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Posted: 1/1/2006 1:08:40 PM EDT
[#1]
Uhh...yes...are you actually proud of this?  Why are the AK guys always so defensive? Personally, I wouldn't scrape dog doo off my boots with an AK, but to each his own. 
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Posted: 1/1/2006 1:18:10 PM EDT
[#2]
thanks for the new target! Im gonna print out a hundred of these! |
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Posted: 1/1/2006 1:37:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Post your 100 yard buckshot target if you ever make to the range, that is if you actually have access to either. 
Actually yes. Have you ever done better with an AK and Russian ammo?  AK guy? Defensive? I'm actually a Colt AR, HK, FAL kind of guy and only recently got into the many AK varieties, although I've had a Galil for almost 15 years. And you? Near as I can tell if you spent more time at the range than stepping in dog doo you might be able to match my target and have cleaner shoes as well.  So far only one poster has been able to prove he could match my AK target with an AR. That's sad considering this is an AR15 site, but not surprising since few of you get to the range enough to even shoot up to minimal AK and Wolf ammo standards. The fact is, most AK shooters shoot so much (partly because of the cheaper ammo) they can easily outshoot most AR15 shooters who only get out every other month because they spend more time in General Discussion than at the range. If you think different, prove it with your 10rd 100 yard target. |
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Posted: 1/1/2006 2:01:41 PM EDT
[#4]
As rediculous as this rig may appear. a friend of mine kills the shit out of coyotes with one very similar, albeit a 3x9 and no sun shade.
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Posted: 1/3/2006 5:15:07 AM EDT
[#5]
This setup DOES adhere to the rule -
Your scope and rings should cost at least as much as your rifle.
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Posted: 1/3/2006 5:19:57 AM EDT
[#6]
Offhand? Benchrest? Sandbagged? Irons? Scope? Ammo? Kind of meaningless w/out more info.
I don't take pics of my targets, and I don't save them. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 5:53:22 AM EDT
[#7]
 Dude... ...I could beat that with my S&W snubbie. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 5:55:36 AM EDT
[#8]
Heheheh. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 6:02:49 AM EDT
[#9]
My guess is some guy bought it at a gun show from a dealer who claimed it was a dragonuv sniper rifle, just without the scope.
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Posted: 1/3/2006 6:07:31 AM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 1/3/2006 6:08:27 AM EDT
[#11]
 
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Posted: 1/3/2006 8:15:21 AM EDT
[#12]
So we are ONLY up to two people on Arfcom that can beat my AK target with an AR. Sad very sad. Time to hit the range more boys 
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Posted: 1/3/2006 8:30:45 AM EDT
[#13]
Wow, you are trying to introduce logic and facts into this thread. It was at the bench with only the front handguard resting on a stack of small sandbags. Scoped with a 3.5x fixed Rusky. Ammo was 10 cent Barnual 5.45 FMJ. This is a CQB setup (unlike the AK in the picture that started this thread). If I recall it was raining and the wind was gusting that day. Now I'd like some info on the twos ARs beating it. Varmint setups? Leupy 10x's? Rolled handloads? Does your AR weigh more than my AK? |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 8:38:13 AM EDT
[#14]
I keep looking for a group all I see is 10 fliers 
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Posted: 1/3/2006 9:25:09 AM EDT
[#15]
How about you just tell us what the CtoC measurement of the group was. My AR can do 1" all day long.
Now yer making excuses. And you were in immense pain at the time too right??
EVERY AR configuration can beat that. Every single one. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 9:31:12 AM EDT
[#16]
Scopes like that make your bump firing much more accurate.
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Posted: 1/3/2006 9:46:50 AM EDT
[#17]
Personally I think the French should adoupt the AR...I mean you cant even get them alittle dirty or theyll jam.....so you cant really use them in battle....perfect for the French.
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Posted: 1/3/2006 9:58:40 AM EDT
[#18]
DPMS A2 carbine. Stock. Bushnell 2x7x32. Bipod from the bench. Federal 69gr top, Handloaded Sierra 65gr soft point on the bottom. The type of scope on top will not suddenly make you shoot any better. I can shoot about as well with irons as I do with a red dot. I can shoot about as well with 4 power scope as a 9. My results from the AR are pretty typical of any shooter that is obviously doing any real practice vs. just blasting. I haven't seen too many targets from serious AR shooters that looked bigger than 3" with an optic. Lots are inside 2". The ARs are well recognized as an inherantly accurate design that can be refined even further with money. There are plenty of good reasons to throw a scope on your AK. Eyesight, and not liking the open sights would probably be on my list. What was put on that thing is just a waste of cash. It is not going to hold a small enough group to useful at long range... and how exadurated do you need to see your tremours and wobble at short ranges? How the hell would I know how much your AK weighs?
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Posted: 1/3/2006 10:09:16 AM EDT
[#19]
I will do about 1.5" from the bench on a 10 shot string at the peak of my performance. Wolf ammo is usually much worse but even with surplus M193 I can shoot 2.5" with no problem. I agree with him on one point. People rely on 3 shot groups too often. I thought at one time I had a 1 MOA FAL. Once I started shooting 7 and 10 shot groups I quickly became disposed of that notion. Oh yeah my FAL has a 3x9x40 on top, free floating HG and a smoothed trigger. Still can't get it to consistantly shoot better than 2-3" on my good days. The scope on top does not count for shit if you can't shoot or the rifle can't group any better. It just makes it easier to be certain you had the same point of aim when you fired. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 10:23:45 AM EDT
[#20]
The ultimate AR myth. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 10:25:59 AM EDT
[#21]
I think you are joking with us, but my stock M15A4 will easily make tighter groups than the ones you have shown and I'm pretty sure any AR would do the same. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 10:26:13 AM EDT
[#22]
More important that that even is what size is your group (of how ever many shots) on the last 10 times you shot a group. In other words, can you group sub-MOA consitently? |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 10:27:44 AM EDT
[#23]
Yes, with my standard iron sights, not national match, Just regular A2 sights, and yes that is with shitty for accuracy Wolf ammo. I would imagine any other High Power League shooters here could do the same. No biggie. 
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Posted: 1/3/2006 10:37:25 AM EDT
[#24]
I don't tend to keep my targets; however, with the M1A, I'm classified at the high end of Expert for Highpower Rifle. I expect that to improve when I move to the AR15 platform. I don't shoot glass on my HP rifles (it's against the rules), but still manage to hold MOA. That is with reloads, but that only accounts for so much. Probably make up the difference since I don't use sandbags when I shoot HP. Next I go rifle shooting, I'll try to remember to bring back some targets, I guess. But ask anyone what I was doing to glowsticks at the Hun Farm with my FAL!
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Posted: 1/3/2006 10:54:28 AM EDT
[#25]
Grunteled's stock AR can outshoot my AK with ammo that costs twice as much. Pictures prove it. Most others here are just talk. Other than the flyer (who knows, maybe it was my fault or the cheap ammo) the AK group was 2 1/4" Including the flyer it was 4" Nine shots in 2 1/4" is nothing to scoff at when it’s from a stock AK firing russian ammo. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 10:59:09 AM EDT
[#26]
Varmint setup?
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Posted: 1/3/2006 11:01:03 AM EDT
[#27]
Every functional AR can consistently beat that. Using iron sights.
Actually pictures only prove I can make good groups....with a lead pencil.  |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 11:05:19 AM EDT
[#28]
That's true. I have been able to shoot 0.6 to 1" groups of 5 every so often, but I can't sit down and say, "today I will do that again". So it really doesn't mean much. 1-2" with a scope, 2-3" with irons is about as good as I can do right now and be reasonably certain I can do it again. I don't think my rifle can get under 1" consistantly either. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 11:15:00 AM EDT
[#29]
How many times have you repeated that? That flyer could be a flinch or a jerk, or it could be the outside edge of the rifle/ammo combo's performance. Without averaging the results or using a backing target to record all the groups you won't know for sure. I can get some great numbers if I throw out one bad shot. However when I shoot 50 rounds using a backer target my 'flyers' usually blend into the overall pattern, they are just the extreme edge and occur at low frequency, but you can't just ignore them. They are there and they will happen, group after group after group. Careful about the cost of my ammo. Fed 69 is pretty pricey but my handloaded rounds cost about 3-4 cents more than Wolf. For 100yd use they tend to shoot better than federal too. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 11:24:31 AM EDT
[#30]
That's right, Robert. You're the best shot ever and your rifle is a true marvel of Soviet precision design. We stand in awe of your amazing capability to shoot 4 MOA groups. I shall truly strive to achieve your personal greatness. 
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Posted: 1/3/2006 11:30:01 AM EDT
[#31]
We will stand at 300 yards apart, and trade shots. RObert with his AK, me with my AR. I'll even let Robert go first. I'll only bring one round.
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Posted: 1/3/2006 11:34:22 AM EDT
[#32]
No, the best shot ever award must surely go to garandman. After all he said: "Dude......I could beat that with my S&W snubbie." I'm just an average joe posting a stock AK target. No highpower trophies here. Sorry I riled the highpower shooters and couch potatoes so badly. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 11:37:49 AM EDT
[#33]
For the record, highpower shooters are people who live and breath accuracy. Ever wonder why you won't see any AK's at highpower matches? In fact at ANY matches where accuracy counts? What exactly is it you know that a hundred thousand other competitors don't know?? |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 11:45:43 AM EDT
[#34]
No highpower trophies here either.
You seem to make a lot of assumptions about what others can and can't do Robert. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 11:49:56 AM EDT
[#35]
You do realize that at 200 yards, some folks here could beat that with nothing more than a HBAR AR, a sling, few rounds of 77gr. ammo, and closed eyes for every shot, right? ( With irons, to boot ) Listen, your group speaks volumes. Most any AR in the same conditions can beat it assuming the two shooters are of equivalent skill. Keep this in mind - the best shooters in this forum... are not responding to your thread. 
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Posted: 1/3/2006 11:52:00 AM EDT
[#36]
Yup. They just chuckle at the AK guys and move along. In fact, teh best shooters round here seldom post in GD. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 11:53:12 AM EDT
[#37]
Not funny. You would die. It's one think to be silly, but that is downright idiotic. AKs have no problem killing people at 300 yards. I used to post my 300 yard results on the AK forums, of which you are blissfully unaware. I've also been handed several tactical match certificates when I was using an AK and place in the top ten. There were a few AR operators ahead of me, and about 50 to 80 way behind on the scoresheet. I've also been beat by a guy using an AK with iron sights. I didn't feel bad though. He beat every AR that day too. Highpower shooting is slow and deliberate, with the emphasis on slow. Stock ARs are usually not in sight. They also wear funny jackets. Anyway, my point is, a stock AK has all the accuracy needed for typical combat ranges. You do not want to be downrange of one with an unloaded AR and with just one round. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 11:55:17 AM EDT
[#38]
Yea..I guess thats why we are doing so badly in Iraq, huh?  I hear about jamming every night on CNN, huh? And trust me, if there were dirty AR's jamming in Iraq, CNN would be the first doing yet another story on why we are'nt prepared in Iraq. I guess WASR stands for: Wicked Ass Sniper Rifle?? 
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Posted: 1/3/2006 12:03:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Dude, I'm not knocking AKs. They're cool. But the groups you posted aren't really all that great - particuarly scoped and off a bench - and are easily duplicated with just about any AR, using milsurp ammo. Your shots are all over the place. Any decent scoped AR will hold 2.5" with crap ammo. Shit, Old_Painless did a test with various mil loads (Wolf, Q3131, XM193), took pics, and did better. Even then, the point of the post was to prove how lousy the ammo was for accuracy.
I really don't understand what you're trying to prove. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 12:05:59 PM EDT
[#40]
I take it you're a highpower shooter, so you know all about it, right  ? What does slow have to do with it? In the rapids, you have 60-70 seconds to make a group like the one you posted.- You start in a sitting or standing position. You don't have much time to fix things up. - There is a mandatory reload. - They shoot at 200 and 300 yards. Your AK cannot do that. Yes, some of highpower is slow and deliberate. However, the rapid fire stages are not. We don't have the luxury of a bench and sandbag like you do. We can't use optics like you can. We can't stick 10 rounds in a magazine and take our bloody time like you can. All we have is a sling - all we need is a sling. We have to start out of position. We have to reload and charge the weapon with one hand. This is not mentioning the Rattle Battle. Not only do we start out of position, we have to RUN up to our firing point, drop down, and start shooting at a man-sized target at 600, 500, 300, and 200 yards. This, all at the rate of about one round a second for 64 rounds. Don't be so quick to discredit the ability of a highpower shooter to put rounds on target where he wants them This has less to do with the man than the weapon system. I don't care how many tactical matches you've been to. Sure, an experienced shooter with an AK can beat a n00bie with an AR. Technically, your AK cannot hold a group that most normal ARs can. This is not me being a snob, this is not opinion. This is FACT ETA - I forgot to add this. At Quantico and Perry I used a stock AR from Colt. More fine sights and a crappy two stage trigger, but this has little to do with the many times I have cleaned a stage. In other words, your argument don't hold water. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 12:12:07 PM EDT
[#41]
Its called hyperbole (and in this case is only a slight exaggeration) Dude....my hyperbole aside, you are just making a fool of yourself. Whatever floats your boat. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 12:31:45 PM EDT
[#42]
This thread WAS about AKs not being worthy of a scope and not shooting decent groups at 100 yards. Now it’s about an AR being superior at HIGHPOWER matches and taking pot shots at me.  How far we have come. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 12:36:07 PM EDT
[#43]
I think that's the real issue here. I don't understand what he's trying to prove. I think he thought I was mad at him, but I'm not, just poking fun. I'd be kind of annoyed if I left the range with a target like that. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 12:37:34 PM EDT
[#44]
I ain't takin potshots at ya, but I'm telling you one thing that you don't seem to grasp.
An ordinary AR, highpower match or not, will outshoot an AK in terms of groups. All I was saying is not to discredit highpower as being eclusively slow. We do shoot very quickly at times. Time for you to separate the man from the machine. I'm telling you that an ordinary AR will group better an ordinary AK. You respond by saying that the highpower crowd has little credibility because it is slow. I'd love to know what you are TRYING to argue. I don't care where you shoot, or how quickly or slow you shoot. I'll say it one more time. Many, MANY people with ARs on this site have had ten shot groups that beat those from an AK. Need I say it again? |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 12:38:06 PM EDT
[#45]
I certainly would not brag about shooting a 4 MOA group. Especially not one shot off a bench while using a scope.
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Posted: 1/3/2006 12:41:16 PM EDT
[#46]
Robert2011
Shesh, stop making a fool of yourself. I'm getting embarrassed for you.
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Posted: 1/3/2006 12:42:17 PM EDT
[#47]
They're still not worthy of a scope. You should be able to shoot groups like that with irons. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 12:44:30 PM EDT
[#48]
PRECISELY!!!!!!!! When my AR shoots larger than 1" at 100 yards (even with the fliers) , I'm pissed  and start ripping it apart to figger out what's wrong.Comparatively, when AK guys get 4" groups, they save the targets for bragging at Arfcom. Too funny. |
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Posted: 1/3/2006 12:44:58 PM EDT
[#49]
4 MOA is still minute of chest.
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Posted: 1/3/2006 12:46:21 PM EDT
[#50]
I like minute of eyeball. make that minute of iris.  |
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