I'm not going to engage your post any more than to make one statement, as I'm in NO way interested in a Catholic vs. protestant debate. Mostly because that's the VERY thing that turns people off to religion.

The Biblical assertion is that God reveals himself IMmediately (without the need for a human go between) by the Holy Spirit directly revealing the meaning of the Word of God to the individual. The church can often be helpful as it is a society / collecction of individuals to whom the Holy Spirit reveals the  Word - as a sort of "sanity check" for what a single individual THINKS the Holy Spirit might be revealing to him about the Word of God. No individual stands alone in authority of defining what God's Word says. But the church, being comprised of fallible humans, is not infallible itself. The history of mankind proves that point beyond any logical dissent. EVERY manifestation of the church - regardless of denomination -   has AMPLY demonstrated its own sinfulness, INCLUDING in its ecclesiastical pronouncements regarding good and evil. The history of mankind is RIFE with proof of this reality.

This is merely a statement of the Biblical position, and I will NOT engage in any sort of intermural slug fest between professing Christians.

Gman,   moral universalism is a common worldview that is defensible from a philosophical standpoint.    





I tried to explain to you that its possible to be  moral universalist and still believe in God, but that kind of flew over your head.    





if you want google the  Euthyphro dilemma.  Basically it is the question "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"





Divine Command Theory says the latter,  Moral Universalism the former.   The problem is you can't prove either case.     Its simply a matter of belief.     I believed in moral universalism when I was still a theist.  It has nothing to do with atheism.  





You can rail against me all you want, that doesn't change the fact that both of our beliefs are based on assumptions.   Any logical argument is only as good as its assumptions.    
 
 

Dino -

Its simple.

If a sovereign Divine authoriy doesn't exist, then all discussion of right and wrong can ONLY eixist in the arena of human opinion.

You are trying to assert divine universals WITHOUT the existence of a deity.... a sort of nebulous, ill defined supra-human morality that's just sorta out there, with no source or authority than can be pointed to.  Well, that's YOUR opinion re: morality , and nothing more.

Its like trying to argue the existence of a Ford Mustang while NOT beleiving in the existence of Ford Motor Company. Well, the car  may be a Mustang, but if Ford Motors doesn't exist, it is NOT a Ford Mustang. Similarly, without a Diety, you may have a moral code, but ain't no way its a universal moral code, because you MUST have a sovereign authority to make the moral code universal.

Else, your moral code ONLY exists in your opinion.

And MY opinion is every bit as valid as yours.

I've stated that several times.  You're the one telling me my belief is illogical....  





The only difference in our beliefs is we each believe in a different unprovable thing (god vs universal morals).   As you say, my opinion is as valid as yours





The Euthyphro dilemma is well known.  Its not something I made up Gman.
 

Our opinions are equal (in an existential sense) , but NOT our belief system re: morality. Yours is yours. Mine is God's. Sounds megalomaniacal, but its the reality of the situaiton. No credit goes to me for my system - only to God.

Your universal morals fail logical anaysis, based on my discussion above. There is NOTHING "universal" about them. OTHER THAN in your universe of 1 person.



The"dilemma" is amply answered in Scripture. Its a dilemma ONLY for those who claim rational, god-like autonomy from God.

rofl



The reason it is a dilemma is the Bible doesn't have anything to say on the matter.



God could simply be relaying to you the universal morals I believe in and you would never know the difference.  

+1
Only adding that there is plenty of fake...yes even evil "Church" to go around!

If this is truth....Im still not clear on what a "universal moral" is....and how we can even know them?
And how is he "relaying" this truth to all men?

In my humble opinion these are good and valid questions indeed.

What it is that the Bible says about moral conduct?

What is it that the Bible says about the origins and root causes of immoral behavior and it's consquences?

That about those godly morals that should be adhered to and according to them should be,''universal,'' and apply to all men at all times?

What is the standard of a,''universal moral?''

Philosophical in nature from the mind or consciousness of a man or men over time?

What is the status concerning the kinds of civilizations in which they came from and do some of these even exist today as a credit to this way of thinking or acting?

I am also of the opinion that man has had his chance over a great length of time to sort his own dilemmas, in which be himself has failed at doing,apparently at this time on most all fronts where that a man is capable by himself of going.

It seems to me that one who possesses good sense would know this is true by looking at our current world situation and seeing for themselves that universal morals are no more than in and of themselves, universal failures.

In this sense to me, attempting to apply or instill something good in the world from the consious or inward abilities of a man, who is of a fallible nature, will ultimately produce fallible results like we see in the world now and growing now in with unprecedented negative results.

Are things out in the world getting better, or are they getting more complicated as to even knowing right from wrong concerning even knowing what good is in a broad relative sense and mixed together and watered down for the conveniance and tolorance of ungodly individuals when addressing the nature of man vs.universal morals vs. new age thinking?

Or are we only speaking in relative and philosophical terms like stated above with their obvious limitations and for matters of conveniance here?

Thanks,

SAE

Most Christians believe the Bible is the method by which God made the moral code known.  



As far as how we can see the universal morals, the easiest way is in the moral rules that are shared by virtually all communities and religions.  



 

Fail.

That's true.  

I don't understand why there's any problem with human opinion determining right and wrong.  

I don't understand why we need a pre-determined standard for right and wrong, especially one based on a 2,000-4,000 year old society.  

Societies change.  Customs and morals change.  Some of the customs and morals described in the Bible seem barbaric today.  More receintly, the American public generally supported the fire-bombing of Dresden and other cities that killed large numbers of civilians.  We might not think that was moral today.  But that would depend on the circumstances.  

The only universal rule of morals is, "Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time".

Wrong.

The Bible does not allow for the existence of universal morals, existing apart from God's person.


The Bible speaks VERY clearly to this.

Because outside Divine authority, we have NO basis for selecting one opinion over another.

Hitler and Goebbels have ONE opinion of morals. You and I share alot of commonality to a VERY different opinion of morals.

If God does not exist, then all discussion of morals exists ONLY in the realm of human opinion (which you have already noted as true) and we really have no objective basis of claiming our shared opinion of morals is better than Htler / Goebbels.  



At the very first part of your post, you asked, "I don't understand why there's any problem with human opinion determining right and wrong."

Here (immediately above) you answer your own question. At the time, Auschwitz seemed like a good idea to Hitler. OF COURSE, down deep in your subconcious, you KNOW there is NO WAY what Hitler did was moral.

Biblically, this subconcious but hard wired conception of absolute morals that is in you is defined as "the image of God" stamped upon you. It is in you, it is ultimately inescapable, but presently you suppress it.

That is why THIS discussion of morals is absolutely critical. It is the Biblical way of me addressing that which is most likely to convince you of the existence and soverignty of God.

There is NO WAY we can know them, as they are NOWHERE objectively communicated. Its a big smoke screen to try to acknoweldge the hard wired morality built into every man, WITHOUT ever giving God credit for it.

(I suspect you know this, and I am merely trying to magnify your point for Dino's benefit)

My thoughts are: I was raised going to church also, turned agnostic and eventually into a devoted believer. I became agnostic because what I understood of the Bible didn't alighn with those Christians who were around me. What I am saying is, I wanted to believe but it must be B.S. because nobody I see can or does live according to the lessons of the Bible. I decided that "religion" must just be a book on living a moral life, written by people long ago. There must be value in religion because there are so many different ones. So, I'll just pick and choose the best from them all and confess that I there may be a supreme being but then again, maybe not.

 It took me to be suicidal to actually read the Bible for myself and do what it said in order for me to surrender to it. That is when I realized that I didn't have all the answers I thought I did. I began to ask, read and learn.

 My suggestion is to study up and don't stop until you get to the truth. Then you will either fall on one side or the other. Agnostic is the ultimate fence sitter - not good for either side but condemned just the same.

 Bring your child to a Christian church by all means. God's word will not come back void.  Don't lie. Share your honest concerns or issues, My concern is are you going to take him to a Mosque as well?

 One day your son may bring you to Christ. I've seen it happen many times.

Don

Nice try . You're beginning to sound like Hoody.  I don't think there's a person alive with even a basic knowledge of the history of the US that doesn't recognize the role Christianity's moral code played in the laws and standards we set for ourselves as members of this society.   But then I think you knew exactly what I meant.



BTW, I didn't miss your point.  I very clearly understand that you're arguing both for and against a universal morality.



 

The fact you would even try to assert Auschwitz exists outside the discussion of morality ( a ludicrous assertion, BTW) is the proof you are suppressing the image of God stamped upon you.

Because unless man is made in God's image, there is NOTHING ultimately wrong with what happenned at Auschwitz.

You know the truth.... You KNOW Auschwitz was immoral.... you know its immoral because God says so, but the suppression of the truth you are attempting leads you to a logically untenable position - that Auschwits was not about morality.

That RIGHT THERE is the key.

The freedom, ability and desire to beleive in almighty God comes ONLY thru the reading of the Bible for yourself.

"Faith comes by hearing the Word of God." Its is a SUPERnatural occurrence.

Okay, reset.....

"Was what Hitler et al did at Auschwitz immoral?" Yes, or no

wow



I got news for you.  If it turns out I'm right and you're wrong about God, it still doesn't mean the above.



What happened at Auschwitz is wrong.  Period.  No caveats based on your religious views.  
 

Why?

Here's my assessment thus far -

The disbelief in God results in one of two two thingswhen discussing morality -

1. An inability to say definitively that what happenned at Auschwitz was absolutely, definitively, eternally evil (Japle)

2. An assertion that it in fact was evil, but also an inability to explain WHY it was evil  on any framework larger than personal opinion. (i.e.  "Moral universals" sans the existence of God = personal opinion.) (Dino)

So, let's continue....

What an amazing point of view!

I would also like to point out that the root of the"biblical morals" (10 commandments) found in the bible are actually explained through evolution.

You don't have morals because you follow your religion, in fact, even those that are not religious have the same morals.

It is one thing to know what is right or wrong though the human concious.

I'm also not saying that there are some secular people out there who are capable of being civil and generous to other people who they may see in need.

But what are we really talking about here, good morals?

At least as I see it, secular universal morals are not at this present time gaining the upper hand over depraved and immoral human behavior that we see now on the rise around the world.

Where is it that universal morals originated?

The family?

If this is true then even according to the statistics of failed marrages, child abuse, a rising crime rate, drug abuse and the mass trasferrence of std's among young people, many of those still living at home within that family circle, then it seems like to me that the concept of universal morals, if not on the ropes now, will soon most certainly be, and in two to three generations from now, even extincted from human society, if  comparing past numbers to the ones at present, according to the statistics rising in these areas are true and thus correct.

So what is the answer to this delemma?

Secular family and individual couselling, many times given by people who have suffered and are still emotionally scared through the same abuses themselves using their own professions to also help them cope also in a world that is not getting better by any stretch of the imagination?

Tell me some more about universal morals!

Thanks,

SAE

Is there such a thing as "secular universal morals"?   I've never heard that term.  

I've also never seen or heard of any evidence that there are "religious universal morals".  

In any case, I don't think that depraved and immoral human behavior is actually on the rise around the world.  People have always behaved in depraved and immoral ways.  The OT is full of examples.

It can be argued that morals came about when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge between good and evil. All the 10 commandments did was clarify what men already knew in their hearts. It boils down to what one has their faith in.
Don

OK.

Then the next question....

WHY was it wrong?

The root of Biblical morality is MOST DEFINITELY NOT found in the 10 Commandments.

Your whole premise is wrong.

The root of Biblical morality is found in the person and nature of God Himself.

Murder is wrong because it is a violation of the person and nature of God. And His direct command, but that is secondary, and NOT the root of morality.

Many who hold to evolution deny the existence of God. Among them Richard Dawkins and Steven Hawking.  I take their word on what evolution is REALLY about.  Nuthin' personal against you, but you lack their expertise and credibility.

So both a Biblical theist and an evolutionary atheist would tell you your premise is entirely wrong.

Unless you're asking a psychopath, that's just the stupidest question I've heard in years.

If you don't think that there is a difference concerning the way moral behavior is achieved and sustained by Christians and the ones who live in the secular world enviroment, without the reverence, worship and a ordained godly perfecting process of the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, and don't think that depraved and immoral behavior is on the rise in our present day, in and from from the world system at large, then we have too great a gap of differing veiws in my opinion, to go any further here concerning discussion pertaining to this topic at this time.

Thanks,

SAE

Oh, Buddy, the fact that we have a great a gap of differing veiws is not news!  

Doesn't mean we can have a little fun, though.  

Should I take that as an admission that your worldview has no ability to explain WHY Auschwitz was immoral?

Mine does.

No.

Should I take your posts as an admission that you can't decide whether Auschwitz was wrong without referring to your religion?

You should ABSOLUTELY see my posts as an admission that Auschwitz was NOT wrong UNLESS Almighty God proclaimed it was. Which He diid. There is NO basis for the existence of right and wrong OUTSIDE the person of God. (I've been explaining this for 4 pages now)

Now again - tell me why, in your worldview, Auschwitz was wrong. "It just is" is NOT an answer - its an opinion. And in 1940's Germany, they held a different opinion.

The fact is your worldview CANNOT explain why ANYTHING is immoral.

Murder, rape, theft, slander, Communism, beastiality, incest, you name it - its NOT immoral if God doesn't exist.

And there's the rub - the attempt to beleive there is no God (you in relaity do believe God exists) is but an attempt to NOT have to answer to His standard of morality. That's what Scripture tells me about both you AND me. We BOTH want to get off God's hook.

I'm off the hook ONLY by the mercy of God,a nd the blood of Jesus Christ. And now I try to NOT abuse the love and mercy of God, by obeying God's law. I have a LONG way to go. Beleive that.

Japle,

You stated previously in this thread from a statement that garandman had posted concerning the holocaust that that was the stupidest thing that you had heard in years.

Now, I don't know whether that you made that statement concerning what he had to say because you actually believe that what he said had no real significance according to the subject matter, or you were merely being facetious, trying to illicit a negative response, or what have you, according to what it is that you personally believe right now concerning such matters.

However, Japle, in and through my own christian views pertaining to what I know through the Holy Spirit of God, and through His teachings according to the Bible, and what it is that It says according to things that have happened in this world to date and beyond, please don't take it in a negative way when I say that your response to my last post directed at you is one of the stupidest things that I have heard, like you, in years, if my memory serves me correctly in the way that it should.

Now I don't say this with a flippant or a sarcastic attitude, and I certainly hope that you don't take it that way.

What I post here, as well as many others that do also, it is meant to be of a serious and solumn nature for the most part, not only in it's content, and what it should actually mean in the eternal sense,but also because their are many here who feel very strongly like I do, that there are some important life issues that need to be discussed here that have serious ramifications and consequences concerning some of the spiritual matters that we openly address in the religion forum right now.

One of them pertaining to there being lives on the line, not only here on earth, but what happens afterward, by and through the physical death of a man or a woman which is inevitable concerning us all.

Now, I'm pretty sure that you either have the mental capability to understand this, and to take it a step further, or even to have the knowledge of this now. But the fact still remains with me, why is it that you take this type of negative attitude with some christian people who post here, trying to get the word out about Jesus Christ, which means hard work at times, and what He means to the whole world of humanity and what lies in the balance for a man or woman and things of this nature.

Now I'm thinking that you don't believe in Him of any other such god, for I feel that you have lumped them all together and feel like any kind of religion is foolishness and maybe even worse than that.

Now, exept for Jesus Christ, and the Father that sent Him, I assure you that I feel the same way too, even about the whole religious process in general and have felt this way for some time now.

You and I just may not be as far apart about some of these issues that you may feel that we are having differing opinions about at this time.

In my natural mind though, I do have some reservations and even marvel sometimes, about why you continue to come into this peticular forum and post here in the way that you do, being what seems to me anyways, to be that you are not a religious person and I suspect even an atheist also.

Could you explain why it is that you come here and post in the way that you do?

Is it because of some prior negative experiances that you have had with religion, in which most everybody here has had too?

It does appear, at least to me, that if there was no real issue concerning your stance either about religion in general, or the existance of a higher being, which I believe at this point you feel is foolishness, then why bother?

I do believe if this were to be the case with me personally that I would be smart enough to know that I certainly don't know everything that there is to know as no man does, and as a matter of fact there is quite a bit about certain subjects that I don't know myself. And if you have kept up any around the RF for any length of time, then I'm sure that you would know that this is more than likley obvious concerning some my own educational limitations, which curtails me here sometimes from participation, especially on the scientific and sometimes historical levels of discussion that go on here for clarification of certain veiwpoints, from time to time.

However, the fact is that wisdom produces more wisdom, and ignorance unchecked produces much foolishness, especially when protracted out and caused many times by a bad attitude about most things in general, not just the subject of religion, right or wrong, and how it should be put into a proper and into an at least emotionally healthy context by a man or a woman, so that they might find peace concerning it in their own lives and in the lives of their own families as well.

I believe that your statement concerning having,'' fun,'' around in this forum concerning spiritual matters especially concerning whether one even has a chance at beating death, and attaining eternal life, and also to effect many lives in a positive and loving way, a real way, and a living way, through Jesus Christ here on earth and with much purpose, to me is ignorance, and not only foolish, but also even dangerous, that is, if your wrong concerning your views about there bring no God, and would have to make an accounting for everything that you ever did, without Christ, and thus no escape from eternal punishment and being thrown headlong into the Pit, that is hell, the eternal place of punishment.

Now if this peticular concept that you may have about God's punishment affecting you in just that way make you upset or angry, then maybe it should do just those very things.

Because if you are wrong about Him and it, in which you have absolutely no assurance that there isn't, then if incorrect about your views concerning them, then that is where you are going to end up and shortly, as the Bible says that the years of a man's life down here pass by quickly and are of no consequence in the eternal realm concerning and relating to the limited physical time span that one will go through with no guarantees here on earth.

And if you are wrong concerning what happens at the point of death, as stated before, you will be dispatched to a place of supreme torment with no reprieve, and awaits for you now, as well as many others who feel the same way that you do concerning these matters.

Now you might say that you will take your chances on God's Word and myself standing in error, making no difference whatsoever concerning the outcome of your life as you might see it's eventual outcome right now.

This is where you stand concerning these things right now, correct?

Because if you do, then maybe you should stay around here for a while longer for your own spiritual and eternal benifit as well.

Seeing how if you may be wrong about some things and what is at stake here.

Because if you and I are doomed to the grave and there is no tomorrow, then I think that we should do most anything that we want to, for in a short time you and I will experiance death, and be sent down into a hole without hope, forever.

When speaking about so called universal morals and thinking about permanent physical death, this gives me no hope whatsoever concerning this either.

Why should I adhere to what other men have come up with over time, if they too are fallible like me, and I am heading to the same place of non-existance the same as them?

Because of my own human pride, making a name for myself as the world tells me that I should do?

So that I can toot my own horn, so to speak, overtly and even covertly around others mainly for personal gain, and show them what a generous humanitarian and overall good guy that I am, or was, if I fail to maintain that human standard of righteousness all of the days that I have been alloted to be this kind of a person?

How long will that situation last me and be of any human benifit to me, until the day that I finally die and am placed into a casket somewhere?

Then what do I have?

A family left behind to talk about what a good and honest man that I was?

Or maybe some other people who might speak kindly with only what they might percieve as human respect about me for a few years, until they are dead and in the grave along side me also, in that same condition of repose and decay as I am too?

Were the worms of the earth will eventually eat away at what is left of my withered body with my conciousness just as dead as that?

No thank you sir, I'll just keep sticking to the path of Life, who is God through Jesus Christ, His Son, and my Savior, out and away from these other dreaded things!

This is life and certainly more abundant than that of a mere limited walk through and by the conditions of physical life that we must bear and endure, even if for only a relatively very short season at best.

And when meditating concerning such in the spiritual or eternal sense, then I realize how very short and even more so, absolutely meaningless that it is without Christ and His wonderous and awesome teachings indeed!.

Thanks,

SAE

OK, guys (Grandman and SAE) I’ll try to hit the high spots in one post.  

Grandman:
"You should ABSOLUTELY see my posts as an admission that Auschwitz was NOT wrong UNLESS Almighty God proclaimed it was. Which He diid. There is NO basis for the existence of right and wrong OUTSIDE the person of God. (I've been explaining this for 4 pages now)"

And I’ve been hearing you.  IMNSHO, you’re totally wrong, but I don’t expect to change your mind.  I’m not trying to change your mind.  I’m expressing my point of view.

And in that spirit, I’m sure there were some Jews in Auschwitz who were Atheists.  They weren’t there because of their beliefs, but because of their heritage.  Millions of Gypsies and other “undesirables” were also murdered.  Some of them must have been Atheists, too.  
My point is that, since those people didn’t believe in God, they must not have been able to understand that their murders were wrong.  Since, according to you, there’s no basis for the existence of right and wrong outside the person of God, they must have gone quietly to the slaughter.  

"Now again - tell me why, in your worldview, Auschwitz was wrong. "It just is" is NOT an answer - its an opinion. And in 1940's Germany, they held a different opinion."

The leadership, driven by a psycho, may have had a different opinion, but I doubt the German people shared that opinion.  They knew they’d be turned in by their neighbors is they objected, though.  That happened many times.  

"The fact is your worldview CANNOT explain why ANYTHING is immoral."

That just shows you don’t understand my worldview.  I was raised in a generic American middle-class society and learned its customs and morals.  Religion isn’t necessary to be a moral person.  

"Murder, rape, theft, slander, Communism, beastiality, incest, you name it - its NOT immoral if God doesn't exist."

Murder (including mass murder and the murder of children, infants and the unborn), rape, theft, bestiality and incest are all described in the OT, often with God’s blessing.
http://englishatheist.org/dbabout.shtml
Using the OT to teach morals is like using the Brady Campaign to teach gun rights.

“And there's the rub - the attempt to beleive there is no God (you in relaity do believe God exists) is but an attempt to NOT have to answer to His standard of morality.”

It seems I can’t get it across to you that I, in reality, do NOT believe that God exists.  Also, my standard of morality is considerably higher than the standard set in the OT.
You’re so wrapped up in your religion that you can’t imagine another point of view.  On the other hand, I can imagine your point of view.  But I do not agree with it.  

SAE:

I don’t see the necessity of answering your post point by point.  
Just a few responses.

What I post here, as well as many others that do also, it is meant to be of a serious and solumn nature for the most part, not only in it's content, and what it should actually mean in the eternal sense,but also because their are many here who feel very strongly like I do, that there are some important life issues that need to be discussed here that have serious ramifications and consequences concerning some of the spiritual matters that we openly address in the religion forum right now.

One of them pertaining to there being lives on the line, not only here on earth, but what happens afterward, by and through the physical death of a man or a woman which is inevitable concerning us all.

Now, I'm pretty sure that you either have the mental capability to understand this, and to take it a step further, or even to have the knowledge of this now. But the fact still remains with me, why is it that you take this type of negative attitude with some christian people who post here, trying to get the word out about Jesus Christ, which means hard work at times, and what He means to the whole world of humanity and what lies in the balance for a man or woman and things of this nature.

And later:
Could you explain why it is that you come here and post in the way that you do?

I find religion and religious beliefs very interesting.  I’ve studied religion, mostly Judaism and Christianity, for over 50 years.  I don’t expect to find a high degree of logic associated with religion and most of the time that doesn’t bother me.  But every now and then I see something posted that I’d like to refute.

It does appear, at least to me, that if there was no real issue concerning your stance either about religion in general, or the existance of a higher being, which I believe at this point you feel is foolishness, then why bother?

I do believe if this were to be the case with me personally that I would be smart enough to know that I certainly don't know everything that there is to know as no man does, and as a matter of fact there is quite a bit about certain subjects that I don't know myself.

Really?  It seems to me that I often hear that one religion has the answers, at least on some subjects, and anyone who doesn’t toe the line is going to be in big trouble.  In case you haven’t noticed, Grandman is certain that I really believe in the same god he does, despite my repeated insistence that I don’t.  

I’m no less certain of my beliefs than you are.  Why do you bother to argue with me?  Do you think you can convert me?  

And if you are wrong concerning what happens at the point of death, as stated before, you will be dispatched to a place of supreme torment with no reprieve, and awaits for you now, as well as many others who feel the same way that you do concerning these matters.

You say that as if I can just make a choice, abandon my core beliefs and adopt yours.  Could you abandon your beliefs and adopt Islam?  I sorta doubt it.

Why should I adhere to what other men have come up with over time, if they too are fallible like me, and I am heading to the same place of non-existance the same as them?

Because of my own human pride, making a name for myself as the world tells me that I should do?

So that I can toot my own horn, so to speak, overtly and even covertly around others mainly for personal gain, and show them what a generous humanitarian and overall good guy that I am, or was, if I fail to maintain that human standard of righteousness all of the days that I have been alloted to be this kind of a person?

How long will that situation last me and be of any human benifit to me, until the day that I finally die and am placed into a casket somewhere?

Then what do I have?

A family left behind to talk about what a good and honest man that I was?

What you leave behind is a function of how you lived your life.  So far, I’m pretty pleased with the way my life has gone.  I’ve never felt the slightest need for religion.  I don’t anticipate the survival of my personality after I die.  The possibility that any religion is true seems so remote that it doesn’t concern me in the slightest.

Japle,

Thank you for your informative answers. I felt after reading some of your posts over time that you might be one of the older participents around here as I have become also.If you don't mind me asking sir, why is it that you don't find much if any logic associated with religious belief systems?

I mean, you know, in a nutshell because fully breaking this one down could take hours and even days depending on your expertise concerning this subject.

Now I know that you have interest because that you took some time out of your schedule for a fairly lengthy reply to some questions that were posed at you.It is also possible that maybe you even attended a church or house of worship and one point.

If you did then would you mind telling me what kind, how long, and the reason that you quit attending?

Also when you were young or even more recently, did you ever make a public profession of faith toward Jesus Christ coming into your life and making some changes in you?

In other words, have you ever had a feeling as if God were existant and attempting to get your personal attention in any way?

Thanks,

SAE

BTW, I’m an amateur musician (trumpet and trombone) and like to play church gigs.  I’ve sat through a great many services and I’m still amazed at what I hear.  

Amazed in what way?

Thanks,

SAE

Amazed at what I hear coming from the pulpit.  
Amazed that people actually seem to believe what's coming from the pulpit.
Amazed that the man or woman in the pulpit actually seems to believe what's coming out of their mouths.

I'm sure there are people (maybe you?) who are amazed at some of the things I believe or don't believe.

That's OK.  I don't mind.

Funny story:  A few years ago, I was in a large church in Cocoa Beach rehearsing for The Messiah, with full orchestra and chior.  During a break, I was standing at the main doors talking to the minister.  I started to laugh.  He asked what was funny.
"Well", I said, "I think it's funny that, with a big church like this one, your two 1st trumpet players are an Atheist and a Jew".  
I could hear the wheels turning as he tried to figure out which one I was!  

Now that's funny!

Anyway, this is a first for me.

How is it that you play church gigs?

Are you a part of a company or an orginization that does this sort of thing?

You are compensated for your talent right?

Thanks,

SAE

I like playing and there aren't many chances around here.  The local Community Band is run by a moron/terrible conductor.

I played with a Drifters-type group a few years ago, but the leader ripped off the whole band and never paid us.  

There's a lot of good church music.  Most of it isn't real challenging, The Messiah being a big exception.  I love playing "The Trumpet Shall Sound".  It's a great piece, it's pretty high and it stays up there.  It's just relentless.  If you don't have some pretty good chops, you're gonna sound real bad.  I've never had any complaints.

Sometimes I get paid, sometimes not.  If the church can afford it, I want compensation.  

It helps that I've got 2 degrees in music and can read several clefs.  Some of the older music is written in Alto or Tenor clef or I have to read from the hymnal, which is in Tenor C or bass clef.  

I've got a couple of C trumpets, but they're 70-80 years old and don't play in tune as well as my Bb, so I just transpose.

Very interesting to say the least.

How many engagments of this type have you done to date, and when did you start doing this?

Do you have a clientel at this point, and are invited back to perform at certain churches sometimes?

Thanks,

SAE

Mr. Japle,

If you don't mind me asking sir, are you married?

Thanks,

SAE

SAE,  

I played a lot of church gigs in college, then none at all during my 27 year military career.

Then I bought a trumpet and a trombone and got back into it.  Now, I play whenever I get a call, maybe 10-20 times a year.  

Most of the local churches know me and will call whenever their music director needs horns.

I've been married since 1968.

I have no doubt you (often) meet the standards of what is typically described as "a  moral life."

My point is that, since you can cite no authority outside yourself (or the collective opinion of other humans) , what you really have accomplished is to often (tho not always) meet the moral standards that you have set for yourself.

Romand 1:21-22 precisly describes your worldviiew...  21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.   22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, (i.e. "fools" not as a pejorative, but in the sense of "the fool hath said in His heart, there is no God " - Proverbs. At moments I live as a fool myself, anytime I disobey God)



This common objection has been answered by me at least a dozen times in this forum alone, and by other individuals  more than that. That it still appears as some sort of argument is simply amazing.

It is EASILY dismissed.


God is NOT blessing evil. He is extending mercy to evil doers, offerring them time (but only in this life) to repent.

Consider the mercy of God extended directly to you - the earth and heavens scream out about His existence ((Psalm 19)

He's placed a conscience within you that speaks of Him.

He's given you His Word to tell you a bout Him.

He's sent me and others to explain Him to you and answer your questions.

There simply is no basis to consider this to be God blessing evil. God's judgment of evil is sure, complete, final and terrible. Though, for a season, He now extends you His mercy.