User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 6/20/2022 10:24:58 PM EDT
[#1]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/21/2022 9:09:37 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Well the awaited launch date is close. Has anyone here had a hands on look at this so call "Geheime Optik" during SHOT? https://www.sionyx.com/pages/opsin For the OPSIN asking price you can get a nice analog Gen II tube or maybe a decent Gen III. Hopefully, places like ExpertVoice and Guidefitter, will lower the street price some. The performance certainly looked good though - Nick Chen isn't shy about calling out under-performance, and he was impressed. Digital brings a whole slew of value adds - a ton actually, over Analog. If the SHOT Test Room performance holds up, they are in NL5 and cut the already un-noticable (to me anyway) 30ms Sensor Delay, down to 2-5ms IIRC - the stuff people asked for. That costs money, then add in the awesome (sarcasm) economy. If they didn't go all proprietary on the mount and power, I'd get one to replace the Pro on my HMT set up... alas, have to sit this one out. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/21/2022 12:45:02 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hopefully, places like ExpertVoice and Guidefitter, will lower the street price some. The performance certainly looked good though - Nick Chen isn't shy about calling out under-performance, and he was impressed. Digital brings a whole slew of value adds - a ton actually, over Analog. If the SHOT Test Room performance holds up, they are in NL5 and cut the already un-noticable (to me anyway) 30ms Sensor Delay, down to 2-5ms IIRC - the stuff people asked for. That costs money, then add in the awesome (sarcasm) economy. If they didn't go all proprietary on the mount and power, I'd get one to replace the Pro on my HMT set up... alas, have to sit this one out. Holy shit Mick! Is there anything you don't dabble in to such extremes? 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/21/2022 12:52:54 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holy shit Mick! Is there anything you don't dabble in to such extremes? According to my wife - yardwork 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/21/2022 4:07:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hopefully, places like ExpertVoice and Guidefitter, will lower the street price some. The performance certainly looked good though - Nick Chen isn't shy about calling out under-performance, and he was impressed. Digital brings a whole slew of value adds - a ton actually, over Analog. If the SHOT Test Room performance holds up, they are in NL5 and cut the already un-noticable (to me anyway) 30ms Sensor Delay, down to 2-5ms IIRC - the stuff people asked for. That costs money, then add in the awesome (sarcasm) economy. If they didn't go all proprietary on the mount and power, I'd get one to replace the Pro on my HMT set up... alas, have to sit this one out. I did notice those little proprietary details. No doubt they had people giving advice to keep it as standard as possible where applicable. Mounts, plugs, and batteries shouldn't have been too hard to do . I question the dark room test, it having had 2 small LEDs at the rear to simulate moon lit conditions. Lots of games to played with that without 1st measuring the amount of light across the full spectrum. The amount of visible light may have only been .5% @ 0.001CDP of the full out put with 99.5% split between low ultraviolet and high IR @ 400CDP etc. As much as I hate to think it, this too may be another "almost" got it close to being right but failure to take honest input from end users got in their way. They should have dumped the video and GPS bells and whistles. Keep it simple. Put a video out port to send vid to a phone. I would think the bench mark this thing needs to reach for the cost is along a good Photonis tube at 72res 25SNR not sure how Halo and EBI would be calculated with digital but anything at or below 1.0 I guess would be acceptable as a trade off for the other qualities color brings to the table. The 3rd iteration of this ( probably in about 5 years ) may be the cats whiskers unless someone else beats them to it. Digital image cartridge in an 18mm format that fits in and replaces where an analog tube goes (keep your current housing etc.) That would be the target item people might flock to. Use a multi mini CMOS chips and lens array to gain more amplification then digitally over lay those small multi images to produce a brighter final image. ( say 9 lenses and 9 chips per tube housing) Hoping but not expecting too much image performance over quality analog at the same price. I truly hope I'm wrong because it would be nice to have usable NV that isn't susceptible to damage via lasers, image burn etc. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/21/2022 5:37:40 PM EDT
[#6]
Truly the thing that excites me the most about digital nv is the fact that it will make full fusion much easier and cheaper when/if the digital nv tech gets caught up. Will it be "cheap"? Probably not but it certainly will be more affordable than buying a $1.5-2k nv device then a 3k ecoti copy to clip on if you can even find one.
I would say that within the next five years lots of smart people will begin the process of switching to digital, especially if we get thermal fusion out of the deal. I'd definitely pick one up as long as it isn't prohibitively expensive |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/21/2022 9:25:22 PM EDT
[#7]
Note to everyone - the room at SHOT was lit with IR at 1mW. Equivalent to a reasonable moon - also note the presence of a mirror (this backwashes the incident IR light).
Right now, I'm not convinced this is a significant improvement over the Pro - other than in the sense its a true helmet mounted option with similar FOV to a PVS14. Right now the thermal world is killing it e.g. in the civilian market place, its now possible to get uncooled units with <25mK NETD (or to put it another way double the sensitivity of units from three years ago) and recently 8 micron pixel pitch units became available, offering a very significant improvement in resolution. humanDRI, 8u, 640x, 25mm FL = 1980m, 490m, 250m humanDRI, 12u, 640x, 25mm FL = 1320m, 330m, 160m Keep in mind the SiOnyx Black SiO detector is very good - broad wavelength and high quantum efficiency ~ 85% relative to G3IIT ~ 35%. The big but is, there is no equivalent of a MCP in an Aurora/Pro/OPSIN. There are a number of routes that SiOnyx could take, the most obvious one would be to add a thermal sensor....................then open up the platform for comms/data. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/21/2022 10:04:43 PM EDT
[#8]
I'm not gonna hold my breath with regards to sionyx's full digital approach. I believe they are getting quite close to the limits for their process tech/implementation. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter as things are going to ebaps anyways, which was already proven to be better than 10160's in anvis in low and mid light (in a cross-comparison with aviators in the late 2000's). Not having a MCP is a good thing, as you don't have it adding additional noise and limiting resolution plus digital gives infinite gain assuming dark current/read noise is low enough. The only real benefit of the MCP other than amplification is + the phos screen does a really good job of dynamic range compression.
Also that comparison between the 8um and 12um thermal's isn't fair. As you're getting a narrower FOV with the 8um due to a smaller sensor and same FL. So you'd need to compare the same FOV which would give a similar resolution.. I'm also pretty sure the 8um process node in general has a worse NETD number, so it should give worse overall performance but in smaller packages and at a lower cost. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/21/2022 10:40:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not gonna hold my breath with regards to sionyx's full digital approach. I believe they are getting quite close to the limits for their process tech/implementation. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter as things are going to ebaps anyways, which was already proven to be better than 10160's in anvis in low and mid light (in a cross-comparison with aviators in the late 2000's). Not having a MCP is a good thing, as you don't have it adding additional noise and limiting resolution plus digital gives infinite gain assuming dark current/read noise is low enough. The only real benefit of the MCP other than amplification is + the phos screen does a really good job of dynamic range compression. Also that comparison between the 8um and 12um thermal's isn't fair. As you're getting a narrower FOV with the 8um due to a smaller sensor and same FL. So you'd need to compare the same FOV which would give a similar resolution.. I'm also pretty sure the 8um process node in general has a worse NETD number, so it should give worse overall performance but in smaller packages and at a lower cost. EBAPS I don't think is available to civies ...yet. I think its basically a hybrid type system using the best of both worlds removing the MCP as the CMOS sensitivity makes up for the difference in final image quality. You would think it's cheaper to make and more reliable yet just as effective.    Like putting a Gen 1 tube infront of a SIONYX... sort of . Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this. Here is some really nice digital NV https://www.x20.org/x26-hyper-fidelity-intensified-sensor-hfis/ |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/22/2022 12:04:05 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not gonna hold my breath with regards to sionyx's full digital approach. I believe they are getting quite close to the limits for their process tech/implementation. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter as things are going to ebaps anyways, which was already proven to be better than 10160's in anvis in low and mid light (in a cross-comparison with aviators in the late 2000's). Not having a MCP is a good thing, as you don't have it adding additional noise and limiting resolution plus digital gives infinite gain assuming dark current/read noise is low enough. The only real benefit of the MCP other than amplification is + the phos screen does a really good job of dynamic range compression. Also that comparison between the 8um and 12um thermal's isn't fair. As you're getting a narrower FOV with the 8um due to a smaller sensor and same FL. So you'd need to compare the same FOV which would give a similar resolution.. I'm also pretty sure the 8um process node in general has a worse NETD number, so it should give worse overall performance but in smaller packages and at a lower cost. (1) The point I was making about the MCP was the massive multiplier effect it has for a Gen2/3 device - thats why conventional IIT outperform the SiO Black - even though the QE of the Black is much, much better than gen 2 ~ 20% and Gen 3~ 35% QE. There are many simple ways to improve the performance of the PRO e.g. change the lens from F1.4 to F1 for example - that would significantly improve light transmission. (2) The NETD of the 8 micron pixel units will also continue to improve, there are much higher resolution units than this - down to 3 microns pixel pitch. FOV is dealt with by changing focal length - its a non-issue to dial in the FL you require e.g. 9mm, 18mm, 25mm, 35mm, 50mm so on and so forth, the choices are out there. Pixel pitch is a big issue because it is inherent real resolution. The more pixels on target the greater the DRI ranges. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/22/2022 3:14:03 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: (1) The point I was making about the MCP was the massive multiplier effect it has for a Gen2/3 device - thats why conventional IIT outperform the SiO Black - even though the QE of the Black is much, much better than gen 2 ~ 20% and Gen 3~ 35% QE. There are many simple ways to improve the performance of the PRO e.g. change the lens from F1.4 to F1 for example - that would significantly improve light transmission. (2) The NETD of the 8 micron pixel units will also continue to improve, there are much higher resolution units than this - down to 3 microns pixel pitch. FOV is dealt with by changing focal length - its a non-issue to dial in the FL you require e.g. 9mm, 18mm, 25mm, 35mm, 50mm so on and so forth, the choices are out there. Pixel pitch is a big issue because it is inherent real resolution. The more pixels on target the greater the DRI ranges. 1) I've seen the sionyx pro with a f/0.95 ir coated lens and it made less of a difference than I expected. As I was saying they are getting close to the limits of approach/process tech. The MCP definitely helps allot due to the fact that analog systems are going to be gain limited, but digital systems are noise limited. The reason ebaps gets much better performance than traditional digital systems is due to additional electron yield from high voltage between the PC and sensor. Approaches like SPAD arrays are promising but still have high light excursions causing large amounts of damage when in high gain mode. Along those same lines gen 2/3 cascade systems should result in higher SNR, resolution (assuming proximity focused especially as there's no more MCP to flex), and similar gain to MCP based solutions, but they aren't made due to cost. 2) m aware of how focal lengths effect things. I'm just saying that comparison between a 8/12um system with the same number of pixels and the same focal length isn't really correct due to FOV changes from the smaller size of the 8um sensor. Also 3um pixel pitch seems like it would be below the diffraction limit for LWIR? Also sorry I had forgotten that resistance rather than charge collection is measured with microbolometers as I was thinking along cmos sensor lines regarding netd. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/22/2022 12:39:21 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Note to everyone - the room at SHOT was lit with IR at 1mW. Equivalent to a reasonable moon - also note the presence of a mirror (this backwashes the incident IR light). Right now, I'm not convinced this is a significant improvement over the Pro - other than in the sense its a true helmet mounted option with similar FOV to a PVS14. I wish they set that room up to equivalent of whatever ambient light level NL5 is. As we all know, zero ambient and not even Analog works. I know we've all read books/listened to podcasts, of SOCOM guys in the middle of A-Stan with no moon/stars - saying they couldn't see Jack with their NODs. Do you know what power source, in what size room, would equal NL5? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/22/2022 11:42:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wish they set that room up to equivalent of whatever ambient light level NL5 is. As we all know, zero ambient and not even Analog works. I know we've all read books/listened to podcasts, of SOCOM guys in the middle of A-Stan with no moon/stars - saying they couldn't see Jack with their NODs. Do you know what power source, in what size room, would equal NL5? NL5 is ~ 1 mlux, which is the equivalent to 1 mlumen per square meter (or less). So basically it is dependent on the size of the area you want to "light up". A 0.5mW source will produce ~ 0.05 lumens ~ 25m^2 will be ~ 2 mLux. So a source less than or equal to 0.5mW will produce less than or equal to 2 mlux illuminance over 25m2. Thus a 0.25mW source will produce 1 mLux illuminance over 25m2 (0.025 lumens) and thus be equivalent to NL5 conditions. As a reference a MPLS point puts out 10 lumens max so over 25m^2 the illuminance is 0.4 lux Mountains at nightime are difficult - if you're above the tree line you have nothing but rock and rocks (generally) are poor light reflectors, equally they can be good heat absorbers depending on orientation, hence you can get some relief with thermal. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2022 12:18:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NL5 is ~ 1 mlux, which is the equivalent to 1 mlumen per square meter (or less). So basically it is dependent on the size of the area you want to "light up". A 0.5mW source will produce ~ 0.05 lumens ~ 25m^2 will be ~ 2 mLux. So a source less than or equal to 0.5mW will produce less than or equal to 2 mlux illuminance over 25m2. Thus a 0.25mW source will produce 1 mLux illuminance over 25m2 (0.025 lumens) and thus be equivalent to NL5 conditions. As a reference a MPLS point puts out 10 lumens max so over 25m^2 the illuminance is 0.4 lux Mountains at nightime are difficult - if you're above the tree line you have nothing but rock and rocks (generally) are poor light reflectors, equally they can be good heat absorbers depending on orientation, hence you can get some relief with thermal. I knew you'd know, LOL! |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/24/2022 12:54:48 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I knew you'd know, LOL! LOL it was an interesting question  NL5 is tough e.g. overcast starlight only or in powered-off buildings and a definitive must have capability for professional users.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/16/2022 12:28:24 PM EDT
[#16]
There are a few things I wanted to say about the conversation and the Opsin itself, I'll also refer to some comments made here and split my entire original comment because of a 2000 character limit per post:
I already made a few Reddit posts which you could see here and here . The device seems pretty impressive for digital and I doubt that it would underperform. There are people who actually think that it's going to be just a small upgrade over the Aurora, which is laughable considering the price point. Opsin and Nightwave are the first ones to use SiOnyx's black silicon chips, it's still rumored that the Aurora has a sort-of prototype black silicon chips. However the performance and the price shows that it's unlikely. From what we get to see, the Opsin preformed pretty well in that test room. Although that's in a controlled environment that SiOnyx set-up and real world performance remains to be seen. I would like to also note that some of the wording that SiOnyx uses is just hyping the device which they did exactly to the Aurora. SiOnyx don't like to reveal too much perhaps for their technology not to be copied or stolen, because of that a lot of the information is vague. There were some changes made to the device over time, these are just specifications changes that I know of though. As far as software changes nobody could really tell since they used the same Opsin devices of each event as well as sending other people the same prototype. The new Nightwave product actually shares the same sensor, but has other lower specs. Here are two of the spec sheets: Opsin ¦ Nightwave |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/16/2022 1:43:20 PM EDT
[#17]
The entire American night vision community pretty much labeled the device as 'not worth it' because analog gen 3 devices roughly cost the same amount of money. While this is true on paper, there are many things which disproves this claim. Firstly, for international users this is a great solution. A lot of counties have restrictions for night vision and some don't even allow them at all whether it's importation or purchase/owning such a device. Secondly, the Opsin fills the pure light amplification performance by having other features which are either non-existent on analog devices or require paying additional money for these features (which usually comes with other penalties such as weight or inconvenience). Some of those features are being able to see in color, which helps greatly to identify targets and helps with depth-perception. Recording video which is useful for content creators, law enforcement you name it. GPS and compass, which are useful for navigation. What about not being able to burn the device by exposing it to light? You can use the device at daytime or at more brighter situations. Thirdly, the PVS-14 argument is only relevant if you could find an actual good tube for the MSRP of Opsin. A lot of the time tubes that actually perform well (WP/Unfilmed/Thin-filmed) cost more than 2500$ and for that price you only get the device. Opsin comes with more than just the device, so it's less of a headache and probably more money saved. At the end of the day, even if Opsin is gonna suck, it's still a large step for a better device, more interest in night vision which would eventually lead to more competition which in turn results in price drops or in better technology. If you just need pure performance and don't want to worry about possible latency issues and what not then go with analog.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/16/2022 1:58:03 PM EDT
[#18]
Someone said here that they saw the Aurora Pro with a F0.95 lens, I believe you were talking about a YouTube channel by the name Carpe Nocturnum. He was using a Schneider Xenon 25mm f/0.95 lens, the lens isn't suited for full spectrum uses since it only passes 400-700nm wavelengths according to him. If you would've used a more suitable lens with the same aperture it would look a lot better since it would have better light transmission. It would only be around a stop brighter than the lens that Sionyx uses (0.95 lenses do have a tendency to have some light transmission loss due to extreme lens design). That only means that the image is going to be around double as bright, which isn't a huge performance boost (think like going from 30fps to 15fps on the Aurora, although the image quality is going to be better since it is a more expensive lens). The main performance of the Aurora comes from its highest maximum ISO of 819,200. Double that of the Sony A7S II/III (not as sensitive as these cameras with the IR filter removed, though) and even higher than most other cameras could go, The Sony cameras are considered to be one of the best low-light options when it comes to digital night vision even without the IR filter removed. Although the Canon ME20F-SH is better in low-light at the cost of less resolution, but it's 4-5x more expensive and way less practical. If you want more information about digital night vision I'll suggest checking T. Rex Arms's YouTube channel.
The Opsin is suppose to come out next month, a SiOnyx employee confirmed it's release in August as well as other website listing the item to be available next month and specifically B&H Photo and Video listed the item as being available on the 16th of August. I'll suggest looking out for videos of the Nightwave product if they would be released before the Opsin, because like I mentioned beforehand the sensor is the same one so the performance isn't far from what the Opsin should be. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/16/2022 5:36:03 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Opsin is suppose to come out next month, a SiOnyx employee confirmed it's release in August. @DjAlonDevil Let me know how you do, going through the "hostile" territories and cross border, helmet mounted with one of these Opsin contraptions. Perhaps the Opsin is a nice toy and that will be fine to safely horse around and shoot up fun targets on the property with under strong and variable lighting environments. But until I see the Golani Brigade using it in real action, I will not trust this for serious social purpose use, even though I might be able to make do under certain conditions. Perhaps I will have to look forward to the goggle, hopefully a dual articulating tube version and not a rehash of those Alibaba chicom toy wonders. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2022 1:19:34 PM EDT
[#20]
I'm not military, therefore I will miss the opportunity to blow the brains of some Palestinian while wearing the Opsin
 Aurora and gen 1 devices are a toy, Opsin not so much. It would definitely be useful and I bet that it's going to perform OK with little to no moon, although probably not pure starlight in an extremely rural environment that lacks the air glow from cities or towns. Considering Golani using mostly PVS-14's GP and WP and some personal use dual tubes, they are some of the last guys to get some Opsin. There are more advanced bridges that use more advance and new technologies. Buying a bunch of Opsins is just going to be a waste of money and Opsin is definitely not reliable for most military use. However, just because it's not military graded, does not mean that it's not good to use. Anyway, feel free not to buy the Opsin. Analog boomer 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2022 2:03:48 PM EDT
[#21]
Good lord, this still going on after the Pro being out for 2 years this month? Its very simple: NL4 or better, the Pro will do everything Analog Gen 3 will do. How do I know? Because me, with Pro Binos, and 20 other guys on here with Gen 3, did the same stuff in NL4 conditions at the Southington Hunt Club in Garrettsville, OH. Darker than NL4, it falls on it's face...but NL4 is pretty dark. And depending on where you live, it may never get darker unless you go into thick woods... or a building and choose to not activate Umbrella Lighting, or use your LAM Illuminator for anything.
OPSIN is unknown until it's on the street, but I highly doubt it isn't better than the Pro. I could have made over a $1K selling my two Pro's when I got the BNVD-SGs - I kept them, the capabilities punch above the $750 street price *to me*. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/18/2022 1:57:39 AM EDT
[#22]
@mickdonaldson
SiOnyx are claiming the Opsin will work down to ~1mlux which is roughly where the Pro is e.g moonless starlight in open space (bottom of NL4/top end NL5). It does look like they have improved the optics on the Opsin relative to the Pro e.g F1.3 Vs F1.4 which will increase light transmittance. I would expect to see a small increase in performance over the Pro on this basis alone - like the Pro it will tap out quickly at its limit. Equally, I'm not seeing anything that anyone would regard as a step change. As a device, and like the Aurora Pro, the Opsin may be a good fit for LE Depts. where budget and surveillance capability comes into play. Keep in mind DoD puts its foot on the neck of anything with FOM ~>1000 (or equivalent) and also anything that allows multiuser on screen tracking/realtime data mapping. Good reasons for this as you know. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/18/2022 2:42:54 AM EDT
[#23]
I have a feeling it's true performance isn't going to rival the Aurora pro by much if at all. It if is the same sensor as the Nightwave to me just seeing Sionyx footage, the money would be better spent on a good analog.
I think this is more about form factor. Too bad they couldn't or wouldn't look at people posting about std, battery formats and mounts etc. Dump the GPS, recorder compass, etc. charge $1000 less and maybe .............. The only true performance increase might be with dual sensors ( Binos) feeding twice the optical data ( twice the light ) into the digital screens via processing for viewing, then maybe the image and lag will be workable. If someone has dual Pros and a video mixer they could experiment just to see how much better the image might be using this logic . I'm sure it's not quite that simple as just over laying images. Not my wheel house. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/18/2022 11:09:15 AM EDT
[#24]
You sound like a rep for Sionyx.
Its out in few months ? No real world videos yet ? Kind of concerning. I was going to buy one but I think ill wait. I'm no hater to digital NV, in fact I prefer it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2022 3:33:18 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: EBAPS I don't think is available to civies ...yet. I think its basically a hybrid type system using the best of both worlds removing the MCP as the CMOS sensitivity makes up for the difference in final image quality. You would think it's cheaper to make and more reliable yet just as effective. https://www.asdnews.com/NewsImages/b/58485/58996_O.jpg https://www.auganix.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Intevac-Augmented-Reality-Night-Vision-goggles.jpg https://optics.org/objects/news/thumb/10/7/37/EBAPSSensorL.jpg Like putting a Gen 1 tube infront of a SIONYX... sort of . Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this. Here is some really nice digital NV https://www.x20.org/x26-hyper-fidelity-intensified-sensor-hfis/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm not gonna hold my breath with regards to sionyx's full digital approach. I believe they are getting quite close to the limits for their process tech/implementation. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter as things are going to ebaps anyways, which was already proven to be better than 10160's in anvis in low and mid light (in a cross-comparison with aviators in the late 2000's). Not having a MCP is a good thing, as you don't have it adding additional noise and limiting resolution plus digital gives infinite gain assuming dark current/read noise is low enough. The only real benefit of the MCP other than amplification is + the phos screen does a really good job of dynamic range compression. Also that comparison between the 8um and 12um thermal's isn't fair. As you're getting a narrower FOV with the 8um due to a smaller sensor and same FL. So you'd need to compare the same FOV which would give a similar resolution.. I'm also pretty sure the 8um process node in general has a worse NETD number, so it should give worse overall performance but in smaller packages and at a lower cost. EBAPS I don't think is available to civies ...yet. I think its basically a hybrid type system using the best of both worlds removing the MCP as the CMOS sensitivity makes up for the difference in final image quality. You would think it's cheaper to make and more reliable yet just as effective. https://www.asdnews.com/NewsImages/b/58485/58996_O.jpg https://www.auganix.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Intevac-Augmented-Reality-Night-Vision-goggles.jpg https://optics.org/objects/news/thumb/10/7/37/EBAPSSensorL.jpg Like putting a Gen 1 tube infront of a SIONYX... sort of . Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this. Here is some really nice digital NV https://www.x20.org/x26-hyper-fidelity-intensified-sensor-hfis/ Those look like they still have a delay? |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2022 4:26:24 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @mickdonaldson SiOnyx are claiming the Opsin will work down to ~1mlux which is roughly where the Pro is e.g moonless starlight in open space (bottom of NL4/top end NL5). It does look like they have improved the optics on the Opsin relative to the Pro e.g F1.3 Vs F1.4 which will increase light transmittance. Thanks. Since I can't slap one next to my MH25 - I haven't been keeping up with it. You should buy one on your companies dime, and do those awesome Comparo Montage pics with it People were poo-pooing (as usual) the Pro, from that one Truck video they posted...the Pro turned out to be pretty damn good in the real world, twice as good (from Half Moon to No Moon) as the Black/Classic/Sport. We'll see what's what, eventually. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2022 4:41:32 PM EDT
[#27]
As is out of the box, can the OPSIN clip into a KVC Bridge? Or do we need to modify a Wilcox Flir Breech shoe again and screw it on, like on the older sionyx cams? thanks
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/20/2022 5:32:22 AM EDT
[#28]
Aperture is only a portion of what gives the device it's performance, the new sensor is what actually matters. As far as DoD goes, the Opsin might pass easily because it's pretty much a camera that you can wear on your head. Also the digital night vision technology didn't progress far enough to actually 'pose a threat', so anything that doesn't involve analog would most likely pass anyway.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/20/2022 5:33:35 AM EDT
[#29]
It does have the same sensor as the Nightwave, but everything else could be different. Optics, software etc could and most likely are different than the Nightwave. Looking at sample footage from Nightwave just gives an idea of how the Opsin should look like. Keep in mind that the Aurora ratings are written as such just because of the 7.5 fps mode. They justify the low-light performance just from that. Also, dumping everything you said would most likely not shave off a lot of money from the device. Again, the price is probably mostly justified, and if it's not than the Opsin is going to flop and that's it.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/20/2022 5:34:07 AM EDT
[#30]
A rep for SiOnyx would never say that their new and improved device perform similarly as a previous less impressive device lol
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/20/2022 5:34:46 AM EDT
[#31]
Somebody asked SiOnyx on Instagram a while ago and they didn't really give a straight answer, they only said they had "Wilcox setups" at their booth.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/20/2022 8:13:51 AM EDT
[#32]
The OPSIN Mounting and Power, are 100% proprietary - it is a stand alone setup unless (possibly) you are a 3D Printing wizard.
If it could clip into a Bridge and use USB, I'd buy one...it doesn't. The IG post was in error, he was talking about the Helmet to OPSIN interface, not OPSIN to a Bridge. The Pro is legit NL4 at 30fps - going to 7.5 won't get you into NL5, though it does resolve a bit more - GroundhogOz posted captures from each frame rate in the main thread. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/20/2022 1:57:55 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The OPSIN Mounting and Power, are 100% proprietary - it is a stand alone setup unless (possibly) you are a 3D Printing wizard. If it could clip into a Bridge and use USB, I'd buy one...it doesn't. The IG post was in error, he was talking about the Helmet to OPSIN interface, not OPSIN to a Bridge. The Pro is legit NL4 at 30fps - going to 7.5 won't get you into NL5, though it does resolve a bit more - GroundhogOz posted captures from each frame rate in the main thread. Thanks for reply. Looks like I'll miss out. I'm saddened to hear this disappointing news. I thought finally Sionyx learned something to make their gear Wilcox G24 mil spec. I guess Sionyx don't care about my customer base who have supported them from the very beginning and enjoy their products. I was hoping to get an Opsin to "abuse" and not have any worries about damaging my more expensive BNVD tubes under constant variable lighting conditions. This is the most common threat scenario, so I can't really employ Gen 3 BNVDs in this environment effectively with my beginner skill level. So you would recommend I keep my Pro. It fits my KVC bridge just OK and I can utilize it with weapon mounted lasers. I was just going to sell the Pro in favor of getting an Opsin, to helmet mount to my KVC bridge. Too bad.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/20/2022 11:43:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for reply. Looks like I'll miss out. I'm saddened to hear this disappointing news. Only they know what the market research showed, and/or what the production differences/cost was, between their system and a Shoe/Dovetail setup. Maybe next time, or maybe the aftermarket will step up. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/21/2022 12:27:42 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Only they know what the market research showed, and/or what the production differences/cost was, between their system and a Shoe/Dovetail setup. Maybe next time, or maybe the aftermarket will step up. It's their company, let them do what they want, I do not take them seriously anymore after this. Correct me if I am wrong, but the Opsin supposedly was marketed to LE and security professions, who I venture to guess, almost all use a G24 variation Wilcox shoe dovetail clip in mount. That is why I am surprised and disappointed; they are a fail on this one and no USB or standard mil spec dual compatible AA-123 battery packs. Shame on them. They also don't care about LE and Security. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/21/2022 1:38:02 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's their company, let them do what they want, I do not take them seriously anymore after this. Correct me if I am wrong, but the Opsin supposedly was marketed to LE and security professions, who I venture to guess, almost all use a G24 variation Wilcox shoe dovetail clip in mount. That is why I am surprised and disappointed; they are a fail on this one and no USB or standard mil spec dual compatible AA-123 battery packs. Shame on them. They also don't care about LE and Security. ETA why wont it work with a g24 like it is here at shot show? ETA2 I assume you are talking about using it with the wilcox bridge?  |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/21/2022 10:26:03 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: if you already are geared up with a g24 then you probably already have gen3 and wont be buying a opsin. at the very best it would be a side step move and likely a step down. ETA why wont it work with a g24 like it is here at shot show? ETA2 I assume you are talking about using it with the wilcox bridge? https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/IMG_3684-660x495.jpg Yes, I have Gen 3 L3 WP BNVD, G24 mount and a KVC Bridge I also use the G24 + KVC to also mount my Pro. Thanks for your post, we're getting a lot of conflicting info. Honestly, I'm afraid to damage my Gen 3 L3 tubes, that's why I wanted an Opsin too, if it is better than my Pro I'll sell the Pro. Right now, I can use the Pro during day, see and test my lasers even during the day, under different lighting conditions and see more of spectrum without any fear of damage, so it is nice to have this capability as a beginner. The reason I wanted an Opsin is mentioned in my earlier post above, snippet below: "I was hoping to get an Opsin to "abuse" and not have any worries about damaging my more expensive BNVD tubes under constant variable lighting conditions. This is the most common threat scenario, so I can't really employ Gen 3 BNVDs in this environment effectively with my beginner skill level." |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/21/2022 3:01:38 PM EDT
[#38]
I'm not sure what's the exact purpose of the bridge you want to do with Opsin, but as far as bridging two Opsins together would most likely be possible with the M.A.C.H.O.S. mount for the Aurora. Just now found a post from Lions Gear Solutions on IG and they mentioned it would work with it. That's what I'm planning to do.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/21/2022 7:39:38 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not sure what's the exact purpose of the bridge you want to do with Opsin, but as far as bridging two Opsins together would most likely be possible with the M.A.C.H.O.S. mount for the Aurora. Just now found a post from Lions Gear Solutions on IG and they mentioned it would work with it. That's what I'm planning to do. Sorry for not being clear. Before when I didn't have any info, I thought the Opsin would mount the same way as my Sionyx Pros, i.e., I need to affix a Wilcox shoe to the Opsin, so it will click into my KVC Bridge, then that clicks into my G24 and helmet. Really basic stuff here. I wanted to mount Opsin to KVC Bridge so I can also mount a thermal for dual setup. Just to keep it quality. I really prefer to use mil spec quality fittings on everything, like the KVC Bridge, G24, etc.,, even if it is a cheap camera. I wouldn't like to use the Lion's if I didn't have to because it looks cheap, airsoft quality and doesn't appear as low profile as my KVC G24 setup. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/21/2022 8:16:16 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry for not being clear. Before when I didn't have any info, I thought the Opsin would mount the same way as my Sionyx Pros, i.e., I need to affix a Wilcox shoe to the Opsin, so it will click into my KVC Bridge, then that clicks into my G24 and helmet. Really basic stuff here. I wanted to mount Opsin to KVC Bridge so I can also mount a thermal for dual setup. Just to keep it quality. I really prefer to use mil spec quality fittings on everything, like the KVC Bridge, G24, etc.,, even if it is a cheap camera. I wouldn't like to use the Lion's if I didn't have to because it looks cheap, airsoft quality and doesn't appear as low profile as my KVC G24 setup. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/21/2022 10:36:34 PM EDT
[#41]
According to the spec sheet, the Opsin uses the Sionyx XQE1350 silicon which is also used in the Nightwave as mentioned.
The Aurora Pro uses the XQE1310 which is their older second gen silicon. If they can really hit the 3ms latency and 300 microlux sensitivity targets that DjAlonDevil posted, it's going to be an interesting device for sure, price point aside. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/22/2022 10:21:15 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: According to the spec sheet, the Opsin uses the Sionyx XQE1350 silicon which is also used in the Nightwave as mentioned. The Aurora Pro uses the XQE1310 which is their older second gen silicon. If they can really hit the 3ms latency and 300 microlux sensitivity targets that DjAlonDevil posted, it's going to be an interesting device for sure, price point aside. Nice catch on the specs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/22/2022 10:26:05 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: back when I started I had dual sionyx green on lions bridge and while not super light or high speed there was no durability concerns. What version? His new 2nd Gen one, looks awesome (I think GroundhogOz has one). I had the 1st Gen one...the new one looks leaps and bounds better with 6061 and 4.4oz. Now I see above ^ that he may be able to make OPSIN work.... damn, didn't need to spend more FJB dollars |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/22/2022 1:52:29 PM EDT
[#44]
That's exactly why I think that the performance of the Opsin must be way ahead of the Aurora Pro, it wouldn't make sense if it didn't.
But, I'll guess we'll have to see next month when Nightwave will start to ship and the Opsin would be revealed. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/22/2022 2:23:50 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's exactly why I think that the performance of the Opsin must be way ahead of the Aurora Pro, it wouldn't make sense if it didn't. But, I'll guess we'll have to see next month when Nightwave will start to ship and the Opsin would be revealed. I wish the Nightwave (and Opsin) had a zero-able targeting reticle or some sort of Bluetooth sighting system. I'd have a lot of fun being an APC or PT Boat gunner. https://www.sionyx.com/products/nightwave |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/22/2022 5:48:27 PM EDT
[#46]
If Sionyx are serious about selling this for $2500, I sure hope Sionyx picks up their app game. Their iOS app is currently rated 2.3 stars, and their Android app 2.2 stars. No updates for almost a year.
Lots of people complaining that the wifi is basically unusable on the Aurora. If the digital features of the Opsin don't work 100% reliably, then there is really no point to buying digital night vision over analog. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/22/2022 5:55:08 PM EDT
[#47]
I don't get why a digital monocular would be cantilevered off the helmet.
Unlike optics, digital's benefit is that the camera/battery/guts/etc can be readily separated from the view finder and be located in other more optimal locations. sigh. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/22/2022 6:09:49 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't get why a digital monocular would be cantilevered off the helmet. Unlike optics, digital's benefit is that the camera/battery/guts/etc can be readily separated from the view finder and be located in other more optimal locations. sigh. Offsets, measurement, etc. I don't like to be feeling around as if I were blind even though you can see in the dark. If helmet mounted, Bump your set up, then have to stop because your helmet isn't on in the exact way for you to have correct coordination. Works for vehicles, but not really for you walking around and using your hands to do stuff. Even PVS7s are strange. Linear tubes work better IMO. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/22/2022 7:05:33 PM EDT
[#49]
This again seems more about emulating form factors ( PVS14) than being really innovative as a new helmet mounted system. A little increase in performance but with the tactical cool form over the Aurora. You get to pay over twice as much now for 25% performance increase and the looks.
 The OPSIN expectations are high. Too bad so many manufactures set themselves up for a fall promoting an item to be "almost as good" when in reality if it's not in a controlled setting the performance falls way short of what it was promoted as. Too bad no one sneaked in a Gen 2 PVS14 for a side by side at SHOT. True NL5, std. ambient night time spectrum and intensity without a mirror in the room, having vanta black felt walls and ceiling running at 60Hz refresh rate should be the standard test. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/22/2022 7:13:20 PM EDT
[#50]
why is the opsin $1000 more than the night wave? if this had come in at 1600-1800 they could have hit a sweet spot in the industry and honestly IMO that's about all its worth.
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
