Twire,

Divorced female methodist minister

That is just a miniscule reason why I am not now, nor ever shall be lumped in with protestant faiths.

That particular one above is so wrong as to be breath stealing.

The liberality of creeping socialism and sickening "inclusiveness" and "equality" of sexes has crept into almost all of the churches that exist.

It is a sickness, without question.

Loony,

I understand that you feel augmented by your "toolbox".

I most assuredly do not.

To the point that I truly fear for your eternal well being.

You guys are like neighbors whose house is smoldering and ready to burn, I cannot stop shouting fire. It is an eternal resposibility to me and those of like mind.

It is important that to each and every one of us that is interested in his eternal welfare to be fully assured that what he is committed to is the right and correct path, for the cost for failure is your very soul and it is eternal.

2Tm:2:15: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

why? because of the following:

1Pe:5:8: Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

And the all time deadliest of warnings:

M't:7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
M't:7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
M't:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Many will claim to be Christian, but they will be cast aside.

Everybody better have it locked down tight, the final exam is an eternally permanent flunking grade.

Goodnight to all.

Dram out

Quoted:
Twire,

Divorced female methodist minister

That is just a miniscule reason why I am not now, nor ever shall be lumped in with protestant faiths.

That particular one above is so wrong as to be breath stealing.

The liberality of creeping socialism and sickening "inclusiveness" and "equality" of sexes has crept into almost all of the churches that exist.

It is a sickness, without question.

Sickening is exactly how I felt. I was attending a Wednesday night men's Bible study group for about a year at a Methodist church Studying the letters of Paul, and towards the end of the study I arrived early one evening and casually picked up the church newsletter. Page one announced the arrival of their new associate pastor who was a female. The sick feeling began to creep in. As I read on, she had written a brief history of her ministry as a greeting. She told of how she was married while studying to become a minister, had two kids but after a few years "the tension between her and her husband grew and the marriage just didn't work out." My head was spinning! I couldn't believe that his church had taken this on, much less splashed it across their newsletter. Out of respect for the study leader, and my interest in the material, I finished the program, but it was tough to ever view the congregation with my initial level of respect.

The southern Baptist church that my wife attended all her life eventually evolved into a ridiculous farce of a 'church.' They had a divorced man and a man who had two children out of wedlock (the mother and children also attended) as deacons. And the pastor eventually made headlines trumpeting the inclusion homosexuals into the church.

A good friend at work told me that her small rural church had only her father as a deacon because they couldn't find any other willing man in the congregation who wasn't divorced!

It creeps into everything.

LOL  Tj it is an Amish custom that the kids go out and experience the world before they make their final choice...well there is also an Amish-Pagan as in drug dealing motorcycle gang, connection. It isnt'what you see that counts.

I recall as a 13 year old that several families dropped out of my Parents Church...seems they were swapping wives...I thought at the time, who cares it is their choice. The custom of the Roman Empire was one wife, and a mistress or two. In  Israel they had more than one wife. Adultry is in the eye of the beholder, the Christian Church professes forgiveness, yet critizes those that are different.

I have seen wives refuse a divorce because of the church, in a bad marriage, and seen the husband go into a relationship with another woman...the lies hurt the child. Is that right. I know a minister break down and leave the church....it was over another woman..his marriage was not strong, and he lusted after a woman in the congreation...never went to a relationship..just lusted in his heart....is that not sutpid?

I go with tolerance, you do it your way and I do it mine, MrsWind and Mswind are very happy, Hurricaine Allie loves MsWind,  MrsWind is fine with that. MrsWind does less laundry and cooking, she is very happy with that...

As an attorney, and as a twice-divorced Christian, I have a little bit of 'experience' in these matters.

I have counseled many fundamentalist Christians when it comes to the subject of divorce in the legal arena.

There is only ONE Scriptural ground for divorce...the commission of adultery or 'fornication' on the part of the other spouse.

cf. Matthew 5:22; Matthew 19:9

The only spouse entitled to obtain a divorce on this ground is the OFFENDED spouse.

In other words, IF the OFFENDED spouse does NOT seek a divorce based on this ground, and decides that the marriage, as it is, should continue, that is well within his or her rights.

IF the OFFENDING spouse is the one who seeks divorce, then he or she lacks the Scriptural basis for doing so.

IF the OFFENDING spouse, nevertheless, does seek and obtain a divorce...and remarries another, then that marriage is an adulterous one, so long as his or her original spouse remains unmarried and faithful to their wedding vows.

If the OFFENDED spouse decides to continue to remain faithful to the wedding vows for the remainder of his or her life, the OFFENDING spouse is without Scriptural authority to remarry without committing the sin of adultery.

IF the OFFENDED spouse chooses to remarry AFTER his or her divorce, then they are Scripturally free to do so.

IF the OFFENDED spouse does choose to remarry, then the OFFENDING spouse is likewise free to remarry, even IF the divorce was originally sought by him or her based upon grounds other than adultery.

If the OFFENDING spouse has already remarried, when the OFFENDED spouse chooses to remarry, then his or her marriage becomes non-adulterous.

Very simple.

Really.

Eric The(Legalist)Hun

Quoted:

Guess what--  Damn near all your deacons even at the most holier-than-thou churches have engaged in fornication, anger without just cause, looking at a woman with lust, coveted his neighbors ass, or some other naughtiness.

Then they are likewise unfit to be deacons in the church.

Eric The(HolierThanNone)Hun

Well John,


Of course I am positing about extreme cases here.

And that extreme case is your physical well being... your very existance.

If someone is not only threatening to kill you but beating you incessantly... they have demonstrated without a trace of doubt that they are not a Christian.

We all here would agree that it is evil incarnate, can we not?

Well, proceed from there.

Just my personal theories based on study, if you dont wish to apply it... please dont. Hopefully you never have to.

So, do as you think is best John... hopefully you wont run into the situation you would like me to parse for you.

In my opinion, after you become a Christian it is all between you and the Lord .... whatever it is that you do.

So, caution and forerthought in all things is your best bet

Dram out

John,

Your posts are really offensive.

Why do you come in this thread to crap on it?

Do I need to ask Va-gunnut to have a talk with you?

This IS the religion forum and the GD rules dont apply here friend.

Dram out

I beleive that the bible states,'

All have SINNED and fallen short of the glory of GOD.

Quoted: All have SINNED and fallen short of the glory of GOD.

Precisely.

But it is nevertheless wrong to continue in your sins, and to continue in sin is to forfeit Eternal Life.

Eric The(Hardshell)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: All have SINNED and fallen short of the glory of GOD. Precisely. But it is nevertheless wrong to continue in your sins, and to continue in sin is to forfeit Eternal Life. Eric The(Hardshell)Hun

I agree to a point.,

I stated what I did as a point not to judge. Something I have been quilty of, and am working to change.

Paul also wrote that Yet while I was still a sinner, Chrsit died for me.

None of us are perfect, we are all in need of grace and mercy. Two things that we as humans dont seem to give enough of to one another.

I dont beleive one can "lose" thier salvation. You can grow distant in your relationship with GOD, and stop walking in his light and presence. But still be saved and if you die in that time of your life, you will still go to heaven. You rewards will be less, and I beleive you will for a brief moment lament the time wasted when you are shown what you COULD have been doing for the kingdom.

I personally have witnessed alot of crap in the church, I have seen people "fall" so to speak in a moment of weakness, and have seen some get up, and go on with GOD, while others have beaten themselves up and still others have just gave up.

I have also seen those who set out to lie, steal and rape the church, and show no remorse at all for thier actions.

In the end GOD will judge. I just need to work on 1shott and my relationship with GOD.

I do beleive that if a person holds a level of office in a church, that they need to be held accountable for thier actions, and that may mean that they step down from the postion they hold in the church for a time.

BUT and I say BUT, they should be ministered to, counsled to and just be friended. They dont need a bunch of self rightous jerks hurling stones and a year later allways reminding them that "they came up short" in the eyes of everyone. That is not grace or forgivness. I say that from a personal view, something I have had done to me.

Among my last words to those people were these,

Who are you, to keep digging into the sea of GODS forgetfullness, and keep bringing up my past and my past mistakes? GOD has forgivin me, I have dealt with the situation, and am forgivin, If GOD has seen it to forgive me, which he has, then I fail to see why a place I have called my church, my home, and people who I thought were "brothers and sisters in Christ" cant seem to let me move on and want to hold me back and down?

Have a nice life, goodbye.


I have spent the last 8 years of my life getting to the point where I like myself, and can live my life, they way GOD intends me to live my life in his plan for my life.

A church can be a great place, where people can grow toghter and encourge on another, AS IT SHOULD BE,

BUT

It can also be a place where lives and people can be beaten down and ridiculed, alot of harm can be done to a person if they dont just up a leave and go somewhere else.

Very well said 1Shott.  Patty

Quoted: Loony, I understand that you feel augmented by your "toolbox".

Actually, TWire used the toolbox analogy.

I most assuredly do not. To the point that I truly fear for your eternal well being.

Then pray that I will be faithful to Christ.  Being a husband and father of 5 kids, I need all the people praying for me that I can get!

You guys are like neighbors whose house is smoldering and ready to burn, I cannot stop shouting fire. It is an eternal resposibility to me and those of like mind.

The smoke you see and think is a fire about to burn our house down, is actually the fire in the fireplace that we lit!  It's there on purpose and well under control.

It is important that to each and every one of us that is interested in his eternal welfare to be fully assured that what he is committed to is the right and correct path, for the cost for failure is your very soul and it is eternal.

And I am fully assured that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ founded and that it is where God expects me to be.

Uh John,

Va-gunnut already slapped you down and warned you without me even bothering to call him in on this thread.

You are cursing and throwing around aspersions like wildfire.

You are most certainly over the line here in Religion forum land.

It is NOTHING like GD in here.

Keep it up and you will find out the hard way.

And it wont be of my doing either.

Have a great day.

Out

Loony,


Pray for you?

Absolutely.


Take care,

Dram

Quoted: So, if I were to marry say a... Mormon or even a Catholic... all of which are not scriptural Christians...

Ignorant

Sorry,

Well versed.

Dram out

Quoted: Quoted: Twire, Divorced female methodist minister That is just a miniscule reason why I am not now, nor ever shall be lumped in with protestant faiths. That particular one above is so wrong as to be breath stealing. The liberality of creeping socialism and sickening "inclusiveness" and "equality" of sexes has crept into almost all of the churches that exist. It is a sickness, without question. Sickening is exactly how I felt. I was attending a Wednesday night men's Bible study group for about a year at a Methodist church Studying the letters of Paul, and towards the end of the study I arrived early one evening and casually picked up the church newsletter. Page one announced the arrival of their new associate pastor who was a female. The sick feeling began to creep in. As I read on, she had written a brief history of her ministry as a greeting. She told of how she was married while studying to become a minister, had two kids but after a few years "the tension between her and her husband grew and the marriage just didn't work out." My head was spinning! I couldn't believe that his church had taken this on, much less splashed it across their newsletter. Out of respect for the study leader, and my interest in the material, I finished the program, but it was tough to ever view the congregation with my initial level of respect. The southern Baptist church that my wife attended all her life eventually evolved into a ridiculous farce of a 'church.' They had a divorced man and a man who had two children out of wedlock (the mother and children also attended) as deacons. And the pastor eventually made headlines trumpeting the inclusion homosexuals into the church. A good friend at work told me that her small rural church had only her father as a deacon because they couldn't find any other willing man in the congregation who wasn't divorced! It creeps into everything.

These days so many churches are focused on adding to the numbers and building a big congregation.  Many wrong behaviors go unconfronted.

I read a story about John Wesley visiting churches.  He would expel unrepentant people involved in immoral lifestyles, which is a very biblical thing to do.  Imagine how serious people would be about their spiritual lives if this principle was practiced in the contemporary church.

Brohawk...

How very interesting a point you make!

Dram

Quoted: Brohawk... How very interesting a point you make! Dram

I had to go back and see what I said!

Yep.  Steve Taylor had a song, "What Ever Happened To Sin?"

Much of the pap preached from pulpits is lacking in righteousness and correction.

Some situations can be difficult to handle properly.

For example, there used to be a stigma attached to being a pregnant, unmarried young woman.

Now I've seen the ladies in the church throw a baby shower for someone in that situation.

To me it sends a message of, "How wonderful!  You're having a baby!", which seems a tad inappropriate.

While I look upon someone in that situation with compassion, I don't think throwing a party sends the right message.

If a young woman in that situation is repentant, I think she should receive the support of the church in that difficult time.  At the same time, we need to reinforce to other young people that the behavior that led to the pregnancy is wrong.

How to balance these?  We need to call sin what it is, but still comfort those in need.  I think kicking a young woman out of church at a time when she needs it most would be counterproductive.

And, as a side note on these situations, the young man responsible for the situation needs to also be held accountable!

I have a real concern about any man being able to point to his fellow servants and 'expelling' them from the Church of Christ.

It is/was not John Wesley's church and by what authority could he claim the right to judge another?

Next thing you know, folks would be denied the simple sacrament of receiving Communion based upon the judgment of Man.....

Eric The(Wait!It'sAlreadyBeenDone)Hun

Well ETH,

Would you allow a couple that are supposed to be Christians to attend Church if they are unrepentantly living in sin together?

Would you allow a known mobster to attend church on a regualr basis if he is unrepentant of his activities?

How about a substance abuser that refuses all entreaties for help?

How about a blatant and amorous homosexual that brings his boyfriend along and flaunts his lifestyle?

Just curious is all.

Where would you draw the line?

Dram out

Quoted: Well ETH, Would you allow a couple that are supposed to be Christians to attend Church if they are unrepentantly living in sin together? Would you allow a known mobster to attend church on a regualr basis if he is unrepentant of his activities? How about a substance abuser that refuses all entreaties for help? How about a blatant and amorous homosexual that brings his boyfriend along and flaunts his lifestyle? Just curious is all. Where would you draw the line? Dram out

As long as they do not hold a position in the church, sunday school teacher, deacon etc it is not a issue. The church is filled with people like that, some things are in the open, BUT most things are  hidden, everyone has area in thier lives that need to improve. /change.

Now if they are in a postion at the church then no, the issues need to be addressed and corrected.

Quoted: Well ETH, Would you allow a couple that are supposed to be Christians to attend Church if they are unrepentantly living in sin together? Would you allow a known mobster to attend church on a regualr basis if he is unrepentant of his activities? How about a substance abuser that refuses all entreaties for help? How about a blatant and amorous homosexual that brings his boyfriend along and flaunts his lifestyle? Just curious is all. Where would you draw the line? Dram out

It's simply not my line to draw.

It's His....it's His Church, His decision.

Is the Arm of the Lord shortened that He cannot save?

Nope.

Besides, where do sick folks need to be?

In church....

There might still be One Church if folks spent less time thowing people out rather than trying to treat them as Jesus might.

He is, after all, supposed to our Sole Example in such matters.

If a law is being broken, then call the police....and that would include disturbing the peace.

But otherwise, we are powerless to prevent those who come to church from coming to church.

Eric The(RememberTheOpenDoorChurchAtPhiladelphia?)Hun

1Co:5:11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

2Th:3:14: And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th:3:15: Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

1Co:5:6: Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?


I dont agree with you ETH.


If someone is blatantly glorying in their sin in the midst of the saints, they must either repent or be asked to return when good sense comes to them and they repent.


We are not to keep company with unrepentant brothers that will not turn from their sin.

That is just my take.

Dram out

Quoted: 1Co:5:11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 2Th:3:14: And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 2Th:3:15: Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. 1Co:5:6: Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? I dont agree with you ETH. If someone is blatantly glorying in their sin in the midst of the saints, they must either repent or be asked to return when good sense comes to them and they repent. We are not to keep company with unrepentant brothers that will not turn from their sin. That is just my take. Dram out

I'd have to side with Dram on this one.

I will qualify that slightly by addressing the indirect nod to me and mine in ETH's post. As ETH said, you can't really control who does and doesn't fill the pews unless they are causing some real and palpable disturbance, like perhaps pushing over the altar or otherwise disturbing worship. BUT, as is the case of the RCC of today, I do believe that those who have cut themselves off from God thru sin cannot, and should not, fully enjoy the fellowship of the Church or participate in the sacraments. And I do not believe this to be a 'punishment,' only a reminder that sin has consequences. I think that stands as a separate issue from bodily removal from the congregation, and as a separate issue from excommunication. And I have no clue what the criteria for excommunication in the modern age are.

As an example, I have seen parishioners who are divorced and remarried abstain from communion. And I think appropriately so.

I can see ETH's point, though. I have wondered that if, at certain points in life, I have inappropriately participated in the sacraments, and yet in hindsight realized that the participation itself may have been what got me 'plugged back in' so to speak. It can be a conundrum.

Good grief people, REPENT and move on, or have you folks forgotten that Christ died for ALL your sins. And just who are you to judge what is personally between GOD and an other believer who happens to be a sinner just like you.

So what yall are saying is that a person needs to get everything in thier life in order, and set right with god, on thier own, BEFORE even comming to church?

kind of does away with the whole jesus dying for our sins thing. IMO.

I seem to recall reading where nothing that we do can forgive us of our sins, that all of our good works are as filthy rags, no man can come before god except through the blood of jesus.


Not trying to start a argument, just trying to understand one way of thinking vs another way.

I know a single mother, who really struggled in church, she had a good heart, BUT could not fully understand that jesus had died and forgivin her, that she had acceptence in the eyes of god.

What she relied on and feed on was acceptence form the "preacher"

This lady was divorced and had 3 daughters, and struggled to make ends meet.

Her oldest daughter had alot of problems, the other 2 were not so bad.

It got the point where the preacher, his wife and one of the elders were at her house, the "preacher" told her this, in these words,

I order you to abandon your oldest daughter, none of you are allowed to talk to her from this point on, if anyone does, I will personally kick you out of church and you will lose your salvation"

The elder that was there, stood up and said NO that is not right, he was ordered to shut up, he said no and walked out and left the church after that.

Now this lady was stuck, does she do what she was ordered to? Or does she not give up on her daughter?

She did the right thing and did not give up on her daughter.

Some of you sound like that so called preacher.

I disagree, if SINNERS, and we all are SINNERS, cannot COME AS YOU ARE, then there is no need for jesus, the cross, the work that was done there, no need to for the attoining of blood.

Some people just take awhile longer to get to the point where you may be in your walk with god, others will not at all, it is a personal choice we all make.


That same elder, the one who walked out of the meeting that night, has 3 kids, the oldest was also a rebel at heart, die hard.

He to was told to just give up on him, he would not, and told me so many times, I cant count the nights the 2 of us would hit the floor on our knees praying for his son.

Guess what that young man is now serving god, and has a great family, Thankfully his dad, my best friend lived long enough to his son serve god. His dad, my best friend passed away in 2003, but I will never forget the example I saw of what love can do and how persistant it can be.

Some of you need to step back and just thank god that he did not give up on you in all your years of sin.

I think some of you are misconstruing what is being discussed.

The present twist in this thread is NOT whether sinners should go to church. We are all sinners and should go to church.

The question is whether someone who has sinned and NOT repented should attend. I think a contrite and pentitent heart is a prerequisite.

Quoted: 1Co:5:11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Don't keep company with such folks.

But don't try to prevent them from entering the 'emergency room for the soul'!

2Th:3:14: And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 2Th:3:15: Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Great.

Have no company with him, but don't keep him from seeking the Lord while He may still be found.

1Co:5:6: Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

The 'leaven' that is warned against is false doctrine.

If you attend a church that doesn't recognize sound doctrine against the sins that were mentioned, whether some sinner sneaks in is the very least of your problems!

I dont agree with you ETH.

It's not required that you agree with me at all.

We have liberty to view things just a little differently, one from another...when no great Doctrine of His Church is involved...

And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Matthew 9:11-13

If someone is blatantly glorying in their sin in the midst of the saints, they must either repent or be asked to return when good sense comes to them and they repent.

What better place to repent?  Where better to be reminded of their First Love?

Than in His House?

We are not to keep company with unrepentant brothers that will not turn from their sin.

Again, not keeping company with them is fine.

That is just my take.

Cool.

'Disfellowshipping' is hard to find in any Concordance....

Eric The(HowManyTimesMustIForgiveMyBrother?)Hun

Quoted: I think a contrite and pentitent heart is a prerequisite.

Good.

Then you are your brother's judge.

Tell us when you think his heart is right with God.....

Eric The(Nonjudgmental)Hun

"The question is whether someone who has sinned and NOT repented should attend."    How would any one but God know whether they repented? And is not teaching non believers the first duty of the church?  As long as they are not disruptive and have come to learn ALL are welcome in Gods house.

I must say, I speak of Christians that have turned their back on God, and do so in public...without public repenting.

I understand where you are coming from ETH, believe me.

I am just being specific about flagrant and vile offenders in public.

It is an intersting discussion though.

Dram

Quoted: Quoted: I think a contrite and pentitent heart is a prerequisite. Good. Then you are your brother's judge. Tell us when you think his heart is right with God..... Eric The(Nonjudgmental)Hun

I thought we were talking about some specific circumstances that were particularly egregious that were mentioned earlier. Maybe I lost track of the thread.

I agree that all are welcome in God's house, but does are there NO conditions upon which someone forfeits the right to attend. Don't we have to accept the conditions of the invitations in order to get in the door?

I'm not asking that as a set up, or trick question, I'm curious what everyone believes.

God invites us all, but I don't thinks its right to RSVP with, "OK, God I accept your invitation and Jesus Christ as my savior, but I'm not ready to give up _________...(fill in the blank, adultery, homosexual lifestyle, etc.).

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think a contrite and pentitent heart is a prerequisite. Good. Then you are your brother's judge. Tell us when you think his heart is right with God..... Eric The(Nonjudgmental)Hun I thought we were talking about some specific circumstances that were particularly egregious that were mentioned earlier. Maybe I lost track of the thread.

We are, or at least, I am.

I agree that all are welcome in God's house, but does are there NO conditions upon which someone forfeits the right to attend.

None, short of those pertaining to public order and decorum...which is a police matter.

Don't we have to accept the conditions of the invitations in order to get in the door?

What conditions?

I know of no conditions....

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28

I see no conditions whatsoever upon the Invitation given by Jesus Christ, do you?

I'm not asking that as a set up, or trick question, I'm curious what everyone believes.

I appreciate your sincerity.

God invites us all, but I don't thinks its right to RSVP with, "OK, God I accept your invitation and Jesus Christ as my savior, but I'm not ready to give up _________...(fill in the blank, adultery, homosexual lifestyle, etc.).

If everyone who was sinful was refused admission to the church of Christ, the pews would be empty.

Even St. Peter and St. Paul would stand without the Door, looking in wistfully....

And did neither of them sin after they found Faith in Jesus?

Of course, they did...

There was a time in the Roman Church when anyone who dared to express, print, stamp, or stain the Word of God into...English...was considered a devilish heretic, excommunicated, and executed by the Papal authorities....

Was that the Law of Christ? Was that something that Christ Himself commanded?

Give us one single instance in which Jesus Christ commanded that His followers should condemn and execute someone or anyone in the Name of the Lord......

<crickets....chirping>

Now, this entire question has, as always, already been answered by Jesus Christ Himself

Now, pay attention and give heed to the Commandment of Christ....church!

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Matthew 13:24-30

Hear that?

Does the church of Christ even listen to the Master any longer?

Sometimes, I think not....

I will await your response, not to me, but...to Him.

Eric The(FormelyATare,Myself,Now,Hopefully,AHeadOfWheat)Hun

I'm not discussing a 'Catch-22', at all.

My counsel has always been...'Is the Arm of the Lord shortened that He cannot save'??

Even the son of Madalyn Murray O'Hair has come to Jesus, I hear....

"In 1980, her son William converted to Christianity and was "born again" at a Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas, where he took up work as a preacher. In sermons, he accused his mother of using him as a tool in her crusade, claiming that she had lied about her reasons for filing the lawsuit against Maryland. He claimed to have never been the victim of any kind of violence at the hands of his Christian classmates, and said that the true reason for his mother filing the suit was that she possessed a deep personal hatred for followers of Christianity. William further said that her zeal against Christianity was so great that it had taken over her life and rendered her incapable of seeing other people--himself included-- as anything but either enemies or people who agreed with her every ideal. Murray called her son's conversion "unforgivable," and spoke of symbolically murdering him for what she viewed as a transgression against her: "One could call this a postnatal abortion on the part of a mother, I guess; I repudiate him entirely and completely for now and all times...He is beyond human forgiveness."

From Wikipedia....

You've got to wonder what Baptist church dared let that child through its door?

Possibly, one that heard the Commandment of Christ to do so!

Eric The(JudgedAsHeJudges)Hun

Quoted: <snip>

The quotes are getting to long to list every time.

I get the drift. In fact, I got the drift before the last post. My supposition or belief goes to the idea of 'decorum' that you mentioned. I guess I am instilled with a different sense of gravity than some. To me, it is highly disrepectful to approach the alter of the Lord when how shall we say....certain things are not in order.

Some examples. Let's say Larry Flynt wants to join your church. He has announced that he has no intention of giving up his empire, nor changing any behavior, but he wants to attend church and contribute money.  Then a nephew or former Sunday school charge asks about it. Do you let him come or ask him to go elsewhere? Is his attendence a violation of the decorum?

An openly gay couple wants to attend your church. Again, no intention of exiting the lifestyle is agreed upon. In fact, they want to be baptized together, then attend as a couple? Welcome or not?

I had a conversation with a female aquaintence after she was married. She was relating the story of her fiance and herself meeting with the priest prior to marriage. Well, as it turned out fiance and her were 'living in sin' at the time and the priest asked them about it. When he found out, he told them they would have to move to separate residences (and I assume abstain) before he would marry them. She was livid, both at the time and in the retelling of the story! She told him that was ridiculous but he stood firm. She questioned him,
"You marry unwed mothers don't you?" And he replied, 'Not if they are living in sin.' In her mind, continuing to live with a man and getting married to him was a moral equivalent to getting pregnant and then getting married. The priest went on to explain (and obviously I wasn't there to actually quote him) that there is a difference. Sinning, repenting, being forgiven and THEN approaching the altar was the right way to do it. But to for him to marry the two when they had made no effort to clean up their act would only condone and legitimize their behavior. So he flatly refused to do the ceremony. Of course the girl eventually, and with great reluctance moved out so that they could be married, but harbored great ill will in doing so.

Again Hun, I see your point. It is arguable, not that the invitation is open to all, but I guess what constitues improper decorum.

As an exRCC, you know that we recite the words of the centurion (Matthew 8:8) before we receive the Lord in the Eucharist -- Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only ay the word and I shall be healed.

Quoted: There was a time in the Roman Church when anyone who dared to express, print, stamp, or stain the Word of God into...English...was considered a devilish heretic, excommunicated, and executed by the Papal authorities....

We've been there, done that in IMs and its off topic to this thread. And an ineffective jab, I might add, LOL!

All I'm saying TWIRE is that any reason or rule used to prevent a man or woman from entering His Church is one that has been made up or drawn by...sinful Man.

Likely, another Man who is just as sinful as the sinners to whom he is trying to deny entry.

It's sometimes called 'Pharaisism' and was vehemently denounced by Our Lord.

And He spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. Luke 18:9-14

That's what I say when I take the Lord's Supper....'God, be merciful to me, a sinner.'

For I am, and I am not about to look around to judge any other sinners sitting there quietly taking the Lord's Supper themselves.

IF you are God, then judge....if you are man, sit quietly and be judged...by Him.

The historical record of the Roman church that I brought up was to merely remind you that, there have been times when the so-called 'vicars of Christ' made grievious errors in judgment.

Or do you still think that excommunication and execution should be the response of His Church to folks printing the Holy Bible is English...Spanish...French(?)...and Vietnamese?

Times change.

God does NOT!

Eric The(Immovable)Hun

1 Corinthians 5 1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this?

Here, Paul is saying that the unrepentant (those with a lifestyle marked by sinful behavior who refuse to turn from it after counsel to do so) should be put out from the fellowship.

3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present.

“Passed judgment?”  More on this below!

4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Hmm… Sounds like this is serious business.  Being so, we shouldn’t be guided by something so fickle as our feelings.

6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are.

Yeast is a metaphor for sin.  We should not ignore or tolerate deliberate, continued patterns of sin in those who claim to be believers.

For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth. 9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

Here, Paul is telling us that we have a responsibility to exercise judgment (discernment) within the church.

His directive to “Expel the wicked man from among you”, doesn’t leave too much room for interpretation.

Unpleasant?  It can be.

Intolerant?  I certainly hope so.

We must make sure it's clear that there is a difference between a "recovering sinner" and one who claims to be a believer but is unrepentant and clings to a lifestyle characterized by sinful, disobedient, rebellious behavior.