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Posted: 4/25/2024 10:39:29 PM EDT
Hey guys. I am in the market for a trapdoor carbine and I know nothing about them. What is a fair price to pay? What should I look for or avoid? Anything else I need to know?
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3-7-77
Proud Member of the Leather Head Mafia “In my opinion, the M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised” - George S. Patton |
[Last Edit: ASUsax]
[#1]
They're all over the map, and I don't know enough to really know.
But I'd like to find out... and here are pictures of my '66 long rifle. Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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[#2]
Reportedly, in the carbines, the recoil was so bad that a reduced load was developed for them, 55 grains of blackpowder and the 405 grain bullet, instead of 70 grains and the 500 grain bullet.
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[Last Edit: HurstXJ]
[#3]
Lots of "Carbines" out there that are cut down rifles.
Watch out for shortened stocks and barrels and pay particular attention to the barrel crown and the way the front sight is mounted. Cutdown barrels with the sights reinstalled almost never look proper when compared to Armory work. |
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[#4]
Is this for your service rifle display? How accurate does it need to be?
Same with krags. I've recently seen a bunch of cut down ones for $500 |
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"If you cant do something smart, do something right"
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[#5]
Originally Posted By 03RN: Is this for your service rifle display? How accurate does it need to be? Same with krags. I've recently seen a bunch of cut down ones for $500 View Quote Yes, it is for my display. I would like it to shoot, accuracy doesn't have great but as long as I can hit a target at a reasonable distance I would be happy. |
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3-7-77
Proud Member of the Leather Head Mafia “In my opinion, the M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised” - George S. Patton |
[Last Edit: ACDer]
[#6]
Attached File
Get the poyer and reisch book, learn the models and features and whats correct, then go looking. As far as prices, so-called Custer serial number range guns go for high money. I think the 1873s tend to go higher then the later models. |
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[#7]
Thanks and I will look into those books.
I am mainly looking for one for my us collection. Something period correct and not chopped up or sporterized. |
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3-7-77
Proud Member of the Leather Head Mafia “In my opinion, the M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised” - George S. Patton |
[#8]
As pointed out above, cut down rifles are often passed off as carbines. Also, commercial guns assembled from parts-so called Bannerman guns are out there as well.
Sights were "upgraded" throughout the years so you can have an early gun with a later sight that is still Authentic. The Poyer book does a good job explaining original features and later upgrades. |
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[#9]
Originally Posted By ACDer: As pointed out above, cut down rifles are often passed off as carbines. Also, commercial guns assembled from parts-so called Bannerman guns are out there as well. Sights were "upgraded" throughout the years so you can have an early gun with a later sight that is still Authentic. The Poyer book does a good job explaining original features and later upgrades. View Quote The bannermans or cutdowns are what concern me. |
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3-7-77
Proud Member of the Leather Head Mafia “In my opinion, the M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised” - George S. Patton |
[#10]
What does composite trapdoor mean?
https://www.proxibid.com/Model-1884-Springfield-Trapdoor-Carbine/lotInformation/84201383#topoflot |
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3-7-77
Proud Member of the Leather Head Mafia “In my opinion, the M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised” - George S. Patton |
[#11]
"Composite" = auction code for "we know it's a parts gun."
Trapdoor carbines can be tricky. Keys (and this is NOT comprehensive): 1. You MUST. MUST. MUST calibrate your eyes to recognize the proper contour of the nose of the carbine stock in front of the barrel band. Almost no fakers can get it right. 2. You must also be able to eyeball the proper appearance of the muzzle/crown, and the appropriate relationship/appearance of the front sight to the muzzle. Both rifles and carbines had the same width at the muzzle; because the barrels tapered, if a rifle barrel was cut down by 10-ish inches to the 22 inch length of the carbine, it will be wider than appropriate. Then, the front sight will have to have been added and that's also hard for bubba to get right. 3. Swivels on the trigger guard are always wrong. Swivels on the barrel band are wrong with one exception - stacking swivels were present in some of the earliest ("Custer range") carbines. 4. Nearby carbine hits in the SRS are useful. 5. Know which years had no or few carbines produced. https://www.armscollectors.com/trapdoor/production.html 6. Probably need to get some idea of the sights and their upgrades as well. 7. Prices highly variable. I paid $3K for my Custer era carbine, $1350 for my "upgrades of 1890" carbine. Best references IMHO are Franca's books and the good folks at the armscollectors trapdoor forum. |
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Res ad triarios rediit.
“Believe me, nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won.” - Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington |
[#12]
Thanks.
This is going to be a steep learning curve! |
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3-7-77
Proud Member of the Leather Head Mafia “In my opinion, the M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised” - George S. Patton |
[#13]
You are right to be concerned regarding the bannerman/commercial carbines. Many of those guns were made on rejected/worn beyond service parts, and like was said before, you need to know what parts go with what date ranges. I always found a quick way to determine if a carbine or rifle has ever been taken apart or was repaired before is to check the woodwork around the lock plate. It's almost impossible to take out the lock plate assembly without damaging the wood, so if the wood around the lock plate is damaged in any way, it likely is a parts gun, or has been serviced heavily in it's 150 year plus career.
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[Last Edit: Polupharmakos]
[#14]
Despite the lack of pictures this one does demonstrate quite a few of the very wrong features when a rifle is cut down, and is worth seeing to calibrate your eyes:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1051162386 In no particular order: Muzzle crown is very wrong Front sight is some sort of strange ramp, totally wrong Sling swivel hole on the front of the trigger guard "R" marked rifle rear sight Incorrect slotted rear sight screws Nose of stock fore-end is the wrong shape No saddle ring bar Those are just the visible defects in the 6 photos provided. All of that in addition to likely refinishing (certainly no case color left on the outside of the block) and the carving described on the stock. More pics would likely reveal more problems. Run far, run fast if you're a collector. I wouldn't be a buyer at any price but starting bid is probably $300-450 too high for a shooter. |
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Res ad triarios rediit.
“Believe me, nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won.” - Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington |
[#15]
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3-7-77
Proud Member of the Leather Head Mafia “In my opinion, the M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised” - George S. Patton |
[Last Edit: Polupharmakos]
[#16]
Might be a good shooter but again got significant replacement parts as far as the collector is concerned.
The key to understanding the trapdoors (really most US military guns) is understanding first how they would have come out of the armory, and then how they got upgraded. The general rule of thumb is that the receiver should be contemporaneous with or older than the rest of the parts. There are a couple of interesting exceptions but I don't think this carbine fits into those exceptions. For this carbine, the receiver dates to 1886. First off, we check the production data I linked earlier and find that 6000 carbines were made that year. Check the SRS and it is in a range of '84 carbines. So far, so good. This is probably originally a legit carbine receiver. The problems for the purist collector begin with the stock. The stock is of older vintage than the receiver and the armory would not have replaced the original stock with the older. Likewise by 1886 the Buffington sight was well into service. The carbine would not have been produced with the old buckhorn sight, nor would the older sight have been placed on it by the military. In the 8th photo, you can also see the sight is affixed by at least one slotted screw, which itself would be incorrect for the 1879 sight. I'm on my phone so I can't confirm the correct "C" markings on the rear sight. Also, from what I can see the front sight and barrel proportions look ok - but there aren't good detail photos. Correcting the carbine would require finding at least the carbine Buffington rear sight (pricey) and either a correct 1886 cartouched stock (probably unobtanium) or a replacement unmarked stock (very hard, very pricey). Again, this search will be driven by your wants/needs as a collector or shooter. |
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Res ad triarios rediit.
“Believe me, nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won.” - Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington |
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