This is where I'm at. At the end of the day, it's the internet. It's a stupid thing to get so worked up over a privately owned site operating as the owners see fit. The fact that there are even comments saying there should be term limits to staff, the members should vote on banned members coming back etc, is absolutely laughable

I'd rather see the violation in its original form.  A list of CoC 7 ,2, and 4 doesn't mean much without the context it was given in.  I also can't see how this would work if the thread the violation happened in was nuked.

But if nobody listens, it just gets frustrating.

Based on my experience, no matter how much effort I put into explaining things, they won't listen. As I said earlier,  the wagons are already circled. I'm too old to think that beating my head against the wall feels good.

But, thank you anyway.

I like the sentiment but the two things I'm looking at are value added and potential detriments.

Is this going to help the forum overall or will this be a temporary feel-good measure?

How much time can mods really put into a new section dedicated to people expressing their grievances?

Should Arfcom look at "hiring" new mods specifically for this section or are they going to spread the workload across existing mods?

In regard to "When a member is not replying. A member is responsible for timely replies in the thread they started. If the member becomes absent repeatedly the right to post in the forum may be removed." What happens if/when a mod can't reply in a timely manner? Will another thread be created complaining about that? (I'm being facetious but you get the point)

My first Warning was for responding to someone that had first attacked me. I didn't agree (and told the Mod so at the time) but I learned and moved on.

Warnings 2 - 4 were for cracking jokes that a Mod or Site Staff had their Feelz hurt over. Since cracking jokes is my raison d'etre for being here, that's when I realized that my Banning from the Kinder and Gentler Arfcom will sooner or later be inevitable. I've made peace with that.

I don't bother arguing in the heated threads. Nobody will change their mind so there's no point in getting worked up. So I either just avoid the obviously confrontational threads or leave when they turn that way. None of that is that important to me. It's a mindset that had served me well... up until this year.

At the end of the day, you (the collective you), who are in control over your feelings, emotions, and actions. Getting worked up over a virtual space on the internet, baffles me. I've been here going I. 10 years. So far as I know I have absolutely no warnings. It's not hard to not get warned or banned, just don't do dumb shit

The issue is the same people who can’t objectively and consistently enforce the coc now will be the ones enforcing your rules. It doesn’t fix anything. Your first rule will be used as a scapegoat to shut anything down.

Classic example:  mod makes an ass of himself, somebody wants to point it out, locked for mod bashing.

If previous behavior is any indication this won’t be any sort of fix.

You might be amazed.

Of my latest two Warnings, one was for posting "Missed it by that much." Not even the Meme, just those words.

That means nothing without context

Motorcycle "daredevil" splatted himself during an attempted jump. Not an Arfcom member or relative or friend of one.

I made my post in response.

I have an organizational suggestion. It may be a good idea to have a main "grievance" forum and divide it into 2 subforums, a general forum and a forum strictly for appeals where only the aggrieved parties can post.

That gives you transparency for appeals so that members get a fair shake and mods/staff can't be misrepresented later. And a separate forum for members/mods/staff to hash out other issues, answer questions, and hopefully make progress on some things.


Anyway, I really like the idea. Once it settles in I think it'll help rebuild the relationship and understanding and ease some frustration. I hope GB can find a way to make it work.

I think making fun of someone dying had always been frowned upon here but I could be wrong

I like the concept. Thanks for taking the time to formulate and post.

A little transparency goes a long way. Maybe Ben’s proposal will help facilitate that.

A separate forum would be like giving your kid brother a Nintendo controller that isn't plugged in. The only time they address anything is when it clogs up GD.

Communication between members and staff/mods is a good thing. Transparency on both sides is a good thing.

A forum such as this *could* be a positive step forward if people don't get absorbed by the minutia and try to be barracks house lawyers. Well, that and all the folks who see liberal commie shareblue plots behind every tree in the forest.

@m35ben thanks for your work on this and effort to put it together. More thoughts inbound.

Yer knot migh supervizor!!!

I say,  lettem crash.


It sounds like a civil pit.

It sounds like a good idea.

But whos gonna want to air grieviances / and whats the offender gonna want to do in an all member visible thread?

Which mod is gonna field reponses for general complaints?  It could get spicy.  Quick.

I imagine the powers that be would want to keep issues in a private discussion.

Just a couple thoughts.


And I like your initiative and desire to better the place.

Stutz is worth listening to.

Thank you

no

no

Some things will need to worked out.

Remember the audience will be smaller in the forum and it will be harder to ignore.

Cracking jokes is no laughing matter .

The OP sounds as if he cares about the site and it’s members. Kudos to the OP. The future of Arfcom is up to GoatBoy. Let’s all hope he implements much needed change before it’s too late.

your 1st point: I think it can do good and not be a feel good thing.  Time can only tell.
2nd I have no idea and them talking about this will help to understand how to make time.
3rd I'm going to guess there will be some new mods and maybe staff. That is an admin thing though.
4th I think there could be another thread started but caution should be used as not to start being seen as abusing the forum or members or mods and staff.

No on that. It will depend on how the mod acts of course. Having the thread in the forum can be used to show a pattern of behavior.

This place survives because of the knowledge base of the tech forums and the traffic that flows through GD. It's not going to survive without either. Traffic =  ad money. I'm sure they'd like to excise GD but they know they can't.

This suggestion isn't the end all of all discontent. It will never be prefect but it will push problem solving forward.

that is going to require work and time. Its one of the things I cannot write away with rules.

GD really isnt very interesting anymore.

too much whining.

The poption for emails and IMs should always be thre if there is a privacy concern.

Lol. GD is this place’s moneymaker. It’s never going away.

A big bole should be in the background of the forum.

Okay I'm off to work. I'll try to check in during the day.

That's how I envisioned it.

Question: If a member opts to take an appeal public, does his private correspondence on the issue then become admissible?

Nods sagely, thinking if the lifer thread.

Why would you spend you time helping someone else get rich and do it for free? In the last 20 years this site has grown and shrunk. Limiting free speech and zealous member banning is the final nail in the coffin.

You would be better off starting your own forum and finding a way to focus on members, not advertisers.

I think that could be if only the member brings it up.

I don't care  if the owners are making money. That is their concern not mine and frankly none of our business.
The free speech is a different issue than what we are tackling here.

Edited for better clarity.

Wait, I thought he had a good point there.

Based on what I've read, if I'm reading it right, this idea sounds a lot like our judicial system.

If a cop kept arresting people for yelling wolverines as they drove by, and the charges kept getting thrown out, and arrestees got a 6 month to a year free membership for their trouble, maybe arrests would decrease?

Just now seeing this thread; got some catching up to do.

But I wanted to note I like this idea, as well as the idea you need to be a registered member to see this forum.

And that would preclude moving threads from GD as they would likely contain some non-complaint posts.

Arfcom could stand to learn a thing or two from watching Family Guy.


Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy! I've got to do something.
Man: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.

I think it's a good idea. Thanks for the effort Ben.

I'm going to have to chew on this one a while, but I'll offer some off the cuff feedback.

Sylvan is a pretty smart guy and he said something a while back during a conversation about DoD acquisitions that kind of stuck with me.  Paraphrasing, he basically said that everyone gets it wrong because they get focused on purchasing a product instead of purchasing an effect.  In the end they spend a bunch of money for a product that never seems to fit the role for which it was intended.  I kind of feel like that is where we are at with this idea.  It looks good on paper, but what is the specific effect that is desired, and will this solution deliver that effect?  It is okay if the answers to those questions are "I don't know" and "No" at this point because this is all being fleshed out.

I would like to propose a concept of something similar, but different.  Use a new forum as an analog of the recycle bin on your computer.  Locked/banned account goes in and has a chance to work the situation out with mod/staff participation, hopefully directly with the particular mod/staff that did the lock/ban.  If the situation gets resolved in a satisfactory manner, the account is removed from the 'recycle bin' and rejoins the general population.  If the situation cannot be resolved then the lock/ban stays in place.  For locks, that would last for the duration of the lock.  Bans would become permanent, or as permanent as 'permabans' are as they exist today.  Goatboy has assured us that there is a path to redemption in most cases.

In practice this could be implemented by locking the locked/banned account out of everything except the recycle bin, or making that the only forum visible to the account.  The notification message for the lock/ban could be amended to direct the member to the forum and encourage their participation if they wish to appeal or discuss the disciplinary action.  Staff could potentially oversee and notify mods that their presence is required if they are not hatching the forum.  Actually, I like the concept of Staff directing traffic for this use case as it takes it out of the hands of mods who would most likely be engaged directly in conversation with testy users.  I think it would potentially add an insulating layer that may allow for a more dispassionate view on how things progress.

This would specifically address the issue of users emailing or IM'ing a mod or staff about their action and having that correspondence go into a black hole.  This places it out in the open, with Staff oversight.  

Obviously there is a lot more work to do to flesh it out before it resembles a solution to anything, but I present it as an idea and basic concept framework.

A good idea. Maybe it could be separate from the other and just for banned members.