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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/3/2023 7:53:05 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wsix: Any gear in the right hands is effective. I've yet to hear any troop say their gear saved the day. In the end, our gear in more a vanity project than an absolute necessity. in 1994 I was issued the first model LBV, 4 3x30 M16 pouches, two canteens with pouches, two compass pouches, a buttpack and a lg ALICE pack. It worked. End of story. I'm just going to point out that the above mentioned set of gear is pretty close to what we have been talking about in this thread. It doesn't have the wide belt pad, and the harness is a LBV instead of the 6 or 8 point Yokes. It's about a return / rediscovery of the belt mounted kit. TBH, guys like you who were issued this stuff could probably throw some decent tips our way. I had an old Vietnam era Marine scold me and helped me set up my ALICE gear when I was a teenager. It wasn't the exact same thing he wore, but it was close enough. Got alot of tips like dummy-cord all the pouches to the belt with paracord or something in addition to the ALICE clips. And to find an old H-harness instead of the crappy Y-harnesses. Showed me how to wear the pack sitting on top of the belt kit, though he preferred loosening the kit slightly, and running the pack's belt above the LBE's belt. (The British style style wide pad and 'shelf' created by the pouches fixes this problem. Though I've thought about running a 1" webbing 'belt' to fasten just above the British style LBE belt simply to stabilize and pull the bottom of the pack in closer to my back and lock it there, so that it won't shift off the pouches while rucking, especially across heavier terrain. Gotta put some more thought into that.) I saw my old ALICE rig the other day in a storage tub and noted that it still had paracord and zip ties on the pouches instead of the metal ALICE clips. |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 6/5/2023 4:20:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wsix]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By marnsdorff: I'm just going to point out that the above mentioned set of gear is pretty close to what we have been talking about in this thread. It doesn't have the wide belt pad, and the harness is a LBV instead of the 6 or 8 point Yokes. It's about a return / rediscovery of the belt mounted kit. TBH, guys like you who were issued this stuff could probably throw some decent tips our way. I try, but since I got out in 2000 and missed the war, people devalue my opinions on these things. And that's fine. I certainly don't know anything about fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan. Fortunately, I don't live in Iraq or Afghanistan. |
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Posted: 6/6/2023 9:46:44 AM EDT
[#3]
Well, I think that has been the gist of this thread, in that the old cold war vets have "relevance" again, although I would argue they always did because some things are timeless, regardless. If you look at examples from the French and Indian wars, the War of Independence, and even the Civil War, you will see more relevance than a lot of the stuff from the G-WOT. I was also trained by old Vietnam hands, where this legacy was put to more use than current wars.
The key, IMHO, is to recognize where and when to use what T,T,P's, and not be stuck in any one way of doing things, merely because that was your experience, or what you're good at. Many vets these days are having trouble "switching gears" and thinking in terms of more peer-to-peer engagements, where they do not own airspace, much less the whole battlespace. Case in point, IMHO, our over-dependence on BA, vehicles, and endless supply chain. Getting back in the bush with a belt kit and rucksack is re-learning how to be stealthy, mobile, and independent. For those that have an interest in that sort of thing. You could look at this stuff as a vanity project. For sure, you can always take what you have, and go accomplish the mission. But if you have the time and wherewithal, you constantly improve your position. And for me that includes my load bearing equipment. In fact, that has been my passion all these years. Some guys have improved our weapons. Some guys have improved our tactics. Etc. Not that you can't do without it, but if you can, you give yourself every edge available. |
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Posted: 6/6/2023 12:19:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#4]
Unboxing of Yoke and Hip Belt from Kitmonster, UK. See post #30 on pg 19 for details. Arrived today, which was fast, and worth the "carriage" charge.
Fine quality kit, and almost no "remediation" of loose threads required. I ordered it with a "roll buckle", and I was shocked to see that the "roll buckle" was in very brightly finished steel. Buckle attracts a magnet, so bead-blasting it to a dull finish (if it was stainless steel) is not an option. Fortunately, the buckle is NOT sewn-in, so replacing it with another buckle is simple. I >>might<< paint it, but I think I will substitute a 2" wide Fastex buckle. Doing so will allow me to make a belt "extender" (Kovatch Clip) for possible use over heavy garments. So far, quite pleased with the items. Next step is to inventory Multicam pouches for it and begin to rig it out. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/6/2023 12:57:16 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raf: I >>might<< paint it, but I think I will substitute a 2" wide Fastex buckle. Doing so will allow me to make a belt "extender" (Kovatch Clip) for possible use over heavy garments. *coughcough* plastic Cobra buckles *coughcough* And that belt extender should probably be mentioned. Basically it's two buckles on the end of a few inches of webbing. Designed to quickly expand how wide your belt is without having to play with the belt adjustments, which allows you to safety-tape them in place so they don't come loose while you are rucking or whatever. The extenders are usually used because you are putting on thick, heavy clothing. Think going static and throwing on a few heavy layers. Either that or you just did a late night Taco Bell run. Anyways. This is what they look like:  They are a useful bit of equipment that most people wouldn't think about. |
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Posted: 6/6/2023 1:42:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#6]
Thanx for kind comments and useful suggestions!
I EDC wear a plastic cobra buckle on my jeans' belt and have done so for years. Such a buckle is certainly a useful alternative to the fastex buckle, but I have many appropriate fastex buckles available for use. Is there some objective reason why the plastic cobra buckle is preferable to the fastex buckle? If so, will buy some plastic cobra buckles from MM. Yes, the Kovatch clip (belt extender) is a hold-over from late ALICE days, when re-adjusting the length of the ALICE pistol belt was a sure-fire PITA. As you have noted, the "clip/extender" has its' uses even today, and possibly on non-ALICE items. The belt extender/Kovatch clip is easily stored on most web gear, clipped around the pistol belt and fastened to itself, or find another point to secure it. One can make an adjustable, No-Sew version of the belt-adjuster with suitable webbing, appropriate fasteners/clips, and a couple of appropriate tri-glide buckles. There is a certain minimum length when doing the No-Sew version, since the anchoring tri-glide buckles take up some unavoidable horizontal room/space on the device. I think an "adjustable", No-Sew belt adjuster could be made as small as about 6" minimum adjustment, with room for significantly longer adjustment. FWIW, I never liked the first (grey) version of plastic ALICE buckles, as they are harder to disengage, and are "reputed" to be more fragile than the later black fastex buckles. Regardless, the original "grey" buckles are so scarce now as to become "collector's items" with prices to match. |
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Posted: 6/6/2023 2:31:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#7]
Unboxing of Multicam "DFLCS V2 H-GEAR" LBV harness and belt. Size "L".
Search on Ebay: USGI GCS H-Harness Load Bearing Vest DF-LCS V2 OCP/Multicam "NEW ". Can't link directly without revealing personal info, sorry. Suggest observing supplied pix closely. AFAIK, this is an "Eagle" item made by another contractor (Garret Container Systems) for the Mil. 1/2" thick shoulder pads, which may, or may not be, problematic if other items, such as body armor or heavy packs are worn over them. Item is well-made, with some minor "remediation" of loose threads required. Removable Sternum strap--always a good idea-- supplied. Front/Side-belts can accept user-installed/supplied internal plastic "stiffeners" and padding if desired. Mesh rear panel not at all; it's mesh with 5 rows of MOLLE webbing sewed onto it. Possibly some 1/16" thick black HDPE "strips" can be slid in underneath the "unused" PALS webbing on rear panel to increase vertical rigidity. Suggest that this item might be an "acceptable" modern platform for a belt-based kit. I would choose this item over any sort of GI-based ALICE belt carriage system, having used the ALICE rigs, with all their flaws. Your call if the price is worth it, but IMHO worth considering. I understand that there are folks who are constrained by their finances to re-purpose ALICE gear; I get it. This item seems to "bridge" the gap between the expensive Brit items and the ALICE belt system. There are certainly other belt -based systems and components out there. Suggest you closely investigate all possibilities--and their cost-- before deciding. YMMV. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/6/2023 7:04:44 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raf: Thanx for kind comments and useful suggestions! I EDC wear a plastic cobra buckle on my jeans' belt and have done so for years. Such a buckle is certainly a useful alternative to the fastex buckle, but I have many appropriate fastex buckles available for use. Is there some objective reason why the plastic cobra buckle is preferable to the fastex buckle? If so, will buy some plastic cobra buckles from MM. Yes, the Kovatch clip (belt extender) is a hold-over from late ALICE days, when re-adjusting the length of the ALICE pistol belt was a sure-fire PITA. As you have noted, the "clip/extender" has its' uses even today, and possibly on non-ALICE items. The belt extender/Kovatch clip is easily stored on most web gear, clipped around the pistol belt and fastened to itself, or find another point to secure it. One can make an adjustable, No-Sew version of the belt-adjuster with suitable webbing, appropriate fasteners/clips, and a couple of appropriate tri-glide buckles. There is a certain minimum length when doing the No-Sew version, since the anchoring tri-glide buckles take up some unavoidable horizontal room/space on the device. I think an "adjustable", No-Sew belt adjuster could be made as small as about 6" minimum adjustment, with room for significantly longer adjustment. FWIW, I never liked the first (grey) version of plastic ALICE buckles, as they are harder to disengage, and are "reputed" to be more fragile than the later black fastex buckles. Regardless, the original "grey" buckles are so scarce now as to become "collector's items" with prices to match. The plastic cobra buckles are (slightly) more durable than the fastex and are far harder to have freeze in winter. (Fastex buckles tend to freeze shut in any kind of icy situations) However, you say you already have a bunch of fastex buckles sitting around. Just use those then. The cobra ones aren't worth order news ones for this use. It's other benefits (stronger for instance) won't matter in this useage. I've got a couple fastex buckles I've got sitting around I'm going to be using on some projects too. Just because I have them. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/6/2023 7:10:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: marnsdorff]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raf: Unboxing of Multicam "DFLCS V2 H-GEAR" LBV harness and belt. Search on Ebay: USGI GCS H-Harness Load Bearing Vest DF-LCS V2 OCP/Multicam "NEW ". Can't link directly without revealing personal info, sorry. Suggest observing supplied pix closely. AFAIK, this is an "Eagle" item made by another contractor (Garret Container Systems) for the Mil. 1/2" thick shoulder pads, which may, or may not be, problematic if other items, such as body armor or heavy packs are worn over them. Item is well-made, with some minor "remediation" of loose threads required. Removable Sternum strap--always a good idea-- supplied. Front/Side-belts can accept user-installed/supplied internal plastic "stiffeners" and padding if desired. Mesh rear panel not at all; it's mesh with 5 rows of MOLLE webbing sewed onto it. Suggest that this item might be an "acceptable" modern platform for a belt-based kit. I would choose this item over any sort of GI-based ALICE belt carriage system, having used the ALICE rigs, with all their flaws. Your call if the price is worth it, but IMHO worth considering. I understand that there are folks who are constrained by their finances to re-purpose ALICE gear; I get it. This item seems to "bridge" the gap between the expensive Brit items and the ALICE belt system. There are certainly other belt -based systems and components out there. Suggest you closely investigate all possibilities--and their cost-- before deciding. YMMV. Hrmmm....interesting.... Is the belt stiff enough to run on the waist and stabilize the load, or is it super flimsy? Will it adjust long enough to LET it rid down on the waist? Is the vest adjustable enough in the front to run magazine pouches on your sides instead of your front? It looks like it would be more stable and not sag if you ran another 2 x webbing straps off the back harness. Maybe from where the bottom row of MOLLE is, go 45 degrees or so off in each direction from the end of the MOLLE strip to connect to the belt. Basically aim to have it connect right under where the canteens will fit. Edit: Is it as large and oversized as the prior airforce H-harness stuff? |
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MD, USA
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Posted: 6/6/2023 7:33:23 PM EDT
[#10]
I have one of those H harnesses. It’s nice and built well, but I don’t think it wears well around the waist. It really isn’t a belt with built in suspenders. It’s more like a cummerbund with suspenders. It is a nice bit of kit, but it rides too high for my liking.
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Posted: 6/7/2023 7:12:54 AM EDT
[#11]
Yeah the Brits and their "roll pin buckles". That always was the weak point of their system, and the first item I would replace. Lotsa different choices. I use poly Cobras these days. Both side adjustable if you have enough webbing. If the one side is shorter, just off-set that direction. More comfortable proned out when not directly on top of pants buckle anyways.
A shiny, jingly metal buckle is just not up to snuff these days. And metal corrodes in really hot/humid climes. |
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Posted: 6/7/2023 8:20:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By marnsdorff: Hrmmm....interesting.... Is the belt stiff enough to run on the waist and stabilize the load, or is it super flimsy? Will it adjust long enough to LET it rid down on the waist? Is the vest adjustable enough in the front to run magazine pouches on your sides instead of your front? It looks like it would be more stable and not sag if you ran another 2 x webbing straps off the back harness. Maybe from where the bottom row of MOLLE is, go 45 degrees or so off in each direction from the end of the MOLLE strip to connect to the belt. Basically aim to have it connect right under where the canteens will fit. Edit: Is it as large and oversized as the prior airforce H-harness stuff? I'm 6'3" with long torso. The rig can be adjusted (vertically) to allow lower 2/3 of the belt to ride below my iliac crest. Shorter people should have no vertical adjustment issues. When adjusted for my 38" waist, there is about 6" horizontal gap between the front edges of the front/side panels--that is the maximum gap with the included 2 x 1" wide front straps. A person with a smaller waist could adjust overall length of the belt using the rear belt adjustments, thus retaining the 6" gap in front. A person of greater girth can detach the belt's rear "T" type fasteners/adjustors and gain "some" girth by extending the inner 1-1/2 wide webbing belt a little bit. This means reduced belt rigidity, as well as being a huge PITA, so some 1" wide belt extenders for the front would be much simpler and easier. As it is, with my body, the adjustments on the rig are almost at maximum for vertical and horizontal. There may be some additional adjustment in both dimensions, but probably not much. Runing additional vertical straps off PALS panel on the upper rear of the rig is a possibility. No expert, but the original USAF "Defensor Fortis" rig may be "Gen 1", this unit being "Gen 3". I can't say what the differences between the generations might be, but they all look very similar in the pix I've seen. If this rig pans out, there are many similar ones in USAF ABU on Ebay which are quite inexpensive and which can be dyed to either brown or green cast. |
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ITA
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Posted: 6/7/2023 12:28:23 PM EDT
[#13]
Regarding the DFLCS vest, there are a few variants.
i have the complete original EAGLE OD set that has 3 distinct panel joined with straps and triglides just like the Eagle H harness (including the possibility of removing the lumbar part). I don't know how it works as i don't think i've ever worn it, but i think it looked nice for the time. I've only used the MMR ruck with the 4 sustainment pouches once for a 5 days hike. There is atleast another variant that has elastic, some variant have that elastic covered with a spandex sleeve, some not. These were made by Eagle, LBT, GCS (Garrett container systems). That v2 version i think can be adjusted similar to the Molle2 FLC belt. Don't know how it wears, but looks nice with the whole lenght of the belt being usable. There is a channel on youtube called Renaissance Marine TV that seem to like it and it had it assembled in various way including with a row of Tactical Tailor utility pouches that make it look like a british belt kit. Again, don't know if it works. |
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ITA
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Posted: 6/7/2023 2:02:16 PM EDT
[#14]
 MY FINAL LONG RANGE RECON PATROL LBE...I PROMISE! |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 6/7/2023 4:30:58 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryThat looks comfortable. I'm curious as to how well magazines fit in the GP pouches. |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 7:41:42 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By joeviterbo: Regarding the DFLCS vest, there are a few variants. i have the complete original EAGLE OD set that has 3 distinct panel joined with straps and triglides just like the Eagle H harness (including the possibility of removing the lumbar part). I don't know how it works as i don't think i've ever worn it, but i think it looked nice for the time. I've only used the MMR ruck with the 4 sustainment pouches once for a 5 days hike. There is atleast another variant that has elastic, some variant have that elastic covered with a spandex sleeve, some not. These were made by Eagle, LBT, GCS (Garrett container systems). That v2 version i think can be adjusted similar to the Molle2 FLC belt. Don't know how it wears, but looks nice with the whole lenght of the belt being usable. There is a channel on youtube called Renaissance Marine TV that seem to like it and it had it assembled in various way including with a row of Tactical Tailor utility pouches that make it look like a british belt kit. Again, don't know if it works. |
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ITA
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Posted: 6/8/2023 9:53:19 AM EDT
[#17]
Raf, i meant this variant, which was an upgrade to the original one.
It has self ajusting elastic. Good for security police guarding gates that could put it with or without armor without adjustments, i don't think that version was good enough for carrying heavier loads. 
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Posted: 6/8/2023 10:03:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By joeviterbo: Raf, i meant this variant, which was an upgrade to the original one. It has self ajusting elastic. Good for security police guarding gates that could put it with or without armor without adjustments, i don't think that version was good enough for carrying heavier loads. https://www.venturesurplus.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/USAF-DF-LCS-ABU-New-Center-600x600.jpg |
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ITA
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Posted: 6/8/2023 11:20:33 AM EDT
[#19]
DFLCS harness variants:
original one circa 2006  official generation 2 with elastic.   Generation 3 is similar to the generation 2, but fron fastex are reversed so it can be cinched by pulling down, not up.  LBT version with a flap and velcro, not unlike a plate carrier.  The official V2 h harness  Early pattern v2 back panel vs. newer version.   |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 11:45:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By joeviterbo: DFLCS harness variants: original one circa 2006 https://www.bickyikeda.com/data/bickyikeda/product/20200317_06f976.JPG official generation 2 with elastic. https://www.bickyikeda.com/data/bickyikeda/product/20200128_74ea75.JPG https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/DF-LCS-Gen-III-with-pouches.jpg Generation 3 is similar to the generation 2, but fron fastex are reversed so it can be cinched by pulling down, not up. https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/DF-LCS-Gen-III-front-view.jpg LBT version with a flap and velcro, not unlike a plate carrier. https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0-npyv3E7wk/XeUfaOtSq1I/AAAAAAAA1HM/ZYmE2PUv95w3oR4s5A3-ouNDe8Jjmp0BwCLcBGAsYHQ/s400/%2BLondon%2BBridge%2BTrading%2BH-Harness%2BMolle%2BVest%2B%252812%2529.jpg The official V2 h harness https://www.venturesurplus.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/USAF-DF-LCS-ABU-V2-New-Back-scaled.jpg Early pattern v2 back panel vs. newer version. https://www.okimiri.com/photo/goods/23938/23938_2.gif https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/P4cAAOSwFsFjXvHa/s-l1600.png Not entirely sure the purpose of some of the QD buckles, on some versions, unless they are there to allow quick removal of the gear from a casualty. Aside from that, some of the QD buckles seem needless complications. Perhaps I'm missing something. BTW, made and installed some 1/16" thick HDPE sheet "reinforcing plates" and installed them into the front/side portions of the belt. Front/side panels far more rigid, and will be better still with some closed cell form inserts next to user's body. I >>may<< taper the front lower edge of the HDPE inserts so that belt does not conflict with top of user's legs. |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 12:25:04 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryThis is my version put this together back when. 
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Posted: 6/8/2023 2:53:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#22]
FWIW, I have posted in this thread about "less-expensive" gear NOT because I disparage "Brit Kit" but because of the very high shipping prices.
As mentioned, I just took possession of some "suitable" "Brit" gear from Kit monster, (Yoke and Belt) and will need to evaluate it. I'm also evaluating other platforms, such as mentioned above. Will post again concerning "niche" applications which might be "adaptable" to the belt-worn platform proposed here. Hopefully some of these relatively inexpensive "niche" platforms may prove useful. It may be that some relatively inexpensive (surplus) platforms will serve for niche firearms, such as the M1 rifles, the SKS, and other rifles fed by stripper clips. So much the better, I reckon. I believe the belt-mounted platform discussed in this thread has much to recommend it, and have spent some personal $ in pursuing the concept. Just trying, by showing possible and niche alternatives, that such platform can serve many users. The more the merrier, I figure. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/8/2023 4:09:56 PM EDT
[#23]
So. Off the wall question.
Anyone try rigging up their PLCE gear with an 8 point harness, but crossing two of the front and rear harnesses, like in this picture of a SMERSH setup I found online?  Basically 2 of the front harnesses running back to the utility / buttpack / canteen pouches (probably the canteen pouches), while two of the rear harnesses cross and connect to the rear 2 of the ammo pouches? It looks like it would stabilize the rig better than just running them normally. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/9/2023 12:28:06 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By marnsdorff: So. Off the wall question. Anyone try rigging up their PLCE gear with an 8 point harness, but crossing two of the front and rear harnesses, like in this picture of a SMERSH setup I found online? https://i.ibb.co/tXyFTDY/IMG-8935-1000x1000.jpg Basically 2 of the front harnesses running back to the utility / buttpack / canteen pouches (probably the canteen pouches), while two of the rear harnesses cross and connect to the rear 2 of the ammo pouches? It looks like it would stabilize the rig better than just running them normally. I'm totally going to steal that idea and pick up some webbing and triglides for my belt. Thanks for posting it! |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/9/2023 3:05:42 AM EDT
[#25]
Ya man. I'm going to eventually get around to trying it out on my rig, but right now it's taken apart as I'm working on doing some other mods to it.
It really does look like it would pull the rig in tighter, making it more stable. It's not the first time I've seen one rigged like this, I had forgotten about it until I saw this picture today. |
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Posted: 6/9/2023 6:54:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Diz]
[#26]
Good find. Thanks for posting that. Dunno I guess we'd have to try it. Interesting in that they're using metal hardware and one big buttpack. Begs the question, if metal works better for them, or just cheaper to mfg. than plastics. Also, and this is just me, they take a step forwards with some innovative rigging, but take a step back with a big bouncy butt pack. Notice it looks like one set of straps support the base, and the other direct-attaches to butt pack like USGI.
My guess is, this arrangement is much like a sling load, or bandolier, in that the load pulls both fore and aft, which might help. But I think what happens is that it matters more about what the front load (mags) weigh, in relation to the back load (in this case buttpack, possibly rucksack). If you are running say 8 fully loaded AK mags (probably 7.62 in this case), that's a nice counter-weight. Same with 12 x 5.56. In this case you are approaching some kind of balancing act. But if you "only" have 6 x 5.56, there's not enough weight difference to "transfer". The only other thing I can think of is fiddle-factor. When you're tired little things become magnified. Having extra straps crossing hither and yon might be a PITA getting back on in some cases. I have to laugh here because I've been working non-stop for several weeks on an improved belt kit, and no matter what I do, the damn thing is just as heavy as it was before. Although the trick is to tailor the pain into something manageable, and I think weight distribution has a lot to do with it. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/9/2023 1:13:03 PM EDT
[#27]
Steel is basically free for the Russians. They produce a ton of steel, subsidized by the state. Part of the reason they still use steel cased ammunition.
Also, their buttpack is different in use than how we use buttpacks. If you look closely at pictures of their use, they are set up to use as a multi-purpose pack. Buttpack, small daypack attached to the harness, etc. Though most in-field use I've seen is the same way we use a buttpack, or no buttpack at all (usually when doing vehicle ops). Their buttpack is also mounted higher on the lower back than the American ones, but the magazines and such are usually mounted a little lower, soooooo.... Yea, those mag pouches carry 2 x AK mags each, total of 8 x AK mags AND 4 frag grenades as the regular loadout. Alot of SMERSH rigs also have a couple of pop flares attached to the mag pouches too. (Those mag pouches come in 2x2 mag shingles, with the grenades permanently attached, similar to how the oldschool belt mounted British PLCE mag pouches are doubled up) Diz - have you taken a close look at the Russian SMERSH system, as in how the pouches attach to the belt, the belt to the pad, etc? It might be easier and cheaper and better to do a similar rig for the USA market than a MOLLE based system. Westernized with modern plastic hardware and such. It's a pretty simple system and relatively modular - you can swap in a shingle of utility pouches instead of the buttpack. It's kind of a heavily modernized take on ALICE gear, but with modern yoke and designed around having a pad between the pouches and user. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/9/2023 1:35:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Ok, so I pulled some more pictures of SMERSH rigs. Here you can see the buttpack mounted higher. Personally I'm not super hot about moving the buttpack, and it seems in the field the Russian's aren't either. Though I guess you could double up buttpacks too, kinda like a mini assault pack?
You can also see the 4 pop flares on the rig. And they are running it in a 6 point harness configuration, attaching directly to the belt instead of to the pouches.  Here is someone actually wearing it, 6 point harness, with the straps attached directly to the pouches. You can see how canteen / water bottle pouches fit onto the system. Just like we have been talking about with the British kit.  And here's another view of the 8 point harness setup, attaching directly to the pouches.  You don't see the SMERSH rigs used with alot of the mainstream Russian soldiers, as basically the entire Russian army is mechanized, other than a few special units. Yet it's interesting that they still have it in use. |
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Posted: 6/9/2023 2:30:19 PM EDT
[#29]
For sure you have some interesting things from Russia with love. They basically did a mash-up of Brit and US kit which isn't half bad. And like you said not widely known because, well, Russia. I have studied their stuff before, when designing some AK rigs, but yeah bears some additional consideration.
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MD, USA
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Posted: 6/9/2023 3:03:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Almost there....
Made an ammo pouch and an IFAK pouch. I like to have my IFAK together in a heat sealed vacuum/zip lock bag. Pouch holds that bag. I put a webbing piece in to "pop up" the bag.        
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/9/2023 4:05:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: marnsdorff]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cap6888: Almost there.... Made an ammo pouch and an IFAK pouch. I like to have my IFAK together in a heat sealed vacuum/zip lock bag. Pouch holds that bag. I put a webbing piece in to "pop up" the bag. https://i.postimg.cc/6Qdg1Rk6/IMG-4159.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/pVqbHfpp/IMG-4160.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/tTkf9bRL/IMG-4161.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/FsztsYLG/IMG-4162.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/G2dV0tRF/IMG-4163.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/Nfz3yQ8t/IMG-4164.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/2SLPhgTZ/IMG-4165.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/jjVBXvkk/IMG-4166.jpg Those look solid enough. Looks like your stitching is getting better. Did you reinforce the tuck tab with anything, or is it just doubled up webbing? |
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Posted: 6/9/2023 4:13:23 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Diz: For sure you have some interesting things from Russia with love. They basically did a mash-up of Brit and US kit which isn't half bad. And like you said not widely known because, well, Russia. I have studied their stuff before, when designing some AK rigs, but yeah bears some additional consideration. It looks like it but seems that they still didn't do full coverage of the pouches so you still have 6 or 8 different rub points all below any padding whereas the Brit hippo pad has full coverage of the pouches top to bottom. The russian stuff looks like they said hey the old vietnam pattern us web gear looks good lets put it on a so so padded belt and add air mesh to the shoulder straps. Also is it nylon or coated canvas? |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/9/2023 4:13:33 PM EDT
[#33]
One last post with SMERSH stuff.
Another way they rig their yoke. This one having the 2 front straps coming off the harness, instead of clipped onto a side D-ring. (this rig is for a russian SVD btw)  Another interesting variation. PLCE style yoke in the back. ALICE style canteen pouches. Thinner buttpack, but with some kind of pouches on the side? Smoke grenades maybe? Looks too big for that. Also note the dump pouch under the buttpack.  And the last one. This time instead of a buttpack, it came with 2 x large utility pouches. Notice the british style tuck-tabs on the pouches. 
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/9/2023 4:16:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: marnsdorff]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ridinshotgun: It looks like it but seems that they still didn't do full coverage of the pouches so you still have 6 or 8 different rub points all below any padding whereas the Brit hippo pad has full coverage of the pouches top to bottom. The russian stuff looks like they said hey the old vietnam pattern us web gear looks good lets put it on a so so padded belt and add air mesh to the shoulder straps. Also is it nylon or coated canvas? Yea. I would drop the belt pad down lower up front so that the mag pouches don't rub your hips or thighs. Oh yea. Nylon. I've seen sets vary from old ALICE style pack cloth, to high-end cordura type fabric, to really crappy stuff. Depending on the brand. TBH, for what it is, it's a good setup. Modular and using as many stock pieces as possible to rig for multiple weapons types, and cheap to make. The metal tends to rust eventually. If I were running an AK, I'd consider one of these rigs. It's right out of the box, just add some canteen pouches. Maybe swap out the metal stuff for plastic stuff. It's not the best, but it's cheap and ready to go. However, they are basically un-obtainable right now in the USA. |
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MD, USA
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Posted: 6/9/2023 4:25:15 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By marnsdorff: Those look solid enough. Looks like your stitching is getting better. Did you reinforce the tuck tab with anything, or is it just doubled up webbing? I put a small piece of thin plastic inside the folded over webbing. I think I should have give it just an extra 1/8 inch of slack. It’s a little snug when I flip it to put the tuck tab in, but it works. |
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Posted: 6/9/2023 7:27:04 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By marnsdorff: Ok, so I pulled some more pictures of SMERSH rigs. Here you can see the buttpack mounted higher. Personally I'm not super hot about moving the buttpack, and it seems in the field the Russian's aren't either. Though I guess you could double up buttpacks too, kinda like a mini assault pack? You can also see the 4 pop flares on the rig. And they are running it in a 6 point harness configuration, attaching directly to the belt instead of to the pouches. https://i.ibb.co/GRNp6ph/5.jpg I run one of my Bundeswehr Flectarn LBEs with two field packs- one mounted up high. If I pack minimally, I can get everything I need for an overnighter on it. |
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ITA
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Posted: 6/10/2023 6:59:13 AM EDT
[#37]
There are Many iterarions of smersh/partizan/sbruya harness. Earlier version had basically a thin rectangular belt pad Just like the alice One with a straight Copy of plce suspenders.
Quality is nothing to write home about, but It Is a solid foot soldier rig. Things that are good in my opinion are the fact that suspenders are attached to the belt pad, Independent of the belt. Whichever belt you use Is weaved between the pouches and the pad belt loops, making them quite stable, expecially in side to side movement. The russians were forward thinking enough to provide the lower part of the pouches with another loop to weave a strap thru Every pouch, making them more stable. The negative to me Is the lack of extra pouches, there Is only ammo, ffd and buttpack, It Is difficult to customize. Maybe the Pkm ammo pouches could be rigged as sustainment pouches instead of buttpack. Regarding the buttpack worn High on the back, I wore an issued ephod with a similar sized pack in that position. In a military environment i am not a fan of that unless you carry a radio or some specialist equipment. In a field/hunting environment It May be good even if It Is somehow less stable than a proper rucksack and It Is impossible to retrieve any item without talking off the rig. It Is also a Place where the load swings a lot when taking a Quick kneeling or prone position. |
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Posted: 6/10/2023 10:59:25 AM EDT
[#38]
For the DIYers, Rockywoods has announced a 50% off sale on some of their fabrics. "Use promo code 50off at checkout to apply your discount".
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Posted: 6/10/2023 1:16:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#39]
From Diz: "I have to laugh here because I've been working non-stop for several weeks on an improved belt kit, and no matter what I do, the damn thing is just as heavy as it was before. Although the trick is to tailor the pain into something manageable, and I think weight distribution has a lot to do with it."
Not being an expert (such as yourself), I think it may be beneficial to step back and "sleep" on it. Sometimes good ideas come when one is not "pushing" things. Obviously, the idea is to carry the anticipated load, and distribute it so that the gear is well-balanced front-to-back, and side-to-side. Some carried items may be used/expended, but that (ideally) ought not make a huge difference in how the remaining load carries--hopefully. Maybe if the 3/4" Fastex QD buckles weren't so fragile, perhaps a switch to 3/4" webbing and such buckles might be an alternative. I dunno, but perhaps the 3/4" buckles are made out of "improved" plastics nowadays? Buy a few new ones and stomp on 'em to find out--preferably straight out of the deep-freeze. I feel your pain, my friend. Whenever I try to remember some "detail", I often deliberately "let-go" and it soon "pops" into my mind, unbidden. Sometimes I do the same when trying to figure out how to accomplish some task. Once the goal is in one's mind, the solution eventually comes to one's mind, being common sense. All best wishes! @Diz |
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Posted: 6/11/2023 8:54:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Diz]
[#40]
Ha yeah that's just what I did Raf. Went out and did some yard work yesterday and came back to it fresh today.
Hey looking good on those pouches. See you bobbed the edges on the side flaps. Right on. Not bad on the tuck tabs! Yeah Joe is right, Russian stuff, is well, Russian but it ain't THAT bad. Gives you some interesting things to look at. And if all else fails, makes good patterns for your own work. I took an Eagle black LBV apart, patterned it, and made my first LBV from it. Also took those patterns and gave to my buddy John, but that's another story. Glad to see DIY'ers still at it. |
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Posted: 6/11/2023 9:51:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Sinister]
[#41]
I've rigged ALICE-PLCE hybrids like the SMERSH stuff, and it's just OK. Once you get webbing all over the place (trying to get it to ride correctly without shifting and bouncing) you'll find it's also a freaking mess trying to doff and don in the dark (you can often thread your arm incorrectly through straps, realize you're off, and have to remove and dress again).
Compound frustration by adding a plate carrier, and even more complexity by adding a day or patrol pack or radio. In marnsdorff's photos you can see how high a buttpack can raise the short-back pouch shelf. If you start with an ALICE or PLCE H-harness or yoke you can make a "Y" strap with two attachments for each front yoke buckle. This helps prevent belt sag from your side pouches. The Brits have a steel piece you can route pouch webbing through. These chingaderos:  
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Posted: 6/11/2023 10:19:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#42]
Found two types, which might give folks some ideaa:
Pat 58: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/british-army-58-plce-pattern-belt-313102689 PLCE Belt Loops: https://www.kitmonster.co.uk/product_info.php/products_id/1082 One could easily make something like this, with some snaps, webbing and a "d"-ring or perhaps a tri-glide buckle. Of course, there are all sorts of MOLLE adaptors, not limited to this style: https://airsoft-sports.com/Combat-Gear/Molle-Attachment/Molle-Adapter-D-Ring-Oliv |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/11/2023 12:40:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: marnsdorff]
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sinister: you can see how high a buttpack can raise the short-back pouch shelf. I've got a Fireforce buttpack rigged to a MOLLE Brit PLCE style hip pad, and the top sits perfectly flush with the British utility pouches I'm using for canteen pouches. But yea, most buttpack setups sit up too high to create a shelf. I'm also running an 8 point harness, which runs a strap to each pouch (two to the buttpack) to stop that sag, which is real. I used to hate that about my ALICE, and had rigged up something like you had suggested (a Y mod) 
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/11/2023 12:55:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: marnsdorff]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raf: Found two types, which might give folks some ideaa: Pat 58: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/british-army-58-plce-pattern-belt-313102689 PLCE Belt Loops: https://www.kitmonster.co.uk/product_info.php/products_id/1082 One could easily make something like this, with some snaps, webbing and a "d"-ring or perhaps a tri-glide buckle. Of course, there are all sorts of MOLLE adaptors, not limited to this style: https://airsoft-sports.com/Combat-Gear/Molle-Attachment/Molle-Adapter-D-Ring-Oliv You can also sew a plastic D-ring with a few inches of looped webbing to each pouch. You can see where I did that to the AOR1 mag pouch in the above picture. (I've also since done it to the utility pouches too) Or you can sew it directly to the belt if you want to go that route. Plastic D-rings are like $0.19 each and a yard of webbing is a buck or two. (Use 3/4" webbing to squeeze between close together molle columns) If you wanted to make your setup more permanent, you could also probably weave webbing between the pouch and the belt, as if it were a malice clip. Sew it shut, with a loop above for a plastic D-ring. If you did it tight enough, that would lock the pouch and the belt together with the D-ring attached to both of them. |
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Posted: 6/11/2023 2:03:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By marnsdorff: One last post with SMERSH stuff. Another way they rig their yoke. This one having the 2 front straps coming off the harness, instead of clipped onto a side D-ring. (this rig is for a russian SVD btw) https://i.ibb.co/fnq1YNN/Smersh-SVD-680x680.webp Another interesting variation. PLCE style yoke in the back. ALICE style canteen pouches. Thinner buttpack, but with some kind of pouches on the side? Smoke grenades maybe? Looks too big for that. Also note the dump pouch under the buttpack. https://i.ibb.co/nBR1qLt/Smersh-AK-MOLLE-SSO-1-680x680.webp And the last one. This time instead of a buttpack, it came with 2 x large utility pouches. Notice the british style tuck-tabs on the pouches. https://i.ibb.co/DppMtM6/Smersh-PKM-7-680x680.webp WW2 assault packs. Not as high but almost  You now need one of those butt pads the ruskies wear off their gear because of their curious tactic of riding on top of tanks and afvs |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/11/2023 7:29:17 PM EDT
[#46]
 Infantryman Belt Kit Setup Saw this earlier. Dude's kind of a chatter box, you can skip around the video, but it's of interest. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/11/2023 9:29:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dedreckon: ou now need one of those butt pads the ruskies wear off their gear because of their curious tactic of riding on top of tanks and afvs It's because the AFV's and such are deathtraps if they get hit. Hard to get in and out, flash fires. |
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Posted: 6/12/2023 1:12:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By marnsdorff: You can also sew a plastic D-ring with a few inches of looped webbing to each pouch. You can see where I did that to the AOR1 mag pouch in the above picture. (I've also since done it to the utility pouches too) Or you can sew it directly to the belt if you want to go that route. Plastic D-rings are like $0.19 each and a yard of webbing is a buck or two. (Use 3/4" webbing to squeeze between close together molle columns) If you wanted to make your setup more permanent, you could also probably weave webbing between the pouch and the belt, as if it were a malice clip. Sew it shut, with a loop above for a plastic D-ring. If you did it tight enough, that would lock the pouch and the belt together with the D-ring attached to both of them. Hopefully such 3/4" plastic items are nowadays made of stouter plastic than the older versions, or perhaps re-designed to be stouter. Fastex does not inform me of their proprietary product changes, LOL Switching to modern 3/4" webbing and modern, perhaps better made, plastic fasteners seems to me to be a reasonable way to reduce gear bulk/weight overall, albeit in a relatively minor way. Still, the ounces/grams have a way of adding-up. Let's see what the Experts have to say. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/12/2023 6:06:03 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raf: Decent (Mil-spec) 3/4" webbing may be fine for most individual LBE ensembles, but unless things have changed, the 3/4" QD buckles are quite fragile. I have had to replace quite a few QD buckles (mostly the "female" part) on "legacy" Brit gear that used such QD buckles. Scant experience with other 3/4" items, such as D-rings and tri-glides, but I've never seen failed 3/4" items except the QD buckles. YMMV. Hopefully such 3/4" plastic items are nowadays made of stouter plastic than the older versions, or perhaps re-designed to be stouter. Fastex does not inform me of their proprietary product changes, LOL Switching to modern 3/4" webbing and modern, perhaps better made, plastic fasteners seems to me to be a reasonable way to reduce gear bulk/weight overall, albeit in a relatively minor way. Still, the ounces/grams have a way of adding-up. Let's see what the Experts have to say. I'm using modern, milspec 3/4" webbing and 1" modern, mil-spec D-rings as hangers on pouches, sewn on with good bonded nylon T70 thread. I'm not using the 3/4" webbing to save weight btw, I'm using it to squeeze between the sewn-on molle attachments on 2 x column molle pouches. The 1" webbing won't fit. You are right though, 3/4" fastex closures have a bad reputation, more than just for fragility. They are hard to manipulate under stress without looking at them, especially with gloves hands for instance, As for the webbing - I am running an 8 point harness, attached to 7 different pouches (buttpack having 2 attachments) - this rig will probably hold twice my bodyweight without thinking. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 6/13/2023 3:39:44 PM EDT
[#50]
I don't like full or half back harnesses, for extreme hot weather environment I don't want my upper back covered in a lot of material. I understand guys love the ability to carry a 3L camelbak on the back of a harness, but you can still carry water in an assault pack or ruck. I would prefer a belt kit with the ability to to have the back pretty opened up and as free of material as possible for breathability.
The thing that I think is a negative with the Velocity Systems jungle kit (other than the outrageous price) is the thickness of the belt. That belt is way too beefy and that means more material that means more insulation and more sweat in that area where it's worn. A more slim MOLLE belt with some pouches and a good modern H or X or hybrid suspenders set-up. A lot of pouches are now being made with the MOLLE slots cut to accommodate the MOLLE two piece belts pretty nicely. It's definitely something I need to play around with and experiment with more...after I do about a dozen other things that are higher up on priority list (never enough time and money). |
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