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Posted: 4/28/2021 7:31:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Why mini shells? I couldn't find wads with a quick search, that means experimenting by trimming or loading with cardboard wads and roll crimps.
If you have found load data, point me that way, I'm curious. My opinion is that you should load conventional ammunition first and master that process first. Gas operated guns generally require a minimum volume of gas to function, maybe a mini shells will work, maybe not. A few days back someone asked about trimming cases to make mini shells. I skipped over that one, but if I were to try it, I would scare up straight wall hulls to get a better shot at forming a folded crimp. . |
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Posted: 4/28/2021 8:16:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why mini shells? I have a bunch of them and wanted to see if they were a viable reloading option since you can put more shells in the shotgun. I couldn't find wads with a quick search, that means experimenting by trimming or loading with cardboard wads and roll crimps. If you have found load data, point me that way, I'm curious. I don't have any load data. This post was more about if it could be done. If people have tried and no one has succeeded then I would not bother trying until I have a good grasp on reloading. I don't want to try anything dangerous. My opinion is that you should load conventional ammunition first and master that process first. That was the plan, this was more for down the line. Gas operated guns generally require a minimum volume of gas to function, maybe a mini shells will work, maybe not. A few days back someone asked about trimming cases to make mini shells. I skipped over that one, but if I were to try it, I would scare up straight wall hulls to get a better shot at forming a folded crimp. I have a few boxes of mini shells I have not shot yet. If I were game to try this at some point, I would pick up the hulls at the range and store them to try later. . |
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Posted: 4/28/2021 10:58:04 PM EDT
[#3]
Shotgun ammunition is mostly loaded according to a published recipe with the was, hull, shot charge, and gunpowder charge matched.
Aguilar 12 gauge ammunition uses a 5/8th's ounce shot load. I'd like to the internal components. Muzzle velocity is reported to be 1200 fps. A couple of suppliers; I didn't link specific components you will need. https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php# https://www.ballisticproducts.com/mobile/Short-Shell-Wad-12ga-250_bag/productinfo/072SSW/ You'll need to buy a shotgun loader unless you happen on an old set of LEE or RCBS dies, or go really old school with an ancient roll crimper and make everything else needed to load the cases. . |
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Posted: 4/28/2021 11:20:59 PM EDT
[#4]
I load quite a few shotgun shells without a press simply because I'm loading specialty shells - 16ga 2 1/2". So I buy new primed hulls, cut them down, load by hand, and roll crimp on my drill press with a homemade shell holder. I've had to do some experimenting and send rounds in for pressure testing as a result.
Ballistic products makes some short wad column wads. Maybe you could with some experimentation work with them, and roll crimp a 2" shell that would cycle. Then send them in to Precision Reloading for pressure testing to make sure they are to spec and consistent. That being said: Shotgun loading isn't generally something you just start throwing stuff together. You are supposed to follow a recipe exactly, as in each and every component per the recipe. This is low pressure stuff and very minor changes can add a couple thousand PSI and put you over SAAMI specs. The nice thing about roll crimping is you can keep a pretty consistent crimp even if the column height of the components varies a little. If you try that with a fold crimp system you end up with crap shells. |
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Posted: 4/29/2021 6:34:03 AM EDT
[#5]
Thank you guys. Since I am new to all this I did not realize the difference between reloading metallic and shotguns. My buddy and I won an online auction for a Hornady 366 Auto that we are going to drive down and pick up this morning. I'll talk to him and see if we can find some load data for mini's and if we can't then we will just reload regular and call it a day.
thanks for the links AeroE, I'll check them out after I get back from getting the press. |
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Posted: 4/29/2021 6:51:03 AM EDT
[#6]
My MEC jrs load 2 3/4 - 3" for 12 and 20, the 10 gauge loads 3 1/2" shells. So to load minis you would have to drill and tap a mounting hole for the column, and probably have to cut the column down also,
eta - the column on the MEC jrs should not need to be cut for minishells, you have to drill and tap the hole though, looks to be a 1/4 - 20 or a 7/16". |
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Posted: 4/29/2021 7:35:50 AM EDT
[#7]
Look at Graf and Sons, Mid South, and other suppliers for wads. Monsour's in Lacrosse Wisconsin is good if you live close.
If you are near St. Charles Missouri, then Full Circle for wads, shot, primers, and gunpowder. This is a good place to get fair prices on shot. Late summer The American Grand will have deals on supplies. I don't know whether it will be back in Sparta Illinois this year, or in Linn Missouri again. Ballistic Products is my source for unusual components. Shot prices will be a shock most likely. . |
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Posted: 4/29/2021 10:27:11 AM EDT
[#8]
If it helps to visualize shotshell reloading, you might think of shotgun data as a formula, it needs to be followed exactly.
In comparison, metallic reloading is more like a recipe, subject to and tolerant of limited personal tweaks. |
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Posted: 4/29/2021 12:00:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Thank you to everyone for there input. I think for now the minishells are off the table. I'll address this again once I have some shotgun reloading experience and maybe by then there will be aftermarket support for this.
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Posted: 4/29/2021 12:47:48 PM EDT
[#10]
The other issue you’d possibly run into is feeding in general. Lots of pump guns won’t run them so even if you got the pressure right they might not feed. It would be cool if somebody built a dedicated gun for them even though the market would be tiny.
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Posted: 4/29/2021 1:47:44 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The other issue you’d possibly run into is feeding in general. Lots of pump guns won’t run them so even if you got the pressure right they might not feed. It would be cool if somebody built a dedicated gun for them even though the market would be tiny. |
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Posted: 4/29/2021 4:14:58 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I recall it is the Winchester Defender that will feed the mini shells. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The other issue you’d possibly run into is feeding in general. Lots of pump guns won’t run them so even if you got the pressure right they might not feed. It would be cool if somebody built a dedicated gun for them even though the market would be tiny. I recall it is the Winchester Defender that will feed the mini shells. My Remington 870 runs them just fine. I am hoping that my Benelli M2 will run them but, from what I have found in research semi auto's normally don't run well on them. |
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Posted: 4/29/2021 5:09:41 PM EDT
[#13]
I've tried them in a Benelli Ethos and my 1100--no dice. Not enough gas with any of the three loads they have. My KSG, O/U and Mossberg 500 will run them, but the 500 gets a little finicky double dropping them from the magazine.
I'd love to have load data, but in the last 3-4 years I've used them intermittently I've yet to see any published info. It sucks to have a few hundred hulls sitting around that are basically useless now. I thought a used modified Mec Jr. would make a good loader for them, but as someone mentioned, it means cutting down the column in the press to get the height and crimp correct. They are fun to load up and smack clays with the KSG on a skeet field... Dont need to reload the gun until you get around to station 8! |
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Posted: 4/30/2021 12:29:18 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: it means cutting down the column in the press ...or make an adjustable column. |
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Posted: 5/3/2021 2:19:06 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ...or make an adjustable column. The MEC comes with an adjustable column, 2 3/4 or 3" with the available holes. Drilling and tapping a new hole in the column could prove difficult finding the happy spot. Looking at the 20 ga MEC this morning, one could slot the frame, and move the column down to were you need. I'd still drill and tap another hole. Then shim the bottom of the column as needed for support I'd use wax the frame, tape it off with clear packing tape, fit a piece of wood, and bondoize it in.  If I had access to a band saw and sander, just cut a piece of aluminum , then use shim stock as needed, the MECs come with lots of adjustment built into the die sets. Good luck. |
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Posted: 5/3/2021 2:28:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've tried them in a Benelli Ethos and my 1100--no dice. Not enough gas with any of the three loads they have. My KSG, O/U and Mossberg 500 will run them, but the 500 gets a little finicky double dropping them from the magazine. I'd love to have load data, but in the last 3-4 years I've used them intermittently I've yet to see any published info. It sucks to have a few hundred hulls sitting around that are basically useless now. I thought a used modified Mec Jr. would make a good loader for them, but as someone mentioned, it means cutting down the column in the press to get the height and crimp correct. They are fun to load up and smack clays with the KSG on a skeet field... Dont need to reload the gun until you get around to station 8! Just checked, the column has a lot of clarance on the 20 ga Mark 5, and the old 12 ga MEC jr has lots of downward clarance also Also while I was a RO at the local skeet range circa 1974,Maple Grove RIP  it was all single load, since most had O/U's, only time you put 2 in was for doubles.
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Posted: 5/3/2021 2:43:41 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thank you to everyone for there input. I think for now the minishells are off the table. I'll address this again once I have some shotgun reloading experience and maybe by then there will be aftermarket support for this. We are the aftermarket. We are the reloaders, We are the Wildcaters. We have the knowledge. If not CastBoolits does  I remember cutting cardboard up as a wad column and just dumping in the shot if a wad wasn't made that worked. Ya the shot contacted the barrel, it didn't bother my soft steel recall wingmaster barrel though. Today, that would mean cutting off the wad column of a wad, and just stacking cardboard until crimp is right. You don't want high crimp #, just enough for the crimp, or you build up pressure. Sometimes I would stand on a scale to see what my MEC's were doing. Think 35 # is max wad pressure. |
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Posted: 5/3/2021 3:25:59 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just checked, the column has a lot of clarance on the 20 ga Mark 5, and the old 12 ga MEC jr has lots of downward clarance also Also while I was a RO at the local skeet range circa 1974,Maple Grove RIP it was all single load, since most had O/U's, only time you put 2 in was for doubles.Single loading for singles is a range specific rule. I.e. its not an nssa rule, but some ranges have the rule. What is a rule is you can't load more than you're going to shoot. You can load 2 for your singles, then 2 for doubles. If you're just shooting your option - you can load one. If you're shooting high 8, you can load 1. You never, never step off the pad with a live round in the magazine. |
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Posted: 5/3/2021 7:27:50 PM EDT
[#19]
I have a couple of extra crimpers, I think I would do all the load steps in blocks, then crimp by mashing with the drill press.
I could use the crimp starter by removing it from my press, but that is icky. I have Grabbers and a RCBS Grand, so shimming up on a block won't work. I wonder if there is a black iron pipe fitting with an inside bell that could be used to start a roll crimp. The plastic might keep rolling over to complete the crimp. . |
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Posted: 5/4/2021 1:46:30 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We are the aftermarket. We are the reloaders, We are the Wildcaters. We have the knowledge. If not CastBoolits does I remember cutting cardboard up as a wad column and just dumping in the shot if a wad wasn't made that worked. Ya the shot contacted the barrel, it didn't bother my soft steel recall wingmaster barrel though. Today, that would mean cutting off the wad column of a wad, and just stacking cardboard until crimp is right. You don't want high crimp #, just enough for the crimp, or you build up pressure. Sometimes I would stand on a scale to see what my MEC's were doing. Think 35 # is max wad pressure. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Thank you to everyone for there input. I think for now the minishells are off the table. I'll address this again once I have some shotgun reloading experience and maybe by then there will be aftermarket support for this. We are the aftermarket. We are the reloaders, We are the Wildcaters. We have the knowledge. If not CastBoolits does I remember cutting cardboard up as a wad column and just dumping in the shot if a wad wasn't made that worked. Ya the shot contacted the barrel, it didn't bother my soft steel recall wingmaster barrel though. Today, that would mean cutting off the wad column of a wad, and just stacking cardboard until crimp is right. You don't want high crimp #, just enough for the crimp, or you build up pressure. Sometimes I would stand on a scale to see what my MEC's were doing. Think 35 # is max wad pressure. Having never reloaded before I will leave the wild frontier to those that know what they are doing. I might experiment once I have some experience under my belt and I am confident I won't hurt myself. |
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Posted: 5/4/2021 2:03:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Having never reloaded before I will leave the wild frontier to those that know what they are doing. I might experiment once I have some experience under my belt and I am confident I won't hurt myself. Probably a solid plan. I've been reloading (rifle & handgun) since I was ~7 years old, so let's just say a long time & I still don't like to color outside the lines when it comes to reloading & only do it when I can see that the line itself might be off. If you compare different loading manuals from old to new & from different manufacturers you will see the line itself can be all over the place which gives a conservative reloader like me the vapors.  |
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Posted: 5/4/2021 2:26:43 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Probably a solid plan. I've been reloading (rifle & handgun) since I was ~7 years old, so let's just say a long time & I still don't like to color outside the lines when it comes to reloading & only do it when I can see that the line itself might be off. If you compare different loading manuals from old to new & from different manufacturers you will see the line itself can be all over the place which gives a conservative reloader like me the vapors. The nice thing about metallic reloading is that you can start a bit low and work up loads and watch for pressure signs. Primer flattening, difficulty extracting, etc. With shotguns you don't get that. The gun is the weak link and there are no pressure signs to watch for. Thats why you stick to published and tested recipes - or send stuff out to be pressure tested if you feel like coloring outside the lines. |
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