using cursewords in an argument is a sign of a lack of intelligence.  Make them swear, and you win.  You failed though.

ETA, I suck at page ownage.










I've have been trying to stay on a fairly low expletive level since the initial rant during the actual argument.





 

I owned your attempt at owning your own page 2

BASTARD!!!




 

Who pays for it, and what gives you or anyone else the right to demand that they pay for it?

 

Here is the thing:  when you argue with liberals, they always "move the goalposts" or they use the "magic wand".  In otherwords, what you cite is never good enough, and they always have a counterargument to what you prove to be true or false.  If you can catch a liberal in the act, you should always call them out for being illogical.

I always try to quote msnbc or cnn articles, since they can't deny news from their own camp.  Also, when they counter-argue I just call it out like it is:  stay on topic, or lose the argument entirely.  It usually shuts them up.  ymmv.

I agree.


Your points carry more weight if they aren't preceded by expletives..

See this part with the VA insurance think of that on a grander scale, and the spleen thing with your brother they might've miss diagnost it and sent him home with a tylenol..ask me how I know I've been exposed to gov. healthcare being in the military and all...One more thing if the Gov. couldn't run a cash for clunker project what makes you think they could run healthcare program....

VA insurance is gov't insurance, ie: similar in nature to what we're currently trying to avoid.  Imagine your grandfather's scenario for everyone.

Ron Paul had a good piece this weekend - Abortion is not Health care.

It's like the matrix, but instead of Keanu trying to dodge bullets it's a liberal trying to doge reality.




 

This is the printed version of watching two 8-year-old girls slap-fight.  You guys are all amateurs.



You know what they say about arguing on the internet...

You're no fun.




 

Well, 'cause healthcare is a right to the care the government will provide.

It isn't a right to the care you want.

You should pay for your own healthcare. If we all paid out of pocket, there would be real price competition, and the costs would go down.

Any type of government payment will not include real price competition, and the government will have to respond with rationing to keep costs down. That may mean long waits, poor service, treatments not offered, etc.

if you care about your healthcare, keep it in your hands, not the governments.

This.  You have good points; they should stand on their own without the cursing.



 

If it's all a right, we should quit working.

Health care is not a right.  Nothing can be a right, when the government has to take money from one group of people in order to provide it.  If you look at all the true rights in this country, they do not require people to be taxed to have it.  

With every passing day, I HATE liberals more and more.

Strangely enough...(I'm a Foot Dr.), I think access (at least equal access) to health care in this country is a right.   Nobody should discriminate based on sex/age/immigration status, etc.

That means you want a sex change operation, you can find a Dr. to do it.

You want breast implants, you got it.

You want a 24" Schlong....find a Dr. to give you one.


What is NOT a right is expecting ANYONE else to pay for it.......


Your "Right" to free speech, your "Right" to freedom of religion, your "Right" to freedom of the press doesn't mean that anyone has to give you your own TV Show, Build you your own Church or Give you the materials to print your own Newspaper.....

AFARR

Agree completely.



 

The old adage "If you want something done right you have to do it yourself." and all that




 
 

Addenda to my above post...

People are confusing...."Health Care" in this country with "Paying for Health Care".


When someone says "The hospital wouldn't do XXX surgery...", that's typically NOT true.   The correct story is "My INSURANCE won't pay for XXX surgery, and the hospital won't do the surgery UNLESS I can find a way to pay the bill".

That's a FINANCIAL issue (either between you and the insurance company OR between you and the billing department of the hospital), not a HEALTH CARE issue.

Yes, health care is expensive...but so are a lot of things...If your car gets wrecked in an accident, can you pay cash for a new car (and any medical treaments, and the other vehicle's value and driver's problems...if it was your fault)?   No, you buy insurance (or you don't drive, or you drive illegally).

AFARR

To say you have a right to another person's labor is to say that YOU have a greater right to their life than THEY do.

Which is exactly what they're saying.  When you point this logical fact out, you typically get

an emotional "But I NEED healthcare!"

As if the universe cares what they need.    Good luck with that whole "need=right" concept.  Reality doesn't recognize it.


Really tho, you're wasting your time to argue with people like that SB.

I know you're right. I just don't want to let them get in the last word at this point.

 

I agree.....with people PAYING for their office visits, most Docs would make a good bit more money (probably an equal amount coming in, but MUCH less overhead), they would be able to treat without having to go through the insurance co. rules, etc....

I can see catastrophic (>$10k in bills for most people) insurance....which would probably be a good first start.

AFARR

Fuck em.  They won't.  The system WILL crash.  You get the last laugh by hiding enough wealth from the T-men to be able to buy black market healthcare while all the goddamn marxists die waiting in line for fourth-rate .gov-provided healthcare.

There is a reason I dont have friends like that

Honestly I think a medical tourism account is going to be absolutely essential to anyone wanting quality care if this abomination passes.



 

Fuck, man, you hang around with some people who know a lot of stupid bastards.  I wonder if it's genetic.



I've got a bombshell you can drop on them, liable to make a liberal's head explode:



They like to bitch and moan and piss and whine and complain about insurance company profits being responsible for driving up the cost of health care.  Of the 138 large providers of health care in the United States ("large" meaning "responsible for providing care to at least 100,000 people") 84 of them are non-profit.  That's 61%.



http://www.nonprofithealthcare.org/resources/BasicFactsAndFigures-NonprofitHealthPlans9.9.08.pdf

The "Right to bear arms" is actually in the constitution, but nobody is demanding that the Government pay for my guns.  The "right" to something does not equal the "right to get it free".

Good one.


 

Here's the latest:






Me:









Them:


Me:








I think that might just shut them up...

Don't waste your time. You won't change their thinking.

But you're not seeing it. I'd buy it in a heartbeat. My personal insurance from CareFirst has not covered any medical expense of mine in the last 3 years, even the high blood pressure they give me whenever I need to talk to them, and counseling I needed once I got off the phone.

I just paid out of pocket for my son's birth (he's fine, mom's fine, thanks, etc), and to be honest, I could have had (wait... did have) an easier time paying out of pocket in Canada than here. I dealt with three billing departments, in the same hospital, and am dealing with a fourth. PLUS the labs, that charge EXTRA for cash pre-pay, saving the discounts for Net 120 insurance companies.

Nobody has anyone elses' telephone number, so I have NO guarantee that someone billing through another entity won't hand me over to some credit rating agency and piss all over my credit record because they did not get the transfer sheet right or copy the patient number correctly. (And yes, that happened to me in 2001, and just got cleared up last year even though they billed insurance anyways, and apparently canceled checks w the invoice numbers on them from the insurer at the time aren't good enough).

I started typing this while on hold with the insurance company that promised all sorts of things, but can't get it together, either out of sheer incompetence, or arbitrary and capricious rules.

I understand why it's this way. You have a mess of regulations, many conflicting, and it's impossible to run a clean ship as a hospital or an insurer in this country. Enforcement is arbitrary and capricious at most levels - certainly the audit I went through with the FDA for CFR 11 Rule 21 compliance at an employer many moons ago was.

What needs to be fixed is first the crazy highway pile-up of legislation handling what's in place today. Then clear ground rules need to be set:

-  Declining people for "not having been in the country for 12 months" and "no primary care physician" (like the first thing healthy people do is run to a doctor when they move here), and preconditions already managed and not covered anyways needs to be illegal - the savings from the army of paper pushers in place now being laid off is more than enough to cover that.

- Cash patients must have the right to the same pricing as everyone else - "usual and customary" ought to be listed, so you can ask what something costs beforehand. Today you can't.

ETA: The Dems' answer throws more rules on the existing ones, which is bad, very bad. It's not the answer. But something needs to change, because the system as it stands is crushing the payors under the weight of it.

The morality is, people will voluntarily pay for healthcare for others via taxes.  If that wasn't the case, hospitals wouldn't be legally bound to provide ER service to everyone who walked in the door, because the voters would punch the eject button on politicians who pass such laws.  The morality is, the VAST majority of people in this country DO want everyone to have healthcare.  The problem for Obama & Co is that the VAST majority of those with insurance are happy with it...and the VAST majority of people happen to have insurance.  What people don't want is their own insurance fucked with, they don't want to pay any more in taxes, and they don't want the government printing money to pay for it.  If Obama had proposed paying for Obamacare with spending cuts across federal government and not monkeying with current private insurance, there wouldn't be a hue and cry right now.