As a preface, this is a post to ask those more knowledgeable:  Where is the legal line-in-the-sand for non-SOT unlicensed individuals when what you’re doing falls under the purview of NFA DD regulations?  Period.  In accordance with subforum rules, this IS NOT to become a tutorial or even to signal any actual intent.

OK, with that out of the way, it’s important to recognize that the production and use of binary expolosive compounds are completely legal by unlicensed persons so long as premixed explosive is not stored, transported, sold, purchased, or used for commercial purposes.  (Citation Link)  Meaning for things like metal-oxidizer binaries (flash powder) and sensitized-AN binaries (tannerite) you can posses and transport individual precursor ingredients… but they can ONLY be mixed and recreationally used on-site.  This is federal; local laws may (and probably do) vary, but a good indicator is if tannerite is restricted or not within your locality.  Do your homework.

Here’s where my question arises. The simple cases of if igniting a flash powder salute you’ve just constructed with a fuse or shooting a can of tannerite with a rifle are pretty straightforward.  But what about… more practical use cases?  For example, putting your mixture into one of those reusable flash-bang devices?  Or one of those empty demil/novelty M2 pineapple grenade things?  Does the confinement vessel or initiation methodology matter, legally speaking?  

Obviously you would still have to initiate something like one of those via plain visco or even perhaps a handmade percussion-cap fuze assembly (also filled with an allowable binary-only compound).  But regardless, if using only allowable binary compounds that get mixed onsite with the containment devices also constructed and used on-site… do these latter examples run afoul of any other regulations constituting manufacture of a DD or other items prohibited for unlicensed individuals?

And I’m going to @Ben because why not… I’m pretty sure he’s the dude with the registered spoon

I believe the few non FEL hand grenades that are in the registry are because of the binary filler. Credit to Wingnut.


As far as setting off the binary in different "containers" and when they become DDs and need to be registered. I believe they have their own guidelines on when it becomes a DD. Obviously any "container" that is of any metal/thick hard plastics/etc. can produce fragmentation and I'd imagine the ATF will see that as a DD. (flash bangs are a different story)

Flashbangs while not designed to produce frag they are still a DD. With these I believe it's because they use more than 1/4 oz of an explosive.

The guys at Ordnance lab have a few videos on the legalities of this topic. They also have a few more videos on DD legalities in their channel.
Legalities of Explosives & How Tannerite is Legal


Here is their laws and regulations book known as the "orange book".
https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/report/publication-federal-explosives-laws-and-regulations-atf-p-54007/download

So in short, yes you are be able make binary based hand grenades but obviously need to be registered. But you have to design it to use a binary filler so you can avoid their hassles. On the form 1 you state what binary you'll use for the item.

Edited to add: Not an expert in the DD world, my opinions are from what I've read over the years.

I’ll check out those links.  So to recap, you CAN avoid storage and hassles associated with typical explosives by only using allowable binary compounds, but it may still be classified a DD on the basis that…  it’s intended as a weapon or something?

Which leads us to another question: is the ATF still approving grenade-type DD’s that have the engraving on a retainable/reusable component (ie: the grenade spoon, durable flashbang body, reloadable 40mm shell casing, etc.)?

Because let’s face it… those are pretty much the only practical/interesting applications we’re talking about here.  I mean, if you just wanna make noise without needing a license/permit you can roll and blow up M80s or shoot cans of tannerite all day long without venturing into NFA territory.

how do I apply this on 40mm low velocity munitions?

Hey, if you’re going to have to NFA this thing anyways, you might as well go full retard and have a launcher.

I would start with one of those reusable 40mm reloadable casings. A few places make them and they provide a hi-lo pressure chamber thing and typically use use ramset/primers/blanks.  If allowable, this is the part I would NFA serialize as the DD ammunition.  Honestly, I think it’s the only part of the whole ammunition that COULD be engraved to meet ATF requirement (since the actual projectile portion is just paper)… so they’d have to let you engrave just the reusable part. (?)

Then I would buy or roll kraft paper (or buy plastic) driver cups that are -1/4” thick of proper diameter.  Similar to aerial firework shell, use a primed black powder time-fuse pre attached and sealed to the driver cups. All of this could be premade before going to the range without violating binary handling regulations.

Finally, your driver cups design have a front loading design that allows for easy binary filling and capping once you’re on site and can mix your filler. I imagine it would all look something like this.

1. Yes, you can avoid the hassles of storage and licensing by setting off binaries.

Per their definition, personally I'd take it as a blanket statement that if it can produce shrapnel, it can be considered a DD. But that's just how I would treat it because at the end of the day the Designer, DA, ATF, and the end user will all have different opinions on how the item was to be used, and you get to argue that in court.



Page 7, Chapter F destructive devices

As for if ATF is still approving F1 grenades and the like. Apparently, someone in Grog's forum just got his approved F1 for his XM67 below. There was also a member here who was doing a F1 grenade project about a year ago with some sort of electric fuze mechanism, I don't know what happened to that project but I can't find the thread via search. Need better keywords for a search, but I'm coming up blank.

https://azaoinc.com/shop/ols/products/m67-frag-grenade

Also, as to the "reusable" aspect of the registered item via engraving the spoon. That's a touchy subject. I don't believe you can "reuse" the registered grenade. If I remember correctly from wingnut's thread, the idea to reuse the grenade by engraving the spoon was floated around but others pretty much said it was a one time use DD.

And the last part of your post, pretty much. At the end of the day it's bragging rights and quite a collectable. It's also probably easier and cheaper to get your SOT and FEL so you can roll your own without having to pay $200 every time.

(assuming you already have an registered 40mm launcher)

Same rules as with a grenade. Design the grenade, body, fuze, and filler type (has to be binary) (as for the casing, use what the OP posted in the above post). If you want to make it into a fragmentation 40mm grenade you'd have to F1 said 40mm grenade. But remember there's health and death risks involved if you mess something up like say in the fuze mech.

Then there are spotting charges that you can add to non DD practice 40mm grenade. Like in the below video. It provides a visual and audible report of impact without the round being classified as a DD. Arf member did the project and so far is the coolest "bang" for your buck with 40mm. I can see how just launching chalk can get old.

Link to "Project boom" thread.




reloadableshells.com is another website to know if you own a 40mm.

Your user name is fitting for this!

Chemistry was my worst subject in school, but it seems the hardest part practically and getting a stamp approved would be the primary explosive used to set off the main charge (binary).

Someone should form 1 and claymore roomba or a tannerite filled flamingo, spec'd to be detonated by a rifle shot.

Depending on your binary, you can use something so simple like black powder to something more "sophisticated".

The live claymore roomba has been done by the Ordnance lab guys. lol

Yea, but they have the kings permission to do whatever they want. Having the ATF approve a stamp for a claymore roomba for a civi would be lulz.

Yes, you avoid needing an FEL by virtue of using binary and not storing/transporting it once combined.
For DD/stamp, however, the NFA (26 USC Ch.53) definition for Destructive Device lists "grenade" as one of the meanings of a DD.  It however does not further define grenade, so it would be up to interpretations of those involved in a prosecution.  But almost certainly anything we would build to suit your intent of owning a grenade, i.e. having a "practical effect", would qualify as such, whether thrown or launched.  So for a binary explosive "practical" grenade, stamp required, FEL not required.
See NFA definition of DD: 26 USC Ch.53 § 5845 (f)

Hit character limit, so posting the rest in the next post.

Cont'd
For "showy effect" however, there's more leeway.  Not of much interest regarding a hand grenade, but for 40mm there's fun to be had.
The key factor for 40mm ammo crossing into DD is 1/4oz of explosive, whereupon it proceeds into the linked DD definition's meaning of "missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce".
So you can make/use a 40mm explosive projectile without a FEL nor stamp, if you use binary and stay under 1/4oz.
Of course you can go over 1/4oz with a stamp, opening the door back up to making it into an actual grenade round or just for larger showy effects.

And yes, ATF will approve serialization of spoons/cases per a reliable source who has done this recently.  I hope to submit at least one such stamp of my own in the next month or so.