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Link Posted: 1/25/2011 7:44:17 AM EDT
[#1]
tag
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 7:46:08 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Added to the FOPA wiki page. Feel free to edit as appropriate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act#See_also


I won't edit wiki from here (I'm at work), but I'd suggest that you add a link to the youtube video as a reference to the part of the article you added.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 7:46:48 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've saved it , does anyone have a boilerplate message to send to my congressman?


First draft.  Feel free to edit as necessary:

Dear Rep. XXXXX,

    What would you do if you discovered that a law passed by Congress and signed by the President included an amendment that had actually been rejected by the House of Representatives? What would you do if the Congressional Record and the enacted law reflected the exact opposite of the archived video of Congressional debate and vote?  Would you try to rectify the situation even if it is a law that you may like?  As discussed below, there is such a law that includes an amendment that was specifically rejected by the House of Representatives.  Although the amendment was flatly rejected, said amendment was still included in the final legislation.  I want to know what you plan to do about this injustice.

    On April 10, 1986, the House of Representatives voted to pass the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act (FOPA) Pub.L. 99-308, 100 Stat. 449, enacted May 19, 1986, codified at 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq.  

    During debate, Rep. William Hughes presented an amendment that is now commonly known as the Hughes Amendment.  The House voted down this amendment as seen in this archived video that has been posted to the internet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Mx2UcSEvQ.  Despite the fact that the House rejected this amendment, Rep. Charles Rangel claimed that it passed and included the amendment in the final version of the bill.

    Below, I quote from the Congressional Record:
8. H.AMDT.777 to H.R.4332 An amendment to make it unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun except in the case of a machinegun that was lawfully possessed before the date of enactment.
Sponsor: Rep Hughes, William J. [NJ-2] (introduced 4/10/1986) Cosponsors (None)
Latest Major Action: 4/10/1986 House amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment Passed in Committee of the Whole by Voice Vote.  (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d099:HR04332:).

    As you can see, the Congressional Record, the enacted law, and the archived video do not agree.  The Hughes Amendment was rejected. Do you think this is the type of representation that your constituents deserve?

    Please contact me at your earliest convenience and inform me what you plan to do to correct this travesty.  Your reputation and the reputations of your fellow Congress members are at stake.

Respectfully,

Pissed off constiuent



That is pretty good. I will continue putting mine together too. I think it would be helpful if we had a few different letters.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 7:47:22 AM EDT
[#4]
tag
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 7:48:16 AM EDT
[#5]
Anyone want to craft an intelligible explanation of what happened, what this video shows and and example of the previous transcript and a link to this video that we can post on other forums and social networking sites?????
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 7:52:46 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Somehow,this needs to hit mainstream media. Anybody try to get Drudge to link to it? Perhaps he'd be up for showing some Rangel jackassery.

 Maybe it'll make him cry but even have Beck show the lack of democracy...not even make a big deal out of guns themselves,just the entirely undemocratic nature of the beast.



Ahhhhhhhh.....About that....  The mainstream Media will spin this as Machineguns littering the streets, and people dying in droves, and completely ignore the REALITY that since 1934 there have only been TWO crimes committed with Privately owned, legally obtained machineguns.  A bigger fear at this point would be Congress deciding to Bring the Stamp tax to TODAYS level.... What if they repeal 922(o) but instead make the NFA tax $20K instead of $200.00??
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 7:52:49 AM EDT
[#7]



Quoted:



Quoted:



There is no political will to re-open the registry.  Neither the Republicans or Democrats are really interested in arming the lawful citizens of this country.  The Hughes Amendment made it to the bill and Congress went ahead and made it law, signed by the President.  That shows you how much both sides think of regular citizens and their rights.

 




So we should do nothing?  attempt nothing?



That defeatist attitude is not what made America great,  but no worries,  there are others that are willing to carry your load and shout it from the rooftops.
Defeatist?  Not me.  But I'm a realist.  This video in itself will change nothing even though it's a great rallying point for the voting base.  Both sides of the aisle will be more than happy to kick us under the bus on this issue.  It can be done but it won't be an easy or quick win.  





 
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 7:55:00 AM EDT
[#8]
Was Robert's Rules adopted as the parlimentary authority for our congress?

If so, what rules specifically were violated? (it is over 700 pages)

Is there precedent for invalidating proceedings that violated the rules?
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 7:58:43 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Was Robert's Rules adopted as the parlimentary authority for our congress?

If so, what rules specifically were violated? (it is over 700 pages)

Is there precedent for invalidating proceedings that violated the rules?


This is being looked into by people that have a much greater knowledge than I where Roberts Rules are concerned.  However, I can say that Roberts Rules were adopted and in use at the time of this sham.  They've been in use for a VERY long time.  

There are several levels of precedence for invalidating proceedings that violate Roberts Rules.  There are also actions of remedy to address such matters.  This is what we are looking at now.  When I have specifics, I'll post them.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 8:00:33 AM EDT
[#10]
I would suggest sending this to Volokh and Pajama's Media as well. Let's get the word out.

Link Posted: 1/25/2011 8:01:23 AM EDT
[#11]
TAG.  Fook the media, it's we the people not we the writers who get our paychecks from libtard billionares who become politicians.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 8:03:30 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've saved it , does anyone have a boilerplate message to send to my congressman?


First draft.  Feel free to edit as necessary:

Dear Rep. XXXXX,

    <snip>

Respectfully,

Pissed off constiuent



That is pretty good. I will continue putting mine together too. I think it would be helpful if we had a few different letters.


It's a start.  It needs more detail when referring to the video.  I've watched it, but I'm not sure I know enough about what is going on to provide a written record that my Congressperson could follow.  And I don't want to screw that part.  I'll have to watch it a few more times and re-draft.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 8:04:09 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
I would suggest sending this to Volokh and Pajama's Media as well. Let's get the word out.



I just got off the phone with two bloggers.  I'm going to reach out to a few to see what I can do.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 8:05:53 AM EDT
[#14]
With all of the hits that Prince Law is getting with their blog we should pass it along to them as well.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 8:06:25 AM EDT
[#15]



Quoted:



Quoted:

Was Robert's Rules adopted as the parlimentary authority for our congress?



If so, what rules specifically were violated? (it is over 700 pages)



Is there precedent for invalidating proceedings that violated the rules?




This is being looked into by people that have a much greater knowledge than I where Roberts Rules are concerned.  However, I can say that Roberts Rules were adopted and in use at the time of this sham.  They've been in use for a VERY long time.  



There are several levels of precedence for invalidating proceedings that violate Roberts Rules.  There are also actions of remedy to address such matters.  This is what we are looking at now.  When I have specifics, I'll post them.
Rangel had no business even presiding if that was all the better he could keep a lid on proceedings.  It would be great if the whole thing got tossed but I'll not hold my breath.  Lots of people in both parties have a deep interest in keeping us little people unarmed.  Still, this video clearly shows that the whole thing was a sham and a contentious mess when it happened.  How many years have gone by where people who said the vote was a problem were derided as tin foil wearing kooks?  Well, it was a sham and there will be quite a few less people laughing about it now.  It makes everyone involved look like fools.  





 
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 8:30:25 AM EDT
[#16]
Someone that actually understands the intricacies of what happened in the video needs to put together a step by step summary. I am a pretty intelligent guy but I haven't seen an explanation in this thread sufficiently detailing what happened. Referencing time marks in the video would be very helpful when explaining the details.

No one wants to sift through 15 pages and spend hours trying to piece it all together. So, if someone could detail it out in easy to understand succinct language, then you'd have a much better chance of getting the story out and getting people interested and involved. After you do this, I would recommend starting a new thread with the original post being the summary and details of exactly went wrong in that video. Then people could take that and copy it and post it on numerous other message-boards or email it, vs. sifting through 15 pages trying to find the details.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 8:33:06 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Page 13 is mine!
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1141038

I was gonna say it but i was trying to be nice...
 


We've got to win this fight TOGETHER!
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 8:36:32 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Someone that actually understands the intricacies of what happened in the video needs to put together a step by step summary. I am a pretty intelligent guy but I haven't seen an explanation in this thread sufficiently detailing what happened. Referencing time marks in the video would be very helpful when explaining the details.

No one wants to sift through 15 pages and spend hours trying to piece it all together. So, if someone could detail it out in easy to understand succinct language, then you'd have a much better chance of getting the story out and getting people interested and involved. After you do this, I would recommend starting a new thread with the original post being the summary and details of exactly went wrong in that video. Then people could take that and copy it and post it on numerous other message-boards or email it, vs. sifting through 15 pages trying to find the details.


That is what we intend to do.

but I didn't want to make those who have the skills to pull this togeather wait on my availability to put a polished product out... I'm not a video editor by any streatch of the imagination, and while I can do the work its very very slow.

Many hands make light work....

Link Posted: 1/25/2011 8:37:33 AM EDT
[#19]





Quoted:



Someone that actually understands the intricacies of what happened in the video needs to put together a step by step summary. I am a pretty intelligent guy but I haven't seen an explanation in this thread sufficiently detailing what happened. Referencing time marks in the video would be very helpful when explaining the details.





No one wants to sift through 15 pages and spend hours trying to piece it all together. So, if someone could detail it out in easy to understand succinct language, then you'd have a much better chance of getting the story out and getting people interested and involved. After you do this, I would recommend starting a new thread with the original post being the summary and details of exactly went wrong in that video. Then people could take that and copy it and post it on numerous other message-boards or email it, vs. sifting through 15 pages trying to find the details.



Not a bad idea!
 



Edit: oops.  beat me
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 8:41:52 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Someone that actually understands the intricacies of what happened in the video needs to put together a step by step summary. I am a pretty intelligent guy but I haven't seen an explanation in this thread sufficiently detailing what happened. Referencing time marks in the video would be very helpful when explaining the details.

No one wants to sift through 15 pages and spend hours trying to piece it all together. So, if someone could detail it out in easy to understand succinct language, then you'd have a much better chance of getting the story out and getting people interested and involved. After you do this, I would recommend starting a new thread with the original post being the summary and details of exactly went wrong in that video. Then people could take that and copy it and post it on numerous other message-boards or email it, vs. sifting through 15 pages trying to find the details.


AJAX22 does a nice editorial breakdown of the transcript on page 5 (which I saved)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1013300&page=5

AJAX22...thanks!
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 8:49:16 AM EDT
[#21]
I read the whole thread and copied the video...
I shared this on reddit in the guns section... go in and upvote it...
http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/f8sxp/fopa_hughes_amendment_vote_april_10_1986_video/
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 9:00:44 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Someone that actually understands the intricacies of what happened in the video needs to put together a step by step summary. I am a pretty intelligent guy but I haven't seen an explanation in this thread sufficiently detailing what happened. Referencing time marks in the video would be very helpful when explaining the details.

No one wants to sift through 15 pages and spend hours trying to piece it all together. So, if someone could detail it out in easy to understand succinct language, then you'd have a much better chance of getting the story out and getting people interested and involved. After you do this, I would recommend starting a new thread with the original post being the summary and details of exactly went wrong in that video. Then people could take that and copy it and post it on numerous other message-boards or email it, vs. sifting through 15 pages trying to find the details.


AJAX22 does a nice editorial breakdown of the transcript on page 5 (which I saved)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1013300&page=5

AJAX22...thanks!


That is not gonna cut it. Most people have a very short attention span for things they do not understand. You have to provide a brief overview of the situation using language that anyone can understand. First you have to provide a 3 or 4 sentence executive summary of what the issue is. Then you have to very succinctly and briefly backup the executive summary with a high-level summary of the evidence. Basically we need an executive summary of 3 or 4 sentences. Then no more than 4 paragraphs explaining what happened in the video. That's it. Pretend you have 3 minutes on an elevator to get someone interested in this. Then once you get people interested, then they can investigate it further and in more detail with the links you provide to the supporting evidence.

Link Posted: 1/25/2011 9:01:34 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Okay folks, I'm currently stirring up a shit storm.  Everyone download that video if you can and hang on to it.  I expect it'll be pulled soon.  We must retain copies of this everywhere.  I just got off the phone with a Congressperson who is going to discuss this with the Speaker of the House today.  There is an avenue of approach to have this removed on the basis of how Rangel violated Roberts Rules.  

There are people who have lost their freedom, their Rights and their lives over this bullshit.  Rangel has no fucking excuse for what he has done... none at all.  He needs to step down right fucking now.  24 years....   for 24 years this sham has been forced upon us.  One way or another, the Hughes Amendment is going to die.


I just came.



Link Posted: 1/25/2011 9:02:06 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
So can anyone explain what this could all mean for us? Won't this just be ignored?


We have avenues of attack with this.  It's not going to be pretty and Congress would do well to repeal it before a LOT of people on both sides of the isle are strung up with very uncomfortable questions.  

If Rangel was smart, he'd demand a repeal before we use this to totally ass rape any chance of his re-election in the future.


Do you really think his constituents care about gun bans?
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 9:04:41 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Okay folks, I'm currently stirring up a shit storm.  Everyone download that video if you can and hang on to it.  I expect it'll be pulled soon.  We must retain copies of this everywhere.  I just got off the phone with a Congressperson who is going to discuss this with the Speaker of the House today.  There is an avenue of approach to have this removed on the basis of how Rangel violated Roberts Rules.  

There are people who have lost their freedom, their Rights and their lives over this bullshit.  Rangel has no fucking excuse for what he has done... none at all.  He needs to step down right fucking now.  24 years....   for 24 years this sham has been forced upon us.  One way or another, the Hughes Amendment is going to die.

What can we do to help you ?
 


Link Posted: 1/25/2011 9:05:59 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So can anyone explain what this could all mean for us? Won't this just be ignored?


We have avenues of attack with this.  It's not going to be pretty and Congress would do well to repeal it before a LOT of people on both sides of the isle are strung up with very uncomfortable questions.  

If Rangel was smart, he'd demand a repeal before we use this to totally ass rape any chance of his re-election in the future.


Do you really think his constituents care about gun bans?


Technically I am one of his constituants (untill they hand me my diploma I still technically am at Columbia)

;)
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 9:19:22 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
With all of the hits that Prince Law is getting with their blog we should pass it along to them as well.


Damned god idea, sir!
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 9:26:53 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:

Quoted:
Okay folks, I'm currently stirring up a shit storm.  Everyone download that video if you can and hang on to it.  I expect it'll be pulled soon.  We must retain copies of this everywhere.  I just got off the phone with a Congressperson who is going to discuss this with the Speaker of the House today.  There is an avenue of approach to have this removed on the basis of how Rangel violated Roberts Rules.  

There are people who have lost their freedom, their Rights and their lives over this bullshit.  Rangel has no fucking excuse for what he has done... none at all.  He needs to step down right fucking now.  24 years....   for 24 years this sham has been forced upon us.  One way or another, the Hughes Amendment is going to die.

What can we do to help you ?
 




+1


Link Posted: 1/25/2011 9:28:44 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Someone that actually understands the intricacies of what happened in the video needs to put together a step by step summary. I am a pretty intelligent guy but I haven't seen an explanation in this thread sufficiently detailing what happened. Referencing time marks in the video would be very helpful when explaining the details.

No one wants to sift through 15 pages and spend hours trying to piece it all together. So, if someone could detail it out in easy to understand succinct language, then you'd have a much better chance of getting the story out and getting people interested and involved. After you do this, I would recommend starting a new thread with the original post being the summary and details of exactly went wrong in that video. Then people could take that and copy it and post it on numerous other message-boards or email it, vs. sifting through 15 pages trying to find the details.


AJAX22 does a nice editorial breakdown of the transcript on page 5 (which I saved)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1013300&page=5

AJAX22...thanks!


That is not gonna cut it. Most people have a very short attention span for things they do not understand. You have to provide a brief overview of the situation using language that anyone can understand. First you have to provide a 3 or 4 sentence executive summary of what the issue is. Then you have to very succinctly and briefly backup the executive summary with a high-level summary of the evidence. Basically we need an executive summary of 3 or 4 sentences. Then no more than 4 paragraphs explaining what happened in the video. That's it. Pretend you have 3 minutes on an elevator to get someone interested in this. Then once you get people interested, then they can investigate it further and in more detail with the links you provide to the supporting evidence.



At 6:00 minutes there is a motion "for the committee to rise" (so Hughes can have more time to discuss his Amendment). A verbal vote is taken and Rangel says the Ayes have it. A recorded vote then shows the Nays had it. This shows how crooked Rangel is when calling the votes.

Later the MG Ban is voted on at 8:20 on the video. This is where the real crime happens: Rangel claims the Ayes have it and the ban is adopted. Rangel pauses before dropping the gavel and someone is heard saying "Let it go, let it go." The gavel drops and someone asks for a recorded vote. Rangel ignores him and a recorded vote is never taken. The congressional record shows that the amendment is adopted.

Then the amended bill is voted on.Rangel says the NOs have it and the bill is dead. This time Rangel allows the request for a recorded vote. The recorded vote shows the bill passes.

This stuff happens all the time. We can use this video to persuade public opinion on how previous gun control laws were pushed through the house without proper procedure.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 10:13:47 AM EDT
[#30]
If this can really be pushed as generating revenue as opposed to allowing the purchase of new MGs this might really gain some momentum but unfortunately I think MGs themselves are political kryptonite.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 10:18:02 AM EDT
[#31]
Kinda makes you wonder how many other bills and laws have been passed like this.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 10:21:12 AM EDT
[#32]
Email sent to my Rep....of course MY Rep is Frank Pallone..who is a complete Anti...but it's been sent nonetheless.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 10:24:52 AM EDT
[#33]
Can anyone reference any news articles from 1986 where the nay voters voiced their displeasure with the procedure?



Who was one the committee? Surely there's still a nay voter still in Congress or in the public who would comment on it.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 10:27:13 AM EDT
[#34]
Edit to follow up on Hoosier's post:

Where is that letter/article from the NRA that was written right after this was railroaded through?  Can someone post a link?

I'd like to compare the NRA's interpretation to the video.

Found it:



Link Posted: 1/25/2011 10:29:54 AM EDT
[#35]
TAG.  I'll be sending this to my Congressman and Senator with my demand that they act now to reverse the wrong.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 10:32:26 AM EDT
[#36]
Gentlemen,

please remember that alot of important people on AR15.com do not
come to General Discussion because of all of the silliness.

Please make sure that this is cross-posted in each state's hometown forum.

I have already started a thread in the Tennessee forum.




Link Posted: 1/25/2011 10:39:41 AM EDT
[#37]
Based on the interpretation from the NRA letter I linked above, it appears that the NRA believes the massive "no" vote was to shoot down the motion by Hughes to postpone consideration of the entire FOPA.  

The tragedy then occurs at 8:20 when Rangel accepts his interpretation of the voice vote and doesn't allow the recorded vote.  Funny how his interpretation of every other voice vote was dead wrong.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 10:44:53 AM EDT
[#38]
I can't believe our gov't laws are decided on by who can yell the loudest. Is this Elementary school all over again?

Link Posted: 1/25/2011 10:45:08 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Rangel pauses before dropping the gavel and someone is heard saying "Let it go, let it go." The gavel drops and someone asks for a recorded vote.


IANAL, but if it's called for a recorded vote after the gavel drops the chairman doesn't have to honor it does he?


That being said, I'm pretty certain I hear, amidst the noise, just prior to the gavel sounding, "corded vote", as if a person is demanding a recorded vote, but was ignored prior to the gavel drop.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 10:47:18 AM EDT
[#40]
If arfcom pulls this off, it will be the greatest thing they have ever done.

Ajax and Hard Rock have done more than I have seen any organization do for our rights.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 10:47:48 AM EDT
[#41]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Mx2UcSEvQ



I've ripped the video to my hard drive.




Lets get Hughes amendment repealed!




EDIT: I've hosted the same video on my youtube account. I will also upload it to my own webhost.

MY YOUTUBE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlkPsfGGTt8
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 10:58:38 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Kinda makes you wonder how many other bills and laws have been passed like this.


Murtha did something similar.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 10:59:17 AM EDT
[#43]
I watched it. What the fuck does it mean besides those tards are one big cluster fuck?

It is up on a few forums already.
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 11:01:52 AM EDT
[#44]



Quoted:



Quoted:




Quoted:

Was this an issue in 86?


Quoted:




Quoted:


Quoted:




Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:

watching it now




So, can someone explain for me, play by play, where the smoking gun is? I watched the whole thing-the action was moving pretty fast and to me all I saw was a contest over who made the loudest voice vote to a speaker with an agenda. How can a court go back to '86 and determine the intent of the legislators based on audio and vote counts if they conflict in one minute and don't the next?



I hope I'm missing something really obvious here and my unfamiliarity with the fine points of Order and the bill are preventing me from seeing something in plain sight.
it is at the 8:20 mark where the voice vote takes place.  At the 8:40 mark, someone asks for recorded vote and Rangel smirks and ignores the request.







I guess the question then is: Will a court interfere with the internal workings of Congress? Getting a court to strike down a law because of a procedural technicality is going to be tough. Maybe not impossible, but tough. Rangle is a shitstain and knew what he was doing, but I'm not completely confident that a federal court will strike down a much loved machine gun ban because he was a little sneaky and underhanded so long ago. I'd love to be wrong but the cynic in me grew after SCOTUS refused recently to stop New Jersey from jailing gun owners and seizing their firearms for traveling thru the state.





Problem is, there's nothing unconstitutional about it, and separation of powers prevents the judiciary from meddling just because they feel like it.
 




To be clear, the law was unconstitutional-though that's a separate debate. The act of purposely sabotaging a vote isn't unconstitutional-but that's not what we are talking about here. The subject at hand is whether or not the Hughes Amendment banning civilian post 86 machineguns is actually law or not. My question is how far will a federal court be willing to stick it's nose into legislative proceedings to fix the problem....


Indeed, what I meant is that there is nothing unconstitutional about the purported snafu in the congress, since the billw as ultimately voted on in its entirely both by the house and senate.  



There can be no question whatsoever that since the Hughes amendment was voted on by both houses of congress and signed into law by the president, that it is actually a law.





 




 


I find this whole thing very very fishy, precisely because there was no issue in 1986.



The goings on of the congress get extremely high scrutiny, and it is absurd that none of the participants, their staffers, etc, would have taken issue with something being done in opposition to a recorded vote.



It looks like people have just confused a procedural vote with the vote to adopt the Hughes amendment.





 




My understanding is that there was an issue in 1986, but that it was not really discussed by the media.  And with no internet or talk radio, it died.



ETA: According to my roommate (who was a House page in 2002 and knows procedure well), as for adopting the amendment, there was only a yea or nay vote.  The chair/speaker refused to acknowledge the request for a roll call vote.  The ball, again, was dropped when the floor voted to adopt the Volker substitution.


Interesting.



It looks like it requires 1/5 of the present reps to back a request for a roll call vote. It's possible that there simply weren't enough who had risen to request it.



A good strategy if you're not opposed in principle to something passing, but don't want to be recorded as being for it, personally.
 
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 11:01:55 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Kinda makes you wonder how many other bills and laws have been passed like this.


Murtha did something similar.


like the recent we "deamed it passed " so it passed ?

Link Posted: 1/25/2011 11:02:37 AM EDT
[#46]



Quoted:



Quoted:

Does anyone have a copy of the House Bill finally voted upon by the full House?




Still looking for complete copy but here is a summary:



http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d099:HR04332:



What's shocking is this under amendments:




8. H.AMDT.777 to H.R.4332 An amendment to make it unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun except in the case of a machinegun that was lawfully possessed before the date of enactment.

Sponsor: Rep Hughes, William J. [NJ-2] (introduced 4/10/1986)      Cosponsors (None)

Latest Major Action: 4/10/1986 House amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment Passed in Committee of the Whole by Voice Vote.




Here's the thing... the video and transcripts are proof that it didn't.... the entire recorded vote was ignored completely.



Talk about massive failure. Corruption knows no bounds... the thing is completely unconstitutional. In my opinion as an American citizen (which apparently doesn't mean much anymore) the amendment never passed and is invalid.


How can it be unconstitutional if it isn't against anything in the constitution?



The amendment did pass, both in the house and the senate, and was signed into law by President Reagan.
 
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 11:03:41 AM EDT
[#47]
Tag
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 11:05:49 AM EDT
[#48]

Posted to Reno4x4.com (gun portion)



Hometown Nevada (arfcom)


And Saiga-12 forum


/Also emailed to a couple gun buddies


//Wonder if I can get Reid to send a form letter reply to this...?

Link Posted: 1/25/2011 11:06:03 AM EDT
[#49]



Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

I have a question, on the very remote chance anyone on here has a firm knowledge of the procedures of the House.



My question is: what was the significance of the vote that lost 298-124?





Examining the congressional record on the link provided, it appears that that vote was not to adopt the Hughes Amendment, but instead a vote on a motion by Hughes that the "committee now rise."



Later on, the issue of the Hughes Amendment (quote- "this vote on machine gun bans") is actually put to a vote, and wins 268 to 136.



I don't have time just now to research this further, but I will later and make a definitive report.







The roll call vote was to remove the Hughes Amendment from Committee to put it to the Floor to add or not.  My understanding was that it was indeed removed from committee even after having lost.  Then speaker asks for a yea and nay vote to add the amendment.  He says the yeas have it, a roll call vote is requested, but ignored.  The last vote was on whether or not to adopt the Volker (sp) Substitute (containing the amendment), which passed in the roll call vote.  My understanding was that the Volker substitute was ready to be voted in without the amendment, and many Representatives did not realize the amendment had indeed been added, hence the adoption of the substitute even after the unclear yea/nay regarding adding the amendment.




I want the wife to address some of this to clarify and I may be wrong here but I believe that since Roberts Rules were violated with the amendment roll call vote being ignored, basically Roberts Rules being abandoned without a vote... it may be possible to address now.  I don't know though since the proper way was attempted and shot down.  Basically, if someone puts a motion out, it must be addressed either by a second or by the chair.  The chair ignored the motion for a roll call vote and never gave the chance for a second.  Given this, it's possible that we may be able to attack this on that level.  



As it stands, due to the violation of Roberts Rules by Rangel, the MG ban technically is invalid.  Now, we just have to see if Congress will address this matter or if they view voted upon procedures just a convenience when they want them to be and ignore them the rest of the time.  If the latter, we have a serious problem that will have to be addressed.  If the former, we have a very real chance of having the MG ban removed.  



Either way, Congress needs to address this matter and fast.  I intend on ruining some people with this footage if they don't address it.


Technically? You mean "hypothetically."



Unless you can point out which aspect of the technicalities of the congress, which is to say, the recorded rules they go by, then surely you've gravely misused the word "technically."



Technically, since the amendment was included in the final bills that were voted on by both houses of congress and then signed into law by the president, it is technically valid, because technically, that's how laws gain force in this country, by being voted on and then signed.



Nobody is going to be "ruined" by anything that didn't rate "ruining" them with twenty five years ago when it actually happened.
 
Link Posted: 1/25/2011 11:10:14 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Based on the interpretation from the NRA letter I linked above, it appears that the NRA believes the massive "no" vote was to shoot down the motion by Hughes to postpone consideration of the entire FOPA.  

The tragedy then occurs at 8:20 when Rangel accepts his interpretation of the voice vote and doesn't allow the recorded vote.  Funny how his interpretation of every other voice vote was dead wrong.


I've updated the FOPA wikipedia page to reflect this. Citing the NRA's letter would be a nice touch.
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