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Posted: 2/16/2023 11:56:05 AM EDT
[#1]
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/Bearing-Delay-Upper-Receiver-Assembly-updates-information-and-resources/817-303326/
I put my deposit down for one of those. I've heard may be ready March/April. Been in development since at least 2020. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 2:23:57 PM EDT
[#2]
Aero Precision EPC-9…all the features you want like LRBHO, Glock mags and commonality with the AR platform.
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Posted: 2/16/2023 2:28:15 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aero Precision EPC-9…all the features you want like LRBHO, Glock mags and commonality with the AR platform. This is where I started but I've watched or read some stuff that 9mm direct blowback recoil is worse than 5.56 DI recoil. Any truth to that? |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 3:29:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is where I started but I've watched or read some stuff that 9mm direct blowback recoil is worse than 5.56 DI recoil. Any truth to that? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Aero Precision EPC-9 all the features you want like LRBHO, Glock mags and commonality with the AR platform. This is where I started but I've watched or read some stuff that 9mm direct blowback recoil is worse than 5.56 DI recoil. Any truth to that? Fast Forward to today with all the aftermarket options, even with my tinkering with various buffers/springs etc I still think a delayed blowback is still way smoother than any tuned straight blowback 9mm. https://c3junkie.com/?page_id=280 I wouldn't say the recoil is worse, more that it seems sharper to me if that makes sense. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 5:41:13 PM EDT
[#5]
OP how much do the wife and kids shoot?
If it’s frequent with them and they enjoy it, AR 9s running on glock mags can be had cheap enough to get two when you compare to HKs and MPXs If they don’t do it a lot, or they tolerate it, i would invest less to start. I’ve had good experiences with my PC9 and it’s good to learn on. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 6:03:45 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is where I started but I've watched or read some stuff that 9mm direct blowback recoil is worse than 5.56 DI recoil. Any truth to that? My father is a big Ruger fan but also 80 years-old. He bought a PC9 and immediately hated it. It was too heavy for him and the recoil was unpleasant. You're going to get those things from a blow-back gun. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 6:22:16 PM EDT
[#7]
I have a PTR9 and love it.
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Posted: 2/16/2023 6:32:16 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is where I started but I've watched or read some stuff that 9mm direct blowback recoil is worse than 5.56 DI recoil. Any truth to that? The recoil is less, but the impulse is quicker…does that makes sense? Watch some YT vids on the EPC; it gets pretty good reviews from most. If you really want to change the impulse then you’re tied into an HK or clone. I wouldn’t get a Stribog SPA3 or a Scorp…same blowback recoil. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 7:17:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you really want to change the impulse then you're tied into an HK or clone. MPX is also very smooth but I think it is a crappy suppressor host. Angstadt MDP9 is out but sounds like it has issues. New LMT 9mm looks promising as they seem to only make quality stuff. There is also the JP-5 which is very nice (and expensive) but not full auto compatible so no interest for me. Lastly the upcoming MEAN Arms bearing delay I'm very interested in. |
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Posted: 2/16/2023 7:28:53 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP how much do the wife and kids shoot? If it’s frequent with them and they enjoy it, AR 9s running on glock mags can be had cheap enough to get two when you compare to HKs and MPXs If they don’t do it a lot, or they tolerate it, i would invest less to start. I’ve had good experiences with my PC9 and it’s good to learn on. This. I have a 16" and an 8", both Kaw Valley Uppers on PSA Glock Lowers. They are extremely fun and easy to shoot, ultra reliable and not a lot of noise, and wife and kid friendly. |
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Posted: 2/17/2023 7:01:06 AM EDT
[#11]
A straight blowback 9mm, like the Aero EPC, or Scorpion, is probably not a good choice for the wife and kids. Yes, they're cheaper, but the recoil impulse sucks compared to the delayed blowback. Best ways to describe it is "abrupt", "snappy", "punchy", or "sharp". My wife hates my 9mm AR's, but loves the MP5. She's no stranger to recoil, either.
I recently embarked on a project specifically to try to knock down the recoil of the straight blowback 9mm AR without using a delay system. You can read about it here if you like: the Gentle Recoil Project. This removed all the snappiness from the recoil for about $200 in parts, and the shooting experience is much better, but in side-by-side comparisons it's still not as good as an MP5. For the family, go with a delayed blowback system - SP5, MPX, or CMMG RDB. Don't waste your time on a straight blowback - and that's coming from someone who loves the straight blowback platform. It'll likely sit in the safe instead of getting used. |
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Posted: 2/17/2023 7:09:45 AM EDT
[#12]
Another vote for MPX or MP5. They're my softest shooting PCC's and are always a hit with women/kids.
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Posted: 2/18/2023 1:24:10 PM EDT
[#13]
In my experience with new shooters, the controls of a CX-4 are easily figured out and people without much firearms experience don"t notice the poor trigger and relatively stiff recoil. It isn't a very intimidating PCC.
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Posted: 2/18/2023 1:34:28 PM EDT
[#14]
If you can try and have them shoot each, mine tried an mp5, scorpion and ar9. She ended up choosing the scorpion. All were suppressed and same ammo.
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Posted: 2/19/2023 9:55:40 AM EDT
[#15]
OP, you might want to give the B&T TP 380 a look.
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Posted: 2/19/2023 10:37:22 AM EDT
[#16]
For your use I lean strongly towards the CMMG radial delay system. Excellent ergonomics of any AR - and all the parts/accessories for reasonable cost anyone could ask for. As fun as the MP5 can be it's much more expensive to buy mags/accessories and is less easily able to be modified for different people on the fly.
It's really hard to beat the adjustable AR stock for multiple people. |
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Posted: 2/22/2023 11:09:15 PM EDT
[#17]
Look at the Palmetto AR-V.
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Posted: 2/22/2023 11:14:19 PM EDT
[#18]
I may get ridiculed for this, but I'd suggest looking at a couple Extar EP9s.
Light, soft shooting (even though direct blowback), takes Glock mags, very affordable, AR-like controls, and extremely reliable, even with all kinds of hollow points. |
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Posted: 2/23/2023 12:07:01 AM EDT
[#19]
Judging by the poll, not many people have fired a Banshee because if they had, I bet it would be at 60+
Every new shooter I’ve introduced to my PCCs has preferred the Banshee unless I also take the EP9 which I think is really the right answer if you don’t mind all the plastic. It’s incredibly lightweight and very reliable and you could buy 2-4 of them for the cost of the other options. Haven’t ever fired a scorpion but own some variation of the rest of these plus a couple of others. ETA: I assume you meant MPX not MCX |
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Posted: 2/23/2023 12:26:07 AM EDT
[#20]
SUB-2000, b/c the wife can drop it in her purse.
Looks like S&W is coming out w/ a folder as well. |
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Posted: 2/23/2023 2:06:25 AM EDT
[#21]
CMMG Radially Delayed Blowback shooter here.
I had mine done up as a 16" gun and it's no lightweight, but the flip side is that recoil is veeerrry minimal. I would agree with the other posters that if it's something you want wife & kids to enjoy, get a delayed system above a blowback system. If you went blowback, I'd check out that "gentle recoil" link/info. Back in earlier days, I used to rent MP5s and one time a rented a blowback full auto Colt. I was unimpressed with the recoil- better ergos, but worse recoil. |
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Posted: 2/23/2023 2:14:34 AM EDT
[#22]
Ruger PC9, but only if the HK is out of price range
Maybe a Kriss Vector, those are easy to shoot |
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Posted: 2/23/2023 2:22:11 AM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 2/23/2023 2:34:57 AM EDT
[#24]
Beretta CX 4 storm. Uses Beretta 92/ M9 mags, being blown out at $599
Notes: blow out lively due to new Beretta pcc about to come out Used by colonial armed forces, as seen in the Battlestar Galactica documentary |
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Posted: 2/23/2023 5:54:37 PM EDT
[#25]
I have had a few of the ones you are looking at and my wife loves the CZ Scorpion the most. It is lightweight, easy to charge and shooting it is very mild. Accuracy is amazing for what it is. The MKE Ap5 I had was difficult for her to use,especially charging it and clearing double feeds. Factory mags are cheap for the Scorpion. I have about 600 rounds through mine without a hiccup since day one.
I had a KRISS Vector when they came out and while a fun gun to shoot, it was incredibly difficult for me to charge without the hammer being cocked first. It was a noted problem when they first came out. I had to place the charging handle on a desk and use my body weight to cycle the first round. I am not sure how they are now but recoil was not lessened like they say it is supposed to be due to it's design. Maybe in full auto but in semi-auto,it recoiled the same as any other gun in 45 acp. An ar-15 9mm is a great choice if the members of your family are familiar with a standard ar. Another person stated the Beretta Storm which is also a nice viable option. Mine has been reliable since the get go. Mags are cheap and can be used with the pistol of the same type to boot. |
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Posted: 2/23/2023 7:50:06 PM EDT
[#26]
If it's just fun shooting an SP5 for sure but if it's home defense I'd say APC9 or APC9K. Extremely accurate and reliable with a lot of ammo that doesn't always cycle in an MP5.
It's straight blowback but nowhere near as harsh as a Scorpion and suppreses well but not as good as an MP5. I have a binary trigger in my APC9K, in the MP5 and MP5K and Scorpion. |
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Posted: 2/23/2023 10:45:48 PM EDT
[#27]
GHM9 w/Glock lower, recoil is barely noticeable.
Love mine  |
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Posted: 2/23/2023 10:54:58 PM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 2/24/2023 5:11:18 PM EDT
[#29]
I'm sorry, but my CMMG radial delayed upper on a New Frontier Glock lower, Enidine hydraulic buffer and good comp is not a soft recoiling PCC... now on the other hand if you make a CMMG .22lr collar unit with a dedicated stub .22lr barrel , lightweight fore end, good trigger on your back up AR, that would be a light weight trainer for the wife and kids... and with a good stainless feed lip Black Dog magazine and no last round bolt hold open a pretty reliable inside the house blaster... minimum muzzle blast, virtually no recoil.... 23+ rounds of high velocity CCI ammo...and it wouldn't break the bank to train a lot with it
Les L747 |
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Posted: 2/25/2023 11:47:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm sorry, but my CMMG radial delayed upper on a New Frontier Glock lower, Enidine hydraulic buffer and good comp is not a soft recoiling PCC... now on the other hand if you make a CMMG .22lr collar unit with a dedicated stub .22lr barrel , lightweight fore end, good trigger on your back up AR, that would be a light weight trainer for the wife and kids... and with a good stainless feed lip Black Dog magazine and no last round bolt hold open a pretty reliable inside the house blaster... minimum muzzle blast, virtually no recoil.... 23+ rounds of high velocity CCI ammo...and it wouldn't break the bank to train a lot with it Les L747 Why go to all that trouble instead of just grabbing a KelTec CMR-30 .22 WMR? Or a Ruger 10/22 for that matter? |
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Posted: 2/26/2023 11:08:41 PM EDT
[#31]
SP5 if this is just a fun sbr. The mp5 is so smooth, so enjoyable to shoot. I pretty much always bring an MP5 to the range.
The cmmg radially delayed blowback with MEAN endomags is excellent too. And the MEAN bearing delay looks great, but I’ll hold off until there are some reports of guns in the wild. On the B&T front, the ghm9 is Lego-like in its ability to be reconfigured. The only negatives of the B&T PCC lineup are the fragile mags and direct blowback. |
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Posted: 2/27/2023 9:42:40 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I may get ridiculed for this, but I'd suggest looking at a couple Extar EP9s. Light, soft shooting (even though direct blowback), takes Glock mags, very affordable, AR-like controls, and extremely reliable, even with all kinds of hollow points. ^^^^^^ THIS is the way. I have ALOT of PCCs. I bought a 6 position buffer tube extension on mine (bought directly from Extar), and put a 16” NERD finned barrel on mine. Extar WILL NOT sell a barrel nut, so I had to open the inside diameter of mine by .050”. The Extar is |
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Posted: 2/27/2023 10:16:25 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On the B&T front, the ghm9 is Lego-like in its ability to be reconfigured. The only negatives of the B&T PCC lineup are the fragile mags and direct blowback. KCI mags seem to be the answer for the mag issue, as the ones they make are seeming to be more durable and just as reliable while being cheaper |
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Posted: 2/27/2023 11:34:53 PM EDT
[#34]
Backbencher.... my CMMG collar unit on a 9" SBR and Black Dog stainless lip magazines works, and works very reliably... I've been shooting Steel Challenge rim fire rifle for the past two years or so, about 1200 rounds a month, and excluding parts failure (hammer, firing pins, chassis back plate) due to the volume of shots extremely reliable ... 10/22s, whether stock or highly modified competition units not so much... particularly so with high capacity magazines with the sheet metal "window blind" springs... I have no experience with the Kel Tec,
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Posted: 2/27/2023 11:56:51 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Backbencher.... my CMMG collar unit on a 9" SBR and Black Dog stainless lip magazines works, and works very reliably... I've been shooting Steel Challenge rim fire rifle for the past two years or so, about 1200 rounds a month, and excluding parts failure (hammer, firing pins, chassis back plate) due to the volume of shots extremely reliable ... 10/22s, whether stock or highly modified competition units not so much... particularly so with high capacity magazines with the sheet metal "window blind" springs... I have no experience with the Kel Tec, So other than parts breakage, your home build has been reliable - except when parts break? More reliable than 10/22s when their parts break? My brief experience w/ the CMR-30 was that it was very reliable w/ 40 grn loads, and the manual specifically said not to run 30 grn loads. I tried them anyway and it wasn't reliable w/ them, failures to feed. Have heard it will run 30s after a break-in period. I sold it on, will get another down the road. 30 rounds of 40 grn WMR from a 16" bbl is a measurable amount of hate. |
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Posted: 2/28/2023 12:05:52 AM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 2/28/2023 12:20:03 AM EDT
[#37]
This. Have a Streamlight mounted on the other side and did the safety mod. Trigger on these is not bad at all. Wife loves it. Not a single malfunction since I’ve had it. Runs great on 20 and 30 round mags. 16” ballistics without worrying about brace issues.
 Attached File8 year old nephew ringing steel plates at 80 yards with the Beretta.  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/28/2023 12:35:58 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Have a Streamlight mounted on the other side and did the safety mod. Trigger on these is not bad at all. Wife loves it. Not a single malfunction since I’ve had it. Runs great on 20 and 30 round mags. 16” ballistics without worrying about brace issues. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/43482/0B5E8D97-E96C-48B3-8223-9C6AC03EA2BA_jpe-2728261.JPG 8 year old nephew ringing steel plates at 80 yards with the Beretta. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/43482/8D09ACE1-D141-4214-8E30-7995532252D9_jpe-2728267.JPG This! Beretta CX4, frequently on sale at PSA. I believe it is also a little shorter then a regular PCC 16 inch barrel would be because the bolt is telescoping (rests over the barrel) |
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Posted: 2/28/2023 12:49:18 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This! Beretta CX4, frequently on sale at PSA. I believe it is also a little shorter then a regular PCC 16 inch barrel would be because the bolt is telescoping (rests over the barrel) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This. Have a Streamlight mounted on the other side and did the safety mod. Trigger on these is not bad at all. Wife loves it. Not a single malfunction since I’ve had it. Runs great on 20 and 30 round mags. 16” ballistics without worrying about brace issues. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/43482/0B5E8D97-E96C-48B3-8223-9C6AC03EA2BA_jpe-2728261.JPG 8 year old nephew ringing steel plates at 80 yards with the Beretta. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/43482/8D09ACE1-D141-4214-8E30-7995532252D9_jpe-2728267.JPG This! Beretta CX4, frequently on sale at PSA. I believe it is also a little shorter then a regular PCC 16 inch barrel would be because the bolt is telescoping (rests over the barrel) If you want one, particularly if you're sinister, get one now. Discontinued, still quite a few of the 9x19mm 92 mag models in stock. Don't hold out for a particular color. |
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Posted: 2/28/2023 1:22:05 AM EDT
[#40]
New shooters I've been around love my Ruger 9mm carbine. It's a older 1990s version so a straight blowback, sure it has more recoil than a mp5 but new shooters seems to hate the blast/noise of a rifle round more than the recoil.
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Posted: 2/28/2023 1:49:06 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: New shooters I've been around love my Ruger 9mm carbine. It's a older 1990s version so a straight blowback, sure it has more recoil than a mp5 but new shooters seems to hate the blast/noise of a rifle round more than the recoil. Both the old & new Ruger 9 & .40 PCCs are straight blowback. Yours is worth a little money now, it's the only PCC on the market that will take the older Ruger pistol mags. |
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Posted: 2/28/2023 2:23:24 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: If you want one, particularly if you're sinister, get one now. Discontinued, still quite a few of the 9x19mm 92 mag models in stock. Don't hold out for a particular color. Discontinued? I’d like to see some proof of that. They are still listed in Berettas 2023 US and World Wide catalog and websites. Plus nothing on the Beretta Forum. They are sold in batches, just like we see with many other firearms (CZ’s). The FDE (20 RDS)ones hit market a little over a year ago. Right now it’s black (15 RDS) that are for sale. And I haven’t seen anything from Beretta about discontinuing the CX4 to replace it with the PMX. That firearm will have the same issue as braced guns, won’t accept 92 series mags and retails at $1500. |
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Posted: 2/28/2023 10:34:48 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Discontinued? I’d like to see some proof of that. They are still listed in Berettas 2023 US and World Wide catalog and websites. Plus nothing on the Beretta Forum. They are sold in batches, just like we see with many other firearms (CZ’s). The FDE (20 RDS)ones hit market a little over a year ago. Right now it’s black (15 RDS) that are for sale. And I haven’t seen anything from Beretta about discontinuing the CX4 to replace it with the PMX. That firearm will have the same issue as braced guns, won’t accept 92 series mags and retails at $1500. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If you want one, particularly if you're sinister, get one now. Discontinued, still quite a few of the 9x19mm 92 mag models in stock. Don't hold out for a particular color. Discontinued? I’d like to see some proof of that. They are still listed in Berettas 2023 US and World Wide catalog and websites. Plus nothing on the Beretta Forum. They are sold in batches, just like we see with many other firearms (CZ’s). The FDE (20 RDS)ones hit market a little over a year ago. Right now it’s black (15 RDS) that are for sale. And I haven’t seen anything from Beretta about discontinuing the CX4 to replace it with the PMX. That firearm will have the same issue as braced guns, won’t accept 92 series mags and retails at $1500. I've been told that by at least one distributor, and PSA's and others' prices reflect that. |
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Posted: 2/28/2023 8:24:47 PM EDT
[#44]
I've got a Sig MPX and it's always been my son's favorite gun and one I'm not allowed to ever get rid of as he plans to inherit it lol.
That said, I think at current new prices they are over priced for what they are. If they were 1200-1400 new they would sell a heck of a lot more, I know I'd own a 2nd one for sure. If you have young kids they are a little heavy, but they are low recoil and very easy to shoot. |
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Posted: 3/12/2023 5:22:26 PM EDT
[#45]
My wife and I each have an FM side charging 9mm AR.
Both run like a sewing machine with no failures in about 1200 rounds each. We both also have UTAS UT9 Mini's. Again, both run great. We've only had about 800-900 rounds through them. I have an FM45 that I've put about 500 rounds through. So far it run's great, but I like my Gas Impinged AR better. Much softer recoil impulse. I just got a Stribog sp9a3G recently, but haven't had a chance to get out to the range since picking it up... Blessings, Blessings, DocS |
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Posted: 3/13/2023 2:25:25 PM EDT
[#46]
As uncool as they may be, a Beretta CX4 is a pretty trustworthy choice for a basic HD carbine for women/kids.
They can be had for $549 new and are plenty reliable. |
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Posted: 3/13/2023 2:28:33 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Have a Streamlight mounted on the other side and did the safety mod. Trigger on these is not bad at all. Wife loves it. Not a single malfunction since I’ve had it. Runs great on 20 and 30 round mags. 16” ballistics without worrying about brace issues. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/43482/0B5E8D97-E96C-48B3-8223-9C6AC03EA2BA_jpe-2728261.JPG 8 year old nephew ringing steel plates at 80 yards with the Beretta. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/43482/8D09ACE1-D141-4214-8E30-7995532252D9_jpe-2728267.JPG @southrnshooter What is the safety mod? Because the new fenced safety is the only negative to this rifle IMO |
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Posted: 3/13/2023 2:39:22 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: @southrnshooter What is the safety mod? Because the new fenced safety is the only negative to this rifle IMO It doesn’t have anything to do with the fence, but with fixing the extremely tight safety these come with. When mine was new it was hard for me to put the safety on or off due to the tension from the spring that holds it in place. It was impossible for my wife to move it at all. Pull the safety out and sand down the middle hump as shown below. Do a little at a time until it slides on safe and off safe easily. I had to test mine about 3 times before I took enough off. Link to Beretta Forum on this subject. Fixing a tight safety.  Attached FileHow to remove the safety.  Beretta Carbine Right to Left Safety Swap |
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Posted: 3/18/2023 6:49:23 PM EDT
[#49]
Dont get them anything less than what you’d get for yourself….H&k, Sig or B&T.
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Posted: 3/18/2023 8:27:09 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dont get them anything less than what you’d get for yourself….H&k, Sig or B&T. B&T is just another run-of-the-mill straight blowback action, no? |
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