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Posted: 8/14/2018 11:24:27 AM EDT
[#1]
I use Trim It II. Giraud is good too.
WFT uses an end mill with 4 cutting blades. The friction is too high to hold cases by hand and will burn through a glove with a lot of cases. Trim It II uses a single carbide cutting bit and trims, chamfers, and deburrs at the same time. Giraud does this too, I think. WFT II can be used with multiple calibers by changing out the bearing that the case shoulder indexes on. |
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Posted: 8/14/2018 11:30:48 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I use Trim It II. Giraud is good too. WFT uses an end mill with 4 cutting blades. The friction is too high to hold cases by hand and will burn through a glove with a lot of cases. Trim It II uses a single carbide cutting bit and trims, chamfers, and deburrs at the same time. Giraud does this too, I think. |
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Posted: 8/14/2018 11:34:46 AM EDT
[#3]
All I mentioned can be used with a drill. A light weight LI cordless is best. Good excuse to buy one if you don't already have one.
I was up to three WFT trimmers with blisters on my fingers before I found out about the Trim It II. 
The WFT sold fast on the EE, so that was a good thing. |
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Posted: 8/14/2018 11:41:20 AM EDT
[#4]
I have been using a Lyman Universal trimmer modified to use a cordless screwdriver as the turning power source. Works great. Assembled a set of master cartridges so changing trim length is very fast. Also the case holder does not use/require individual shell holders saving s few dollars. I also use the RCBS case prep center for deburring, chamfering etc. I'm generally not in a hurry so I have the time to fiddle with things as I like.
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Posted: 8/14/2018 11:47:18 AM EDT
[#5]
I use the WFT for bulk runs like 223/6.8/300blk etc. then use the rcbs power trimmer for low volume runs for my bolt guns and other odd balls
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Posted: 8/14/2018 12:23:40 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Looking for opinions on the best case trimmer, can be hand crank or powered. Looking for repeatability/accuracy, and am willing to pay for something that is high quality and works. 
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Posted: 8/14/2018 12:55:08 PM EDT
[#7]
For accuracy on dedicated Trimmer
L.E. Wilson For versatility RCBS has many accessories ie 3 way cutter trim chamfer and deburr Forster is an option, but power option is not the best Bulk Trimmer not expensive ... cases need further work WFT II and trim chambers with Carbide cutter Bulk Trimmer that trims only ... cases need further work Dillon 1500 Works best with XL 650 or other case feeder equipped press Bulk and Consistent Consistent Power Trimmer Giraud and never look back |
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Posted: 8/14/2018 1:17:49 PM EDT
[#8]
I have a Giraud power trimmer, and it's as accurate as your dies/brass are. Once you setup your dies and trimmer for a case, it will cut them all to within .001 variance.
Keep ind mind though, with a Giraud it will highlight problems in your process. If you're not getting consistent trims (either in length, or in uniformity), it's because you've got a problem with brass, or your sizing operation. It is without a doubt the absolute fastest and most enjoyable way to trim; it's probably my favorite step in the process now. |
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Posted: 8/14/2018 2:01:04 PM EDT
[#9]
What is the intended purpose/use of the cartridges
Loading for rifles I tend to take my time for distance cartridges. The LE Wilson is what works for me. Not fast but does a good job and it's well made. For bulk .223 WFT. |
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Posted: 8/14/2018 2:03:34 PM EDT
[#10]
Not the fastest but I get excellent consistency out of my RCBS Trim mate powered trimmer....it is very very consistent and while slower then others has improved my SD on my rifle loads....I bought mine back in the late 80's, I also own their prep center, if I was buying today I would most likely buy the combo kit.. I also use a RCBS manual trim mate for neck turning brass, again I get excellent repeatable results..Both of mine use the universal head so no plates needed to hold different brass...
I do use the 3 angle cutters, once setup they are excellent for consistency(frt- case trimmer, back-neck turner)....  Attached Fileprepped cases...  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/14/2018 8:27:35 PM EDT
[#11]
Forster Classic.
Then you can spend as much as you want, power adapter, 3way cutter head, longer/shorter bases, pilots galore. I use mine for everything, but it really gets a workout cutting 9x19luger down to 9x18mak, but it doesn't really care and cuts thru them too. |
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Posted: 8/15/2018 3:45:42 PM EDT
[#12]
I've been using an original Forster case trimmer since 1992 and I've not seen enough advantage in competing designs to cause me to part with the money to switch.
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Posted: 8/15/2018 7:38:39 PM EDT
[#13]
I'm using the LE Wilson and its very consistent. I trim everything on it now, not just precision cases. The case holders make it easy to insert and remove a case with a gentle tap.
Chamfering the cases takes longer than trimming. |
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Posted: 8/15/2018 9:12:12 PM EDT
[#14]
I have the Giraud, and my process sucks because I cannot get it down to .001 variance. I use it for my blasting ammo (.223 and 300blk)
For everything else I use the Foster trimmer. once you have a case the right size it's easy to put aside and set it up quickly. It's really not a slow process compared to some others in small batch operations. I like the consistency of the chamfer and deburring I get from my Giraud compared to any other method, but for my really accurate rounds I want it to be tighter OAL. I'll have to check using my comparator on my bulk one time to see if it really is the neck, but for some of the rounds I get .001 on the neck but of course I don't have the Giraud for those calibers. |
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Posted: 8/15/2018 9:26:00 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have the Giraud, and my process sucks because I cannot get it down to .001 variance. I use it for my blasting ammo (.223 and 300blk) For everything else I use the Foster trimmer. once you have a case the right size it's easy to put aside and set it up quickly. It's really not a slow process compared to some others in small batch operations. I like the consistency of the chamfer and deburring I get from my Giraud compared to any other method, but for my really accurate rounds I want it to be tighter OAL. I'll have to check using my comparator on my bulk one time to see if it really is the neck, but for some of the rounds I get .001 on the neck but of course I don't have the Giraud for those calibers. |
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Posted: 8/15/2018 10:35:19 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have the Giraud, and my process sucks because I cannot get it down to .001 variance. I use it for my blasting ammo (.223 and 300blk) For everything else I use the Foster trimmer. once you have a case the right size it's easy to put aside and set it up quickly. It's really not a slow process compared to some others in small batch operations. I like the consistency of the chamfer and deburring I get from my Giraud compared to any other method, but for my really accurate rounds I want it to be tighter OAL. I'll have to check using my comparator on my bulk one time to see if it really is the neck, but for some of the rounds I get .001 on the neck but of course I don't have the Giraud for those calibers. Just a friendly suggestion. 
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Posted: 8/15/2018 11:19:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you can't get a consistent trim length, more than likely you're not bumping the shoulder consistently. If I had to guess you've got your die setup to cam over, and you're over sizing the case, and it's springing back to a differing length. If so, try setting it up to just bump the shoulders ~.003 and see if your trim lengths don't come out perfect. Just a friendly suggestion. |
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Posted: 8/16/2018 12:59:50 PM EDT
[#18]
I use a Wilson/Sinclair micrometer trimmer and love it. Make sure it has the Sinclair micrometer and not the Wilson. I bought the wrong one the first time and sent it back.
One thing this trimmer can do that none of the others mentioned can.. After trimming the neck to length, I spin it around and run it on the base real quick. This cleans up any bulges or irregularities on the head. |
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Posted: 8/16/2018 1:32:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I use a Wilson/Sinclair micrometer trimmer and love it. Make sure it has the Sinclair micrometer and not the Wilson. I bought the wrong one the first time and sent it back. One thing this trimmer can do that none of the others mentioned can.. After trimming the neck to length, I spin it around and run it on the base real quick. This cleans up any bulges or irregularities on the head. 
That is, you should square up the case head first, then trim to length. |
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Posted: 8/16/2018 1:41:11 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Looking for opinions on the best case trimmer, can be hand crank or powered. Looking for repeatability/accuracy, and am willing to pay for something that is high quality and works. Currently top of the list is the LE Wilson/Sinclair micrometer trimmer. It looks to me that the Wilson trimmer trims to overall length of the brass and is very accurate. Other trimmers like Giraud, are trimming measuring from the case shoulder. It seems to me that measuring from the case shoulder would give you a more consistent neck length. Is there any difference between the two methods of measuring, and is the difference so small that it is not worth worrying about? The Wilson trimmer trims the cases 'correctly' to the extent that the SAAMI spec for maximum case length is measured relative to the case head. To the extent that a few thousandths of variation in case length is irrelevant and that your brass should all be approximately the same size, trimming based on the shoulder should be adequate. There is always some room (approximately 0.010" - 0.020") beyond the max case length before the case mouth meets the end of the chamber (the safety issue which requires us to trim). If you are worried about a few mils of variation in cases length, your attention is likely misplaced. If you get to the point where a few thousandths of variation in case length is affecting your accuracy, please post pics and let's discuss this. |
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Posted: 8/19/2018 12:18:46 PM EDT
[#21]
I appreciate all of the replies, THANKS!! so far, a lot of good info to digest. Concerning the Sinclair/Wilson trimmer, do you have to full length size each time for the case holders to fit?
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Posted: 8/19/2018 12:26:35 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I appreciate all of the replies, THANKS!! so far, a lot of good info to digest. Concerning the Sinclair/Wilson trimmer, do you have to full length size each time for the case holders to fit? |
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Posted: 8/19/2018 12:36:32 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I appreciate all of the replies, THANKS!! so far, a lot of good info to digest. Concerning the Sinclair/Wilson trimmer, do you have to full length size each time for the case holders to fit? Otherwise if you trim first then size, the case will grow and you trimmed for naught. |
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Posted: 8/19/2018 1:07:04 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, trimming is always done after sizing with any trimmer. Otherwise if you trim first then size, the case will grow and you trimmed for naught. Yes, size first. But no, you don't need to full length size to use that trimmer. |
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Posted: 8/19/2018 2:26:10 PM EDT
[#25]
Yes, the full length size question was because I might try doing the bump the shoulder and neck size only. THANKS!!
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Posted: 8/21/2018 11:54:54 AM EDT
[#26]
After reading the positive comments about the Giraud, I downloaded the manual and read through it. I might have mis-understood one part, and need some clarification. The manual said you need a custom
holder if you are neck sizing only? So would I be correct in thinking that if you are fire-forming the brass, and just bump the shoulder back and neck size, the brass will not fit in the Giraud with a standard size holder and cutter head? |
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Posted: 8/21/2018 12:55:48 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
After reading the positive comments about the Giraud, I downloaded the manual and read through it. I might have mis-understood one part, and need some clarification. The manual said you need a custom holder if you are neck sizing only? So would I be correct in thinking that if you are fire-forming the brass, and just bump the shoulder back and neck size, the brass will not fit in the Giraud with a standard size holder and cutter head? Edit: I would strongly discourage just shoulder/neck sizing too; after 2-3 firings you'll be forced to FL size it anyway just to close the bolt. It's not like you're wearing out the body of the brass either, so what's the point in not sizing that specific area? Minimize movement on the shoulder/neck, and be done with it; skip all the the drama.
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Posted: 8/21/2018 1:31:47 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... if you ... just bump the shoulder back and neck size, the brass will not fit in the Giraud with a standard size holder and cutter head? If you are bumping back the shoulder at all, you are also sizing the body, maybe not a lot, but you are assured it is as small as SAAMI specs. This is not neck sizing, it is full length sizing, albeit minimal sizing. No special holder would be needed. Were you truly neck-only sizing, the body and its shoulder are untouched and there is no bumping of the shoulder. My bet - if it fits your chamber after neck-only sizing, it'll fit the standard Giraud holder.* I will have to go and check some of my fired but un-sized brass to see if it fits the holder. . . . * If you have a gross, sloppy chamber, we would not be having this discussion. I'm assuming you have a proper, SAAMI-spec chamber. |
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Posted: 8/21/2018 1:36:11 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not the fastest but I get excellent consistency out of my RCBS Trim mate powered trimmer....it is very very consistent and while slower then others has improved my SD on my rifle loads....I bought mine back in the late 80's, I also own their prep center, if I was buying today I would most likely buy the combo kit.. I also use a RCBS manual trim mate for neck turning brass, again I get excellent repeatable results..Both of mine use the universal head so no plates needed to hold different brass... I do use the 3 angle cutters, once setup they are excellent for consistency(frt- case trimmer, back-neck turner).... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/404934/IMG_1945-640252.JPG prepped cases... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/404934/IMG_1758-640255.JPG This is the only trimmer i have used and its been great. Havent noticed any major difference in lengths |
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Posted: 8/21/2018 1:48:10 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I use that set up as well except for the quick shell holder. It never seemed like it would hold as good as the lever type that comes with it. Does it hold just as strong? This is the only trimmer i have used and its been great. Havent noticed any major difference in lengths 
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Posted: 8/26/2018 2:02:03 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When a man writes "best case trimmer" and "will to pay for high quality" then the answer always is Giraud Trimmers and Annealers |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 3:30:07 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just today set up my new Giraud and cannot agree more. This thing oozes quality. I bought it specifically for trimming formed .375 Raptor brass (.308 parent case) since it requires ~.13" to be trimmed. No way you are trimming off a tenth in any other cutter without losing your mind or your fingers. The Giraud makes very short work of it and does a beautiful job of dburring and chamfering at the same time. I also picked up a .308 Winchester cutter head and case holder at the same time so I can do my .308 cases as well. Buy once, cry once. You definetly will not regret it. While the Giraud trimmer certainly meets YOUR criteria for best, it is not the best relative to the OP's criteria for what constitutes "BEST". The OP said he was, "Looking for repeatability/accuracy". These are his criteria for measuring what best meets his needs. To that end, the Wilson is best. Wilson also makes a deburring attachment for the lathe that provides an extremely uniform chamfer (depth and angle) on the interior of the case neck. The tool is available in normal and a special version for VLD bullets. |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 4:47:45 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I also could not imagine trimming 1/8" off hundreds or thousands of cases using a Wilson. While the Giraud trimmer certainly meets YOUR criteria for best, it is not the best relative to the OP's criteria for what constitutes "BEST". The OP said he was, "Looking for repeatability/accuracy". These are his criteria for measuring what best meets his needs. To that end, the Wilson is best. Wilson also makes a deburring attachment for the lathe that provides an extremely uniform chamfer (depth and angle) on the interior of the case neck. The tool is available in normal and a special version for VLD bullets. I'm sure the Wilson (and many other lathe trimmers) are great, and are very repeatable. The Giraud is also extremely repeatable; think about it... the cutter has zero lateral movement in the Giraud, so if you're getting inconsistent trim lengths, it's telling you something else in your process is screwed up (most likely your sizing operation). That has literally nothing to do with the Giraud. The Giraud is basically a comparator and a case trimmer all in one. If you're brass comes out perfect on a Wilson, but doesn't on a Giraud, you have an underlying problem that isn't related to trim length, and you're just masking the problem. Mask it with a lathe trimmer if you want, but I'd rather fix it, and then get perfectly consistent trims off a power trimmer. Assuming everything is tight on the Giraud, it's literally impossible for the giraud to cause inconsistency, it will only highlight inconsistencies you have in your reloading process. If your process is good, you'll get trims to within .0005. |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 5:05:30 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Respectfully, what makes you the arbiter of what trimmer is "the best" in this situation?
Let me start by repeating what I said above, case trim length variation is NOT a critical characteristic for (almost all) reloaders. It was the OP, not I, who gave the criteria for what's best. Most people just say, "I want the best" but don't give criteria and usually don't even know the criteria. In this instance, the OP was good enough to provide criteria. So, it is important to address those criteria not what each individual wants, needs, thinks is important. That last poster was discussing creating wildcat cartridges and needing to trim 1/8" off each case. That is NOT part of the OP's stated requirements. I have both a Giraud and a Wilson and used to have a Forster. The Wilson is as repeatable as my caliper can measure. My Giraud is not. The Forster was the worst of the three. <-- Ranking relative to the OP's criteria. The Giraud is subject to the variations in base-to-shoulder length after sizing. This variation is small but is never zero. So, am I the arbiter? Not really, I'm just addressing the OP's requirements. |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 5:05:46 PM EDT
[#35]
For meticulous, one-at-a-time case trimming, the lathe type trimmers, particularly Sinclair, Wilson, and Forster, are THE way to go. They are fairly easy to use, and once set up, you can trim cases fairly quickly. I have a very old RCBS lathe trimmer that uses collets to hold the brass. The current RCBS tool uses a universal shell holder, which should not only be a lot faster but more accurate than the collets. The Wilson system holds the case by the body (the tool pushes the case into a cylindrical holder).
For repeatability while trimming LOTS of brass, Giraud is the way to go. Doug Giraud’s tool uses a case holder that fits the shoulder of the case. You adjust the trim length based on the shoulder, so you must ensure you are sizing your cases consistently. If your sizing die is in good shape, and you use a consistent process every time, that should be pretty easy to do. I recommend Hornady’s Case Headspace Comparator kit to actually measure how far your die is moving the shoulder. It makes die adjustment much easier. Doug’s case holders use the same 7/8-14 thread that your dies use. I use Hornady’s cross-bolt lock rings on my case holders, so that once I have that holder adjusted, it stays adjusted. You can get a single cutter head and adjust the blade to whatever caliber case you’re trimming, or do what I did (since I am kinda lazy*) get a separate cutter head for different calibers. By caliber here, I mean bullet diameter. I have a cutter for .224, one for .308, and another for .311. With this setup, I just change out the cutter and the shell holder, and I’m ready to trim brass. *Not so much “avoiding work” lazy as “avoiding tedious work readjusting the cutter.” I like stuff to stay adjusted when I adjust it. |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 5:07:43 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I use Hornady’s cross-bolt lock rings on my case holders, so that once I have that holder adjusted, it stays adjusted. |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 7:41:10 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These are so effective in this role, it is a shame they are not standard equipment. Doug may not be (quite) a one-man outfit, but his business is still (aparently) run from his small shop. I don’t mind buying Hornady rings for his case holders, especially since I typically put them on all my dies anyway. He does offer “aluminum locking die rings” on his site, and they look just like Hornady rings, even though Hornady’s are steel, not aluminum... 
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Posted: 8/26/2018 10:06:15 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're right, that would be very convenient. But I think it's a matter of the size of Doug's business. Hornady's rings cost quite a bit more than conventional rings, and that means supplying them would probably cut into his bottom line by quite a bit. Doug may not be (quite) a one-man outfit, but his business is still (aparently) run from his small shop. I don't mind buying Hornady rings for his case holders, especially since I typically put them on all my dies anyway. He does offer "aluminum locking die rings" on his site, and they look just like Hornady rings, even though Hornady's are steel, not aluminum... http://www.ghporter.com/PubPics/Arfcom/Girud_Ring.jpg |
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Posted: 8/27/2018 9:05:54 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I got these with my new Giraud but can't figure out how to use them. The spammer wrench the trimmer comes with doesn't fit the rings. How to you use the ring when it's suppised to actually cinch down to hold the case holder in a precise position You adjust your case holder to where you want it, then tighten the ring to secure it in that location. Now tighten the cross bolt to “lock” the ring on the case holder where you want it. With that done, you can use an open end wrench to remove the case holder by using the flats on the lock ring. When you reinstall that case holder, you can get it to the same setting just by screwing it in and tightening it down. |
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Posted: 8/30/2018 11:38:57 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The spanner wrench isn’t for case holders. You adjust your case holder to where you want it, then tighten the ring to secure it in that location. Now tighten the cross bolt to “lock” the ring on the case holder where you want it. With that done, you can use an open end wrench to remove the case holder by using the flats on the lock ring. When you reinstall that case holder, you can get it to the same setting just by screwing it in and tightening it down. I found that when I didn't do this I would torque it down different levels and sometimes hand tighten it, etc and would get different readings. Now when I swap calibers I know I'm always going back to the same setting. |
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Posted: 8/31/2018 1:17:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Looking for opinions on the best case trimmer, can be hand crank or powered. Looking for repeatability/accuracy, |
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Posted: 8/31/2018 8:15:34 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I put a mark on the body of the trimmer housing where the shell holder screws in and a mark on the lock ring when I get it set and I always tighten the shell holder so that it matches the mark on the trimmer body when I install it. I found that when I didn't do this I would torque it down different levels and sometimes hand tighten it, etc and would get different readings. Now when I swap calibers I know I'm always going back to the same setting. |
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Posted: 8/31/2018 9:10:24 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
+10000! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I put a mark on the body of the trimmer housing where the shell holder screws in and a mark on the lock ring when I get it set and I always tighten the shell holder so that it matches the mark on the trimmer body when I install it. I found that when I didn't do this I would torque it down different levels and sometimes hand tighten it, etc and would get different readings. Now when I swap calibers I know I'm always going back to the same setting. |
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Posted: 9/1/2018 10:31:33 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm trying to picture what you mean. How about posting a pic of it up close so I can wrap my simplistic mind around it. Thanks 
(Giraud’s picture, resized for convenience.) The body of the machine has marks around the case holder’s socket (like the tick marks on a clock face). They aren’t as easy to see as I’d like, so I used a Sharpie to highlight a couple of them. I also used my Sharpie to mark my case holders where they line up on one or another of those tick marks. This way, I don’t over- or under tighten the already-adjusted case holder. I hope that helps. |
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Posted: 9/1/2018 1:03:49 PM EDT
[#45]
I do the same thing. The Sharpie wears off pretty quickly but it's so easy to refresh so it just isn't a problem. Maybe someday I'll use paint.
Marks or not, always run a case and check it before committing to a run of cases. |
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Posted: 9/1/2018 1:17:35 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.ghporter.com/PubPics/Arfcom/GiraudTrimmer.jpg (Giraud's picture, resized for convenience.) The body of the machine has marks around the case holder's socket (like the tick marks on a clock face). They aren't as easy to see as I'd like, so I used a Sharpie to highlight a couple of them. I also used my Sharpie to mark my case holders where they line up on one or another of those tick marks. This way, I don't over- or under tighten the already-adjusted case holder. I hope that helps. |
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Posted: 9/1/2018 2:47:53 PM EDT
[#47]
Giraud if you have a lot of shells,
Forster if you have fewer and are looking for best accuracy. You can always add power to a Forster if you have a lot of brass. |
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Posted: 9/1/2018 3:31:02 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I see the tick markes on the gold part but what confuses me is how you mark the shell holder. For one it goes in multiple revolutions so even if it lines up on the gold tick mark you could still be 1 rev too far in or 1 rev out, it would be especially easy to mess it up without the lock nut on there. If I can figure out a way to tighten and get the aluminum optional ring to cinch up in the exact spot i need i think that would be easier but everytime I try to use it I snug it up by hand exactly where it needs to be but when I put a little wrench to it it turns the case holder further in which changes the trim length. This thing is driving me CRAZY!!!
This stuff is not difficult. You must be over thinking it or something. Mark the die body with a Sharpie. It will leave a small mark on the top that can be aligned with the tool chassis. Keep a trimmed case as a 'master'. Use it to set the proper full turns of the die body into the trimmer. After that coarse adjustment, align the mark on the die body to the mark on the trimmer. Hold the die and snug the lock nut with a wrench. Alternatively, use the locking ring and just screw it in until it is snug. Be sure to run a check on a case every single time. |
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