Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The only rational gun control is NO gun control. You think mentally ill people with a history of violent crime should have a right to carry guns with them in bars while they are drunk?   It's definitely possible to have rational laws that restrict ownership and use of guns. I don't give a flying rat-fuck if someone is carrying a gun... it's what they DO with it that counts. "Mentally ill"?  If so bad that it impacts their ability to operate in society, they should be under care. "History of violent crime"?  Why the fuck are they on the streets instead of locked up or executed. Sorry, your argument doesn't wash.  You're trying to deny the rights of law-abiding citizens based on what someone else MIGHT do.  This is the same bullshit "thinking" that got us in this mess in the first place.

Doesn't that kind of negate your argument?  They ain't "law-abiding citizens".

As for being locked up, life sentences are reserved for murderers, not violent robbers, except in states with 3 strike laws.

Part of the punishment is a loss of rights that goes beyond the prison term.  They should have thought of that before they did the crime.

Besides, it has been shown that people convicted of drug related crimes, including pot, are being given longer jail terms than violent criminals for crimes that are not drug related.  We do away with the stupid "war on drugs" and we would have more room in jail for the violent criminals.

Man, I want that billboard when they are done with it! I would take the gun out and put it against my house.

Quoted: Man, I want that billboard when they are done with it! I would take the gun out and put it against my house. 192.12.191.21/cobrand/SHV_billboard.jpg

Well... it's gone now and they replaced it with this one.  

Quoted: Besides, it has been shown that people convicted of drug related crimes, including pot, are being given longer jail terms than violent criminals for crimes that are not drug related.  We do away with the stupid "war on drugs" and we would have more room in jail for the violent criminals.

Exactly.

Quoted: Quoted: Man, I want that billboard when they are done with it! I would take the gun out and put it against my house. 192.12.191.21/cobrand/SHV_billboard.jpg Well... it's gone now and they replaced it with this one.   www.stophandgunviolence.com/images/welcome_enviro.gif

Whats that say on the rightside billboard? It says something about "Most effective gun laws...."

Quoted: Man, I want that billboard when they are done with it! I would take the gun out and put it against my house. 192.12.191.21/cobrand/SHV_billboard.jpg

So I called 1-877-safearms and a recording says, "Leave your message."

Opps, can't think of a thing to say, but maybe I will if I think long enough.

Quoted: Making it illegal for convicted criminals to own guns is NOT gun control.  Making gun ownership illegal for somebody with a mental illness which involves a history of violence is NOT gun control.  That's crime control.

Ok, maybe we are just having a semantic argument here.  If you restrict the rights of an individual to own a gun, you are imposing gun control (whether that person is a law abiding citizen or a criminal).  The next problem is, if you want to make it hard for a criminal to buy a gun in Walmart, you have to have a background check.  Again, it's a form of gun control, because the background check is a requirement (government imposed) in order to buy a gun.

I have a clear record, a job and an apartment.  I am sane.  Telling me that I am a violent criminal waiting to bust out of my peaceable shell if I get angry and have access to a gun is UNACCEPTABLE.  Telling me that only criminals want to own ergonomic rifles is a LIE.  Telling me that I should be denied my right of gun ownership if I can't afford expensive firearms is WRONG.

I'm not arguing ANY of these points.  We're in total agreement.  I think you should be able to buy whatever guns you want.  I'm merely countering the argument of an original poster who claimed that "the only rational gun control is no gun controls".  

Quoted: Whats that say on the rightside billboard? It says something about "Most effective gun laws...."

and lowest gun fatality rate in the country  gun laws work

Quoted: Whats that say on the rightside billboard? It says something about "Most effective gun laws...."

and lowest gun fatality rate in the country  gun laws work

I believe part of the problem is illustrated here. How many hunters are going to get the warm and fuzzies when they come here and are called "Elmer Fud"? The anti-huntER vehemence shown by some posters here is a guarantee that some hunters will simply say "Fuck Off" to the antagonists.

A far better strategy would be to welcome hunters as you would any other gun owner. Being civil is far less likely to think military gun owners are Militia Nutz.

Every time some of you bad mouth hunters you lose support for the cause.

Smarten up and show some solidarity and it might actually happen. Anything else plays directly into the hands of asshats like AHSA

/rant off/

Quoted: I believe part of the problem is illustrated here. How many hunters are going to get the warm and fuzzies when they come here and are called "Elmer Fud"? The anti-huntER vehemence shown by some posters here is a guarantee that some hunters will simply say "Fuck Off" to the antagonists. A far better strategy would be to welcome hunters as you would any other gun owner. Being civil is far less likely to think military gun owners are Militia Nutz. Every time some of you bad mouth hunters you lose support for the cause. Smarten up and show some solidarity and it might actually happen. Anything else plays directly into the hands of asshats like AHSA /rant off/

Well, having already been told to "fuck off" and "I hope they do ban those rifles, you don't need 'em" by hunters at the range, I say it would be up to them to make amends.  For a long time, we have not had the support of the "hunters only" or "skeet shooter only" crowds, so why should we kiss up to them.  They are the ones that owe the apology.  They are the ones who have never shown solidarity, so give me a break.

Quoted: For a long time, we have not had the support of the "hunters only" or "skeet shooter only" crowds, so why should we kiss up to them.  They are the ones that owe the apology.  They are the ones who have never shown solidarity, so give me a break.

You've made several points here. Let me address them individually.

1. You grossly generalize about hunters and skeet shooters. Many of them are equally rabid about the RKBA as you, perhaps moreso. You may have met a few who voiced the opinion you've opined here, but you certainly haven't met all of them or even a representative slice. I, for example, am a hunter yet I am a "gun nut" when it comes to the second amendment. I'd bet I'm more rabid about it than you are. Just ask my wife - she thinks I'm a frothing at the mouth gun nut... she's right

2. Hunters "owe" you an apology? Thats a good strategy for bringing them to your way of thinking

3. "...why should we kiss up to them?". While not advocating kissing up, I am recommending that you be the mature one here, and attempt to further your goal of the RKBA by actively bringing hunters to your side of the fence. This is a fight to the death and reviling an enormous population of gun owners because your feelings are hurt isn't going to win this war.

Quoted: Quoted: For a long time, we have not had the support of the "hunters only" or "skeet shooter only" crowds, so why should we kiss up to them.  They are the ones that owe the apology.  They are the ones who have never shown solidarity, so give me a break. You've made several points here. Let me address them individually. 1. You grossly generalize about hunters and skeet shooters. Many of them are equally rabid about the RKBA as you, perhaps moreso. You may have met a few who voiced the opinion you've opined here, but you certainly haven't met all of them or even a representative slice. I, for example, am a hunter yet I am a "gun nut" when it comes to the second amendment. I'd bet I'm more rabid about it than you are. Just ask my wife - she thinks I'm a frothing at the mouth gun nut... she's right 2. Hunters "owe" you an apology? Thats a good strategy for bringing them to your way of thinking 3. "...why should we kiss up to them?". While not advocating kissing up, I am recommending that you be the mature one here, and attempt to further your goal of the RKBA by actively bringing hunters to your side of the fence. This is a fight to the death and reviling an enormous population of gun owners because your feelings are hurt isn't going to win this war.

You seem to be an exception to the rule.  

Let me turn it around and look at it this way...

How many times have you heard an EBR owner, .50 cal shooter, a military firearms collector or someone into handguns suggest that shotguns and bolt action "deer rifles" be restricted or banned?

<crickets>

How many times have we read reports (or been there in person) of hunters and skeet/trap types express indifference or outright hostility towards the firearms I've listed above and/or their owners?

<lots>

While some of us that don't consider firearms "sporting implements" may take a disdainful or indifferent attitude toward those that do, I doubt that you'll EVER hear any of us call for bans or restrictions or express the "take theirs so you'll leave mine alone" attitude that seems so prevalent by the "hunters and sportsmen".

How many stories have we seen with AR owners being given a ration of shit when they show up at a range and subject to insane rules (no rapid fire, 5 rounds per mag max, etc) or handgun owners that are restricted from properly training with their defensive weapons because of such biases?

Sorry but I see far more resistance to "coming together" from the hunters side of the range than I've ever seen from the handgunners and EBR types.

Quoted: Quoted: For a long time, we have not had the support of the "hunters only" or "skeet shooter only" crowds, so why should we kiss up to them.  They are the ones that owe the apology.  They are the ones who have never shown solidarity, so give me a break. You've made several points here. Let me address them individually. 1. You grossly generalize about hunters and skeet shooters. Many of them are equally rabid about the RKBA as you, perhaps moreso. You may have met a few who voiced the opinion you've opined here, but you certainly haven't met all of them or even a representative slice. I, for example, am a hunter yet I am a "gun nut" when it comes to the second amendment. I'd bet I'm more rabid about it than you are. Just ask my wife - she thinks I'm a frothing at the mouth gun nut... she's right 2. Hunters "owe" you an apology? Thats a good strategy for bringing them to your way of thinking 3. "...why should we kiss up to them?". While not advocating kissing up, I am recommending that you be the mature one here, and attempt to further your goal of the RKBA by actively bringing hunters to your side of the fence. This is a fight to the death and reviling an enormous population of gun owners because your feelings are hurt isn't going to win this war.

1.  No, I don't grossly overgeneralize.  If you will notice, I specify the "hunter ONLY" or "skeet shooter ONLY" crowd.  It has been well over  a dozen times I have heard that bullshit and I NEVER have approached one of them.  Every time it has been some cocky asshole running off at the mouth about "you don't need that", blah, blah, blah, so don't fucking tell me I overgeneralize because you don't know what you are talking about.

2.  I didn't say they (the 2 ONLY crowds I mentioned) owe ME an apology, I said they owe all EBR owners an apology.  What, we are supposed to kiss their ass after comments like that?  We are supposed to cut them slack because they own guns?  No!  Those people are worse than the antis.  Those are the EXACT people who will join the organization that this thread is based on.  

3.  I have offered many times for the "hunters only" and "skeet shooters only" crowd to shoot my black rifles.  You would have think I cussed their mamas.  My feelings aren't hurt, but fuck that crowd.

Those people bought Kerry's "sportsman" bullshit.......hook, line, and sinker, and voted for him.

They have already shown their colors.  I expect them to know better.  My time is better spent trying to enlighten those who don't already claim to be "sportsmen" and never heard of that organization.

With PR like this, its no wonder the anti's gain ground periodically. We really need a cohesive approach to winning over the "hunter only" crowd (I've hunted my whole life, which is probably longer than your whole life since I'm getting pretty old and have NEVER met a "hunter only") instead of potshotting them on message boards. Thats all I'm saying.

You may have met a statistically meaningful number of "hunter only" folks who said bad things to you, and its sad if they did say such things. But the goal here is victory, not evening the score.

Suck it up and invite a "hunter only" over for an EBR shoot. You'll be surprized how many converts you make.

Okay, lets suppose for a minute that the hunter detractors are correct and that most negative comments at the range come from hunters. In essense, all of you are saying that hunters are as bad as non-gun owners.

So, based on this obvious extrapolation, we should examine how we deal with non-gun owners and perhaps we'll find a solution to this quandry. The most successful method of dealing with non-gun owners (and by extension, misinformed hunters) is by education. They are merely miopic in their outlook.

So, how can we educate the "hunter only" crowd? We could A) Call them names like "Elmer Fudd" and belittle their viewpoints, or we can B) educate them properly before asshats like the AHSA influence them.... You pick.

Quoted: Okay, lets suppose for a minute that the hunter detractors are correct and that most negative comments at the range come from hunters. In essense, all of you are saying that hunters are as bad as non-gun owners. So, based on this obvious extrapolation, we should examine how we deal with non-gun owners and perhaps we'll find a solution to this quandry. The most successful method of dealing with non-gun owners (and by extension, misinformed hunters) is by education. They are merely miopic in their outlook. So, how can we educate the "hunter only" crowd? We could A) Call them names like "Elmer Fudd" and belittle their viewpoints, or we can B) educate them properly before asshats like the AHSA influence them.... You pick.

Actually, I am not saying they are as bad as non-gun owners, I am saying they are 10 times worse.  They should know better. Yes, I will belittle their viewpoints when they make the stupid comments already listed by myself and others.  In case you haven't figured it out, the Elmers usually come across as belligerent.  That does not make we want to respond in the manner you suggest.

I believe the AHSA will have more influence over them than we ever will, bunch of Elmer fucking Fudds.  I have no desire to make peace with them.  If any "hunter only" type approaches me and asks about my EBRs in a non-assinine way, I will be more than happy to let him look at and/or shoot it.  It will have to be his move.

As noted by me and others, we aren't the ones that initiate the contact at the range, it is always the aforementioned Elmer Fudds (hunters only).

.

+1 for the "WTF you need that for" type comments... mostly at the "mall" stores (bass pro), and mostly by the "Sporting clays" types buying the 10K double as a "trunk gun".

That's why I love my huntin' buddies. Mostly vets, all rabid RKBA. If IL allowed Class III, I'd be loadin' belts in the evenings, and bustin' targets on the weekends.


Eta - WE NEED A TACK ON THIS ONE.

Quoted: Okay, lets suppose for a minute that the hunter detractors are correct and that most negative comments at the range come from hunters. In essense, all of you are saying that hunters are as bad as non-gun owners. So, based on this obvious extrapolation, we should examine how we deal with non-gun owners and perhaps we'll find a solution to this quandry. The most successful method of dealing with non-gun owners (and by extension, misinformed hunters) is by education. They are merely miopic in their outlook. So, how can we educate the "hunter only" crowd? We could A) Call them names like "Elmer Fudd" and belittle their viewpoints, or we can B) educate them properly before asshats like the AHSA influence them.... You pick.

One group I'm prefectly willing to converse with and one group can piss up a rope.  People who are somewhat apprehensive about  EBRs but are willing to listen after they comment are welcome to take a spin (my .308 is too expensive for a whole mag though) and if they still don't like it.... fine no problem, I complement their weapon and we go on with our day.

Assholes who come over with a hostile attitude and "you people and those damn things are killing us" attitude and comments get "take a hike" from me.  I'm not there to run a re-education class, I'm there to practice.  No amount of argument has any affect anyway.  They come in two styles

1.)  Game hunters (usually older) that frown on magazine fed bolt actions and HATE semi-auto weapons of all varations.  They bitch about you spraying the woods (I don't hunt yet, that really gets 'em), trying to start an army, are you a militia-type, and how you can't hit nothin' with that.  They proceed to fire 10 rounds of whatever win-mag they have and pack up for the day.  

2.)  Old codgers who think the range is theirs.  For whom two shots in two minutes is rapid fire and who never fail to scowl over ejected brass.  Usually they are quiet and leave you alone, but they don't like you or your weapon and have no interest in talking to you (fine by me).  Occasionally I get one who asks with some nasty tone why I bother reloading for that thing.   "Same reason you do" is my general response to that.  After seeing my targets they usually drop it.


I love to show the hardware off, and to let people try it.  I have no intrest in getting into a debate or political battle at the range and thus one group gets a friendly response and one does not.  Simple as that.

Gunowners are our own worst enemy -


Opinion Research Corporation International surveyed more than 1,000 adult Americans from February 18 to 22, 2004:
Do you support Renewal of the Assault Weapons Ban - All respondents 76%, Gun Owners 57%
Do you support Closing the Loopholes that Allow:
* Modified weapons to evade the ban - All 65%, Gunowners 51%
* Pre-1994 weapons to be sold without background checks - All 87%, Gunowners 79%
* Conversion parts kits - All 85%; Gun Owners 73%
* Juveniles from owning assault weapons - All Respondents 85%, Gun Owners 80%
Source



Annenberg surveyed over 28,000 adult Americans from October 2003-April 2004:
Do you support extending "Assault Weapon" Ban - All 71%, Gunowners 64%, NRA members, 46%
Should Federal Gov do more to restrict types of firearms - All 58%, Gunowners 38%, NRA members, 23%
Is there a gunowner in your home - Yes 38%, No 60%
Is the gunowner an NRA member - Yes 8%, No 92%
Source



Field & Stream poll of 2,800 readers from Spring 2003:
Do you consider assault-style rifles to be legitimate sporting guns - Yes 33%, No 67%
Source

Quoted: Gunowners are our own worst enemy -

That's been my observation.  Lots of them want to play with my toys but would vote tomorrow to take them away cause I don't really need them.