Will the PTR-9CT be offered without the welded on rail at any point (ala the PTR-91 GI)?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Will the PTR-9CT be offered without the welded on rail at any point (ala the PTR-91 GI)? (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 11/7/2018 5:27:09 PM EDT

@ATLANTIC-FIREARMS

Anyone know if the PTR-9CT will be offered without the rail?

Posted: 11/7/2018 6:47:21 PM EDT

[#1]

It needs to be. That rail is fugly.

Posted: 11/7/2018 9:35:58 PM EDT

[#2]

There are no plans that we are aware of at this time to offer it without the rail .

Posted: 11/8/2018 1:22:45 PM EDT

[#3]

I would be game for a non rail version.

Posted: 11/8/2018 1:34:59 PM EDT

[#4]

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There are no plans that we are aware of at this time to offer it without the rail .

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@ATLANTIC-FIREARMS

Any chance you guys could talk them into it? Not like it would be that dofficult....just omit the rail and charge the same price for all we care. I just want something more true to form. Maybe an Atlantic limited run PTR-9CT GI?

Posted: 11/8/2018 3:20:09 PM EDT

[#5]

Bunch of custom makers out there can square you away with whatever you want

Posted: 11/8/2018 4:11:40 PM EDT

[#6]

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Bunch of custom makers out there can square you away with whatever you want

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Unfortunately for 2x the price. I’ll check out an Omega from AF if PTR isn’t interested in ditching the rail on some of their guns. I’ll spend $1500-1800....but not $3k for a range toy.

Posted: 11/8/2018 4:24:34 PM EDT

[#7]

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Unfortunately for 2x the price. I’ll check out an Omega from AF if PTR isn’t interested in ditching the rail on some of their guns. I’ll spend $1500-1800....but not $3k for a range toy.

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Maybe one of these days a cheaper custom maker will come along

Posted: 11/9/2018 8:53:14 AM EDT

[#8]

You simply can't please everyone, the rail stays......... Modern amenities!

Posted: 11/9/2018 9:00:26 AM EDT

[#9]

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You simply can't please everyone, the rail stays......... Modern amenities!

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Sure you can. You don’t weld one part to the top of the receiver. It’s not adding a manufacturing step...it’s removing one. Do a run of 50 of them and see how they sell. Otherwise I can just go buy from a different MFG. that’s how I feel, and I’m sure others do too.

Posted: 11/9/2018 9:05:49 AM EDT

[#10]

I'll buy one without a rail...even if it doesn't have a sling loop.

Otherwise, I'll just embrace the trapezoidal mag well on my Omega.

Posted: 11/9/2018 3:17:19 PM EDT

[#11]

I would agree this seems really short sighted on PTRs part.

I have a bunch of their guns I use as beater sear hosts and the two thing I am not a fan of (other than not coming with full auto carriers) is that they weld rails onto everything and that oddball rear sight windage adjustment knob deal.

Seems like they are alienating a sizeable portion of the market due to forcing folks to accept welded on picatinny rails on most of their HK clone platforms.

I just dont see all that many people putting optics on their HK clones as optics don't co-witness well with the HK triple-tree or they have to sit unnaturally high to clear it. The only way I can ever get an optic to properly co-witness is to use a really low sitting micro red dot (like a Fastfire 2) and then also mill the fast fire mount down thinner.

Seems like a no-brainer to make a run of guns and not weld the rail on.

Posted: 11/9/2018 9:35:39 PM EDT

[#12]

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I'll buy one without a rail...even if it doesn't have a sling loop.

Otherwise, I'll just embrace the trapezoidal mag well on my Omega.

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That bad?

Posted: 11/9/2018 9:37:37 PM EDT

[#13]

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I would agree this seems really short sighted on PTRs part.

I have a bunch of their guns I use as beater sear hosts and the two thing I am not a fan of (other than not coming with full auto carriers) is that they weld rails onto everything and that oddball rear sight windage adjustment knob deal.

Seems like they are alienating a sizeable portion of the market due to forcing folks to accept welded on picatinny rails on most of their HK clone platforms.

I just dont see all that many people putting optics on their HK clones as optics don't co-witness well with the HK triple-tree or they have to sit unnaturally high to clear it. The only way I can ever get an optic to properly co-witness is to use a really low sitting micro red dot (like a Fastfire 2) and then also mill the fast fire mount down thinner.

Seems like a no-brainer to make a run of guns and not weld the rail on.

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Another option is chopping the top half of the triple tree off....but then you’re even further from the original design.

Posted: 11/10/2018 12:27:17 AM EDT

[#14]

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That bad?

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Both of mine are fine. My zeniths are slightly tight

Posted: 11/10/2018 1:43:03 AM EDT

[#15]

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That bad?

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I'll buy one without a rail...even if it doesn't have a sling loop.

Otherwise, I'll just embrace the trapezoidal mag well on my Omega.

That bad?

It works, but the magazine is floppy. It doesn't look like Picasso welded it up, but it's not remotely square or symmetrical.

Posted: 11/10/2018 1:50:23 AM EDT

[#16]

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I would agree this seems really short sighted on PTRs part.

I have a bunch of their guns I use as beater sear hosts and the two thing I am not a fan of (other than not coming with full auto carriers) is that they weld rails onto everything and that oddball rear sight windage adjustment knob deal.

Seems like they are alienating a sizeable portion of the market due to forcing folks to accept welded on picatinny rails on most of their HK clone platforms.

I just dont see all that many people putting optics on their HK clones as optics don't co-witness well with the HK triple-tree or they have to sit unnaturally high to clear it. The only way I can ever get an optic to properly co-witness is to use a really low sitting micro red dot (like a Fastfire 2) and then also mill the fast fire mount down thinner.

Seems like a no-brainer to make a run of guns and not weld the rail on.

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I like the optic on my Zenith. Does not co-witness but it's a problem either (little high). I have been told their are low profile rails that will perfectly co-witness the razor.

Posted: 11/10/2018 2:13:06 AM EDT

[#17]

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I would agree this seems really short sighted on PTRs part.

I have a bunch of their guns I use as beater sear hosts and the two thing I am not a fan of (other than not coming with full auto carriers) is that they weld rails onto everything and that oddball rear sight windage adjustment knob deal.

Seems like they are alienating a sizeable portion of the market due to forcing folks to accept welded on picatinny rails on most of their HK clone platforms.

I just dont see all that many people putting optics on their HK clones as optics don't co-witness well with the HK triple-tree or they have to sit unnaturally high to clear it. The only way I can ever get an optic to properly co-witness is to use a really low sitting micro red dot (like a Fastfire 2) and then also mill the fast fire mount down thinner.

Seems like a no-brainer to make a run of guns and not weld the rail on.

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I would bet the non rail guys are a small if not tiny part of the market.

Posted: 11/10/2018 7:45:53 AM EDT

[#18]

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I would bet the non rail guys are a small if not tiny part of the market.

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I would be interested to know the answer to this. The roller guns do tend to draw more 'purists' than a lot of other guns.

Posted: 11/10/2018 8:08:43 AM EDT

[#19]

I have toyed with the idea of cutting the rail off of my PTR. But then I would have to get the scope lug welded on and then refinish the whole receiver.

And I am sure that would void their life time warranty.

Posted: 11/10/2018 8:44:40 AM EDT

[#20]

Of the things that kind of annoy me about the PTR 9 CT, the rail is the least annoying.

Lack of a front sling eyelet, a handguard that's functional but unrefined, and a Navy style lower that's not compatible with a binary trigger are more "meh".

Of course I still bought one so none of those things are deal breakers.

At least with the rail and a Primary Arms red dot I can see and use the iron sights through the gap in the PA mount. This isn't a long range gun so I'm not worried about height of the optic over the bore.

Posted: 11/10/2018 9:23:54 AM EDT

[#21]

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It works, but the magazine is floppy. It doesn't look like Picasso welded it up, but it's not remotely square or symmetrical.

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If you want, send it to Jeff (Ghilliebear) and Parabellum Combat Systems. He was able to reform my SW’s magazine well after it got crushed in, and it’s run perfectly ever since.

Posted: 11/10/2018 1:26:01 PM EDT

[#22]

Sometimes I wish it wasn't there when I’m just finger fucking it, but its one less thing needed to mount an optic. It begs for an eotech, though, the microdot that came with mine gives me a much too cluttered sight picture, so it's either an absolute riser or a non-QD eotech.

Posted: 11/10/2018 5:13:21 PM EDT

[#23]

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I would be interested to know the answer to this. The roller guns do tend to draw more 'purists' than a lot of other guns.

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I would bet the non rail guys are a small if not tiny part of the market.

I would be interested to know the answer to this. The roller guns do tend to draw more 'purists' than a lot of other guns.

I suspect the market for non-railed is bigger than folks would expect.

A. As mentioned above, there are a lot of folks who want the classic look of the traditional MP5 and the rail just fucks up the lines of the gun.

B. My personal take is that if you want to run an optic on an MP5 there are better options than running a picatinny mount based optic on a welded on rail as there are dedicated mounts that will allow co-witness of optics on MP5s. However, having the rail permanently on the receiver means you actually can't use these better/dedicated MP5 co-witness optic mount setups as the rail is no in the way. (Battle Steel or CFG)

Since it costs nothing to not add the rail.... I don't see why PTR wouldnt make runs of rail-less MP5s clones. Seems like they would quickly sell them based on the feedback here and on HKPRO.

Posted: 11/10/2018 10:09:59 PM EDT

[#24]

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I suspect the market for non-railed is bigger than folks would expect.

A. As mentioned above, there are a lot of folks who want the classic look of the traditional MP5 and the rail just fucks up the lines of the gun.

B. My personal take is that if you want to run an optic on an MP5 there are better options than running a picatinny mount based optic on a welded on rail as there are dedicated mounts that will allow co-witness of optics on MP5s. However, having the rail permanently on the receiver means you actually can't use these better/dedicated MP5 co-witness optic mount setups as the rail is no in the way. (Battle Steel or CFG)

Since it costs nothing to not add the rail.... I don't see why PTR wouldnt make runs of rail-less MP5s clones. Seems like they would quickly sell them based on the feedback here and on HKPRO.

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I imagine they will eventually.

The PTR91s eventually started coming out sans rail as well.

Posted: 11/10/2018 10:10:38 PM EDT

[#25]

Something to consider when dealing with HK style flats and rolling them. Almost all flats need some straightening/fitting to make them look and function correctly. If a flat is rolled and parts fit, it may not be visually pleasing, due to the work or lack there of. A bolt carrier may function correctly but it may not look "pretty". A weld on rail covers the top area and makes sense because it's a great way to kill two birds with one stone versus the hand work and needed jigs/tools to straighten the receiver.

I'm not saying this is the case with PTR just an overlooked nuance when dealing with flats. There are ways to get those flats straight. The easiest flats to roll are LSC but they need some slight fitting to pretty them up. The harder flats are SW especially their .223 flats. The original SW .223 flats work extremely well once the top rib is formed and the flat rolled, and straighten it out.

Posted: 11/10/2018 11:50:19 PM EDT

[#26]

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Of the things that kind of annoy me about the PTR 9 CT, the rail is the least annoying.

Lack of a front sling eyelet, a handguard that's functional but unrefined, and a Navy style lower that's not compatible with a binary trigger are more "meh".

Of course I still bought one so none of those things are deal breakers.

At least with the rail and a Primary Arms red dot I can see and use the iron sights through the gap in the PA mount. This isn't a long range gun so I'm not worried about height of the optic over the bore.

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9CT isn't compatible with a binary trigger?

Posted: 11/11/2018 2:18:10 AM EDT

[#27]

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a Navy style lower that's not compatible with a binary trigger are more "meh".

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Um, the PTR9CT works just fine with a binary trigger. Why wouldn't it?

Posted: 11/11/2018 2:20:50 AM EDT

[#28]

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Um, the PTR9CT works just fine with a binary trigger. Why wouldn't it?

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a Navy style lower that's not compatible with a binary trigger are more "meh".

Um, the PTR9CT works just fine with a binary trigger. Why wouldn't it?

I thought I'd seen someone selling a 9CT with a binary so this gave me pause...

Posted: 11/11/2018 6:49:40 AM EDT

[#29]

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9CT isn't compatible with a binary trigger?

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Of the things that kind of annoy me about the PTR 9 CT, the rail is the least annoying.

Lack of a front sling eyelet, a handguard that's functional but unrefined, and a Navy style lower that's not compatible with a binary trigger are more "meh".

Of course I still bought one so none of those things are deal breakers.

At least with the rail and a Primary Arms red dot I can see and use the iron sights through the gap in the PA mount. This isn't a long range gun so I'm not worried about height of the optic over the bore.

9CT isn't compatible with a binary trigger?

One of the reviews here had someone saying the Franklin Arms trigger required a different style of trigger housing than the one that comes with the PTR.

Posted: 11/11/2018 10:57:36 AM EDT

[#30]

The PTR has an SEF housing which is the type that the FA binary uses.

Posted: 11/12/2018 1:54:35 PM EDT

[#31]

The detachable rail is stupid IMO, and if Picatinny was a thing back in the early 70s it probably would have been designed with one. Surprise, most people use optics and the rail holds zero better than any claw mount........ I think it's better that way. There's noway this gun is not going to be considered a clone so why not?

Posted: 11/12/2018 2:11:12 PM EDT

[#32]

A detachable rail gives more configuration options overall than a permanent pic rail. Plus the guns look sexier without the rail which is more important anyways.

Posted: 11/12/2018 2:17:04 PM EDT

[#33]

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The detachable rail is stupid IMO, and if Picatinny was a thing back in the early 70s it probably would have been designed with one. Surprise, most people use optics and the rail holds zero better than any claw mount........ I think it's better that way. There's noway this gun is not going to be considered a clone so why not?

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That's the boat I'm in as well. In my experience the purists frequently think their idea is what would sell the best but there is a reason most companies have added rails to guns like the HKs and Macs.

I was just browsing PTR's site and they list 12 308 models. 11 of them have rails.

Posted: 11/13/2018 12:15:27 AM EDT

[#34]

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One of the reviews here had someone saying the Franklin Arms trigger required a different style of trigger housing than the one that comes with the PTR.

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Of the things that kind of annoy me about the PTR 9 CT, the rail is the least annoying.

Lack of a front sling eyelet, a handguard that's functional but unrefined, and a Navy style lower that's not compatible with a binary trigger are more "meh".

Of course I still bought one so none of those things are deal breakers.

At least with the rail and a Primary Arms red dot I can see and use the iron sights through the gap in the PA mount. This isn't a long range gun so I'm not worried about height of the optic over the bore.

9CT isn't compatible with a binary trigger?

One of the reviews here had someone saying the Franklin Arms trigger required a different style of trigger housing than the one that comes with the PTR.

Fits fine in mine.

Posted: 11/13/2018 12:23:21 AM EDT

[#35]

but it's mil-spec

Posted: 11/13/2018 8:57:05 AM EDT

[#36]

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but it's mil-spec

https://s14-eu5.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http:%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv613%2FTim_Orrock%2FSDF%2FSNGwithAK-4s.jpg&sp=612515788bbe92c238a4ad0e4a8a4662

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Too bad PTR doesn’t make an exact clone of the AK4.

Posted: 11/13/2018 11:57:56 AM EDT

[#37]

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Too bad PTR doesn't make an exact clone of the AK4.

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down to the milled off iron sights?

Posted: 11/13/2018 4:38:56 PM EDT

[#38]

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Fits fine in mine.

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Good to know, thanks. I'll probably pick one up in the next couple months.

Posted: 11/13/2018 6:53:39 PM EDT

[#39]

The biggest concern that keeps me from buying a PTR 9CT right now is it looks like the odds of getting one that a wide forearm will fit on is a total crap shoot. Seems a good number of them have the cocking tube turned a bit too far to the left and it results in the charging handle getting in the way of the wide forearm fitting.

Posted: 11/13/2018 7:25:45 PM EDT

[#40]

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I just dont see all that many people putting optics on their HK clones as optics don't co-witness well with the HK triple-tree or they have to sit unnaturally high to clear it. .

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because all the options for mounts suck.

welded rail is awesome, I have them on all builds and retrofitted to my MP5.

the sights on the mp5 suck a rail and good optic make so much better yo use

on my hk21 build I will have a solid top rail and no welded sights

hell I took off the 1200 m sight on my 23 becuase it sucks

Posted: 11/13/2018 7:25:49 PM EDT

[#41]

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The biggest concern that keeps me from buying a PTR 9CT right now is it looks like the odds of getting one that a wide forearm will fit on is a total crap shoot. Seems a good number of them have the cocking tube turned a bit too far to the left and it results in the charging handle getting in the way of the wide forearm fitting.

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If you order from Atlantic I wonder if they’d check the fit on one for you before shipping it out.

Posted: 11/14/2018 2:22:42 AM EDT

[#42]

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If you order from Atlantic I wonder if they’d check the fit on one for you before shipping it out.

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The biggest concern that keeps me from buying a PTR 9CT right now is it looks like the odds of getting one that a wide forearm will fit on is a total crap shoot. Seems a good number of them have the cocking tube turned a bit too far to the left and it results in the charging handle getting in the way of the wide forearm fitting.

If you order from Atlantic I wonder if they’d check the fit on one for you before shipping it out.

Yeah I thought about that. I'd even pay extra for it.. sort of like the old "hand select" option many vendors had when buying parts kits or C&R guns.

Posted: 11/14/2018 11:45:56 AM EDT

[#43]

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because all the options for mounts suck.

welded rail is awesome, I have them on all builds and retrofitted to my MP5.

the sights on the mp5 suck a rail and good optic make so much better yo use

on my hk21 build I will have a solid top rail and no welded sights

hell I took off the 1200 m sight on my 23 becuase it sucks

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I am not saying that PTR should discontinue the rail version. Obviously many folks like it (yourself included) like it.

Others like myself find the HK iron sights just fine and have no desire to procure optics and maintain batteries in a dozen different HK sear hosts. Optic free guns are also easier to clean and maintain as I can just dump them a parts washer and not worry about getting fluid into an expensive optic and killing it or having to remove the optic and re-zero.

Just seems odd to me that PTR assumes there is no market for a non-railed version, when there have been no shortage of folks online asking for a "Classic" version sans-rail.

The only explanation I have seen thus far to explain the persistence of the rail is that the rail may help "cover up" some otherwise sloppy build characteristic and that removing the rail would actually require them to spend more time making sure the receiver was to spec. No clue if that is true or not as I would think PTR would be experts and bending and welding flats at this point.

I guess its up to them as there are plenty of other builders who will be happy to take that segment of the business if PTR won't offer it.

Posted: 11/14/2018 12:04:23 PM EDT

[#44]

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Just seems odd to me that PTR assumes there is no market for a non-railed version, when there have been no shortage of folks online asking for a "Classic" version sans-rail

The only explanation I have seen thus far to explain the persistence of the rail is that the rail may help "cover up" some otherwise sloppy build characteristic and that removing the rail would actually require them to spend more time making sure the receiver was to spec. No clue if that is true or not as I would think PTR would be experts and bending and welding flats at this point.

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To the top paragraph what makes you think it was a assumption and how many people do you equate to no shortage? I would assume they did a ton of market research in addition to their vast experience gained with the 91 series guns.

To the bottom one I don’t know what to say. It’s a ignorant statement of that is truly the only reason you can come up with because as pointed out several times the market as a whole prefers the rail without question.

You definitely seem like what I would call a purist and that’s fine but you need to realize you’re the minority not the majority. Even if you bought 100 guns it would be a tiny tiny piece of the market.

Posted: 11/14/2018 3:19:48 PM EDT

[#45]

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To the top paragraph what makes you think it was a assumption and how many people do you equate to no shortage? I would assume they did a ton of market research in addition to their vast experience gained with the 91 series guns.

To the bottom one I don’t know what to say. It’s a ignorant statement of that is truly the only reason you can come up with because as pointed out several times the market as a whole prefers the rail without question.

You definitely seem like what I would call a purist and that’s fine but you need to realize you’re the minority not the majority. Even if you bought 100 guns it would be a tiny tiny piece of the market.

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The comment about build challenges and the possible technical necessity of the rail was made by user JFK above.

We were discussing why it wouldn't be a big deal from a technical perspective to just remove the rail and the comment was made that maybe the rail helps to ease or streamline their build process and it may not as easy as we assumed to just delete the rail from the build and run a batch without the rail and their oddball front handguard and call it the "Classic". I have not seen any other "technical" reason for not producing a non-railed version other than folks continuing to bring up the non-technical "market research dictates" argument that there is close to zero demand for MP5s without rails.

I guess I am a "purist" along with all of the other customers of HK, MKE, or POF as none of them commonly make and sell a welded rail MP5 variant.

Even looking on Atlantic's website at the Omega lineup (which is probably PTRs most direct competitor from a market standpoint), they have 10 Omega complete MP5 variant guns and/or upper on their website. Out of those 10 Omegas variants available, only 2 have welded rails.

In regards to the "no-shortage" comment....in addition to seeing folks online ask specifically about the future availability of non-railed PTRs, somebody is buying all of those non-railed variants from HK, MKE, POF, and Omega.

Posted: 11/14/2018 3:38:35 PM EDT

[#46]

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Others like myself find the HK iron sights just fine and have no desire to procure optics and maintain batteries in a dozen different HK sear hosts.

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Others like myself find the HK iron sights just fine and have no desire to procure optics and maintain batteries in a dozen different HK sear hosts.

You are in the very small majority and ptr knows that as well-hence why they don't offer it.

most people that get the clones will get one of them, and more than likely they will have a optic.

Very few HK purist left

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The only explanation I have seen thus far to explain the persistence of the rail is that the rail may help "cover up" some otherwise sloppy build characteristic .

that's not even close to true, a rail basically covers nothing

Posted: 11/14/2018 3:39:36 PM EDT

[#47]

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You are in the very small majority and ptr knows that as well-hence why they don't offer it.

most people that get the clones will get one of them, and more than likely they will have a optic.

Very few HK purist left

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Very small majority?

Posted: 11/14/2018 4:00:09 PM EDT

[#48]

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that's not even close to true, a rail basically covers nothing

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that's not even close to true, a rail basically covers nothing

The rail does cover most of the top of the receiver where multiple reinforcing top ribs have to be pressed into the receiver correctly.

It has been a common challenge with many of the flats and builders over the years to get those top ribs right. At one point even Dakota was only offering railed variants as had no way to press the top ribs into the flats he was using on some of his MP5/40 builds.

I have personally sent multiple sets of flats to Jayson at IGF to have top ribs stamped as he was (or maybe still is) one of the only folks that had dies to properly add top ribs into MP5/40/10 flats and or 93 flats.

Given the rumor that PTR owns LSCs flat tooling and that LSC flats come with pretty good top ribs already formed it would seem like they should be there under the rail on the PTR guns assuming these are LSC die based guns. Maybe PTR is getting flats which is also missing proper top rib stamping in their flats and a full rail is the easiest way to cover that up fact.

Maybe they just don't have the small claw mount weldment available or they don't have a jig to hold that part during the receiver build process.

However the idea that the rail covers "basically nothing" isn't exactly the case either and can and has been used to simplify roller-locked builds for a long time.

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Very few HK purist left

That would explain all of the fire sales I see on HK SP5Ks and why CDNN has them at 50% off retail with a bunch of extra mags and freebies thrown in to get them sold.