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Someone needs to release a modern bullpup (Page 2 of 2)
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Originally Posted By Evintos: Maktes T-AB 1A Bullpup Rifle Maktes Arms T-AB 1A and T-AB 2A: new military rifles, from Armenia Click To View Spoiler https://maktes-admin.s2s.am/images_list/uploaded/image_jNbzb0OjS9_T-AB1ABullpupRifleFDE(6).png https://maktes-admin.s2s.am/images_list/uploaded/image_jlnbohCowJ_T-AB1ABullpupRifleFDE(8).png That looks like it has a hellion base. The T-AB 1A is to the Hellion what the XF-05 is to the G36 
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Originally Posted By FrozenIceman: Because states with vastly larger populations have more gun owners. But you are right there are probably more factors in compliant states pushing for Bullpups as the Overall Length limit can't include folding or collapsible stocks and/or the higher income of people in blue states. So if all Bullpups in a State that has the 4th largest number of gun owners in the country can only have bullpup barrel lengths above 16," it is going to change the outcome of the results. Especially as there are more of those Compliant States (with huge populations). Again, 16" Bullpups aren't sold in at least 1 compliant States because that will get you into super jail. You may be right that people want shorter guns, the 16" Bullpup is 12" AR sized without an SBR, however if they can't physically have that is a pretty big statistic to compared to the opinion of a few RSO's. A 16" AR seems like a compromise. It isn't good enough for long range work (goes subsonic around 600 yards), it isn't good enough for the most common type of body armor in home defense. On a Square 100 to 300 yard range a 12" AR will do just as well with a different hold over as a 16" barrel though, but it is more paperwork and waiting time for a 12" SBR AR. You're trying to argue about statistics, you shouldn't. There's a few famous sayings about statistics. Your perception is colored by your location and by the fact you're barely able to own the gun in question at all. Meanwhile, we aren’t stuck with 18", we can buy what we want |
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Originally Posted By Jm11513: You're trying to argue about statistics, you shouldn't. There's a few famous sayings about statistics. Your perception is colored by your location and by the fact you're barely able to own the gun in question at all. Meanwhile, we aren’t stuck with 18", we can buy what we want If I can't convince you that a single state with more guns than half the US states combined needs to be considered I don't think we are going to get anywhere unless you organize some kind of giant bullpup audit where everyone pools 100% of all US bullpups, sorted by barrel length for you to personally inspect and count by hand. |
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Originally Posted By FrozenIceman: If I can't convince you that a single state with more guns than half the US states combined needs to be considered I don't think we are going to get anywhere unless you organize some kind of giant bullpup audit where everyone pools 100% of all US bullpups, sorted by barrel length for you to personally inspect and count by hand. "More guns than half the US" allegedly. Stats lie, but if we take your stats at face value, congratulations, you have more guns than half the US. Too bad about the other half. Also, all those guns aren't bullpups. You don't need to do an audit, you just need to spend time in places that can actually pick what they want. Its like someone in Russia saying the most popular car in the world is the lada. |
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Anyway, back on topic. If you want a Mk18 sized package and capability with better range and ballistics, where 2-500+ yard engagements are the full spectrum, and where flatter trajectory (so you can hit) and terminal potency as far as as you can go are a priority, then that means bullpup. With added bonus of 16" muzzle blast. (or 17.2" for the RDB) compared to the cocnusion of a 10.5. Of course, you can run supressed - and undermine the whole point of going short - for a comfort device you can do with 50 cent earplugs, but sure. And if you want it done in the weight class of a MK18 as well, that leaves RDB. The rest are fat pigs, just short fat pigs. With an eye on WLVRN as a maybe. with one added note that for those supressor bros who have to have it -- the RDB is the single best 5.56 supressor host of any class rifle in any configuration - thanks to the sealed reciever (downward eject) and 20+ position gas system |
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Yeah, those 18-20” claims are total bull honky. All of the original preban AUG imports were 20” with some exceptionally rare and highly desirable 16” barrels, true. (With the post-import-ban USR being 20” as well.) The Tavor SAR in its FIRST YEAR sold more rifles than the entire production runs of Steyr AUGs in the US to that point. It was something like 40k guns, with the vast majority being the 16” variant. They’ve maintained a similar distribution with the X95 and T7, the long-barrel Tavors are much less common. Steyr, since resuming their US distribution, has almost exclusively shipped 16” rifles. They’ve done the special edition STG-77 run and a mix of weird barrel combos for PSA but those are very very limited. The Hellion/VHS-2 was available only in 16” for what, 6-8 months, before the 18/20” variants were made available? The FS2000 was an outlier at its weird 17” barrel length but I don’t think it has significant numbers. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant for market share. In the US, the bullpup market primarily leans toward 16” barrels for shortest OAL to have the most compact package. I prefer the longer barrels in everything except the Tavor (which looks stupid that way) but that’s because I’m weird (and like cloning military rifles) but don’t represent the market. Generalizing from your own personal preferences is not a good idea. Yes, the idea of the bullpup retaining the musket-length barrel in the shortest overall package is one of its strengths but in the US commercial market the appeal is the most compact package that avoids NFA registration. |
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Fwiw, the 17" spec isn't as random as it sounds. Its done on the RDB to meet the OAL requirements, while avoiding a goofy long LoP. which is the real reason Hellion has an adjustable stock - so they can be comfortable correct dimensions with a 16", since the full extended length no one actually uses, counts for the legal OAL spec. Which is stupid, if you need length, give me more barrel, not more stock. Again, RDB are the only ones who figured that out. (and a couple others I guess). Which is why PSA attempt is out. They are fixated on taking 16" uppers, and so have 1.5" too long lowers. For yet another too darned heavy Bullpup with too long of a LoP. No. I might change my mind for Grendel, maybe - but now that we have 6.5CM SFAR and 6.5CM WLVRN, Grendel is kinda losing luster for me. Also, my AUG has the rare 18" run, which IMHO is the ideal length for such. So there. It's also mothballed now, as I just run RDB now. and my fat heavy MDRx 6.5CM is abandoned, I just run my 6.5CM SFAR now. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Fwiw, the 17" spec isn't as random as it sounds. Its done on the RDB to meet the OAL requirements, while avoiding a goofy long LoP. which is the real reason Hellion has an adjustable stock - so they can be comfortable correct dimensions with a 16", since the full extended length no one actually uses, counts for the legal OAL spec. Which is stupid, if you need length, give me more barrel, not more stock. Again, RDB are the only ones who figured that out. (and a couple others I guess). Which is why PSA attempt is out. They are fixated on taking 16" uppers, and so have 1.5" too long lowers. For yet another too darned heavy Bullpup with too long of a LoP. No. I might change my mind for Grendel, maybe - but now that we have 6.5CM SFAR and 6.5CM WLVRN, Grendel is kinda losing luster for me. Also, my AUG has the rare 18" run, which IMHO is the ideal length for such. So there. It's also mothballed now, as I just run RDB now. and my fat heavy MDRx 6.5CM is abandoned, I just run my 6.5CM SFAR now. Agreed, 18" looks like it is the perfect length, balance and performance for the 5.56 cartridge. It would be interesting to see if 17" is just enough to penetrate lvl3 as well. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Fwiw, the 17" spec isn't as random as it sounds. Its done on the RDB to meet the OAL requirements, while avoiding a goofy long LoP. which is the real reason Hellion has an adjustable stock - so they can be comfortable correct dimensions with a 16", since the full extended length no one actually uses, counts for the legal OAL spec. Which is stupid, if you need length, give me more barrel, not more stock. Again, RDB are the only ones who figured that out. (and a couple others I guess). Which is why PSA attempt is out. They are fixated on taking 16" uppers, and so have 1.5" too long lowers. For yet another too darned heavy Bullpup with too long of a LoP. No. I might change my mind for Grendel, maybe - but now that we have 6.5CM SFAR and 6.5CM WLVRN, Grendel is kinda losing luster for me. Also, my AUG has the rare 18" run, which IMHO is the ideal length for such. So there. It's also mothballed now, as I just run RDB now. and my fat heavy MDRx 6.5CM is abandoned, I just run my 6.5CM SFAR now. The adjustable stock was not for OAL requirements as it was an original feature on military VHS-2's. Had Springfield not included it, people would bitch even more than they do about the grip and magwell |
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Originally Posted By Jm11513: The adjustable stock was not for OAL requirements as it was an original feature on military VHS-2's. Had Springfield not included it, people would bitch even more than they do about the grip and magwell Originally Posted By Jm11513: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Fwiw, the 17" spec isn't as random as it sounds. Its done on the RDB to meet the OAL requirements, while avoiding a goofy long LoP. which is the real reason Hellion has an adjustable stock - so they can be comfortable correct dimensions with a 16", since the full extended length no one actually uses, counts for the legal OAL spec. Which is stupid, if you need length, give me more barrel, not more stock. Again, RDB are the only ones who figured that out. (and a couple others I guess). Which is why PSA attempt is out. They are fixated on taking 16" uppers, and so have 1.5" too long lowers. For yet another too darned heavy Bullpup with too long of a LoP. No. I might change my mind for Grendel, maybe - but now that we have 6.5CM SFAR and 6.5CM WLVRN, Grendel is kinda losing luster for me. Also, my AUG has the rare 18" run, which IMHO is the ideal length for such. So there. It's also mothballed now, as I just run RDB now. and my fat heavy MDRx 6.5CM is abandoned, I just run my 6.5CM SFAR now. The adjustable stock was not for OAL requirements as it was an original feature on military VHS-2's. Had Springfield not included it, people would bitch even more than they do about the grip and magwell Im glad people like it. I dont. Oh look, another fat heavy overweight 5.56 bullpup. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Im glad people like it. I dont. Oh look, another fat heavy overweight 5.56 bullpup. I don't like it either, but people want what the gun is, not an ar15 competitor, because no matter how light, short and well fit you make it, it's not going to do what an ar15 can. And that's all right, not everything needs to be an ar |
| I have an RDB, an FS2000, an HS Produkt VHS2 (AKA Hellion), an AUG, and a Tavor X95. While I find find the length of pull to be a bit too long on the Hellion, of the bullpup problems to have, that's a minor one, and Hellion is among the very best of the bullpup rifles available, IMO. If I had to pick one for military use, it would be the VHS2. |
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Originally Posted By eodinert: I have an RDB, an FS2000, an HS Produkt VHS2 (AKA Hellion), an AUG, and a Tavor X95. While I find find the length of pull to be a bit too long on the Hellion, of the bullpup problems to have, that's a minor one, and Hellion is among the very best of the bullpup rifles available, IMO. If I had to pick one for military use, it would be the VHS2. I have an RDB,RFB,VHS2/Hellion,AUG, Tavor SAR and All 3 Desert Tech Bullpups. For me..Its a toss up between the VERY affordable RDB and the WLVRN. Ive already gotten rid of the adjustable stock (brings the LOP in line with other bullpups except the Keltecs) on the VHS2 and had a trigger job just to bring it in line with my other bullpups.. The AUG...is my next project..which is gonna cost more money.. |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: I have an RDB,RFB,VHS2/Hellion,AUG, Tavor SAR and All 3 Desert Tech Bullpups. For me..Its a toss up between the VERY affordable RDB and the WLVRN. Ive already gotten rid of the adjustable stock (brings the LOP in line with other bullpups except the Keltecs) on the VHS2 and had a trigger job just to bring it in line with my other bullpups.. The AUG...is my next project..which is gonna cost more money.. Lot more, as in about the same price you find them on sale. Bought my AUG for 1600 and spent probably 1400 in upgrades. |
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Originally Posted By Kwisak: Lot more, as in about the same price you find them on sale. Bought my AUG for 1600 and spent probably 1400 in upgrades. Originally Posted By Kwisak: Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: I have an RDB,RFB,VHS2/Hellion,AUG, Tavor SAR and All 3 Desert Tech Bullpups. For me..Its a toss up between the VERY affordable RDB and the WLVRN. Ive already gotten rid of the adjustable stock (brings the LOP in line with other bullpups except the Keltecs) on the VHS2 and had a trigger job just to bring it in line with my other bullpups.. The AUG...is my next project..which is gonna cost more money.. Lot more, as in about the same price you find them on sale. Bought my AUG for 1600 and spent probably 1400 in upgrades. AUG is great and iconic. IMHO, integrated 3x optic is best AUG. 2020 sear and red springs make for a pretty decent trigger. Be aware: Heavy. (too heavy) jumpy recoil (too much so, for a 5.56) Meh accuracy - its OK loud - the gas vent is close and oversized. Dust cover is a weak point. My AUG occasionally eats mine and jams. Its a good gun, iconic and classic. But I don't really run mine any more. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: AUG is great and iconic. IMHO, integrated 3x optic is best AUG. 2020 sear and red springs make for a pretty decent trigger. Be aware: Heavy. (too heavy) jumpy recoil (too much so, for a 5.56) Meh accuracy - its OK loud - the gas vent is close and oversized. Dust cover is a weak point. My AUG occasionally eats mine and jams. Its a good gun, iconic and classic. But I don't really run mine any more. It's not like those faults are in a vacuum. The AUG is an infantry rifle, not a gun designed for the civilian market. The RDB might have a bunch of pros, but it comes at the cost of being a keltec, and not having direct chamber access |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: AUG is great and iconic. IMHO, integrated 3x optic is best AUG. 2020 sear and red springs make for a pretty decent trigger. Be aware: Heavy. (too heavy) jumpy recoil (too much so, for a 5.56) Meh accuracy - its OK loud - the gas vent is close and oversized. Dust cover is a weak point. My AUG occasionally eats mine and jams. Its a good gun, iconic and classic. But I don't really run mine any more. Agreed. My Aug was very over gassed, but if you play with suppressor plug and that you can make it better (but end up venting more gas on an already loud port pop). Mine was really accurate with a 20" heavy 1/7 barrel, but seems others aren't. I did like the AUG as it felt good in the shoulder, and classic vibes, but modernizing it ends up with a kludge of a gun with numerous quirks I just couldn't get over. Ended up selling it, if I were to buy another one, It would just be a classic style with the integrated optic as a range toy. |
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Originally Posted By eodinert: I have an RDB, an FS2000, an HS Produkt VHS2 (AKA Hellion), an AUG, and a Tavor X95. While I find find the length of pull to be a bit too long on the Hellion, of the bullpup problems to have, that's a minor one, and Hellion is among the very best of the bullpup rifles available, IMO. If I had to pick one for military use, it would be the VHS2. I wasn't crazy about the Hellion I had. Its sorta a bulky/heavy bullpup compared to the Wlvrn or X95 SBR, but the controls and ergos just weren't as good to me as the X95/WLVRN, and in general I feel like the gun was designed by 10 different people that never talked to each other, then they forced all the parts together in the end, giving a gun with just weird looks and quirks. It was reliable, accurate, and that, but I found the Wlvrn a better gun overall and more aesthetically pleasing. RDB embraces the recycled beach plastic feel, and general fit and finish of the parts are what you would expect for a ~$650 rifle, which isn't great. Recoil impulse was long and clunky feeling (given the bolt has to travel so far) and just felt cheap. Take down is odd, and assembling it seemed to fight you and never seemed to get it right the first time. Didn't care for the ergos or just general feel of the gun. |
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Originally Posted By tavorsterling: I wasn't crazy about the Hellion I had. Its sorta a bulky/heavy bullpup compared to the Wlvrn or X95 SBR, but the controls and ergos just weren't as good to me as the X95/WLVRN, and in general I feel like the gun was designed by 10 different people that never talked to each other, then they forced all the parts together in the end, giving a gun with just weird looks and quirks. It was reliable, accurate, and that, but I found the Wlvrn a better gun overall and more aesthetically pleasing. RDB embraces the recycled beach plastic feel, and general fit and finish of the parts are what you would expect for a ~$650 rifle, which isn't great. Recoil impulse was long and clunky feeling (given the bolt has to travel so far) and just felt cheap. Take down is odd, and assembling it seemed to fight you and never seemed to get it right the first time. Didn't care for the ergos or just general feel of the gun. Originally Posted By tavorsterling: Originally Posted By eodinert: I have an RDB, an FS2000, an HS Produkt VHS2 (AKA Hellion), an AUG, and a Tavor X95. While I find find the length of pull to be a bit too long on the Hellion, of the bullpup problems to have, that's a minor one, and Hellion is among the very best of the bullpup rifles available, IMO. If I had to pick one for military use, it would be the VHS2. I wasn't crazy about the Hellion I had. Its sorta a bulky/heavy bullpup compared to the Wlvrn or X95 SBR, but the controls and ergos just weren't as good to me as the X95/WLVRN, and in general I feel like the gun was designed by 10 different people that never talked to each other, then they forced all the parts together in the end, giving a gun with just weird looks and quirks. It was reliable, accurate, and that, but I found the Wlvrn a better gun overall and more aesthetically pleasing. RDB embraces the recycled beach plastic feel, and general fit and finish of the parts are what you would expect for a ~$650 rifle, which isn't great. Recoil impulse was long and clunky feeling (given the bolt has to travel so far) and just felt cheap. Take down is odd, and assembling it seemed to fight you and never seemed to get it right the first time. Didn't care for the ergos or just general feel of the gun. |
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Originally Posted By vectorsc: I didn't care for how my MDR and MDRx's broke in catastrophic game-over ways all the time. So I put up with the flawless operation of the 11 Hellions I have personal experience with at this point. For sure, the reputation DT has isn't great, and I had my share of problems initially with my Wlvrn. Some problems fixed by DT and then I did some improvements as well, and since then I've shot a little over 3000 rounds of 5.56 and 308 without issue. I don't see any long term issues, but it's certainly possible. With out improvements brought on by a military trial and adoption, the longevity will always be a wild card on the WLVRN until it's around long enough and builds a reputation. My fall back bullpup if the WLVRN shits the bed is the X95, of which I have about 7k thru with only a firing pin spring breaking. Hellion and X95 I would consider the top performing military pedigree bullpups, but personally the X95 won me over the Hellion. Wlvrn is better IMHO IF it's right; as it sits now requires some tinkering to get to where it should be. |
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Originally Posted By Jm11513: The RDB might have a bunch of pros, but it comes at the cost of being a keltec, and not having direct chamber access Since this thread really isn't about the RDB, I didn't elaborate, but the RDB, which I otherwise love, is taken off the list because of the lack of chamber access. It's a show stopper. |
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F90-MBR is what I want to get my hands on. I have owned a couple FS-2000s, several AUGs, and a Keltec RDB and all are pretty decent but also have some weaknesses that I think the F90 addresses. If the trigger on the FS-2000 was better, it would have been a strong contender. |
Someone needs to release a modern bullpup (Page 2 of 2)
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