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Posted: 2/1/2021 12:49:36 PM EDT
[#1]
Person A should take his cash to his gun store and have them order the boom stick for him and complete the necessary paperwork with them.
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Posted: 2/1/2021 12:55:39 PM EDT
[#2]
Well. That makes sense. Thanks for the reply!
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Posted: 2/1/2021 1:01:46 PM EDT
[#3]
Sometimes if you call the gunshop and talk to them beforehand they'll OK things like this. Just showing up and wanting to make that transfer is not going to go well. The transfer is what really matters but if anything seems weird to the FFL they have the right to refuse to perform the transfer.
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Posted: 2/1/2021 1:05:40 PM EDT
[#4]
The first question is are you the actual buyer . Going by that yes but the dealer doing the transfer will only transfer to who the receipt says to . That looks like a straw purchase and prohibited .
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Posted: 2/1/2021 1:07:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Who ultimately takes possession of this gun? If person A I think all is well. It doesn't matter who pays for it, but who competes the FFL transaction.
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Posted: 2/1/2021 1:14:48 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who ultimately takes possession of this gun? If person A I think all is well. It doesn't matter who pays for it, but who competes the FFL transaction. If it's a gift yes but going by was said above it isnt . |
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Posted: 2/1/2021 2:06:01 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Person A should take his cash to his gun store and have them order the boom stick for him and complete the necessary paperwork with them. This. |
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Posted: 2/1/2021 2:20:49 PM EDT
[#8]
The actual buyer completes the form.
Why is this so hard for people to understand? Whoever actually pays the money for the gun puts his or her name on the 4473. I could hand a stack of $100 bills through a line of people all the way up to the clerk and it wouldn't matter. I would have to come to the front of the line and fill out the paperwork as I am the actual buyer. So in this case since the guy with the credit card (B) got payed back for the purchase by (A) then (A) fills out the paperwork. |
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Posted: 2/1/2021 2:26:57 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The actual buyer completes the form. Why is this so hard for people to understand? Whoever actually pays the money for the gun puts his or her name on the 4473. I could hand a stack of $100 bills through a line of people all the way up to the clerk and it wouldn't matter. I would have to come to the front of the line and fill out the paperwork as I am the actual buyer. So in this case since the guy with the credit card (B) got payed back for the purchase by (A) then (A) fills out the paperwork. That's how I understand the law. Apparently not everyone (including ffls) are on the same page. Thanks for the response!!! |
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Posted: 2/1/2021 3:21:00 PM EDT
[#10]
It is not a straw purchase, since the guy is the actual buyer, but that doesn't mean the FFL will want to do the transfer. They're under no obligation to sell/ transfer you anything, and if they feel the sale is suspicious they can just refuse it. If both people were in the store and explained it (and it's legal for both to get it), they should be okay with it, but it's up to them and the risk they see in it.
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Posted: 2/1/2021 4:30:09 PM EDT
[#11]
I've been told it's kosher for 3 of us to chip in on a gun for a friend (gift) in CA, have him do the paperwork. Ffl was familiar with two of us, and of course we're all legal. Said it would of course be easier to just have us give him the money for it though, which we did.
Cabela's wasn't too happy with my wife after she mentioned the rifle was going to be a gift for me. I told them to call in the check on both of us, I don't care. I ended up doing the paperwork, but they let her pay. As noted above, they have the right to deny the sale, but they also know when you're doing something shady. Your old lady or friend buying you a gun isn't a straw purchase. The big catch to it all, is that all parties are legal, and as long as the ffl has no reason to believe otherwise, they can proceed. |
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Posted: 2/1/2021 5:19:34 PM EDT
[#12]
Is it really a Straw Purchase if both parties can legally own a firearm?
I think the intent of the law is to keep people from purchasing guns for those that cannot legally own a firearm. But ATF being who they are, maybe you still get loved tenderly? |
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Posted: 2/1/2021 5:52:41 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is it really a Straw Purchase if both parties can legally own a firearm? I think the intent of the law is to keep people from purchasing guns for those that cannot legally own a firearm. But ATF being who they are, maybe you still get loved tenderly? To answer your question yes absolutely. The Supreme Court says so too. Abramski vs. U.S. |
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Posted: 2/1/2021 5:56:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been told it's kosher for 3 of us to chip in on a gun for a friend (gift) in CA, have him do the paperwork. Ffl was familiar with two of us, and of course we're all legal. Said it would of course be easier to just have us give him the money for it though, which we did. Cabela's wasn't too happy with my wife after she mentioned the rifle was going to be a gift for me. I told them to call in the check on both of us, I don't care. I ended up doing the paperwork, but they let her pay. This is specifically addressed on the instructions on the 4473 form. Your wife was the one who should have filled out the form. Bona fide gifts are perfectly ok to buy and give away. The gift giver fills out the form. It's actually improper for the gift recipient to fill out the form as you falsely state you are the "Actual Buyer" of the firearm. As noted above, they have the right to deny the sale, but they also know when you're doing something shady. Your old lady or friend buying you a gun isn't a straw purchase. The big catch to it all, is that all parties are legal, and as long as the ffl has no reason to believe otherwise, they can proceed. |
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Posted: 2/1/2021 10:04:42 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'll have to take your word for it. To digress some, at this point, they have so many pieces of paper with my name on them, they know where to find me. Any more I couldn't care less about anything but the serial number on the receipt. Just like that time at cabelas... I didn't give a single fuck which of us signed for it, the transaction is legal, with no ill intent. If we were criminals, there's far more effective ways to acquire firearms with less suspicion. Maybe their staff would have thought differently of it had it not been a slightly collectible sporter instead of a scary black gun. Doesn't it actually say "transferee or buyer"? |
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Posted: 2/2/2021 12:07:32 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryThanks for the reply. That case is a bit different, as the person while filled out the paperwork was not the final recipient. My scenario is different in that the final possessor is in fact the one filling out the transfer paperwork. It's certainly illegal for a person to buy, and fill out the ATF paperwork for a gun they never intend to keep. However, my question is can a person order and pay for a firearm, and allow someone who is legally able to own the firearm, to go to the FFL and fill out the appropriate paperwork for legal possession? |
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Posted: 2/2/2021 12:52:46 PM EDT
[#17]
The issue is who makes the rules and if the person doing the transfer is following them .
Looking at a receipt with a guys name on he is the buyer . You can tell any story you want but God forbid something happens and a trace is done . If the buyer and guy picking up the gun is different you have issues and better be prepared to prove what happened . Saying a guy on AR15.com said it's legal might not be any help. |
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Posted: 2/2/2021 1:14:28 PM EDT
[#18]
https://www.alexkincaid.com/understanding-the-straw-purchase-doctrine/
The story of the cop getting his uncle a gun is always a great example SCOTUS case on it http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/12-1493_k5g1.pdf |
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Posted: 2/2/2021 1:15:17 PM EDT
[#19]
The payor and the “buyer” can be different people. As long as the person filling out the 4473 is planning to take possession. Excluding gifts of course.
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Posted: 2/2/2021 3:11:50 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who ultimately takes possession of this gun? If person A I think all is well. It doesn't matter who pays for it, but who competes the FFL transaction. That’s not exactly true. ATF has sent out FFL newsletters indicating they frown on “brokering” gun deals without an FFL even if the gun is transferred FFL to FFL and eventually to a 4473. In OP’s hypothetical what-if, it probably won’t be a problem if the transferring FFL is OK with it. However, the FFL I used to work for would not have done it. The name of the “buyer” according to the sending FFL had to match the name of the “buyer” on the 4473. DISCLAIMER: I am not an FFL (just worked for one once) and I am not a Lawyer. I honestly don’t care who buys or possesses a gun as long as they are not committing a violent crime with it. |
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Posted: 2/2/2021 3:14:24 PM EDT
[#21]
its bullshit all around
2 Individuals who aren't prohibited persons work out a deal. -Individual B wants a certain glock, but its out of stock everywhere or over priced. -Individual A buys a blue label glock. -Individual A sells blue label glock to Individual B. -Individual A gets charged with straw purchase even though Individual B is not a prohibited person. It's horse shit, and it happens. IIRC it happened in California and they proceeded to break if off in individual A's ass and get the ATF involved. |
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Posted: 2/2/2021 5:13:27 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: its bullshit all around 2 Individuals who aren't prohibited persons work out a deal. -Individual B wants a certain glock, but its out of stock everywhere or over priced. -Individual A buys a blue label glock. -Individual A sells blue label glock to Individual B. -Individual A gets charged with straw purchase even though Individual B is not a prohibited person. It's horse shit, and it happens. IIRC it happened in California and they proceeded to break if off in individual A's ass and get the ATF involved. That's kind of my thought. Nevermind the fact that if it was a long gun, in my state, they could meet in a parking lot for the sale. |
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Posted: 2/2/2021 6:41:37 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's kind of my thought. Nevermind the fact that if it was a long gun, in my state, they could meet in a parking lot for the sale. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: its bullshit all around 2 Individuals who aren't prohibited persons work out a deal. -Individual B wants a certain glock, but its out of stock everywhere or over priced. -Individual A buys a blue label glock. -Individual A sells blue label glock to Individual B. -Individual A gets charged with straw purchase even though Individual B is not a prohibited person. It's horse shit, and it happens. IIRC it happened in California and they proceeded to break if off in individual A's ass and get the ATF involved. That's kind of my thought. Nevermind the fact that if it was a long gun, in my state, they could meet in a parking lot for the sale. Left Cold https://www.npr.org/2014/06/16/322650543/supreme-court-rules-against-straw-gun-purchases#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20Supreme%20Court%20delivered,buying%20a%20gun%20for%20another. In this case, Bruce Abramski Jr. offered to buy a Glock 19 handgun in Virginia for his uncle in Pennsylvania because Abramski thought he could get a law enforcement discount on the gun. Abramski had previously been a policeman but had been fired from the Roanoke, Va., police department for alleged theft. At the gun dealership, Abramski filled out the federal forms, stating that he was the actual buyer of the gun. He even signed a separate form certifying his understanding that giving a false answer to that question is itself a federal crime. After he was cleared by the federal database, Abramski gave the gun to his uncle, deposited the uncle's $400 check, and gave him a receipt. Police later found the receipt after searching Abramski's home in connection with another crime. He was sentenced to five years of probation for lying on the federal form by representing himself as the actual buyer. He appealed to the Supreme Court, arguing that his answer on the form was "not material to the lawfulness of the sale" because his uncle could have bought the gun legally on his own. On Monday the high court rejected that argument by a 5-to-4 vote. Writing for the majority, Justice Elena Kagan said that Abramski's reading would completely gut the twin purposes of the law — to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and others who should not have them, and to assist law enforcement authorities in investigating serious crimes. |
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Posted: 2/2/2021 6:57:43 PM EDT
[#24]
But Abramski filled out the form, then gave it to his uncle. Would it be different if Abramski paid for the gun but his uncle filled out the ATF paperwork???
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Posted: 2/2/2021 10:32:25 PM EDT
[#25]
The problem was, as stated in that article, the uncle paid him cash prior to him taking procession of the firearm. He could have bought it, and then sold it later to the uncle, and been fine. He would not have lied, therefore, on the 4473.
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Posted: 2/3/2021 12:23:02 AM EDT
[#26]
Just curious, couldn’t you arrange with the seller prior to purchase for them to create a purchase ticket for person A but let person B pay for item.
I know sometimes when making purchase online they have separate buyer and payer information areas. When you get to the credit card information area it would ask for actual name on on credit card along with credit card information. When I pay our electric bill online the bill is in my wife’s maiden name but since I’m the payer and the name on the checking account is mine I put in my information. They don’t seem to mind. |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 2:38:45 PM EDT
[#27]
If the person paying and the person filling out the paperwork being different is classified as a "straw purchase", then I've made several. Once a year, my LGS has a "12 months no interest" sale financed through Synchrony.
Synchrony pays the LGS, I pay Synchrony, and I fill out the paperwork and take the gun home. Is this different legally than the OP's scenario? |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 8:27:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is it really a Straw Purchase if both parties can legally own a firearm? I think the intent of the law is to keep people from purchasing guns for those that cannot legally own a firearm. But ATF being who they are, maybe you still get loved tenderly? When I used to work at a dealer, we've have people trying to buy a gun for their buddy to avoid a 5 day wait. If you have a Concealed License, no wait, without, 5 days. So both would have the legal ability to have the gun, but straw purchasing it to avoid the state mandated wait. There was a lady that wanted to buy a gun as a gift for her niece, but another dealer told them now. The lady had a CWL, but the niece had to wait, so it was pretty obvious the lady wasn't trying to straw purchase, but was trying to follow the rules, but the dealer said no to cover his own ass. |
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Posted: 2/6/2021 12:48:23 AM EDT
[#29]
For transfers, if you're the actual buyer/transferee, your name and address/info needs to be reflected on the invoice as well as on the 4473.
I don't make any exceptions. Covering my ass so I stay in business priority #1. |
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Posted: 2/6/2021 1:29:20 AM EDT
[#30]
I have bought lowers for a friend before multiple timed I paid for the lower had it transferred to an FFL and he signed for it and took possession of it. The wife has paid with her CC to buy me a pistol that I intended to own. Not a straw purchase unless you buy it, sign for it, answer the questions you intend to take ownership and then give it to your friend with intent to get around him having the background check.
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Posted: 2/6/2021 3:14:39 PM EDT
[#31]
Oh boy. IBTL.
OP just tell dude A to marry dude B and they can probably avoid the straw purchase charge. |
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Posted: 2/7/2021 11:23:17 AM EDT
[#32]
I used to buy firearms for my staff online as gifts and have them go and pick them up filling out the 4473. LGS was happy for a bit then the ATF through a fit calling it a straw purchase. Agent said I had to fill out 4473 and then hand them said firearm.
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Posted: 2/7/2021 4:51:23 PM EDT
[#33]
So, It seems like it's more important that the person handing out the payment, match the person filling out the 4473, than anything else. Irrelevant of anything that happens after the purchase.
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Posted: 2/8/2021 12:12:08 PM EDT
[#34]
I have a gunbroker account. A buddy doesn’t and asked me to bid on his Uzi (norinco) carbine.
We won the auction and they sent it to the FFL. The FFL was in the loop from the first bid. We both have handgun licenses and showed them before it arrived and at the transfer. The actual purchaser the other guy not me did the FFL paperwork. Not a straw man in any way. |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 9:12:59 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who ultimately takes possession of this gun? If person A I think all is well. It doesn't matter who pays for it, but who competes the FFL transaction. Quote HistoryQuoted: Who ultimately takes possession of this gun? If person A I think all is well. It doesn't matter who pays for it, but who competes the FFL transaction. Quoted: It is not a straw purchase, since the guy is the actual buyer, but that doesn't mean the FFL will want to do the transfer. They're under no obligation to sell/ transfer you anything, and if they feel the sale is suspicious they can just refuse it. If both people were in the store and explained it (and it's legal for both to get it), they should be okay with it, but it's up to them and the risk they see in it. This. If I was the FFL, it would have to be somebody I personally know and trust. I did this with my son for his first purchased "pistol" pickup from our FFL dealer. I purchased it online while in Afghanistan because he didn't have a credit card, told my FFL dealer my son was going to pick it up. No issues, and he paid me back in cash when I got home. ROCK6 |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 9:44:23 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is it really a Straw Purchase if both parties can legally own a firearm? I think the intent of the law is to keep people from purchasing guns for those that cannot legally own a firearm. But ATF being who they are, maybe you still get loved tenderly? To answer your question yes absolutely. The Supreme Court says so too. Abramski vs. U.S. It's not infringing if the supreme court says so. |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 10:07:44 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The actual buyer completes the form. Why is this so hard for people to understand? Whoever actually pays the money for the gun puts his or her name on the 4473. I could hand a stack of $100 bills through a line of people all the way up to the clerk and it wouldn't matter. I would have to come to the front of the line and fill out the paperwork as I am the actual buyer. So in this case since the guy with the credit card (B) got payed back for the purchase by (A) then (A) fills out the paperwork. That's not what happened when I bought my daughter her first gun for her birthday several years ago. Larry's Huntsville AL. She shot a couple guns (Glock 19, Springfield, couple others) in their indoor range; she decided on the Springfield. We went to the counter, told the guy what we wanted to do and he was all like DGAS; which gun? was all he cared about. She filled out the paperwork, I provided the debit card. No fuss, no muss. |
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