Quoted: Quoted: A 20ga worked fine on Kurt Cobain.  Assuming proper ammo it would work fine at living room range. The best thing Kurt Cobain ever released was the safety.

Ouch!

That is what I use, Remington 1100 LT-20, 20" barrel, youth model.  The first gun my parents ever gave me, runs like a champ.

Goose

Quoted: ...  Dont let the "shootin water" tests distract you from using what your happy with.

Now there's some great advice!

Whatever you do, don't let those pesky "fact" things confuse you.  

If you're happy with a .22 single shot, stick with it.

Everyone keeps refering to OPs box o' truth   for load preformance. 00 went through something like 6 boards.  Am i the only one who see a problem with 6 boards? Most interior walls are two boards with no insulation. You must know what is beyond your target. Is the wall behind the suspect occupied? Children, spouse, guests etc?  Everyone is laughing at  stuff like game load. I  take it no one has ever seen or expeirenced  a shotgun wound to the face and chest from game load ? You are responsible for your shot until it stops, no expections.


J

Quoted: Everyone keeps refering to OPs box o' truth   for load preformance. 00 went through something like 6 boards.  Am i the only one who see a problem with 6 boards? Most interior walls are two boards with no insulation. You must know what is beyond your target. Is the wall behind the suspect occupied? Children, spouse, guests etc?  Everyone is laughing at  stuff like game load. I  take it no one has ever seen or expeirenced  a shotgun wound to the face and chest from game load ? You are responsible for your shot until it stops, no expections. J

I was think the same thing.

I would like to see the same test with more space between the boards.

Have a 20 gauge coach gun loaded with #6 handy. There is some 00 nearby if I need a reload.

Quoted: Everyone keeps refering to OPs box o' truth   for load preformance. 00 went through something like 6 boards.  Am i the only one who see a problem with 6 boards? Most interior walls are two boards with no insulation. You must know what is beyond your target. Is the wall behind the suspect occupied? Children, spouse, guests etc?  Everyone is laughing at  stuff like game load. I  take it no one has ever seen or expeirenced  a shotgun wound to the face and chest from game load ? You are responsible for your shot until it stops, no expections. J

You are correct.  00 Buck is a penetrator.

But folks keep forgetting this important fact:  If a defensive round doesn't penetrate drywall, it isn't going to penetrate a bad guy.

And if it doesn't penetrate a bad guy enough to reach his vital organs, it isn't going to STOP him.

Birdshot is a poor defensive load.  One police officer reported seeing a guy take a load of 12 gauge #8 shot at across-the-room distance in the torso.  The guy wasn't even knocked down, but was still walking around and talking when the EMTs arrived.

Long story short, the birdshot did not STOP him from whatever he was doing.  Sure, it made a nasty, shallow wound, but it didn't Stop him.

Birdshot is for little birds.  Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, use 00 Buckshot.

It is designed to reach the vital organs of bad guys.

And, be careful of what is behind your target, for, as you say, you are responsible for every shot fired.  

But, until someone invents a "phaser" like on Star Trek, any weapon that Stops bad guys, will also penetrate walls.

Quoted: Quoted: I was think the same thing. I would like to see the same test with more space between the boards. Indeed.

How soon we forget.

I did tests with the walls spread out at normal room distances.  Unfortunitely, the thread is lost in never-never land.

The results were just as I stated.  00 Buck penetrated several walls.  Birdshot penetrated one wall and was stopped by the paper covering on the second wall.

The real problem isn't in how far the rounds penetrate, but HOW EFFECTIVE THEY ARE AFTER PENETRATION.

This is true.

But if birdshot cannot even penetrate a few inches of drywall, it is not going to penetrate a human torso and reach vital organs.

Throwing around the BoT like it's a fact of life and the final answer in wall penetration is a huge mistake.

I am not "Throwing around the BoT like it's a fact of life and the final answer".  I am merely conducting tests and reporting what happens.

The "huge mistake" is people that give opinions based on what they "heard" or "think", but without any facts, based upon experience.

Don't agree with my tests?  Do some of your own and report the results.

I use a wrist rocket with hydrochloric acid paintballs. shoot em in the left eye, then when they grab their eye with their right hand, kick em in the balls....

I keep a mossberg 500 in 20 gauge 18 in bbl, closest in the BR.  I keep mine full of #5 birdshot an 5 slugs in a web ammo carrier on the stock.

Quoted: You are correct.  00 Buck is a penetrator. But folks keep forgetting this important fact:  If a defensive round doesn't penetrate drywall, it isn't going to penetrate a bad guy. And if it doesn't penetrate a bad guy enough to reach his vital organs, it isn't going to STOP him.

It's amazing how simple this logic is, yet people often seem to forget or ignore it.

Quoted: Quoted: You are correct.  00 Buck is a penetrator. But folks keep forgetting this important fact:  If a defensive round doesn't penetrate drywall, it isn't going to penetrate a bad guy. And if it doesn't penetrate a bad guy enough to reach his vital organs, it isn't going to STOP him. It's amazing how simple this logic is, yet people often seem to forget or ignore it.

You are correct.

Look at how many people, even in this one thread, continue to say, "I keep my shotgun loaded with #8s".

Can they not read?

Quoted: Look at how many people, even in this one thread, continue to say, "I keep my shotgun loaded with #8s"

Or rubber buckshot and slugs

Did the 20 gauge make it into any of the stopping power studies by Marshall and Sanow? That might gives us better data.  

Yeah I know some people say their study is flawed but's still based on real shootings.

I think a lot would also depend on the barrel of whatever shotgun you're talking about. An 18" cylinder bore might not pattern as well, but I've got a 870 with a 28" full choke and it will make a nasty hole through just about anything at close range. Even with birdshot.

Quoted: I think a lot would also depend on the barrel of whatever shotgun you're talking about. An 18" cylinder bore might not pattern as well, but I've got a 870 with a 28" full choke and it will make a nasty hole through just about anything at close range. Even with birdshot.

Let's look at this, if we could, no personal offense, southeast_scrounger.

"You think"?  Have you done any real-world tests to verify this belief?  If not, then you shouldn't state it as fact.

"Might not"?  Have you done tests?  If not, what do you base this supposition upon?  At across-the-room distances all chokes will pattern around 2 to 3 inches.  I know because I've shot at this distance and measured the spreads.

"Will make"?  Have you done tests?  Shooting at what distance and into what?

"Just about anything"?  That's kind of a broad group of materials.

I've shot drywall and pine boards, and steel front doors, and sand, and other stuff with shotguns.  I try to test real-world materials that we might actually see in real life.  I don't shoot watermelons, computer monitors, pumpkins, etc, because I don't expect to have to shoot those in real life situations.

We all know that if you hold a shotgun inches from a target and fire a load of birdshot, it will make a big hole.

But against human bad guys, at across-the-room distances, birdshot is a poor performer.

I've shot a couple of old cars and quite a few pine trees with various loads just to see what they would do.  20 gauge 00 and #4 buckshot penetrated the car door and it tears up pine trees pretty well too.  If it will penetrate a car door at less than 20 yards that's good enough for me to believe it would work fine in the ranges found inside my house.

That said, I kept a Mossberg 12 gauge loaded with number 4 Buck as the first round and then 00 for the next three under the bed (no kids at home) and a S&W .357 beside the bed.    

Quoted: "You think"?  Have you done any real-world tests to verify this belief?  If not, then you shouldn't state it as fact. "Might not"?  Have you done tests?  If not, what do you base this supposition upon?  At across-the-room distances all chokes will pattern around 2 to 3 inches.  I know because I've shot at this distance and measured the spreads. "Will make"?  Have you done tests?  Shooting at what distance and into what? "Just about anything"?  That's kind of a broad group of materials. I've shot drywall and pine boards, and steel front doors, and sand, and other stuff with shotguns.  I try to test real-world materials that we might actually see in real life.  I don't shoot watermelons, computer monitors, pumpkins, etc, because I don't expect to have to shoot those in real life situations. We all know that if you hold a shotgun inches from a target and fire a load of birdshot, it will make a big hole. But against human bad guys, at across-the-room distances, birdshot is a poor performer.

I think your tests are great info, but they are test done under controlled conditions.  Not that there is any thing wrong with that.

Are you saying unless one has done a test or can prove it to be fact by showing their results it is not true?

Come on it is a discussion form and people are only posting there opinions, I would think on there own experiences.

I see that any thing any body post that is not consisted with your findings you dislike.

Quoted: Or rubber buckshot and slugs

As for svi40
Have you ever been shot with rubber buck shot?

It has a way of pacifying a person.

You should get some and have a friend of yours shot you in the ass with it. Then come back and start a thread about what you think.

Quoted: I think your tests are great info, but they are test done under controlled conditions.  Not that there is any thing wrong with that.

Thanks.  That is what I strive for...controlled conditions.  That is how you make valid comparisons.

Are you saying unless one has done a test or can prove it to be fact by showing their results it is not true?

No, not at all.

For instance, there have been long discussions about the effectiveness of the 120mm Sabot round fired from the M-1 Abrams tank.  Not many of us can test that gun. (I wish I could. )

But we can read test results from those that have shot one.

But, if someone says, "I bet those guns aren't very accurate", and they have no experience shooting them, we ought to hold their "I think" in low regard.

Come on it is a discussion form and people are only posting there opinions, I would think on there own experiences.

You are correct.  This is indeed a discussion forum.  Anyone can post anything they like.

But if someone posts wrong data or suggests wrong tactics, they can get someone hurt.  If someone asks, "Is birdshot an effective personal defense load?", we all owe it to them to give good advice, based upon sound data.

"I once heard a guy who's cousin talked to a policeman who said it was a good load", is not good advice.  

Many on this board have done extensive tests and have determined, without any doubt, that birdshot is not the best self-defense load.  Period.

I see that any thing any body post that is not consisted with your findings you dislike.

I hope that is not what it appears I feel.  I am interested in learning about this fascinating sport.  I don't "like" or "dislike" facts.  They are just that.  Facts.  If they demonstrate my data to be wrong, I will change my opinion.

But I, and many others whose opinions I respect, feel that we often see wrong advice given by people as if they know what they are talking about, when, in fact, they do not.

And, as I once saw someone whose opinion I respect say, "You're going to get someone killed."

Quoted: At normal indoor encounter range, it doesn't matter what size of shot.  The hole is going to be a gaping, nasty and highly lethal wound, even from a .410 bore shotgun as long as you put the bead on center mass. Shotguns up close are nasty regardless of size of shot.  Now if you have a 30 yard range, buckshot makes a difference.  But at 30 feet, #6 or #4 work.

I used to deliver wood to a company that made caskets. They sometimes had polaroids of folk who were goin in em. I dont know why.

They had a picture of a guy who was shot in the face with a .410 loaded with #7 from across a living room. It looked like a big V shape hole in his head starting from below the nose and spreading out to about 3.5" at the top of the head. Cleaned it right out.

Quoted: As for svi40 Have you ever been shot with rubber buck shot? It has a way of pacifying a person. You should get some and have a friend of yours shot you in the ass with it. Then come back and start a thread about what you think.

Have you ever been charged by a 250lb man with a 7inch hunting knife?

I'll bet that if you ever are you'll change you're mind about putting RUBBER BUCKSHOT in your defense shotgun.

Come back and start a thread when said attacker has cut you a new asscrack.

I won't argue about 20 ga loads, there are rounds that will work.

The problem is, a full length bird gun is crappy for inside use.  Too damn long.

When "experts" say a shotgun is best for home defense, they aren't talking about granddad's old double barrel.  They are talking about a shotgun made for anti-personell work... pistol grip, 18" barrel, extended mag, etc.

Unfortunately there are few such accessories for 20 ga shotguns, while they is quite a good selection for 12 ga.

When I was in the market for a shotty, I did alot of research (mostly on ar15.com). I have an 870 in 12ga, 18" bbl loaded with  00 tactical buck. This might help www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Quoted: what is the consensus? I know 12 is "better" but will a full load of 3O Buck from a 20 gauge do the job? I am looking for a lightweight gun and the 12 is to rough on smaller and younger shooters. Thanks.

To get back to the original goddamn question.

Yes, I think the consensus here is that you'll be fine.