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11/9/2018 9:21:38 PM
Posted: 7/8/2018 12:30:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/28/2018 9:25:17 AM EST by RaptorFuel]
BLUF: I want 2 devices for hunting/fun with a buddy. I can get one device at 50% off from FLIR/Armasight. I am seeking advice on what would fit my needs/budget.

Budget: $7000. I can stretch the budget a little if I need to but I can't go too much higher.

Use: Coyote hunting once or twice a year. My cousin works for FLIR and can bring home loaner clip-on thermals for the hunts which is why I'm not looking for thermal. I will also use the NVDs for camping, hiking, star gazing, watching wildlife. Most of the time I will have someone with me at night so I want a loaner for them.

Background: I have wanted some NVDs for a while and I am in the process of selling some guns/accessories I don't use any more so I have some play money. My cousin works for FLIR and has offered his employee discount to me. I want two devices because I find its more fun with someone. I also get the 'look' less often from my wife when I buy something expensive for 'us'. I think having good night vision would be fun as hell for our kids when they grow up enough to appreciate it.

Questions:
Would I be happy with a good filmed green OMNI VIII tube? I have only used a gen 1 DIY that I built which is too heavy to be practical. I know everyone says to get the latest and greatest but It's probably out of my budget.
Would you rather have a filmless PVS14 or a filmed green OMNI VIII binocular?
40 or 51 degree lenses on the Armasight?
What kind of tube is in the Armasight BNVD-3A? it says "IIT GenerationGen 3: "High-Performance""
MNVD51 vs PVS-14?

Options:
a. My ideal setup would be a WP filmless binocular device for myself and a PVS-14 to loan out. Or MOD3 with filmless WP ($9200).

Not in my budget.

b. MOD3 from TNVC for $7000 with OMIN VIII tubes.

This gives me a binoc setup when I'm by myself and allows me to loan out one side. Downside is when I'm loaning one out I lose the binoc functionality and no money left for mounts.

https://tnvc.com/shop/ab-nightvision-mod3-modular-goggle-l-3-omni-viii/

c. Two thin film WP PVS-14s from TNVC ($3200). ($6400 total)

This probably gives me the best tube (i can afford) but I won't have a binoc setup. Also leaves enough in the budget for helmets/mounts.

d. Armasight BNVD 3A ($4500) and a used PVS-14 (~2500). ($7000 total)

This might be the best setup. I will always have a binocular even when loaning the 14 out. Downside is the 14's quality might be lower and eats the whole budget.

http://www.armasight.com/night-vision/night-vision-goggles/armasight-bnvd-51-3a

e. Whatever you guys think of that I missed.

Option c looks the best but I really like the idea of goggles.
Link Posted: 7/8/2018 4:23:10 PM EST
Armasight uses L3 WP filmless tubes in their PVS14 FLAG. 50% off would be a heck of a deal.
Link Posted: 7/8/2018 5:04:08 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By norbs79:
Armasight uses L3 WP filmless tubes in their PVS14 FLAG. 50% off would be a heck of a deal.
View Quote
Right now I'm leaning toward a PVS-14 green thin film from TNVC on sale with the needed accessories. Then, maybe next year buying a BNVD. Either a 3A or FLAG depending on how much I can save. I would like to know what tubes are in the 3A.
Link Posted: 7/8/2018 5:07:38 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RaptorFuel:
Right now I'm leaning toward a PVS-14 green thin film from TNVC on sale with the needed accessories. Then, maybe next year buying a BNVD. Either a 3A or FLAG depending on how much I can save. I would like to know what tubes are in the 3A.
View Quote
Usually ITT Pinnacle thin filmed tubes in the 3A
Link Posted: 7/9/2018 12:14:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2018 12:14:56 AM EST by Tacosis]
I wonder if your cousin keeps his job. Seems weird. All of that about buying a pvs14?
Link Posted: 7/9/2018 3:34:09 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tacosis:
I wonder if your cousin keeps his job. Seems weird. All of that about buying a pvs14?
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Why wouldn't he? He gets a 50% employee discount.

I'm not a millionaire operator like most of ARFCOM seems to be. I want to make sure I'm getting the most for my money. Although you may have a point, I do tend to over analyze things some times.
Link Posted: 7/9/2018 6:48:05 AM EST
at 50% off, I'd want to max out the savings/value and probably buy one of the Armasight BNVD's with Pinnacle or Filmless tubes: https://www.opticsplanet.com/armasight-compact-dual-tube-night-vision-goggle-binocular.html
and then just get a dedicated Gen 2+ device to loan out.
Link Posted: 7/9/2018 7:16:34 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chosos:
at 50% off, I'd want to max out the savings/value and probably buy one of the Armasight BNVD's with Pinnacle or Filmless tubes: https://www.opticsplanet.com/armasight-compact-dual-tube-night-vision-goggle-binocular.html
and then just get a dedicated Gen 2+ device to loan out.
View Quote
This
Link Posted: 7/9/2018 7:31:18 AM EST
I like my filmless WP, but under budget constraints I wouldn't feel bad with thin filmed. MOD3 is a nifty way to get bino and mono, but with your available discount not necessarily the best choice. Seems like you could get dedicated bino and one mono cheaper.
Link Posted: 7/9/2018 10:41:31 AM EST
-50% that's a crazy discount. Like said I'd maximize that too even if that meant sacrificing something else.

About Mod3 (which I haven't personally used) the idea sounds great, but I am sure you will not want to take binos off your face once you've put them on so it kind of doesn't give you a loaner no matter if you think it does

I haven't still seen much info on the 51deg optics. Nor on the BNVD body if it's actually good or not.

One thing that's certain is the 51deg eyepieces have shorter eye relief compared to the standard 40deg. How much will they distort if used beyond the max eye relief is something that I'd be interested because it may not be the most comfortable experience having your eyelashes against the glass. Or almost.

Not sure if I remember this right, but I think they have an odd cutoff for power like maybe it was an hour and then it shuts off automatically. If I remember it right, there could be something in there that notices you are moving and don't do that auto-off via a timer. I'd be annoyed if my binos were to shut down unexpectedly.

The BNVD with filmless tubes would be something I'd go for assuming the body & optics are good. Their standard 40deg optics are good at least. Then like mentioned get a Gen2+ for a loaner later on.
Link Posted: 7/9/2018 11:01:58 AM EST
I think I'm going to order a thin film PVS14 on sale from TNVC along with a nightcap and mounts. Do a little T&E on this unit and evaluate what I want in a dual setup. If the thin film PVS exceeds my needs I will probably get the thin film BNVD, if not I will save a while longer and go with the BNVD FLAG.

I need to get my toys in while I can because we plan on having a kid in a couple years.
Link Posted: 7/10/2018 11:15:59 PM EST
Look at Ultimate Night Vision units as well, a forum sponsor. They generally have better prices and lower wait times.
Link Posted: 7/11/2018 7:29:51 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RaptorFuel:
I think I'm going to order a thin film PVS14 on sale from TNVC along with a nightcap and mounts. Do a little T&E on this unit and evaluate what I want in a dual setup. If the thin film PVS exceeds my needs I will probably get the thin film BNVD, if not I will save a while longer and go with the BNVD FLAG.

I need to get my toys in while I can because we plan on having a kid in a couple years.
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Then make sure to get an extra one for your kid as well :) Kids love NV.

Now, how about you make it a group buy for the forum and get us all 50% off ? I got an order list a mile long... I'll PM it to you as a spreadsheet... Can you take spreadsheets over 10Gb in size?

lol! Just kidding :) That's one heck of a discount.

Anyway, some advice - Work out whether you're a monocular man or a binocular man first. Find someone to help you try - and remember - Two monoculars on a bridge are a binocular, and when there's someone to share with, you only need an extra bridge and you can both go monocular.

I tried binocular once, and while I loved the depth perception, I really didn't like the weight at all. Also, I kind of like one eye un-aided so I've stayed monocular since. It's a personal thing.

David.
Link Posted: 7/19/2018 3:39:12 PM EST
If they were the same price, would you rather have a chrome filmless PVS14 or a thin film green BNVD?
Link Posted: 7/19/2018 3:54:57 PM EST
@cj7hawk my first (and only so far) night vision was a first gen I bought because of your DIY thread. I wish I could buy a bunch at half off but I can only get one. I think I'm going to start with a monocular and pick up a binocular in a few months. I figure at half off I I don't like it I can sell or trade it for more than I paid.

I ordered a chrome thin film PVS 14 from TNVC on sale but it won't be in for 8 weeks. I'm still trying to decide on the armasight one. I have it narrowed down to a thin film or filmless BNVD depending on how much I want to spend. Or maybe a WP filmless 14. I'm terrible at deciding how to spend money.
Link Posted: 7/19/2018 4:02:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RaptorFuel:
If they were the same price, would you rather have a chrome filmless PVS14 or a thin film green BNVD?
View Quote
Definitely a BNVD for me. I believe most would choose that way, but some prefer a monocular for it's benefits of being lighter in weight and having your unaided eye partially dark adapted all the time. The latter enables you to peek around the NOD as the unaided eye still sees something in the dark, easier to look through a handheld thermal, and when you flip up the monocular the time it takes for both eyes to dark adapt is very considerably faster compared to both eyes not being dark adapted at all.

Some people don't see much of a difference in depth perception with binoculars, but most do. It also feels as if you see more details though I'm not sure if that's just a feeling. For me binoculars are so much more comfortable that the choice is a no brainer even in the case the mono had a superior tube. I have not seen a top dollar tube against a regular thin film, but what people generally say is the benefits are mostly found at pitch black darkness and white phosphor being easier for long periods of use. A bino is less straining on your eyes no matter the color and my guess is a white mono is more straining than a green bino. It just feels much more natural to see depth & generally with both eyes. Uneven terrain, especially combined with unfamiliar terrain is where you are much more comfortable with binos. You see depth and can actually see the terrain shape quite precisely and don't loose footing as easily as with a mono. I'd not trust myself running in unfamiliar terrain with a mono. A simple ditch can go unnoticed with a mono, and generally seeing objects as separate from each other (bushes, tree branches, and background objects through those) is a lot harder with a mono.
Link Posted: 7/19/2018 6:03:15 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RaptorFuel:
If they were the same price, would you rather have a chrome filmless PVS14 or a thin film green BNVD?
View Quote
Thin Filmed BNVD all day long. You might not even notice the performance gains you get from going from newer Gen 3 thin film to Gen 3 filmless. Plus, you can always upgrade the tubes later on.
Link Posted: 7/19/2018 7:05:34 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By murtis:

Definitely a BNVD for me. I believe most would choose that way, but some prefer a monocular for it's benefits of being lighter in weight and having your unaided eye partially dark adapted all the time. The latter enables you to peek around the NOD as the unaided eye still sees something in the dark, easier to look through a handheld thermal, and when you flip up the monocular the time it takes for both eyes to dark adapt is very considerably faster compared to both eyes not being dark adapted at all.

Some people don't see much of a difference in depth perception with binoculars, but most do. It also feels as if you see more details though I'm not sure if that's just a feeling. For me binoculars are so much more comfortable that the choice is a no brainer even in the case the mono had a superior tube. I have not seen a top dollar tube against a regular thin film, but what people generally say is the benefits are mostly found at pitch black darkness and white phosphor being easier for long periods of use. A bino is less straining on your eyes no matter the color and my guess is a white mono is more straining than a green bino. It just feels much more natural to see depth & generally with both eyes. Uneven terrain, especially combined with unfamiliar terrain is where you are much more comfortable with binos. You see depth and can actually see the terrain shape quite precisely and don't loose footing as easily as with a mono. I'd not trust myself running in unfamiliar terrain with a mono. A simple ditch can go unnoticed with a mono, and generally seeing objects as separate from each other (bushes, tree branches, and background objects through those) is a lot harder with a mono.
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Actually, there was one major advantage other than depth perception I noted with testing a dual system over a BNVD type system.

I built a dual system with different objective lenses once, and set one with a deeper DOF and closer focus, so that one eye was superior at closer range, and the other out to infinity. The result was a greater DOF through binocular, with sharper details - I could see small thin twigs that would have stabbed me in the face and broken off at a range of 1m, and from there out, everthing was sharp. But it required two different objective lenses to fully achieve it... Still, it was superior to BNVD and Single Vision.

This isn't an easy balance to achieve, and collimating different models of monocular together is complicated, but when it works, it looks amazing.

Though if anyone else set up like this and likes it, let me know as I only tested it for around an hour or so.

David.
Link Posted: 7/25/2018 6:34:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2018 6:39:46 PM EST by RaptorFuel]
Thanks for the help everyone!!

For the BNVD, whats your preference, 51 or 40 degree FOV? I've just about decided on the BNVD FLAG but I'm not sure which FOV.

BTW, TNVC's site says the FLAG has "(U.S. Mfg: ITT/Harris Filmless Auto-Gated Green)" tubes while the BNVD A has "Gen3 Alpha (High Definition Green)" which I'm guessing is thick film since they also specify a thin film version.

ETA: With all this thinking about night vision I pulled my Gen 1 DIY project out of a deep box and started designing a nice housing for it with my new CAD skills to replace the cardboard/ductape I originally put it in.
Link Posted: 8/27/2018 7:36:17 PM EST
Would a blem WP filmless PVS14 from Nvision ($3295) be a better buy than a thin filmed WP from TNVC ($3200)?

https://nvisionoptics.com/product/pvs-14-monocular-unfilmed-l-3-iit-zone-3-blemish/
Link Posted: 8/27/2018 8:44:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2018 8:48:39 PM EST by Harlikwin]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cj7hawk:

Though if anyone else set up like this and likes it, let me know as I only tested it for around an hour or so.

David.
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Have done this duals for many years, works well. But without the lengths you went to. Set one to far, set one to near and the overall depth of field is pretty good. Unless i misunderstood what you did.
Link Posted: 8/27/2018 8:47:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2018 8:49:41 PM EST by Harlikwin]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RaptorFuel:
Would a blem WP filmless PVS14 from Nvision ($3295) be a better buy than a thin filmed WP from TNVC ($3200)?

https://nvisionoptics.com/product/pvs-14-monocular-unfilmed-l-3-iit-zone-3-blemish/
View Quote
It depends on what the blem looks like IMO. The filmless will no doubt work better in absolute looking up some dudes asshole dark conditions, but ask yourself how often thats going to be. Unless you are a nocturnal proctologist under most reasonable conditions they will perform about the same IMO...
Link Posted: 8/27/2018 9:35:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2018 9:40:10 PM EST by lilMAC25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RaptorFuel:
Would a blem WP filmless PVS14 from Nvision ($3295) be a better buy than a thin filmed WP from TNVC ($3200)?

https://nvisionoptics.com/product/pvs-14-monocular-unfilmed-l-3-iit-zone-3-blemish/
View Quote
Nope. I’d talk to TNVC and see what they can swing.

Also, if you hunt at ALL, I’d consider using the discount on a nice thermal.

Edit: missed the “BIL brings home loaner Thermal ClipOns” part.

Link Posted: 8/28/2018 1:00:49 PM EST
Everyone needs a BIL or friends like that...
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