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Someone needs to release a modern bullpup (Page 1 of 2)
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Posted: 6/23/2025 12:01:54 PM EDT
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My shooting journey is relatively new but it seems most folks are stuck in the past. The crowd that im surrounded with seems to be hi-sped considering they're doing everything completely different from shooting style to running all sorts of gizmos and weird optic add ons. Back to the point. I only know two bullpups that checks all the boxes of of bring the bullpup design into modern times and they're practically DOA on the civilian market since they're fighting for big daddy USSOCOM contracts Black Rain and True Velocity.  Now what would make a bullpup modern? Well to me it comes down with two simple additions, required designs. 1. Ambi bolt controls and mag release for both trigger fingers. Doesnt need to be explained. You can train all you want but with a rifle that has this, you can make a reload in less than a second. Thats a second or two faster than any bullpup on the market today. 2. Collapsible butt stock. 99% of folks will not understand this but for all my heads up shooter you will know the struggle. Thats it and bullpups would be relevant again. Maybe a bit QOL improvements like a ambi rear charging handle or rear placed and a longer picatinny rail towards the stock. Sling attachments behind the tang/beavertail to mimic a endplate sling mount, perferably something for a u-loop qd. Desert Tech was this close, this damn close. Even after trying out in the NGSW they decided not to be ambit bolt controls for your trigger fingers. What yall take on this. |
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No, they don't. Ambi controls are, at best, nice but unnecessary on ARs; they're not going to "make bullpups relevant again" because nothing you propose addresses the significant drawbacks inherent to the design. ETA: lol, didn't realize I was in the Bullpup forum ETA: wait, why do we have a bullpup forum? |
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1. AR's don't have finger tip bolt controls. You have to break your front grip to get to it. 2. Most AR's aren't ambi controls, some are but most aren't. It is only really useful for wrong handed people, the work around is shoot right handed. 3. Collapsible butt stocks would be nice, as long as the mechanism doesn't increase the LoP on the shortest settings. 4. The MDR reload speed is as fast or faster than traditional AR reloads. Which make sense, the MDR reload removes a full action (bolt release) as when you seat the mag you hit the bolt release in the same action. MDR reload speed and here is a timed AR reload and here is another from Lucas Botkin. |
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Originally Posted By Feuerhand: No, they don't. Ambi controls are, at best, nice but unnecessary on ARs; they're not going to "make bullpups relevant again" because nothing you propose addresses the significant drawbacks inherent to the design. ETA: lol, didn't realize I was in the Bullpup forum ETA: wait, why do we have a bullpup forum? Because Bullpups are awesome. FYI, most of the deficiencies of bull-pups from the 80's have been worked out over the last decade. This includes Trigger, Weight, Ergonomics, and price. There is a reason that Garand Thumb likes the WLVRN and HOP & Brass facts like the Keltech RDB. |
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Originally Posted By Stillnothere: Weirdly enough the RDB is closest to what would be ideal. Put the controls of the X95 on it and the opening to the chamber from an F2000 and I think you'd alleviate a lot of the issues people have with the design The new desert tech stuff seems good the X95 in my experience is excellent |
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Attached File This is a kit for an AR, and I wouldn’t take it to war, but it’s pretty fun as a range toy. |
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Originally Posted By WJP556: The new desert tech stuff seems good the X95 in my experience is excellent This. IMHO the only downsides to the X95 are the lack of adjustable gas for suppressor use (moot for me, I don't use suppressors) and the weight (could they lower the weight while still retaining the X95's excellent reliability/durability?). |
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I pretty much don't agree with anything OP says. well being Ambi I suppose. Magazine reload speed is a big way overrated game-focus item, IMHO. But a "Modern" bullpup needs to be light, reliable, modular, and reasonably accurate. The most modern current ones that get close are RDB and MDRX, but not really - you have to really mess with and run your RDB to get it field hardship broken in. And accuracy issues. and MDRx has serious weight issues. Even with all that, thr bullpup to get right now? RDB. |
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Originally Posted By Armed_Scientist: RDB with a free floated barrel and durability upgrades would be close to a perfect rifle. You can't free float a piston gun.. There is a guy on KTOG who did try a free floated handgaurd, only tried it to see if it improved the accuracy..Spoiler..it had no affect. As for durability..meh..upgrade the buttstock to a haga defence and grab the Raptor handgaurd (Rhino looks cooler but was more weak) from LuckyIrishman...boom Durability improved |
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Originally Posted By KorneoDahGreat: My shooting journey is relatively new but it seems most folks are stuck in the past. The crowd that im surrounded with seems to be hi-sped considering they're doing everything completely different from shooting style to running all sorts of gizmos and weird optic add ons. ... I only know two bullpups that checks all the boxes of of bring the bullpup design into modern times and they're practically DOA on the civilian market since they're fighting for big daddy USSOCOM contracts Black Rain and True Velocity. https://media.sketchfab.com/models/60a7350e36e84582ae3a1de9461ec893/thumbnails/23716eaee73b4a82a762cbb822093a51/82c7a54bed3943899db43e135a8cc40e.jpeg *snip" As you said.. DOA...and only one of those has been seen to actually work. The Blackrain bullpup was always just Vaporware |
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I'm still waiting to see if the MBAR project is finished and ever comes to market as it does give me some hope. It's fully ambidextrous with easy access to the chamber, uses AR-10 and AR-15 barrels and bolts, can be converted to run both of those appropriate mag types and the designer also has designed straight insertion magwells for AKM and 74 pattern mags, and the test rifles hover around 6lbs with the .308 test rifle with an 18" match barrel is about 6.5lbs. I'm doubting it makes it to market just due to general pessimism, and even if it does, I'd be surprised if it doesn't see a bit of a weight increase. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: I pretty much don't agree with anything OP says. well being Ambi I suppose. Magazine reload speed is a big way overrated game-focus item, IMHO. But a "Modern" bullpup needs to be light, reliable, modular, and reasonably accurate. The most modern current ones that get close are RDB and MDRX, but not really - you have to really mess with and run your RDB to get it field hardship broken in. And accuracy issues. and MDRx has serious weight issues. Even with all that, thr bullpup to get right now? RDB. In pistols, mag change speed is probably a gamerism. We'll find out if anyone buys the new KelTec 5.7. In infantry rifles, mag change ergonomics probably matter. Both the French and the Brits have abandoned their bullpups. |
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The Beretta/True Velocity RM277 had the best control setup I've ever seen. This Rifle Fires Plastic Ammo; The US Army Almost Adopted it. If I could pick the ideal bullpup, it would be that, but with the RDB action in the back. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: In pistols, mag change speed is probably a gamerism. We'll find out if anyone buys the new KelTec 5.7. In infantry rifles, mag change ergonomics probably matter. Both the French and the Brits have abandoned their bullpups. Originally Posted By backbencher: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: I pretty much don't agree with anything OP says. well being Ambi I suppose. Magazine reload speed is a big way overrated game-focus item, IMHO. But a "Modern" bullpup needs to be light, reliable, modular, and reasonably accurate. The most modern current ones that get close are RDB and MDRX, but not really - you have to really mess with and run your RDB to get it field hardship broken in. And accuracy issues. and MDRx has serious weight issues. Even with all that, thr bullpup to get right now? RDB. In pistols, mag change speed is probably a gamerism. We'll find out if anyone buys the new KelTec 5.7. In infantry rifles, mag change ergonomics probably matter. Both the French and the Brits have abandoned their bullpups. True enough- but there are lots of other reasons why they left bullpup. Biggest being the Brit one was a massive M1 Garand weight unrliable craptastic POS. and the French, well. French. But yes, Bullpup isn't for every line troop necessarily - though numbers countries do field them. IMHO they are best suited for RMF, special, and secondary issue. Which also IMHO is why they need to be light, which RDB and only RDB (&P90) get right (all IMHO). As to reload speed, it's not like bullpups are being reloaded one round at a time. The time to reload a bullpup is all but indistinguishable on a practical level by anyone who actually knows how to run one, and IMHO all but irrelevant short of full auto military usage - for a civi and encounter where 30 rounds of rifle ammo is expended one shot at a time , 1/4 second time savings to #1 ain't going to be what makes the difference. With the trade off a fast light gun with 16+inches of power ballistics? I'll make that trade all day long. Amd then only gun that really gives you that handy handling and weight advantage as a bullpup, is the RDB. All the rest just fit in a tank better, but offers very little handling advantage and are even heavier than a full sized 20" M16A1; much less an M4. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: I pretty much don't agree with anything OP says. well being Ambi I suppose. Magazine reload speed is a big way overrated game-focus item, IMHO. But a "Modern" bullpup needs to be light, reliable, modular, and reasonably accurate. The most modern current ones that get close are RDB and MDRX, but not really - you have to really mess with and run your RDB to get it field hardship broken in. And accuracy issues. and MDRx has serious weight issues. Even with all that, thr bullpup to get right now? RDB. WLVRN exists and it is supposedly half a pound lighter than an Aug. That appears to be as light or lighter than an HK 416 which puts it in the right weight category for Piston guns. |
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Originally Posted By FrozenIceman: 1. AR's don't have finger tip bolt controls. You have to break your front grip to get to it. 2. Most AR's aren't ambi controls, some are but most aren't. It is only really useful for wrong handed people, the work around is shoot right handed. 3. Collapsible butt stocks would be nice, as long as the mechanism doesn't increase the LoP on the shortest settings. 4. The MDR reload speed is as fast or faster than traditional AR reloads. Which make sense, the MDR reload removes a full action (bolt release) as when you seat the mag you hit the bolt release in the same action. MDR reload speed and here is a timed AR reload and here is another from Lucas Botkin. Wrt #2, a standard AR is one of the single most lefty friendly rifles on the planet. As a left handed shooter, the only ambi controls worth having is an ambi safety, and maybe an ambi charging handle. #4, ??? Unless you've never relaoded an AR before, or have the worlds smallest hands, seating an AR mag and dropping the bolt can be done in one motion, right or left handed. Either use your thumb when shooting righty, or your index finger when shooting lefty. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: True enough- but there are lots of other reasons why they left bullpup. Biggest being the Brit one was a massive M1 Garand weight unrliable craptastic POS. and the French, well. French. But yes, Bullpup isn't for every line troop necessarily - though numbers countries do field them. IMHO they are best suited for RMF, special, and secondary issue. Which also IMHO is why they need to be light, which RDB and only RDB (&P90) get right (all IMHO). As to reload speed, it's not like bullpups are being reloaded one round at a time. The time to reload a bullpup is all but indistinguishable on a practical level by anyone who actually knows how to run one, and IMHO all but irrelevant short of full auto military usage - for a civi and encounter where 30 rounds of rifle ammo is expended one shot at a time , 1/4 second time savings to #1 ain't going to be what makes the difference. With the trade off a fast light gun with 16+inches of power ballistics? I'll make that trade all day long. Amd then only gun that really gives you that handy handling and weight advantage as a bullpup, is the RDB. All the rest just fit in a tank better, but offers very little handling advantage and are even heavier than a full sized 20" M16A1; much less an M4. If people want light, they'd get an AR, where it's super easy to build a 5lb rifle while still sticking with parts and companies that have excellent reputations. Most people buy bullpups because they are cool and exotic. Hell thats why i bought my AUG. It's why a hellion is on the list. Ballistics makes sense if you're a military in the 80's, but how many people have found themselves in a situation where their 10.3 ar wasn't getting the job done with m193? I'm sure more than a few, but i don't think they were civilians, or had the option of MK262, MK318, M855A1, Gold dot, TBBC, etc |
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Originally Posted By Jm11513: Wrt #2, a standard AR is one of the single most lefty friendly rifles on the planet. As a left handed shooter, the only ambi controls worth having is an ambi safety, and maybe an ambi charging handle. #4, ??? Unless you've never relaoded an AR before, or have the worlds smallest hands, seating an AR mag and dropping the bolt can be done in one motion, right or left handed. Either use your thumb when shooting righty, or your index finger when shooting lefty. Sorry, ARs suck balls for left handed users in stock form. Ambi selector and charging handle should be mandatory. Although the better fix is just something that doesn’t use the rear of receiver T handle garbage setup anyway. Mag changes can be fast as a left handed user, but true ambi mirrored controls would be faster still. |
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Originally Posted By bishopm14: Sorry, ARs suck balls for left handed users in stock form. Ambi selector and charging handle should be mandatory. Although the better fix is just something that doesn’t use the rear of receiver T handle garbage setup anyway. Mag changes can be fast as a left handed user, but true ambi mirrored controls would be faster still. When used properly, the standard charging handle is ambi, provided you have at least 2 fingers No, ambi controls aren't faster. In fact they often introduce more problems. More snag hazzards, adding extra junk that gets in the way of proper manipulation. But when you compact everything into a bullpup, yes true ambi controls are needed, but anyone who has actually spent any amount of time on an AR knows you don't need a PDQ or bad lever, or an ambi mag release. |
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Originally Posted By KorneoDahGreat: My shooting journey is relatively new Your questions are those of someone new to firearms. Nothing will make a bullpup more relevant than a well designed traditional rifle. And at present the contemporary AR15 is the one to beat. |
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Originally Posted By FrozenIceman: WLVRN exists and it is supposedly half a pound lighter than an Aug. That appears to be as light or lighter than an HK 416 which puts it in the right weight category for Piston guns. The WLVRN actually runs? I thought they were garbage just like the MDR series before it. |
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Originally Posted By SpyHawk: The Beretta/True Velocity RM277 had the best control setup I've ever seen.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IDrmo_1-IgIf I could pick the ideal bullpup, it would be that, but with the RDB action in the back. It also would have prevented a lot of the issues associated with the current M7 that related to the cartridge's pressure and subsequent increased wear on the barrel/chamber. |
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Originally Posted By bishopm14: Sorry, ARs suck balls for left handed users in stock form. Ambi selector and charging handle should be mandatory. Although the better fix is just something that doesn’t use the rear of receiver T handle garbage setup anyway. Mag changes can be fast as a left handed user, but true ambi mirrored controls would be faster still. Originally Posted By bishopm14: Originally Posted By Jm11513: Wrt #2, a standard AR is one of the single most lefty friendly rifles on the planet. As a left handed shooter, the only ambi controls worth having is an ambi safety, and maybe an ambi charging handle. #4, ??? Unless you've never relaoded an AR before, or have the worlds smallest hands, seating an AR mag and dropping the bolt can be done in one motion, right or left handed. Either use your thumb when shooting righty, or your index finger when shooting lefty. Sorry, ARs suck balls for left handed users in stock form. Ambi selector and charging handle should be mandatory. Although the better fix is just something that doesn’t use the rear of receiver T handle garbage setup anyway. Mag changes can be fast as a left handed user, but true ambi mirrored controls would be faster still. Mag changes on a standard AR are as fast or faster than the majority of bullpups still. The exceptions would be the X95 and Desert Tech guns. |
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Originally Posted By Jm11513: If people want light, they'd get an AR, where it's super easy to build a 5lb rifle while still sticking with parts and companies that have excellent reputations. Most people buy bullpups because they are cool and exotic. Hell thats why i bought my AUG. It's why a hellion is on the list. Ballistics makes sense if you're a military in the 80's, but how many people have found themselves in a situation where their 10.3 ar wasn't getting the job done with m193? I'm sure more than a few, but i don't think they were civilians, or had the option of MK262, MK318, M855A1, Gold dot, TBBC, etc SBR bullpup is very compact and very handy. I have a SBR X95 with a 13" barrel and it is way easier to maneuver around in tight spaces compared to a 11.5 AR or other conventional SBR rifles. |
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The Desert Tech WLVRN is probably the best option on the market right now for a modern bullpup, sans getting one that has issues. Any of the typical "copy paste" complaints about bullpups has been addressed on this gun outside of those unable to learn new things. Finger tip bolt controls is not necessary, and releasing the bolt on the WLVRN (or Tavor rifles) is about as fast as you can get. Locking the bolt back, is just like MP5 Style, so easy and intuitive. Adjustable stock is meh on bullpups. Usually they have a longer LOP so getting something adjustable is just going to make the lop even longer. Never found myself needing to play with buttstock lengths after getting a setting I like, even in awkward shooting positions. Imho this is some hold over to the AR having an adjustable stock and is a check box people use to justify to hate bullpups. X95 is probably a close second, not having a few things the WLVRN has, but has a better track record. Tavor 7 is a good option if you must have 308, and don't like the Desert tech offerings and are ok with the bulkier and heavier gun. Other bullpups I used to have (AUG, Hellion, RDB, FS2000) are all ok, but have their quirks that keep them from being as good as the Wlvrn or X95. Not to say they aren't good guns, just not as good as the WLVRN or X95 overall. |
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Originally Posted By Jm11513: Wrt #2, a standard AR is one of the single most lefty friendly rifles on the planet. As a left handed shooter, the only ambi controls worth having is an ambi safety, and maybe an ambi charging handle. #4, ??? Unless you've never relaoded an AR before, or have the worlds smallest hands, seating an AR mag and dropping the bolt can be done in one motion, right or left handed. Either use your thumb when shooting righty, or your index finger when shooting lefty. For #2, if it isn't fully Ambi it doesn't count as an Ambi Firearm. For #4, watch the videos. They are visually timed reloads from 3 different people. The AR one is Lucas Botkin who has more training than most people by a lot. With 30 minutes of Training the MDR/x guy (shown on screen) was as fast as Lucas Botkin who has more AR15 training than most people. If you have to reposition your trigger hand (such as if you are shooting left) it slows down your reload and fire. There is less slow down if reload with your left as you move your thumb in a different direction of motion and you can see that here (Mag insert goes up, thumb moves perpendicular to mag insertion motion). Note we are talking less than 0.20 seconds different in timing by the way, it is going to be really hard to see a lot of differences without something like a high speed camera. |
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Originally Posted By Jm11513: If people want light, they'd get an AR, where it's super easy to build a 5lb rifle while still sticking with parts and companies that have excellent reputations. Most people buy bullpups because they are cool and exotic. Hell thats why i bought my AUG. It's why a hellion is on the list. Ballistics makes sense if you're a military in the 80's, but how many people have found themselves in a situation where their 10.3 ar wasn't getting the job done with m193? I'm sure more than a few, but i don't think they were civilians, or had the option of MK262, MK318, M855A1, Gold dot, TBBC, etc FYI barrel length matters, perhaps more so for us than others, perhaps even more than the military for self defense situations. A 16" AR 15 barrel with m193 and m855 can't penetrate level 3 armor at 25 yards. An 18" AR15 barrel can. |
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Originally Posted By JoshNC: The WLVRN actually runs? I thought they were garbage just like the MDR series before it. Yes The MDRx series, I.E. post 2020 production has been pretty good. Lots of little improvements each year that can be applied, but by and large it works great if you don't get an out of box failure. Lots of posts in this forum about people having good and bad experiences with the MDRx and WLVRN for you to review. |
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Originally Posted By JoshNC: Your questions are those of someone new to firearms. Nothing will make a bullpup more relevant than a well designed traditional rifle. And at present the contemporary AR15 is the one to beat. Unless you are facing someone with level 3 armor at 25 yards and have a 16" or shorter barrel AR15. |
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Originally Posted By Jm11513: Or a 16" or shorter bullpup, which includes the vast majority of them Not so sure about that, A lot of them are 20." Having a gun the size of a 16" barrel AR15 with a 20" barrel is popular which is why that was the one rolled out for militaries back in the day (even outside of the compliant states). Same goes for 16" barrel bull-pup vs 12" barrel AR, but that arguement is more about taking longer shots than body armor penetration. Then if you don't care about body armor penetration performance A 12" barrel Bullpup is way way better than a 8" barrel AR in the same size package. I think the issue is that people compare the same size barrel length AR vs a Bullpup which really isn't a good comparison. |
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Originally Posted By FrozenIceman: Not so sure about that, A lot of them are 20." Having a gun the size of a 16" barrel AR15 with a 20" barrel is popular which is why that was the one rolled out for militaries back in the day (even outside of the compliant states). Same goes for 16" barrel bull-pup vs 12" barrel AR, but that arguement is more about taking longer shots than body armor penetration. Then if you don't care about body armor penetration performance A 12" barrel Bullpup is way way better than a 8" barrel AR in the same size package. I think the issue is that people compare the same size barrel length AR vs a Bullpup which really isn't a good comparison. No, most are 16". This is based off what I've seen in spending over 10 years as an RSO, and what other RSO's have told me. While most military bullpups are 18-20" we are not talking about them. The vast majority of AUGs, tavors, and hellions are 16" |
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Originally Posted By Jm11513: No, most are 16". This is based off what I've seen in spending over 10 years as an RSO, and what other RSO's have told me. While most military bullpups are 18-20" we are not talking about them. The vast majority of AUGs, tavors, and hellions are 16" I don't think we can use anecdotal evidence as an indicator of what most are. For example, I can say for a fact if you lived in a compliant State there are near 0 16" bullpups (because it is illegal) so 99+ percent of them are greater than 16" (exceptions being illegal firearms or those that bought a 16" and then pin and welded a 4" barrel extension to it). Remember a certain Compliant State has more firearms than 46 other states. |
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Originally Posted By FrozenIceman: I don't think we can use anecdotal evidence as an indicator of what most are. For example, I can say for a fact if you lived in a compliant State there are near 0 16" bullpups (because it is illegal) so 99+ percent of them are greater than 16" (exceptions being illegal firearms or those that bought a 16" and then pin and welded a 4" barrel extension to it). Remember a certain Compliant State has more firearms than 46 other states. And you are assuming that this certain complaint state has more bullpups why exactly? For those of us who can actually enjoy these firearms as intended, it's pretty clear the majority are 16". Because thats what sells, not because of some stupid government rule |
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Originally Posted By Evintos: Maktes T-AB 1A Bullpup Rifle Maktes Arms T-AB 1A and T-AB 2A: new military rifles, from Armenia Click To View Spoiler https://maktes-admin.s2s.am/images_list/uploaded/image_jNbzb0OjS9_T-AB1ABullpupRifleFDE(6).png https://maktes-admin.s2s.am/images_list/uploaded/image_jlnbohCowJ_T-AB1ABullpupRifleFDE(8).png Looks neat! I like the different mag well options. It will be heavy though sitting at 8+ pounds. |
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Originally Posted By Jm11513: And you are assuming that this certain complaint state has more bullpups why exactly? For those of us who can actually enjoy these firearms as intended, it's pretty clear the majority are 16". Because thats what sells, not because of some stupid government rule Because states with vastly larger populations have more gun owners. But you are right there are probably more factors in compliant states pushing for Bullpups as the Overall Length limit can't include folding or collapsible stocks and/or the higher income of people in blue states. So if all Bullpups in a State that has the 4th largest number of gun owners in the country can only have bullpup barrel lengths above 16," it is going to change the outcome of the results. Especially as there are more of those Compliant States (with huge populations). Again, 16" Bullpups aren't sold in at least 1 compliant States because that will get you into super jail. You may be right that people want shorter guns, the 16" Bullpup is 12" AR sized without an SBR, however if they can't physically have that is a pretty big statistic to compared to the opinion of a few RSO's. A 16" AR seems like a compromise. It isn't good enough for long range work (goes subsonic around 600 yards), it isn't good enough for the most common type of body armor in home defense. On a Square 100 to 300 yard range a 12" AR will do just as well with a different hold over as a 16" barrel though, but it is more paperwork and waiting time for a 12" SBR AR. |
Someone needs to release a modern bullpup (Page 1 of 2)
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