Quoted:

That said, I know plenty of (most formerly Conservative, and a few Orthodox) Rabbis that believe Jesus truly is the Messiah. A kind reference to them would be "Messianic", they would prefer "Completed".

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Your comment may have carried more weight before less educated Jews had you referred simply to those Jews who had decided simply to convert.  By referencing a personal history (not that I would say you have been deceived, attempting to deceive, or otherwise exposed to bogus information) from Conservative, Orthodox (and I would add Reform) Jewish Rabbis who believe Jesus as a messiah, you are crossing a line.

Please, for the benefit of us Jews here who are knowledgeable, please extend the courtesy of your source(s) of information.

Otherwise, please refrain what is typically known within the Jewish community as proselytizing.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter.  



Jewish Ed(ucator)

Email sent (since you are not accepting IM's)

ETA: No response yet to my query, so I'll take a stab at what I think Ed was getting at:

Off the top of my head, I met and fellowshipped with Rabbis @ Beth Messiah and Beth Isreal, (both Messianic Congregations  in northern NJ) after college, along with several more from “Jews for Jesus” in New York City growing up, and most recently from visiting a Messianic Temple here in Milwaukee. IIRC, none of the Rabbis I encountered claimed to be secular Jews before conversion.

I never got a chance to talk to a “real” Rabbi outside of a Messianic congregation.  The closest I got was I was invited to a friend’s house for Passover while in grammar school.

I can try to dig for names of every Rabbi I’ve ever encountered, but I don’t think it would impress you (since they believe Jesus is the Messiah, and therefore in your eyes are no longer Jewish, right? *wink*).  I was simply making the point that they ARE out there.

I can also point to a Baptist reverend that has become Methodist, and an Episcopalian minister that has become Eastern Orthodox, and several seminary students that have become Agnostic, if it makes you feel any better.

Finally: With all due respect, this IS the religious forum, and you’ll note that most everyone is proselytizing in one form or another.  While I meant no offence, nothing you can say will stop me from claiming Jesus as the Jewish Messiah.

Shall we all get back to the topic of the Apocraphya now?

claiming Jesus as the Jewish Messiah.

FMD, maybe you don't understand, this statement is hurtful to a Jew...he is not my Messiah. you can claim him as your messiah, but do not make choices for me. And as far as Messianc Congregations go, they are not well taken in the Jewish community, they are seen as preying on Jews.

Quoted:

Off the top of my head, I met and fellowshipped with Rabbis @ Beth Messiah and Beth Isreal, (both Messianic Congregations in northern NJ) after college, along with several more from “Jews for Jesus” in New York City growing up, and most recently from visiting a Messianic Temple here in Milwaukee. IIRC, none of the Rabbis I encountered claimed to be secular Jews before conversion.

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Your referene to "...both Messianic Congregations in northern NJ)..." and "...most recently from visiting a Messianic Temple here in Milwaukee. IIRC, none of the Rabbis I encountered claimed to be secular Jews before conversion..." both revalidate my previous position.

You are trolling what I will refer to as "crap" and seem to be proliferating a conversion schema for Jews on this site who have seen this @#$%^! before, and will not tollerate it.

****Edited****<va-gunnut>
Jewish Ed(ucated)

****Edited****<va-gunnut>

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Why is this a problem?  Education is one thing, though proliferation of messianic proselytizing is not an issue?

scuba_ed, I'm a little confused by your point in this discussion. You seem to be offended that another member has brought up Jews who have converted to Christianity.

Are you saying that Jews don't convert to Christianity?

Why would it be a suprise if they did? Especially since you converted to the Jewish faith from Christianity.

Maybe I'm just missing something in the previous posts, so correct me if I'm wrong.

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Quite honestly, you are not sensitive to the phenomenon of proselytizing Jews...or...killing them to make them go away, or to spin this off into christian "end-of-times" prophecy for christians.

Certainly, some Jews go the baptismal font...however...and I would request you research, the sensitivity of christian missionaries to the Jews.

The State of Israel does not allow this.

Why, then, would a christian out-reach be approved of in this site?  Sure, I converted to Judaism through a longing for betterment.  Why, then, would you agree that a personal journey become less fractious than a christian strategem?

I understand this you may not realize; nor could you understand the Jewish perspective.

Attached are Q's and A's regarding this...I hope that this, in conjunction with my fellow Jews concern on this subject will serve to enlighten.





Frequently Asked Questions on Missionaries & “Jews for Jesus”
by Scott Hillman, Executive Director of Jews for Judaism


For example: Deception in recruitment - Few Hebrew-Christians tell you up front that that their belief is identical to that of the Baptist Church. The use of the term "Messianic Jew" for example is nothing more than "Newspeak" and an attempt to make their beliefs appear Jewish. Even fewer will tell you that they believe Jesus is G-d and not just Messiah.


Q Are there many Christian missionary groups targeting Jews and how much is being spent on their efforts?

A There are over 900 Christian and Hebrew Christian groups in North America actively involved in missionizing the Jewish people. These groups are currently spending over $250 million per year on these efforts. Jews for Jesus, the best known single ministry to the Jews, spent over $15 million last year.

Q What are the chances that I will be approached by a missionary?

A It is estimated that 4 out of 5 Jews in the United States will be approached at some time by a Christian missionary. This missionary may be a professional or, more likely, a friend, neighbor or colleague.

Q How might I be approached?

A Someone might come to your door, catch you on the street or leave literature in your mailbox. A letter or invitation to a “Jewish cultural” event might be sent to you. A new friend, associate or someone from your neighborhood might invite you to a social gathering.

Q What are some of the tell-tale signs of these groups?

A If someone starts talking about being a “Messianic” or “completed” Jew or claims that a Jew can accept Jesus or, as they sometimes call him, “Yeshua” without giving up Judaism - that you can be a “Jew for Jesus”- then you are speaking with a missionary.

Q What is “Jews for Jesus”?

A Jews for Jesus is a single Christian ministry which attempts to convert Jews to Christianity. The term is often used generically for Jewish converts to Christianity who try to retain some cultural trappings of their Judaism. Leaders of these groups are often ordained Christian ministers who are specifically trained in techniques for converting vulnerable Jews. Members of these groups deceptively use Jewish symbols (such as Stars of David) and language so as to appear Jewish, their goal is to take Jews away from Judaism and to bring them into the Christian Church. Jews for Jesus actually considers itself an arm of the evangelical church.

Q How is the “Hebrew-Christian” missionary movement organized?

A On the local level, much of the “Hebrew-Christian” movement is organized in the form of churches which call themselves “Messianic Synagogues” or housed as separate ministries and congregations in larger churches. These groups use Jewish trappings such as yarmulkes, talesim, Torahs, Jewish music and Hebrew to hide their Christian nature from potential converts. Some of these local congregations also operate infant day care facilities, full-time day schools, and “Bible counseling centers.” For many Jewish converts to Christianity, these “Messianic Synagogues” and cross-cultural ministries serve as half-way houses until such individuals are ready to enter the gentile churches.

Q How “Jewish” are groups like “Jews for Jesus”?

A While a large number of members were, in fact, born or raised Jewish, others are gentiles who deceptively adopt Jewish forms of worship and dress as well as names in order to appear Jewish. On a religious level, the “Jewishness” is no more than a front since these groups accept traditional Christian teachings and reject Jewish teaching in every single area where the two diverge.

Q How do Christians feel about “Jews for Jesus” groups?

A A number of Christian denominations have condemned the deceptive and aggressive nature of groups like “Jews for Jesus.” The Roman Catholic Church, liberal Protestant churches, interdenominational study groups and interfaith councils worldwide have taken a stand against this form of proselytizing which does a disservice to both faith systems. Other Christian individuals and groups have been less sensitive to Jewish community concerns and continue to spend hundreds of millions of dollars annually to convert Jews to Christianity. Most of the missionary and conversionary groups are affiliated with fundamentalist Protestant denominations.

Q Are missionaries a problem in Israel?

A Yes. An increasing number of Christian missionary groups - most of them based in the United States - have targeted the Israeli Jewish population for conversion, and “Jews for Jesus”-type churches now exist in every large Israeli population center. There are over one hundred such institutions and ministries in Israel today.

Q Are the missionary leaders sincere?

A Some of them are undoubtedly “in it for the money,” but most are probably very sincere in their belief that only people who believe as they do will go to heaven; all others will go to hell forever. Since they believe this so sincerely, some of the missionaries will resort to various tricks and devices to persuade you to believe as they do (the “Moonies” call this “heavenly deception”). We make a mistake when we assume that sincerity - in and of itself - is necessarily a good thing. Hitler was most likely also quite sincere in his belief that the world would someday thank him.

Q What type of Jew is most vulnerable?

A The average Jewish convert to Christianity is between 15 and 35 years old and has very little Jewish education. Since people are most vulnerable at times of personal change and transition, the missionaries are increasingly centering their efforts on a number of vulnerable Jewish populations, including high school and college students, senior citizens and recent immigrants.

Q Is there a way to prevent someone from becoming involved?

A An effective program of prevention has five components:

Affiliate: become part of the Jewish community, by taking classes, joining a synagogue or attending events at the Jewish Community Center. Take advantage of the resources in your community and strengthen your bond with your past and your people;

Jewish education and lifestyle experiences: one who knows his/her faith in a dynamic and living way will rarely be attracted to the cheap substitute offered by the missionaries;

Open communication: encourage open communication in all areas, and develop a firm family support base for times of transition and crisis;

Critical thinking: people should be trained in the skills of critical evaluation and should be made aware of the practices of deceptive conversionary groups;

Outreach: each one of us must be an outreach worker, aware of the existence of hurts and vulnerabilities in our midst and seeking to reach out to the lonely and vulnerable before the missionaries do.



YOU can make the difference!
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION:
JEWS FOR JUDAISMP.O. BOX 15059
BALTIMORE MD 21282
410-602-0276

www.jewsforjudaism.org

By : Joseph Jacobs   Meyer Kayserling   Crypto-Jews of the Iberian Peninsula. The term, which is frequently derived from the New Testament phrase "maran atha" ("our Lord hath come"), denotes in Spanish "damned," "accursed," "banned"; also "hog," and in Portuguese it is used as an opprobrious epithet of the Jews because they do not eat pork. The name was applied to the Spanish Jews who, through compulsion or for form's sake, became converted to Christianity in consequence of the cruel persecutions of 1391 and of Vicente Ferrer's missionary sermons. These "conversos" (converts), as they were called in Spain, or "Christãos Novos" (Neo-Christians) in Portugal, or "Chuetas" in the Balearic Isles, or "Anusim" (constrained) in Hebrew, numbered more than 100,000. With them the history of the Pyrenean Peninsula, and indirectly that of the Jews also, enters upon a new phase; for they were the immediate cause both of the introduction of the Inquisition into Spain and of the expulsion of the Jews from that country. The wealthy Maranos, who engaged extensively in commerce, industries, and agriculture, intermarried with families of the old nobility; impoverished counts and marquises unhesitatingly wedded wealthy Jewesses; and it also happened that counts or nobles of the blood royal became infatuated with handsome Jewish girls. Beginning with the second generation, the Neo-Christians usually intermarried with women of their own sect. They became very influential through their wealth and intelligence, and were called to important positions at the palace, in government circles, and in the Cortes; they practised medicine and law and taught at the universities; while their children frequently achieved high ecclesiastical honors.

I left the entire quote, this is where you have a lack of insensitivity....Jews were forced to convert to Christanity by Force, The Spanish INquistation was about destroying the Jews. Your act is akin to it in Jewish Eyes. 'Touchy? damn straight, Christianity has been about cruel conversion, Martin Luther was known for Anti Semetic views. Remember the Pope apoligized for the past acts of the Church, but he will not retrurn the books and the artifacts to Israel, items that were taken by force during the Crusades.

If you had this done to you would you be a little pissy? Learn Jewish history, read about he Pogroms, Then talk to us.

Quoted: ...the other thread that scub_ed started. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=135&t=376348

Thanks for the invite.

Quoted: Quoted: Jesus never quoted from any book of the Apocrypha, though He quoted from almost every other OT book. That should tell you something. Jesus quoted from 24 OT books, however He also practiced Judiasim that was not just a part of the written law (Torah), but also from the Mishna (The "Oral Law"  which had Pharaisic overtones and is now codified in the Talmud). For instance the "Last Supper" is a perfect example of a Pesach Seder that follows the proscription of what is now referred to as the Haggadah. Jesus also celebrated the "Feast of Dedication" (John 10:22), which modern Jews now call "Chanuka". Neither the Haggadah nor the institution of the Feast of Dedication appear in the non-Apocryphal OT books.  Jesus may not have quoted from those books, but he lived according to many of the teachings.  That should tell us something as well.

The book of Revelation warns anyone about adding or subtracting from the scripture. Also, Jesus didn't obvserve any oral or written "tradition" that went against true Godliness. See Matthew 15:1-9.

Quoted: The book of Revelation warns anyone about adding or subtracting from the scripture.

Agreed, but that admonition also appears in Deuteronomy, Proverbs, and Jeremiah (I'm sure you can figure out the implications on the New Testament from there).

Also, Jesus didn't obvserve any oral or written "tradition" that went against true Godliness. See Matthew 15:1-9.

.

Nor did I say he did. Please see my first post on the topic.

Quoted: ... I only recogognize the inerrancy of those that we ALL agree on (i.e. the "Protestant" Bible). That said, I do recognize the truth contained in the O.T. Apocrypha. In fact, I think it is impossible to truly understand Jesus' "Jewishness" without Maccabees. ...the fact of the matter is that you will find references to the history contained in Maccabees in the Gospels. That history is central to understanding the social, political, and religious culture that Jesus was born into; in short, what made the man part of Jesus a man.

Quoted: Quoted: The book of Revelation warns anyone about adding or subtracting from the scripture. Agreed, but that admonition also appears in Deuteronomy, Proverbs, and Jeremiah (I'm sure you can figure out the implications on the New Testament from there). Also, Jesus didn't obvserve any oral or written "tradition" that went against true Godliness. See Matthew 15:1-9. . Nor did I say he did. Please see my first post on the topic. Quoted: ... I only recogognize the inerrancy of those that we ALL agree on (i.e. the "Protestant" Bible). That said, I do recognize the truth contained in the O.T. Apocrypha. In fact, I think it is impossible to truly understand Jesus' "Jewishness" without Maccabees. ...the fact of the matter is that you will find references to the history contained in Maccabees in the Gospels. That history is central to understanding the social, political, and religious culture that Jesus was born into; in short, what made the man part of Jesus a man.

I don't think the purpose of the gospels is to make us understand Jesus' social, political and religious culture, but to make us understand that He is the Son of God. Jesus' "Jewishness" is not about culture, but bloodline and lineage.

Quoted: My BIL doesn't like my King James Bible because he says it is missing a few books.  I checked into it, he is write but they are all, VERY minor OT books on the likes of 3-4 pages long. I figured I ain't missing much so I dont worry about it. Sgat1r5

You use the KJV?  I thought that version was heretical?  Did Vatican II undo that?

Quoted: I don't think the purpose of the gospels is to make us understand Jesus' social, political and religious culture, but to make us understand that He is the Son of God. Jesus' "Jewishness" is not about culture, but bloodline and lineage.

I made no statement of the purpose of the gospels.  The OT Apocryphal books (among other things such as a basic understanding of the secular history, and Pharaisical "oral law") have helped me better understand who Jesus is, which is much more than a simple bloodline. YMMV.

Quoted: Quoted: THE "APOCRYPHA": WHY IT'S PART OF THE BIBLE Basically there were several parts of the bible that were inconvenient for Martin Luther. Dernit, I kept telling myself I wasn't going to get involved in this forum! Stryfe: The LOL was not meant for you, but for Mr. Armstrong.  Dave's go a bit of an issue with Luther.   Although he's a great Catholic Apologist, his disdain of the old monk (somewhat deserved) often creeps into places it shouldn't be (like the discussion of the Apocrypha you cited).  I've got a good friend that appears frequently in debates on Dave Armstrong's site, specifically here (look for the "vs. James Swan" on the links to articles at the bottom of the page).  I grew up with Jim, and miss his fellowship.

Yeah, I expected some kind of flame for that link, there was some obvious bias, but I do think he makes valid points.

I just don't know enough about it, honestly, to really argue for him. I just thought it was an easy way to answer the original question.