I got several rolls from the tractor supply company.

The guy I saw on youtube had half misfires, he cut out one cap and put it in one primer.  

I was wondering if maybe two caps per primer would be better, or if dissolving it in something (acetone? alcohol? water?) and putting a drop in each cap and fitting the anvil before it dries would be better?

Any method to waterproof each cap?  I was thinking a dusting of spray paint after it dries?

Attached File

While there are several techniques to fabricate primers from readily available materials, results may be inconsistent, unreliable or even dangerous.

Using toy caps as a base for priming is nothing new and had been done to make muzzle loading caps for years.  

What exactly is the availability of toy caps these days?  The toy cap supply would quickly dry up would dry up pretty quickly if any appreciable number of people were dong this.

Also, if you do plan to experiment with this, clean the gun as if you are using corrosive ammunition.

I was also wondering if they were corrosive.

I found 5 packages on clearance in Tractor Supply Company. $2.50/each

IDK where they normally sell them in TSC, I've only ever seen them on clearance after Christmas.

IF I can find a way to make them more reliable... I was surprised how poorly they performed in that guy's youtube test.

That's why I'm trying to figure out how to make them more reliable. I figured the best way was to either double them up or dissolve them and put a drop in each primer, seat the anvil and let it dry?

No personal experience here but the couple of things I've read about this technique has you placing a cap in the primer cup, then putting a couple of flakes of fast burning powder (Bullseye) before adding another cap.

Again, I have no experience with this so if you want to experiment further you're on your own and I assume no responsibility.

Honestly, aside from the desire just to satisfy curiosity, seems like a whole lot of squeezing but not a lot of juice.
If it came to this I think I would try to find a flintlock and live out the rest of my days with it.

There is a thread about this at Castboolits that might help answer some questions.

Im buying a bow before I do this

Im envisioning scenes from October Sky when they're making rocket fuel. Lol

Right?

I opened this thread fully expecting the OP to get mocked and ridiculed...but this has seriously been done?  Hey, I'm all for creative solutions to modern problems.

I am thinking  a flintlock  might be on the horizon.

@CherokeeRose

The mixture used in toy caps is called Armstrong’s Mixture.  If you want to read a little about it, start at p.49 in Herbert Ellern’s book Military and Civilian Pyrotechnics.  Formulas are on p.353.  The pdf is linked below and you can find hard copies on Amazon but it has gotten a little pricey:

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media/pdf/4651.pdf

IMHO only, I would recommend against using toy caps for reliability reasons.  The caps are very moisture sensitive and inactivated easily.  

If you are reloading primers, I would go with potassium chlorate, lead thiocyanate and antimony sulfide mixtures, being careful to experiment with tiny amounts, which is really all you need anyway.

If you really want to explore this further This is probably your best choice.

Still slow and tedious as well as corrosive (just like the paper caps) but seems to be a little more legit for the purpose.

No experience with this product either but I have to admit that I have thought about trying it if only to satisfy my own curiosity

Impact explosives are scary.

You start messing around with more than a few primers worth and you can easily blow your fingers off.



I have zero desire to start counting the fingers I haven't got.

I made some gun cotton one time. Cool stuff, sulfuric acid and nitric acid mixed together, soak some cotton in it, then clean it with lots and lots of distilled water.

I had a crazy idea to weave some cloth out of it, make it into some cloths.

I have enough chemistry training to know that it's not safe to fuck with impact explosives though. The slightest impurity will make it even more sensitive.

Or make it blow up randomly on it's own.

Even gun cotton is dangerous if you don't get rid of all the reactants.

I was hoping those snap caps could work well, I wonder if desiccant would help?

ah yeah, reloading for 22lr stuff

Thanks for the link and the reminder.

I read up on that during the 22lr shortage about 5 years ago.

I never tried it because

1. I still have 22 ammo from the 3rd grade, along with my lunch money.

2. I figured out how to use 22 blanks for nail guns, along with 22 caliber pellets for air rifles. The trick is to push the pellet in about 1.5 to 2 inches down the barrel, so the blank doesn't wreck the skirt. I took a small nail and bent it so I could get repeatable results.

May be time to order some priming compound kits.

That's worth taking to a printing press and having a book made. Even at $0.10/page printed at the library, it's only $45.

There is another web site around with publication(s) by W. Marshall Thompson PhD.  I down loaded a copy of his "Homemade Primer Course", April 29, 2014" but forgot to copy the URL.  

Under the heading of, "Is It Legal" he offers this,

"According to current BATFE rules, making ammunition primers for your own personal use is legal (as is
making your own fireworks.) Selling them or even giving them away is not legal without acquiring the
appropriate Federal Licence(s) for manufacturing and selling explosives. Despite the absence of Federal
restrictions on personal primer manufacture, there may be state regulations that affect how you store
certain chemical compounds and in what quantities they may be stored. Consult competent legal advice
if you are unsure of your particular situation. Be aware that making primers in your home, garage, or
external workshop is likely to carry more restrictions than making them in a commercially zoned
building."

I also downloaded a copy of his "SHTF Homemade Primers", March 23, 2020 .  In this SHTF version he offers this -

Is it Legal

"In a SHTF situation, legality is of little concern as most laws will no longer be enforced. More likely, the
law of the jungle will exist, and life will be cruel and cheap. The major problem one must overcome in
this difficult situation is obtaining the supplies/chemicals needed to make workable primers. Prior
planning is worth its weight in gold here, but there are still options if you missed the boat. The more
civilization left in place, the easier it will be to get what you need to make primers."

I have some stock on hand but I also believe in working on projects before they are needed.  My development of alternative loads for my rifle is one of those.

When I read things like, "learning to make potassium chlorate from bleach and salt substitute sold in stores" or "finely ground fast pistol powder can be substituted for TNT in this primer formula", ... well, you just know you have embarked on a long journey.

Be careful if you go down this path.

Thanks OP!

This is a fascinating topic.

I will link this thread to my own primer thread.

Yep.

The best way to look at this is you would only make primers when neither of the following are options:

1) Loaded cartridges are available

2) Commercial primers are available

In such a world, why are you wanting to reload your own ammunition?  (Please don’t answer that question.)

In such a world, you are doing it because the risks are outweighed by the benefits.  Right now, we are not there.  Some day that may not be the case.

Since I uploaded this page I figured I would post it.

How many times can you re-use a primer before it become a safety issue?

Last I heard primers are back ordered until 2022, and I don't see much hope of them becoming available even after that.

IDK if you've noticed, but, unless you want to pay obscene prices, loaded ammo is almost impossible to find.

What are primers going for, $1/each?

That doesn't include the fact that reloaders like me have pet loads that are unavailable. 300AAC is big one. Sure there are commercial loads, but they are very expensive, if you can even find them.

Bullets and powder are readily available still, but the bottleneck, as always, is primers.

I'm sitting here thinking about whether or not I threw away all those empty primers I had. And wishing I had sorted them into rifle vs pistol .

As is I simply will have to use like they are all pistol primers.

The good news is that any future de-priming I do will be sorted into rifle vs pistol.

shamelessly stolen from another thread

Percussion caps use barium nitrate and lead styphnate as ingredients which are also used to make pistol/rifle/shotgun primers.

https://winchester.com/-/media/PDFs/Safety-Data-Sheets/PERCUSSION-CAPS/PERCUSSION-CAPS.ashx

I cheated and ordered a primer compound kit from sharpshooter. Also got the #11 cap punch so I can turn aluminum cans into caps. I hope he's reliable, because I just sent him $150. I bought enough primer compound to do ~10,000 primers. I doubt I could ever shoot that much in my lifetime. Maybe I need to get more?

https://sharpshooter-22lr-reloader.myshopify.com/collections/all

I was thinking about the 22lr reloading kit, but IDK @75$... I have a few buckets of 22lr, and already perfected using hardware store blanks to shoot 22cal air rifle pellets.

I haven't had a chance to test the roll caps yet.

He claims you can use the kit to do 209 primers, but I don't yet see how.

I like how he has a hardening compound in it. I'll need to find some acetone, most fingernail polish remover is not acetone these days, hopefully Lowes still has it in stock.

What I learned in my research is that rifle and pistol primers are supposedly different lengths, so I might be able to measure them with calipers to sort out my used ones, assuming I didn't throw them away. I can't recall if I kept them or not. I had a few thousand. Worst case, I will just keep the 4 types separate in the future, for reloading purposes.

I'm still kicking myself for not buying a crap ton of them last year. I figured, at the time, I still had a few thousand reloads to do, about one primer per empty case I had, at least, now I see I should have had at least 2 primers per empty case.

I just ordered some Prime All to try out.  I know it's corrosive, but seems to be one of the reliable options.  I still have a few thousand of each SPP, SRP, LPP.  I have several thousand cases and projectiles and sufficient powder.  Just want to see if reloading primers is a viable option until this all blows over.  At least I will the knowledge and experience if it become a long term needed solution.

i didn't see where it mentioned it is corrosive

<removed>please don't use that in this forum. See "Read before you post" tacked thread. dryflash3

thanks for the heads up.

Ordered a bit as well.

A buddy did the snap cap roll thing a few nights back. He removed the anvil, scraped out the spent priming compound, used a punch to flatten out the firing pin strike, then put two discs from the snap cap roll in the primer before gently reseating the anvil.

Said it fired just fine in a Glock.

No loaded ammo tests yet, but a promising start.

Ref the Prime All, anyone know if it's stable over a longer term? The website says 'good for 20yrs', but are they talking as a mixture, or as standalone components like how they arrive?

The guy I saw on youtube only used one per, and got 3/5 misfires.

If Prime-All is using potassium chlorate, then it does have a shelf life, because it slowly breaks down. I'm sure sealing it inside a cartridge will make it last a lot longer than sitting out on a shelf in a plastic baggie. Likely a good idea to seal the cases afterwards, just like if you were using them underwater, using a bit of fingernail polish on the primer and case mouth.

For long term storage I would definitely put the unmixed Prime-All in a glass jar with desiccant and oxygen absorbers.

It would likely be a good idea to dehydrate the snap caps for a while before using them.

I would try to make primers and load them on a day that has low humidity, or run a dehumidifier in the room you are loading in.

There is one thing that struck me while watching the video on making Prime-All.

He is using the same dipper to scoop each component. That is BAD, BAD, BAD.

I've got an extensive background in chemistry, and I can't think of a worse way of doing it. You will cross contaminate your ingredients. This may not be a deal breaker, as they are supposed to be mixed anyways, but it could possibly lead to some issues.

Also, it's a very good idea to use a mortar and pestle to grind each ingredient.

Do NOT use the same mortar and pestle for different ingredients.

He mentions in the video that the L with two scoops (likely potasium chlorate) is the only one that needs ground.

Do NOT underestimate the importance of that step.

I'm willing to bet that most issues people have are directly related to not grinding the L2 into fine powder.

I know that KCLO3 will clump up and solidify even when it is sealed in a glass jar, and plastic baggies are much more permeable to moisture.

I'm going to get on ebay and find cheap mortar to use for that step.

I ordered one of the kits to give it a try.  If I can get the anvil out with out damaging the primer body. We'll see if i can find a good amount that works.


Edit: tryed a few, anvils came out no problem with a pick. There is like one flake in there lol.

I believe the .22lr prime is a mix of:

Potassium Chlorate
Antimony Trisulfide
Powdered Glass

This is safer then Armstrongs mix used in caps....but still fantastically dangerous due to the sensitivity to friction, impact, and static.

Such mixtures should never exceed 1g, and really should be mixed damp, in a static free humid room. Container should be a waxed dixie cup cut down 2/3, stirred with a wooden stick. Heavy Leather gloves and full impact rated face mask....

1g is the power of a vintage, finger removing cherry salute, yet with 10x the sensitivity.

Its good to know how to do this sort of stuff, and have the ability to do so...but its still better to pay a scalper $200 per 1k primers then risk your hands and eyes.

I'll have to double check the text history, but I'm pretty sure my buddy tried one snap cap first and also had misfire issues.

Guessing the second took up the extra room between the primer cup and anvil and made sure the firing pin wasn't "pushing the snap cap onto the anvil" instead of igniting....akin to a primer which isn't fully seated in the primer pocket getting "seated" by the firing pin instead of igniting.

Or at least that's how I see it working in my mind....

For those who obviously have an above average knowledge in the chem department, would measuring and mixing the dry/powdered chemicals, and then mixing that into something like 99% isopropyl alcohol make it easier/safer to handle when it comes to applying to a cleaned out primer before allowing to dry? Would putting the anvil in place while still wet be advised or ill-advised?

Any ideas if that would also help with long-term storage of loaded ammunition using these?

In the video I believe it mentions a liquid binder like nail polish remover activating a hardner, but please correct me if I'm misremembering or otherwise quoting that incorrectly.

The safest method is weighing out micro qantities of each individual chem. I'd use a Zig-Zag rolling paper or something as a static free tiny container.

Ie
.5g PC on one paper
.5g AT on one paper
etc

Far more info can be found here:

https://www.docdroid.net/hSmhDsG/impact-firecrackers-john-donner-pdf

The Cane Torpedo seems relevant to primers. The two chems are wetted and mixed with dextrin, drying into a solid impact activated compound.

I would say, this realllllly is not something that should be pursued. Priming mix is the purview of those with a deep background in pyrotechnic and High Energy safety. Even within that field of guys who've been doing this for decades, most would be leery of messing with this shit.

Thank you for mentioning that.

In the video he says "plastic or glass mixing container" & "No metal".

Mixing impact explosives, by hand, in a glass container...

If it goes off you are literally holding a hand grenade.

What he should be saying is "metal contaminates will make it degrade over time and could make it self detonate/become more sensitive".

Good tip @spydercomonkey - Acetone and Dixie cup? Will it dissolve the wax? I think Acetone is polar enough to not melt the wax.

As for his recommendation to use plastic, it tend to collect extra electrons, not a good thing when a static spark could set off an explosive charge.

Wax coated Dixie cups are a really good idea, IMHO. As long as the acetone doesn't dissolve the wax too much, it will work great.

If it is KClO3, then H2O (Water) should be fine too, it's just that it takes extra work to dehydrate the primers afterwards. Acetone doesn't dissolve Potassium Chlorate, so making it a powder will be very important.

If using water, then finely grinding the KClO3 will be a little less important.

~80/20 acetone/water mixture could also work well as a wetting agent. It would mostly evaporate quickly, then gentle heating/dehydration would drive off the remainder of the moisture relatively quickly.

That's right, you'll need to apply heat to your impact/friction/heat sensitive explosives...



I read the CoC for reloading forum, looks like memes are not allowed (did I do that?), even site memes, but smilies are ok?

Attached File


I'd recommend leather gloves too, but loss of dexterity is more likely to get you blown up (in this case) than just going slow and keeping your fingers as far away from the explosive as possible.

I'd hold the top rim of the Dixie cup with my fingertips, when handling is necessary.  

Follow the one gram rule and you should be fine even if you do eff up somehow.

That sounds about right.

I'm still thinking a dehydration procedure is important befor selaing with with something non-polar like spray paint.

Hair spray is easily dissolved with water, making it a polar chemical, thus it has an affinity and is easily dissolved by water.

Maybe use factory packaging to hold the anvil side up, then hit with spray paint. Then put in the oven on LOW heat, again.

Put your oven as low as possible and leave door cracked for dehydration, and then (maybe) for curing the paint..

I think water and dextrin is what was used in the vintage Cane Caps referenced in the impact crackers book. This moistens and also binds the mix.

Not worth messing with solvents; once the little primers are made, they would be easy to dry in a food dehydrator, or in summer, in a carboard box left in direct sunlight.

Acetone would dry too quickly, by the time you got the mix in the primer cup and went to insert the anvil, it would now be dry and active. If one went off, the little metal cup would blast the little metal pieces into your hand and face.

Once again, I'd seriously advise against messing with these class of mixtures.

This would really only be worth it in a Japan/UK type scenario where one has to completely scratch produce components.

Paying $200 for 1k primers, vs risking hands and eyes...just pay the $200.

These type of impact / friction initiated compounds are essentially a deliberate violation of basic "do not mix" pyro safety rules. Its akin to taking a loaded pistol with a 5lb trigger, pointing it at your hand, and then putting 4lbs of pressure on the trigger. Thats the margin of error allowed.

Definitely put the anvil in before it dries.

And do it gently.

The people saying "only mix a small amount" are not joking.

KClO3 is moderately soluble in ethanol, so using "Everclear" or denatured alcohol should work well.

I don't know what he is using as a "hardener", maybe some kind of epoxy dust instead of glass powder, or mixed in with the glass powder?

If it is an epoxy dust then the solvent needs to be very specific, but since acetone doesn't dissolve KClO3, then grinding would be very important.

If you use something like 50:50 acetone:ethanol, then that might be the best of both worlds.

That mixture would dissolve an epoxy dust and the KClO3, and easily/quickly evaporate.

Gentle heating would easily drive off all the solvent.

Something like 40:40:10 -Acetone:Ethanol:Water could also work well, depending on what his "hardener" is, but I'm betting it is an epoxy resin, which means water is not going to work well in the mixture.

You'd only need an eye dropper drop (or few) to mix the amount those scoops measure, something the consistency of wet mud is what you would be aiming for, then (after putting it in the primers and seating the anvils) heat it very gently for an hour or so.

Set the oven on lowest setting and leave the door cracked. Most ovens should allow ~185 degrees F.

Definitely don't go higher than ~200F

If they start to cook off you'll know you got it too hot.



You might want to try just a few at a time to start with, and don't handle them when still warm.

Let the oven cool down first before pulling them out, then load them immediately, so moisture from the air doesn't absorb into the KClO3.

Final step would be to use a small amount of fingernail polish to seal the case.

Some things stand out about what he is selling. The biggest being he isn't very specific about the solvent used, or the amount.

Or the loading procedure.

Like baking a cake where they don't tewll you how long to cook it, or the order to mix the ingredients.

Sure, you might get it right, but it needs to be a very specific recipe for safety and reliability.

He doesn't say what the ingredients are, maybe he would be willing to send the MSDS?

Without knowing what the components are it's impossible to say what the best method is.

If the hardener is dextrin then water would be an important part of the solvent, as dextrin is more soluble in water. And KClO3 is very soluble in water. The only concern would then be ensuring it was heated properly to drive off all the solvent.

I'll bet that's why acetone is more popular, because it is faster (and is more dangerous for the same reason).

No update on the order.



I ordered a percussion cap maker with it.

I'm starting to think it might be a while before it ships.

I might need to just buy ingredients off ebay, but IDK about making caps, that cap punch he is selling looked awesome.

Looks like he might be waiting to get enough orders to have a batch machined

When I hit him up about cancelling an item from my order, but keeping the mixture order active, he replied they were about a month behind on that product.

Styphnic Acid is the product of nitration of resorcinol.  It’s not difficult to make but you really need some organic chemistry + lab classes to do it comfortably.  You then neutralize with magnesium carbonate and then mix with a solution of a lead salt.

I decided to jump on the crazy train and try this a while ago.  I am willing to try it as I will not pay the avg going rate.  I have a small stash compared to most, and want to preserve it for as long as possible.  Reloading them might be doable.   I have converted Berdan cases to Boxer using my DYI kit, so willing look at just about anything.

Opted to go the Prime All route.  Been 3 weeks.  Thought I would come over here now to see if anyone else has the patience.

From what I gather, the general problem with Prime All is to get it to adhere/stay on the bottom of the cup.  There are several videos out there where a diluted mix of shellac/acetone, thin paper/acetone, or all of the above.  All with mixed results.  Of course, these are random people so, dunno how thorough they are...some make me cringe will I watch them prime a case using a vise

Good point about using a glass container above.   Mixing in small amounts is obviously important.

One thing that I have noticed and think may be involved, is mixing mfg anvils and cups.  Not all anvils are the same.
I have a bunch separated, flattened, and cleaned.  One thing I have found that makes it a bit easier is to use a ram prime to hold the primer and then use a pic to separate.  Rig a plastic bag underneath, some will fly.  I would not use ram to load as it is, well, metal.

If I ever get the stuff, I will follow up.

When doing anything "chemistry" related, it's very important to have a very comprehensive "cook book".

Every little step is important.

That's what is so disappointing in "prime-all's" instructions.

He leaves out a lot of steps, glosses over others.

Kind of a "hold me beer" sort of method.

<snip> save that for GD. dryflash3

I read some stuff on making black powder recently.

Lots of different methods work good, or at least simply work... and it took hundreds of years for a "best one" to be determined.

So, I've been doing this for a few years, saving my thousands of factory primers for SHTF loads or hunting rounds.

Method one:  H-48 formula.  There are recipes for it out there.  Uses Potassium Chlorate, sulphur and antimony trisulphate (same as sulphate).  You mix them appropriately, carefully in paper, then put into primer cups.  I desensitize the mixture in the primer with a blend of shellac and high proof alcohol so I can set the anvil.  Allow them to dry then load.  Some folks add ground glass, but the Frankford Arsenal (WAYY back in the day), conjectured that it wore out throats and bores (not founded as the amount is very low) and that the antimony acts as a frictioner.  DEFINITELY add sodium bicarbonate to the mix (the potassium) to stabilize it and it seems (seems, unscientific) to help with corrosion, but this mixture is corrosive.

Method two:  Strike on box matches.  I crimp off the match head mixture onto paper, then grind with a pestle and mortar (I use a hammer to grind it in on the paper).  You then scratch off some of the striking material on the side of the box, then mix thoroughly by folding the paper in different directions.  Pack gently into primer, desensitize with a small piece of paper and alcohol before setting an anvil.  I've had some of these pop off if you get too rough with repriming, but seem to be just fine in the sensitivity department after set.

Both are corrosive, so I use them only for my Glocks and revolvers.  No corrosion issues so far and has really extended my primer supply.  The cost is low, but the labor is a bit high.  Also, the Glock popped primers don't seem to be very uniform after reforming, with wrinkles because the primer strike is so radically shaped.  I have not had many misfires and for practice, it's just fine.  I have done them with my ARs, but the cleaning afterwards to ensure I didn't get corroded gas tubes, etc... was a bit laborious.

The H-48 formula is a pain to source for.  You can make potassium chlorate at home with bleach, salt substitute and a heat source, but it's gassy (smells like crap and can give you breathing problems).  Antimony Sulfate is easy to get online, even buying it at Amazon.  You can get it all online at pyro supply places, but more and more of them are getting ATF wary.  If you attempt to order all three chemicals together, you WILL have to have an ATF license because it makes M-80s.

The cap concept is quickly becoming more and more unreliable.  They have been reducing the charges in the caps to the point they are not the caps of yesteryear.  Forster had a "Tap O Cap" tool that allowed you to make percussion caps from toy caps, but they discontinued as the power of the caps became unreliable.

Making primers is pretty fun and the savings are real.  My fav is making .45 GAP loads from small primer .45 ACP brass with reprimed primers.  Really confuses everyone.  Boutique meets homemade.

no update here either.  Its been like 2 weeks

Marshals EPH20 seems like the safest route as long as you can keep from eating your ingredients.  The mix isn't activated until you put some water in the cup so the possibility of a mass detonation is pretty much completely removed.  I don't have much desire to reload a significant number of primers but it would be nice to know you can do it if you want to.
http://aardvarkreloading.com/eph20.html

I haven’t dissected any primers to compare, but is there any deformity to the anvil on a spent primer? Is it deformed during shooting or depriming the fired case? If there is, how would you reshape it to get reliable function?

Is there a kit to make your own primer (cups?) like the punch he used to make the percussion caps?

Two things:

1) It’s “Antimony Trisulfide”, not sulfate.  Completely different chemical.

2) Never use potassium chlorate and sulfur in the same formula.  Sulfur slowly oxidizes in air to produce sulfurous and sulfuric acids.  The acids then convert the potassium chlorate to chloric acid which causes spontaneous combustion.  This can be mitigated to some extent by using sodium bicarbonate in the formula to neutralize the acid as it’s produced.  But it’s better not to use it in the first place.

user name check out...



Yeah.

These things happen, I live near McAlester, the only explosives manufacturing facility in the USA military,

At 11 O'clock, at least once a week, they fire off old explosives for about an hour...

You can feel the shock wave hit before you hear it.

It travels in the ground faster than in the air.

Just saw Greenland film, pretty accurate...

I just recieved a shipping notification! I'll know soon.

Question,  is the paper under the anvil a must?

Deleted