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Posted: 12/3/2017 1:48:15 PM EDT
[#1]
Make like Nike and Just Do It
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Posted: 12/4/2017 12:03:30 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Make like Nike and Just Do It You can change your SBR's barrel length, caliber, etc. at will, an unlimited number of times, back and fourth, etc. No need to notify the ATF or anything official. |
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Posted: 12/4/2017 12:30:28 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. You can change your SBR's barrel length, caliber, etc. at will, an unlimited number of times, back and fourth, etc. No need to notify the ATF or anything official. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Make like Nike and Just Do It You can change your SBR's barrel length, caliber, etc. at will, an unlimited number of times, back and fourth, etc. No need to notify the ATF or anything official. |
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Posted: 12/4/2017 12:57:54 PM EDT
[#4]
...and, to anticipate the follow-up question, there's no requirement that you keep the original upper, or retain the ability to reconfigure the SBR to match the Form 1.
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Posted: 12/4/2017 1:12:42 PM EDT
[#5]
Can anyone cite the law or any literature on this? Or is this an opinion because no one has been prosecuted.
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Posted: 12/4/2017 1:15:33 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can anyone cite the law or any literature on this? Or is this an opinion because no one has been prosecuted. Rifle configuration can be changed at anytime, they ask that you first build it to the specs you applied for, but it’s not required. |
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Posted: 12/4/2017 1:17:16 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can anyone cite the law or any literature on this? Or is this an opinion because no one has been prosecuted. |
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Posted: 12/4/2017 1:28:04 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can anyone cite the law or any literature on this? Or is this an opinion because no one has been prosecuted. |
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Posted: 1/14/2018 3:55:29 PM EDT
[#9]
So if install a DD MK 18 upper, 10.3" barrel on my DD V7S, 11.5" barrel, there will be no issue.
Correct? 77 |
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Posted: 1/14/2018 4:11:19 PM EDT
[#10]
Correct.
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Posted: 1/16/2018 9:41:45 PM EDT
[#11]
With a registered SBR lower, you can use ANY upper. Any caliber (as long as it works in that lower), any barrel length. No legal issues at all.
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Posted: 1/17/2018 12:46:52 PM EDT
[#12]
The OP asked how one would go about permanently changing the "Description of Firearm" portion (item 4) on a 5320.1, for an SBR. He didn't ask about using an alternate upper on a registered lower.
As per the document itself (5320.1), it specifically states: Change of Description or Address: The registrant shall notify the NFA Division, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, 244 Needy Road, Martinsburg, WV 25405, in writing, of any change to the description of the firearm in item 4, or any change to the address of the registrant. "shall notify, in writing" Seems to be quite lucid. 
The above would be the relative portion affecting the permanent change to an SBR's description. If any of you can prove otherwise, I'd love for you to provide actual documentation. An ATF/NFA Ruling or Open Letter would be fantastic. Other than either of these, nothing else would hold legal status. |
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Posted: 1/17/2018 1:08:45 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The OP asked how one would go about permanently changing the "Description of Firearm" portion (item 4) on a 5320.1, for an SBR. He didn't ask about using an alternate upper on a registered lower. Quote HistoryQuoted:
The OP asked how one would go about permanently changing the "Description of Firearm" portion (item 4) on a 5320.1, for an SBR. He didn't ask about using an alternate upper on a registered lower. OP said: I have 2-14.5” SBR’s and instead of doing another SBR, I’m thinking of pinning the FH on it, and using the lower for a 9mm, 10” build, can I just do it, or Di need to redo my Form 1 to the BATFE Reading really is fundamental, after all. |
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Posted: 1/17/2018 1:17:41 PM EDT
[#14]
@ScottS
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah, no, he didn't. He specifically asked about using an alternate upper on a registered lower. Also, he never used the word "permanent;" OP said: He is going to pin a FH on one of his 14.5" uppers, and then use that registered lower to for a 9mm, 10" build. Which simply entails a drop-in block and a 9mm upper. Reading really is fundamental, after all. Clearly, comprehension is more important than reading alone
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Posted: 1/17/2018 1:34:47 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@ScottS If he's pinning a FH to his 14.5, then this is no longer a Title II firearm. Seeing that he plans to use a different length barrel as well as caliber, hence keeping the title II status, he's changing the "Description of Firearm" (as per the pertinent 5320.1) and ATF needs to be notified. Clearly, comprehension is more important than reading alone He's swapping uppers on a registered lower. None of the changes are permanent. You were wrong. Own it. |
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Posted: 1/17/2018 1:35:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The OP asked how one would go about permanently changing the "Description of Firearm" portion (item 4) on a 5320.1, for an SBR. He didn't ask about using an alternate upper on a registered lower. As per the document itself (5320.1), it specifically states: Change of Description or Address: The registrant shall notify the NFA Division, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, 244 Needy Road, Martinsburg, WV 25405, in writing, of any change to the description of the firearm in item 4, or any change to the address of the registrant. "shall notify, in writing" Seems to be quite lucid.
The above would be the relative portion affecting the permanent change to an SBR's description. If any of you can prove otherwise, I'd love for you to provide actual documentation. An ATF/NFA Ruling or Open Letter would be fantastic. Other than either of these, nothing else would hold legal status. However, there is no law requiring you to notify the ATF of a change to a registered item, so if you fail to notify them, there's really no action they could take against you. The only time it might cause a problem would be if you go to transfer the item in the future to a new owner and in a different configuration than the original, now the old Form 1 info won't match the new Form 4, and there will be confusion until you explain that there was a change. |
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Posted: 1/17/2018 1:41:50 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are correct that the Form 1 states what you quoted, but it is simply a request by the ATF, assuming, so they can keep the registry up to date. However, there is no law requiring you to notify the ATF of a change to a registered item, so if you fail to notify them, there's really no action they could take against you. The only time it might cause a problem would be if you go to transfer the item in the future to a new owner and in a different configuration than the original, now the old Form 1 info won't match the new Form 4, and there will be confusion until you explain that there was a change. |
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Posted: 1/17/2018 2:37:22 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How are you not getting this. He's swapping uppers on a registered lower. None of the changes are permanent. You were wrong. Own it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
How are you not getting this. He's swapping uppers on a registered lower. None of the changes are permanent. You were wrong. Own it. He's not swapping uppers, he's permanently changing the firearm from the description in Item 4c & e.
Quoted:However, there is no law requiring you to notify the ATF of a change to a registered item, so if you fail to notify them, there's really no action they could take against you. I never said there was a law/regulation or that the ATF could come after you. The question was referring to the process by which one undergoes when making a permanent change to an SBR, on a 5320.1. As you stated, there might be an issue in the future with the firearm's description not matching that of the registry. So, why wouldn't you want the ATF/NFA to have the latest info? Everyone is spouting about go-ahead, you're all good, but not giving the man the whole truth. I do so and I hear whining about non-existent laws. Seems like most of you are not really trying to help the guy, but, instead, uping your own post counts.
Bottom line: An official gov't document (ATF 5320.1) says "shall notify, in writing, of any change". |
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Posted: 1/17/2018 3:41:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can anyone cite the law or any literature on this? Or is this an opinion because no one has been prosecuted. If there's no requirement to notify then there is no requirement. Law in this country work by telling you what you can't do, not by telling you what you can do. |
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Posted: 1/17/2018 3:46:16 PM EDT
[#20]
How are you not getting this.
He's not swapping uppers, he's permanently changing the firearm from the description in Item 4c & e Permanent means it's impossible to go back to the prior configuration, and in the AR world, absent welding something to the lower, nothing is permanent. |
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Posted: 1/17/2018 4:31:07 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:How are you not getting it? Barring WELDING an upper to his stamped lower, no change he makes to it is permanent. He can always get another identical upper and slap[ that on if he so chooses.
Permanent means it's impossible to go back to the prior configuration, and in the AR world, absent welding something to the lower, nothing is permanent. If I had an SBR, w/ a collapsible/adjustable stock, I'd measure OAL with the stock extended (27 CFR 479.11). If I collapse the stock, no, it's not a change because I could readily return it to it's prior configuration. However, if I were to remove the stock and replace it with one that made that the OAL longer, how would that be a permanent change? Oh, I forgot, I didn't weld it. Really?
What about an SBR'd Rem700 being converted from a 14" 5.56 to an 8" 300Blk? You wouldn't need to weld anything to make the change. Just swap barrels, no bolt head swap needed. Now, if I sold the original barrel, how would that not be construed as intent to permanently change? Because I didn't weld it or because it's not an AR15 type firearm?
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Posted: 1/17/2018 5:11:10 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Now, if I sold the original barrel, how would that not be construed as intent to permanently change? The only one in the whole wide world who MIGHT have any reason to care would be the next transferee who needs to refer to the prior form 4/form 1 to get the details that won't result in an error letter from the ATF. Nobody at the ATF or anywhere else is laying awake worrying about whether the OAL and caliber statistics in the NFRTR are accurate or not. |
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Posted: 1/17/2018 6:08:34 PM EDT
[#23]
I’m building a 9mm upper, my concern was the caliber change. It say 5.56 on it now, and I will being doing a drop in 9mm block, plus the paper work says 14.5” and we have a few asshat cops around here, who from pure ignorance cause one all sorts of grief. I’m not even sure if I want to pin the FH on the 14.5 as it’s a Block 2 M4 clone, and I have another SBR lower built as a Block 1 clone.
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Posted: 1/17/2018 7:08:03 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where do you ppl come up w/ some of this sh*t? Welding, really? If I had an SBR, w/ a collapsible/adjustable stock, I'd measure OAL with the stock extended (27 CFR 479.11). If I collapse the stock, no, it's not a change because I could readily return it to it's prior configuration. However, if I were to remove the stock and replace it with one that made that the OAL longer, how would that be a permanent change? Oh, I forgot, I didn't weld it. Really?
What about an SBR'd Rem700 being converted from a 14" 5.56 to an 8" 300Blk? You wouldn't need to weld anything to make the change. Just swap barrels, no bolt head swap needed. Now, if I sold the original barrel, how would that not be construed as intent to permanently change? Because I didn't weld it or because it's not an AR15 type firearm? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where do you ppl come up w/ some of this sh*t? Welding, really? If I had an SBR, w/ a collapsible/adjustable stock, I'd measure OAL with the stock extended (27 CFR 479.11). If I collapse the stock, no, it's not a change because I could readily return it to it's prior configuration. However, if I were to remove the stock and replace it with one that made that the OAL longer, how would that be a permanent change? Oh, I forgot, I didn't weld it. Really?
What about an SBR'd Rem700 being converted from a 14" 5.56 to an 8" 300Blk? You wouldn't need to weld anything to make the change. Just swap barrels, no bolt head swap needed. Now, if I sold the original barrel, how would that not be construed as intent to permanently change? Because I didn't weld it or because it's not an AR15 type firearm? Permanent: lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely I suppose you also think that changing your underwear is a permanent change to your body? ETA, you seem to forget we're talking about ARs here, by design modular rifles. |
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Posted: 1/17/2018 7:17:47 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’m building a 9mm upper, my concern was the caliber change. It say 5.56 on it now, and I will being doing a drop in 9mm block, plus the paper work says 14.5” and we have a few asshat cops around here, who from pure ignorance cause one all sorts of grief. I’m not even sure if I want to pin the FH on the 14.5 as it’s a Block 2 M4 clone, and I have another SBR lower built as a Block 1 clone. I wouldn’t bother as you can revert it back to original configuration even though it’s not required. They ask you, so...... |
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Posted: 1/17/2018 8:01:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
how would that not be construed as intent to permanently change? |
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Posted: 1/17/2018 8:24:24 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You’re fine, if you feel the need notify the ATF go ahead. I wouldn’t bother as you can revert it back to original configuration even though it’s not required. They ask you, so...... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I’m building a 9mm upper, my concern was the caliber change. It say 5.56 on it now, and I will being doing a drop in 9mm block, plus the paper work says 14.5” and we have a few asshat cops around here, who from pure ignorance cause one all sorts of grief. I’m not even sure if I want to pin the FH on the 14.5 as it’s a Block 2 M4 clone, and I have another SBR lower built as a Block 1 clone. I wouldn’t bother as you can revert it back to original configuration even though it’s not required. They ask you, so...... |
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Posted: 1/17/2018 9:02:15 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The less they know and the less I have to deal with them the better. My concern was Barney Fife, now I have none. Thanks all! |
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Posted: 1/17/2018 10:40:29 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even if you send a letter to the ATF advising them of your update they aren't going to send a new form 1 or 4 back to you. You might receive a brief acknowledgement letter a few months later. None of that is going to fix a cop who is stuck on ignorant. |
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Posted: 1/19/2018 12:05:18 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’m building a 9mm upper, my concern was the caliber change. It say 5.56 on it now, and I will being doing a drop in 9mm block, plus the paper work says 14.5” and we have a few asshat cops around here, who from pure ignorance cause one all sorts of grief. I’m not even sure if I want to pin the FH on the 14.5 as it’s a Block 2 M4 clone, and I have another SBR lower built as a Block 1 clone. You have multiple legal uses for the upper so possession in and of itself wouldn't be illegal. As to the legalities, well it's been explained, it's perfectly legal to do. ATF asks that they be notified, but there is nothing in the laws that require you to do so or for them to be able to punish you for not doing so. Either way, you don't get a new form with the current info. |
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Posted: 1/19/2018 12:27:32 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You wouldn't even need to pin the FH on it as long as you didn't use the upper with a title1 rifle lower. You have multiple legal uses for the upper so possession in and of itself wouldn't be illegal. As to the legalities, well it's been explained, it's perfectly legal to do. ATF asks that they be notified, but there is nothing in the laws that require you to do so or for them to be able to punish you for not doing so. Either way, you don't get a new form with the current info. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I’m building a 9mm upper, my concern was the caliber change. It say 5.56 on it now, and I will being doing a drop in 9mm block, plus the paper work says 14.5” and we have a few asshat cops around here, who from pure ignorance cause one all sorts of grief. I’m not even sure if I want to pin the FH on the 14.5 as it’s a Block 2 M4 clone, and I have another SBR lower built as a Block 1 clone. You have multiple legal uses for the upper so possession in and of itself wouldn't be illegal. As to the legalities, well it's been explained, it's perfectly legal to do. ATF asks that they be notified, but there is nothing in the laws that require you to do so or for them to be able to punish you for not doing so. Either way, you don't get a new form with the current info. 
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Posted: 1/20/2018 7:02:57 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How are you not getting this. He's not swapping uppers, he's permanently changing the firearm from the description in Item 4c & e.
----- Understood, however: I never said there was a law/regulation or that the ATF could come after you. The question was referring to the process by which one undergoes when making a permanent change to an SBR, on a 5320.1. As you stated, there might be an issue in the future with the firearm's description not matching that of the registry. So, why wouldn't you want the ATF/NFA to have the latest info? Everyone is spouting about go-ahead, you're all good, but not giving the man the whole truth. I do so and I hear whining about non-existent laws. Seems like most of you are not really trying to help the guy, but, instead, uping your own post counts.
Bottom line: An official gov't document (ATF 5320.1) says "shall notify, in writing, of any change". The only time I would be compelled to write a BATFE notification would be something like a cutting a HK94 clone down to a "K" variant, where a change would obviously require gunsmithing, and I am obviously not intending to change it back. YMMV The real bottom line is: If you are concerned about it, feel free to send the BATFE a notice of the change on your AR15, but there is no legal requirement to do so. |
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