into one off tube buggy trailer queens there - not really stock jobs. I guess I could ask if Jeep or Toyota ever did the Darrian Gap or The Empty Quarter - Rover not only completed them first - but so far, only. Your original post is really off base tho - the reality is theres plenty of basically stock Rovers (Rangies, Discos, Defenders, Series trucks) on all these trails regularly. Quite a few of them driven by folk who honestly dont have much skill - but true for many makes - but they make it around w/o issue. Like all trucks they break. Overall they are capable, reasonably durable, if somewhat unreliable. They exceed FJs in quite a few areas - especially articulation - so its not at all ridiculous. Curious - what do you drive at Moab? EDIT- I should read - Tacoma -im assuming youve got longfields then. Everyone knows Toyo birfs blow

Dont get me wrong I prefer Toyotas - they're my daily drivers. I wouldnt own a post 83 Rover. I dig Cruisers (my next rig will be a SBC or Vortec FJ40 with some wheelbase) but beyond reliability they dont have anything on Rover.  MrClean - if you dig it, and it checks out, educate yourself on the idiosyncrisies and snag it. If you're going to wheel it - know you'll be fine.

Luck
Alac

Quoted: The notion that a Land Rover can come anywhere close to a Land Cruiser in off-road capability is just ridiculous and shows a lack of firsthand experience at serious, gnarly rockcrawling (I'm not talking about driving on dusty roads and cheeseball obstacles that my fiancés turbo beetle could take a crack at, regardless of what continent it might be in). Take your Land Rovers to Moab and hopefully an FJ, a Jeep or a Tacoma will come along to haul your broken down, stuck ass out of the gnarl. Unless you just drive it around on the strip to the bars and restaurants like all the Rovers and H2's that show up there.

Id like to see your fiance's turbo beetle drive on Aussie dusty roads.  I guarentee it will not make it out of the desert roads.  Hell, you dont want to mess around with the outback with any old car.

The landcruiser owns the Outback, no doubt about that.  Take the wrong vehicle and it could mean your life

Quoted: Quoted: The notion that a Land Rover can come anywhere close to a Land Cruiser in off-road capability is just ridiculous and shows a lack of firsthand experience at serious, gnarly rockcrawling (I'm not talking about driving on dusty roads and cheeseball obstacles that my fiancés turbo beetle could take a crack at, regardless of what continent it might be in). Take your Land Rovers to Moab and hopefully an FJ, a Jeep or a Tacoma will come along to haul your broken down, stuck ass out of the gnarl. Unless you just drive it around on the strip to the bars and restaurants like all the Rovers and H2's that show up there. Id like to see your fiance's turbo beetle drive on Aussie dusty roads.  I guarentee it will not make it out of the desert roads.  Hell, you dont want to mess around with the outback with any old car. The landcruiser owns the Outback, no doubt about that.  Take the wrong vehicle and it could mean your life

I believe it, I've wheeled with some guys with very capable FJs.  I was being a little bit facetious poking fun at the Rover (not the Cruiser).
I'm a Toyota guy myself (Tacoma, something like your HiLux) and to make you Aussie-proud I have all kinds of ARB stuff on it.

Quoted: Legend: I agree to a point - Ive had the pleasure of driving quite a bit of stuff  and regularly wheel my trucks. Older 3 spd FJ40s (Pre mid 70's) have issues - gearing and carb stall amongst other things - Im not going to bore you with the details but head over to Pirate4x4 or IH8MUD and Im sure you will see what I mean. My Series III  109 Rover came stock with a 4 pinion Dana 60 (marginally stronger than most US 60 carriers - but only 24 spline axles), 4.70 gears, 9.00x16s, one of the best T-cases around, fully boxed frame,  - has lousy front axle halfshafts, the Rover diffs are strong enough but open,  a suspect tranny (4spd since inception tho - took the FJ until the mid 70's) anemic engine I4 (78 hp/120 Ftlbs) - but only weighs 3100 lbs. Throw a winch and a Detroit in the back of most Rovers and they can do most any trail around - like most 4x4s. The Rubicon dont really require a Truggy. Again my point is there a very few trucks out there that wont get the job done when handled right  - and stock Rovers are better than most.  International Rock Crawling Competition - are you talking about UROC? Your pretty well into one off tube buggy trailer queens there - not really stock jobs. I guess I could ask if Jeep or Toyota ever did the Darrian Gap or The Empty Quarter - Rover not only completed them first - but so far, only. Your original post is really off base tho - the reality is theres plenty of basically stock Rovers (Rangies, Discos, Defenders, Series trucks) on all these trails regularly. Quite a few of them driven by folk who honestly dont have much skill - but true for many makes - but they make it around w/o issue. Like all trucks they break. Overall they are capable, reasonably durable, if somewhat unreliable. They exceed FJs in quite a few areas - especially articulation - so its not at all ridiculous. Curious - what do you drive at Moab? EDIT- I should read - Tacoma -im assuming youve got longfields then. Everyone knows Toyo birfs blow Dont get me wrong I prefer Toyotas - they're my daily drivers. I wouldnt own a post 83 Rover. I dig Cruisers (my next rig will be a SBC or Vortec FJ40 with some wheelbase) but beyond reliability they dont have anything on Rover.  MrClean - if you dig it, and it checks out, educate yourself on the idiosyncrisies and snag it. If you're going to wheel it - know you'll be fine. Luck Alac

OK, but my original post was actually about a much better deal on an FJ (than 96 LR Defender with 44k miles and a 5.0 8 cyl.. The guy is asking $32k cash) and the fact that all the Rovers I've seen in Moab are moving roadblocks.  Both of those are exactly correct as far as I see.