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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2019 10:28:06 AM EDT
[#1]
My ESL10 died after 5 years. It started to intermittently open my safe. Yes, I did try fresh batteries.
I did take the batteries out for a while and then reattach the batteries. It would then work one or two times and then start to not work again. I took this as a sign that the ESL10 lock was failing and I left the door to my safe open.. a1abdj recommended a high quality S&G Mechanical lock to replace it with. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 5/3/2019 9:12:02 AM EDT
[#2]
Do the depth dimensions on the AMSEC website take into account the lock and handle?
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Posted: 5/3/2019 11:47:25 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By m6z:
Do the depth dimensions on the AMSEC website take into account the lock and handle? |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/8/2019 11:57:37 AM EDT
[#4]
Thanks for your time and knowledge. Recently purchased a secondhand AMSEC safe after weeks of researching and scouring the interwebz. It’s an older model and a beast. Rented a motorcycle trailer and my buddy who is a legit bodybuilder came with me [both in our 30’s] and it was STILL a bear.
It’s in good to very good condition and will serve my purposes well. Paid $450. Model is rst6030. Manufactured in 1991. I’m pleased with it but my recent research etc has made me curious about this model and it’s old enough I have searched and searched but cannot find anything. I called AMSEC and they were just like “oh wow... yeah that’s an old one” TLDR: anyone with knowledge/info/trivia about AMSEC rst6030? Thanks! AATW!! |
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Posted: 5/8/2019 1:17:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DrBiscuits:
Thanks for your time and knowledge. Recently purchased a secondhand AMSEC safe after weeks of researching and scouring the interwebz. It’s an older model and a beast. Rented a motorcycle trailer and my buddy who is a legit bodybuilder came with me [both in our 30’s] and it was STILL a bear. It’s in good to very good condition and will serve my purposes well. Paid $450. Model is rst6030. Manufactured in 1991. I’m pleased with it but my recent research etc has made me curious about this model and it’s old enough I have searched and searched but cannot find anything. I called AMSEC and they were just like “oh wow... yeah that’s an old one” TLDR: anyone with knowledge/info/trivia about AMSEC rst6030? Thanks! AATW!! |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/8/2019 2:01:46 PM EDT
[#6]
Thank you so much. It believe it has some degree of fire protection although I realize it probably doesn’t fit any current day rating/standard. Very happy with a price point half of the big box store pseudo-safes and superior protection by far. What would you guess for weight? I bought the largest hand truck I could find in the county, rated at 1,000lb and it was crushing the tires like a Dixie cup. Ultimately took the door off an it was surprisingly easy to do so, for a safe almost 30yrs old; a testament to the quality I believe. Thanks again for your help!
AATW!! |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 5/9/2019 12:36:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Possible]
[#7]
Tony, I have a few more questions, about fire safes in general this time.
I just bought an old office fire safe for a song since it didn't have a combination. I got it open to find that the fire lining inside the door was cracked, and apparently was so previously, as it had patches of grout over some of the cracks. Would this be of any concern regarding the fire rating? Should the cracks be regrouted? Would modern 3M Fire Barrier caulk be superior to grout for this job, if it's even a concern at all? Thank you in advance. (For anyone wondering, this is not an AmSec product.) 
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CA, USA
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Posted: 5/9/2019 12:47:51 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DrBiscuits:Recently purchased a secondhand AMSEC safe after weeks of researching and scouring the interwebz. It’s an older model and a beast. 
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/10/2019 11:14:15 PM EDT
[#9]
That is the one!!
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CA, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2019 5:10:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Possible]
[#10]
......ideally, it would be great to find a heat resistant bonding agent thin enough that it could be poured into the cracks with the door laid flat. Is there anything like that?
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CA, USA
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Posted: 5/14/2019 7:56:53 PM EDT
[#11]
TSG,
Never knew AMSEC makes a 10,000lb Bulletproof Stainless Steel vault door? 
https://youtu.be/CwMBrNEpYfs?t=314 Can you tell me where I can get this special edition model? Lol |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 5/14/2019 8:32:35 PM EDT
[#12]
Never knew AMSEC makes a 10,000lb Bulletproof Stainless Steel vault door? 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/3/2019 8:59:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JFollow]
[#13]
Hello TSG! Thanks for all the great info and for getting out in front of the customer in this way. Pretty awesome stuff.
I've been keeping an eye out for a used smaller BF safe, ideally 3416, but I came across a local 2116 that I couldn't pass up. Like 'Possible' discussed a few months ago, this one is also an older one. It's a Q4 1998 vintage BF, that most closely resembles the current BF2116, but it's a hair smaller at 25" high, 20.5" wide, and 20.25" deep. It has a ESL10 installed, which I assume has been there the entire ~20 years or so. I wonder if, strictly due to age, I should change it out for a new lock. Here are some other questions that those with older safes might also appreciate: - Not knowing the number of cycles, is there an age at which an electronic lock should be replaced (ESL line or otherwise)? I know you mentioned previously that these have been tested to 1 million cycles, however do you have any statistics showing any relatively significant increase in failure rate with age? Or otherwise, any personal recommendation? - Can the age of an ESL lock be determined based on the SN? Nothing in the SN sticks out to me, although the circuit card does say "25-03". A Customer service rep’s best guess was it was 12-15 years old and didn’t think it came with the safe. He said 1998 safe’s came with dials, but catalog page says electronic locks were an option. - As a seller of the LP Rotobolt redundant lock, what do you think of this design? I read that you weren’t aware of any failures a few years back, any updated opinions? - Would there be a benefit and is there a way to replace the Triple Finger Silicone Seal found on these older BF designs with a newer intumescent and "smoke" seal? I saw replacement PNs for larger BFs, are those available in the smaller line? Thanks again! 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/7/2019 9:35:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JFollow]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Possible:
Here are the dimensions I have seen for the BF1716, as compared to the dimensions of mine (depths not including the handle). BF1716--22.25"H 21.75"W 21.75"D MINE-----21.00"H 20.75"W 23.75"D I assumed mine was a BF1716 since the dimensions were the closest, but the label just says "BF". Was there only one model originally? Here's a lousy frontal shot. 
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/15/2019 2:12:14 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryThought you might appreciate this old BF catalog page. Got it from AMSEC earlier today. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/15/2019 8:26:06 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Possible: Any idea what year that represents? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/15/2019 9:10:15 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JFollow:
- Not knowing the number of cycles, is there an age at which an electronic lock should be replaced (ESL line or otherwise)? - Can the age of an ESL lock be determined based on the SN? Nothing in the SN sticks out to me, although the circuit card does say "25-03". - I ended up replacing my electronic lock with a dial lock. The engineer in me had to know what made this ESL10 tick. So of course, it was disassembled for inspection. The '25-03' found on the keypad circuit board was confirmed to be a date code. There were similar date codes inside the lock, on the circuit board and on one of the components (I assume a microprocessor). Both were 2003 date codes. So the keypad circuit board "XX-XX" code could be an indication of how old your lock is (unless your keypad was replaced after initial install). - Regarding the design and condition of the ESL10, I was quite impressed. It is very simple and elegant. The anti-bump mechanism is quite nifty. The design consists of one circuit board (primarily a couple very small electrolytic caps, chip caps & resistors and this microprocessor device), the solenoid, the locking bolt w/anti-bump, and a relocker. Mine was still working, but given the age (16 years) and unknown use history, I decided replacing it was prudent. The inside of the lock showed very little wear and no obvious risk of imminent failure. Just my (somewhat obvious) guess, unless the lock has extremely high rate of usage, the likely failure mode for this lock is the electronics, not the mechanicals. If quality electronics and manufacturing practices are used, this should be an extremely reliable lock, just as TSG states. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/17/2019 8:03:32 AM EDT
[#18]
FYI, the ESL10 on my BF6032 failed after 5 years. I also replaced mine with a mechanical lock. I work as an engineer for a company that makes networking equipment. All electronic products fail at some point.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/18/2019 10:58:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TacomaCZ75Man]
[#19]
Howdy from Texas,
Just registered for the forum. I'm a gun guy who is looking at Amsec safes. Found a AMSEC TF5517E5 new and a Southeastern G-6022 used. I can buy the Amsec TF5517E5 new locally for $650. A good used safe would be just fine for my budget. Thanks! Chris P.S. Well looks like I had one of those senior moments. I mistakenly thought the G-6022 was an AMSEC safe. It is a Southeastern brand safe. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/18/2019 10:32:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dcashel:
FYI, the ESL10 on my BF6032 failed after 5 years. I also replaced mine with a mechanical lock. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/19/2019 7:52:44 AM EDT
[#21]
I got lucky. I noticed that my lock started to have problems opening my safe. So, I left the door to the safe open to test the lock and it finally stopped working. I tried changing batteries, etc... I talked to a1abdj on this forum and he recommended a S&G6730 which is working great.
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/19/2019 11:01:27 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dcashel:
I got lucky. I noticed that my lock started to have problems opening my safe. So, I left the door to the safe open to test the lock and it finally stopped working. I tried changing batteries, etc... |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/24/2019 9:06:43 AM EDT
[#23]
No, I did not investigate. I just had a safe technician change it to a S&G6730. I work as an engineer that makes networking products that have electronic circuit boards in them. All electronics will fail at a certain point. Some will fail after 30 days and some will last 10 years.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/3/2019 1:50:03 PM EDT
[#24]
My Amsec safes ESL20 is starting to eat batteries.
To the point of a pair a week and I no longer feel confident to let it go. Apparently there is a new (to me ?) lock manufactured by Securam Extreme that has both a digital and manual operation. Bluetooth too ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWXHgrNs3Ss I'd like to replace my ESL20 with this if possible. I used to be an aircraft mechanic for 20 years so if its a moderately simple task I can DIY. Or should I just replace the ESL and be done with it ? PS Im not going straight manual. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 8/8/2019 10:14:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: issor]
[#25]
I have a question for TheSafeGuy.
But first I want to say it took me several days to get through all of the posts here as I'm in the market for my first quality safe. Amazing details and I learned a lot. FYI I am a retired mechanical engineer and TSG gives answers that reconcile with my engineering knowledge. His posts made me smile many times while reading. No BS! 1. I am looking to buy either a BF2116 or BF3416. I was wondering, can it be ordered with the upgraded 4 gauge steel inner liner that is mentioned throughout this thread? 2. Is there a way to run AC into the safe? I know some safes have AC through an installed grommet setup. I want to run a dehumidifier rod inside. 3. Are there any plans to make these safes according to the RSC Level II, as was done with the BF gun safes? I would love to get that. 4. I note the difference in fire ratings - 1 hour vs 1/2 hour. Is there really such a big difference in fire protection? Or was it a case of the BF3416 being just a little shy of the 1 hour rating? I realize larger safes have a disadvantage in fire ratings based on reading this thread. Thanks for any insight you can provide. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 8/19/2019 11:02:16 PM EDT
[#26]
Wow! It took 10 days at an hour or two per day to get through this entire thread. Tony, Wow! What a fantastic service you have provided. This realm of information just does not exist anywhere else on the internet. Thank you so much!
At the start of all of this I was leaning toward an RF6528 to hold a dozen rifles, 1/2 dozen handguns (and growing) and some valuables and documents. My local dealer in Richmond happens to be a Gold Dealer, has some of the AMSEC line up but not this one nor the BF line (he says he can't keep the latter in stock). I am considering the BF7240 and it's BFII upgrade. The BFII's pricing gets close enough to the RF that I'm still there. My dealer thinks even the BF is overkill in my suburban area. Regardless of landing point this safe is going on my garage slab, bolted down. 70% of me says RF. The remaining 30 is the doubt from my learning here, and particularly about the burglarizing of residential BF's being very uncommon, and it has me wondering if the RF will be worth the almost 2 large difference in price. Thoughts? |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 8/21/2019 11:04:01 AM EDT
[#27]
No TSG for 3 months. I hope he is well AND that he has not been chased off.
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Posted: 10/24/2019 12:12:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#28]
Sorry for my absence. Work and life have been a stormy blur with little time to do anything I really want to do. I'll try to get caught up...
I did get to the range once or twice, and went fishing three times this summer. So, it's all good. I hope to keep a closer eye on this thread and others though. |
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Posted: 10/24/2019 12:27:15 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Possible:
Tony, I have a few more questions, about fire safes in general this time. I just bought an old office fire safe for a song since it didn't have a combination. I got it open to find that the fire lining inside the door was cracked, and apparently was so previously, as it had patches of grout over some of the cracks. Would this be of any concern regarding the fire rating? Should the cracks be regrouted? Would modern 3M Fire Barrier caulk be superior to grout for this job, if it's even a concern at all? Thank you in advance. (For anyone wondering, this is not an AmSec product.) https://i.imgur.com/HHpkAWhh.jpg |
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Posted: 10/24/2019 12:31:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Possible:
......ideally, it would be great to find a heat resistant bonding agent thin enough that it could be poured into the cracks with the door laid flat. Is there anything like that? |
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Posted: 10/24/2019 12:34:08 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cfrea:
TSG, Never knew AMSEC makes a 10,000lb Bulletproof Stainless Steel vault door?
https://youtu.be/CwMBrNEpYfs?t=314 Can you tell me where I can get this special edition model? Lol |
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Posted: 10/24/2019 1:03:01 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JFollow:
- Not knowing the number of cycles, is there an age at which an electronic lock should be replaced (ESL line or otherwise)? I know you mentioned previously that these have been tested to 1 million cycles, however do you have any statistics showing any relatively significant increase in failure rate with age? Or otherwise, any personal recommendation? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JFollow:
- Not knowing the number of cycles, is there an age at which an electronic lock should be replaced (ESL line or otherwise)? I know you mentioned previously that these have been tested to 1 million cycles, however do you have any statistics showing any relatively significant increase in failure rate with age? Or otherwise, any personal recommendation? - Can the age of an ESL lock be determined based on the SN? Nothing in the SN sticks out to me, although the circuit card does say "25-03". A Customer service rep’s best guess was it was 12-15 years old and didn’t think it came with the safe. He said 1998 safe’s came with dials, but catalog page says electronic locks were an option. - As a seller of the LP Rotobolt redundant lock, what do you think of this design? I read that you weren’t aware of any failures a few years back, any updated opinions? - Would there be a benefit and is there a way to replace the Triple Finger Silicone Seal found on these older BF designs with a newer intumescent and "smoke" seal? I saw replacement PNs for larger BFs, are those available in the smaller line? It should not be necessary to replace the silicone finger-seals. However, the later use of intumescent seals does provide a more durable and lasting seal architecture. If your seals are damages or not staying in place, using the Palusol seals is a good strategy to mitigate any potential failure in case of a fire. |
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Posted: 10/24/2019 1:05:39 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy: All dimensions are without allowance for handles/dials/keypads. Add 2 inches to the depth to account for these features. |
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Posted: 10/24/2019 1:07:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Possible: In the event of your electronic lock failure, how did you get the safe open to replace the lock? If you suffer a catastrophic sudden breakdown, the safe usually has to be drilled. There are techniques that may get some locks to open again to facilitate replacement. A significant source of failures is related to loose electrical connections, and that can be fixed if it's on the front-end. If it's inside, then impact and vibration sometimes gets you that one opening opportunity you need. |
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Posted: 10/24/2019 1:21:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lightguy:
My Amsec safes ESL20 is starting to eat batteries. To the point of a pair a week and I no longer feel confident to let it go. Apparently there is a new (to me ?) lock manufactured by Securam Extreme that has both a digital and manual operation. Bluetooth too ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWXHgrNs3Ss I'd like to replace my ESL20 with this if possible. I used to be an aircraft mechanic for 20 years so if its a moderately simple task I can DIY. Or should I just replace the ESL and be done with it ? PS Im not going straight manual. If you have a means to measure current, you should see well below 50 micro-amps in the resting state (sleep-mode). A dead battery will measure below 8 volts. If you replace batteries, and the lock works again, and your old batteries measure over 8 volts, you probably have some mechanical binding that requires all teh power of a fresh set of batteries to overcome. That's why it seems the batteries are getting drained, only fresh hot batteries have enough grunt to pull the lock open past the binding. |
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Posted: 10/24/2019 1:38:03 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MACinVA:
70% of me says RF. The remaining 30 is the doubt from my learning here, and particularly about the burglarizing of residential BF's being very uncommon, and it has me wondering if the RF will be worth the almost 2 large difference in price. Thoughts? |
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Posted: 10/24/2019 2:34:25 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Conju: What about the AC plug on the back of the BF models? |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 11/2/2019 4:50:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Hello,
My esl5 is not locking. The solenoid is sticking open. Is there a fix for this? I tried spraying lube on it. I can manually pull it down to lock it, but it won’t lock on its own. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/3/2019 3:46:03 PM EDT
[#39]
Hello,
I stumbled upon this thread while doing research on a new gun safe and was impressed with all the valuable information provided in the 50+ pages here by @TheSafeGuy and others. Thank you in advance for your contributions. I will be placing an order for a new Amsec BFII6030 this coming week and had a handful of questions I was hoping could be answered here that I am having a hard time finding good information on. 1. What would be the best material or "thing" to use between the bottom of the Safe and a concrete floor in a garage with the intention being to have the safe bolted down? It seems like a good idea to put something between the floor and safe bottom to prevent rust/corrosion from setting in over time. I've spent a good bit of time looking at all sorts of things that could be placed under the safe to accomplish this goal but I'm not sure which of these options would do more damage than good. 2. Is it possible during the order process to request an additional access hole be made in the back of the safe to allow for an Ethernet cable to pass thru into the safe? If such a request is possible would this extra hole compromise the Fire/Security rating of the safe? 3. Can anyone confirm if the mechanical dial combination option that comes with the BFII series safe is a Group2M type? I wasn't able to find any Group2M lock options on the Amsec website for the mechanical dials used. I only see the key and none key locking dials which are listed as Group2 only. I'm probably missing something though. 4. Has anyone used or is currently using the RotoBolt Doomsday lock on their safe and can comment on its reliability/build quality and general likes/dislikes compared to other options out there of a similar kind of lock? I see SecuRam has an Extreme option which looks nice but appears to lack any UL testing so I assume this alone would be an issue installing it on a safe resulting in a possible loss current UL Listing Status of said safe. Thanks |
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USA
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Posted: 11/3/2019 4:09:21 PM EDT
[#40]
I forgot to add a pic of the two ideas I was considering for something to place between the safe bottom and concrete floor which might allow for some kind of airflow to prevent rust/corrosion. I do wonder about their weight capacity though.
This guy is typically used on basement floors to allow water/air to flow under it. I'm wondering if the dimples would be squashed from the weight of the safe so may the airflow wont happen anyway? 
This guy here is a floor mat made of recycled tires and is said to be tuff as nails but it may just crush under the weight of the safe also. But given the design this may or may not be bad as long as it settles flat to prevent wobbling. I'm thinking there would be at least some airflow allowed in this case. 
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MO, USA
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Posted: 11/3/2019 4:45:52 PM EDT
[#41]
Your dealer should be able to help you out with all of your questions and concerns.
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Posted: 11/4/2019 4:40:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AFEWARS:
1. What would be the best material or "thing" to use between the bottom of the Safe and a concrete floor in a garage with the intention being to have the safe bolted down? It seems like a good idea to put something between the floor and safe bottom to prevent rust/corrosion from setting in over time. I've spent a good bit of time looking at all sorts of things that could be placed under the safe to accomplish this goal but I'm not sure which of these options would do more damage than good. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AFEWARS:
1. What would be the best material or "thing" to use between the bottom of the Safe and a concrete floor in a garage with the intention being to have the safe bolted down? It seems like a good idea to put something between the floor and safe bottom to prevent rust/corrosion from setting in over time. I've spent a good bit of time looking at all sorts of things that could be placed under the safe to accomplish this goal but I'm not sure which of these options would do more damage than good. 2. Is it possible during the order process to request an additional access hole be made in the back of the safe to allow for an Ethernet cable to pass thru into the safe? If such a request is possible would this extra hole compromise the Fire/Security rating of the safe? 3. Can anyone confirm if the mechanical dial combination option that comes with the BFII series safe is a Group2M type? I wasn't able to find any Group2M lock options on the Amsec website for the mechanical dials used. I only see the key and none key locking dials which are listed as Group2 only. I'm probably missing something though. 4. Has anyone used or is currently using the RotoBolt Doomsday lock on their safe and can comment on its reliability/build quality and general likes/dislikes compared to other options out there of a similar kind of lock? I see SecuRam has an Extreme option which looks nice but appears to lack any UL testing so I assume this alone would be an issue installing it on a safe resulting in a possible loss current UL Listing Status of said safe. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/4/2019 7:33:26 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AFEWARS:
Hello, I stumbled upon this thread while doing research on a new gun safe and was impressed with all the valuable information provided in the 50+ pages here by @TheSafeGuy and others. Thank you in advance for your contributions. I will be placing an order for a new Amsec BFII6030 this coming week and had a handful of questions I was hoping could be answered here that I am having a hard time finding good information on. 1. What would be the best material or "thing" to use between the bottom of the Safe and a concrete floor in a garage with the intention being to have the safe bolted down? It seems like a good idea to put something between the floor and safe bottom to prevent rust/corrosion from setting in over time. I've spent a good bit of time looking at all sorts of things that could be placed under the safe to accomplish this goal but I'm not sure which of these options would do more damage than good. 2. Is it possible during the order process to request an additional access hole be made in the back of the safe to allow for an Ethernet cable to pass thru into the safe? If such a request is possible would this extra hole compromise the Fire/Security rating of the safe? 3. Can anyone confirm if the mechanical dial combination option that comes with the BFII series safe is a Group2M type? I wasn't able to find any Group2M lock options on the Amsec website for the mechanical dials used. I only see the key and none key locking dials which are listed as Group2 only. I'm probably missing something though. 4. Has anyone used or is currently using the RotoBolt Doomsday lock on their safe and can comment on its reliability/build quality and general likes/dislikes compared to other options out there of a similar kind of lock? I see SecuRam has an Extreme option which looks nice but appears to lack any UL testing so I assume this alone would be an issue installing it on a safe resulting in a possible loss current UL Listing Status of said safe. Thanks |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/4/2019 7:41:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BMad316]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
As stated, we will install any lock you like, as long as it has at least a Group 2 mechanical or a Type 1 Electronic UL rating. Locks that have "redundancy" must have BOTH ratings. Some Mechanical/Electronic dual-function locks do not have both ratings, and they therefore do not qualify. Even though some companies use them, they are simply not allowed. They will get caught and reprimanded sooner or later. https://www.amsecusa.com/product/rotobolt/ |
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USA
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Posted: 11/4/2019 12:22:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy: It looks like I may have been overthinking the under safe buffer options. I'll look to take the simpler approach via smaller low profile blocks/disks of some material that wont be bothered by moisture at the anchor points. I've seen the hockey puck idea mentioned in my travels but felt they are too tall (as you mentioned) and their surface area too small for such a large heavy object. If they were 6-12" in circumference I would feel better about using them. Anyway, I'll follow a similar hybrid approach to the hockey puck idea. I shudder at the thought of drilling my own hole in the back of this shiny, new and expensive box  but appreciate the reminder that asking the factory to do it may cost me more in wait time/cost then its worth. I'll probe the dealer to do it instead since they surely already have all the fancy bits/tools on hand given the fact that they are a full lock shop also. Good to know that the hole should not compromise the fire rating given the size were dealing with for an un-terminated Ethernet cable. It would be nice if more manufacturers offered a provision for Ethernet pass-thru perhaps baked into the power receptacle option that is available.
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Posted: 11/4/2019 12:54:09 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AFEWARS:Good to know that the hole should not compromise the fire rating given the size were dealing with for an un-terminated Ethernet cable. It would be nice if more manufacturers offered a provision for Ethernet pass-thru perhaps baked into the power receptacle option that is available. There are companies that offer a complete wiring portal, with 12VAC, USB and Ethernet ports. The bad news is that they are -plastic- boxes that require a very large rectangular opening all the way thru the walls. I guess I don't have to express my concern about how that plastic mass might survive a real fire... that's a hole large enough that I would think could be a problem. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/4/2019 12:58:33 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMad316: I have the LP redundant lock on my AMSEC BFII, I’ve had it a year and a half, I’m in and out of the safe at least twice per day, no issues with either the mechanical or electronic lock (I use the electronic lock probably 10 times to every 1 use for mechanical). The little man on my left shoulder whispering in my ear keeps saying "Just get the manual Dial" and, I would, if that manual dial was a BigRed Group2M rated device instead of Group2 only. My paranoia is probably just getting the best of me though. These days with every slob in the world having an Internet connection and a Youtube stream the once closely guarded industry insider info on manipulation tactics of these locks is no longer much of a secret. I like that the Group2M locks supposedly ensure that a thief will be toying about with it for at least 2hrs before getting in so even the best of the Youtube commandos will have some work ahead of them. Obviously this means nothing if they arrive throwing all concerns to the wind and spin up a diamond blade circular saw and have their way with the body of the safe but that's surely going to make some noise in the process  .
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USA
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Posted: 11/4/2019 2:18:45 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy: You can drill that hole yourself and save a few bucks. There is no badass concrete in the BFII. It has two layers of thick mild steel, so a standard drill bit and a little patience will get the job done. There are companies that offer a complete wiring portal, with 12VAC, USB and Ethernet ports. The bad news is that they are -plastic- boxes that require a very large rectangular opening all the way thru the walls. I guess I don't have to express my concern about how that plastic mass might survive a real fire... that's a hole large enough that I would think could be a problem.
Its crazy that these companies are suggesting the need for such a large hole to use their products in order to introduce AC/COMMS into a safe when there are products from Neutrik such as these below that would do the same thing much more elegantly rather than the sledgehammer approach of cutting a gaping hole AC Power 
Ethernet Comms 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/4/2019 10:16:03 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AFEWARS: Thanks for the report @BMad316 of the RotoBolt. I'm leaning heavily in this direction myself even though I have some reservations still about its material makeup. I like that the lock is UL Listed Group1 for the digital keypad & UL Listed Group2M for manual combination dial portion. The little man on my left shoulder whispering in my ear keeps saying "Just get the manual Dial" and, I would, if that manual dial was a BigRed Group2M rated device instead of Group2 only. My paranoia is probably just getting the best of me though. These days with every slob in the world having an Internet connection and a Youtube stream the once closely guarded industry insider info on manipulation tactics of these locks is no longer much of a secret. I like that the Group2M locks supposedly ensure that a thief will be toying about with it for at least 2hrs before getting in so even the best of the Youtube commandos will have some work ahead of them. Obviously this means nothing if they arrive throwing all concerns to the wind and spin up a diamond blade circular saw and have their way with the body of the safe but that's surely going to make some noise in the process . |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 3:56:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AFEWARS:
These days with every slob in the world having an Internet connection and a Youtube stream the once closely guarded industry insider info on manipulation tactics of these locks is no longer much of a secret. I like that the Group2M locks supposedly ensure that a thief will be toying about with it for at least 2hrs before getting in so even the best of the Youtube commandos will have some work ahead of them. Obviously this means nothing if they arrive throwing all concerns to the wind and spin up a diamond blade circular saw and have their way with the body of the safe but that's surely going to make some noise in the process .If manipulation was easy, there would be a concern. BUT... it's not. Manipulation of a mechanical lock with a random unknown combination is a horribly difficult skill to master. It takes practice, like playing a musical instrument at world class levels. I taught the basics of manipulation in my certification courses for many years, and I know precisely how a combination lock works, where it's weaknesses lie and how to exploit those weaknesses. Even with that level of knowledge (not skill, but understanding), I am at a loss to manipulate a lock open in any reasonable period. Sure, I could get it open, eventually. But it is so difficult and painful, I would rather drill the safe and be done with it in a fraction of the time. So, if you are seriously worried about the average YouTuber running around burglarizing your safes, you have been terribly mislead by scare tactics that are tailored to sell you electronic locks. Yes, I said that. Manipulation is truly a dying art, with fewer and fewer real masters and advanced amateurs out there practicing the skill. In fact, I would say that as the years tick off, your mechanical lock is getting safer and safer as fewer people learn the skill well enough to use it... No, I didn't say mechanical locks are more secure than electronics, they aren't (depending on the brand). From a professional attack by a skilled and well trained technician, mechanical locks offer nowhere close to e-lock security. There are lame (offshore) imitators that have serious gaping holes they don't even recognize, but a well designed e-lock is the best option because it can't be manipulated, ever (if you consider decades of code testing as never). |
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