So... half of everyone suggests to soak those old milsurp parts in mineral spirits. Especially if there's rust.

To be fair, most recommend Kroil first.

But I soaked blued Japanese parts in mineral spirits. There was active rust and I believe soaking was best. Most people say 1-2 days of soaking. Well, even though I left them in much longer than that, I still say it's bad overall.

I soaked the parts, probably just over a week. It faded the bluing! This was a Japanese Type 44, their Cavalry Carbine! It cost $1000. I probably overpaid, but don't care.

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Point is, mineral spirits does remove bluing. Even if you only leave parts in it for a day or two, it will likely still fade (remove) the bluing some. In two weeks or less, the bluing will likely be totally removed!!!

Pretty much everything we've heard recommended ends up to actually be destructive on the old gun. Either for the steel, or the wood. Usually short term, but sometimes long term.

Mineral spirits - has benzene, removes bluing, don't use

Boiled linseed oil - has solvents to evaporate, will dry but will darken wood some. I still will use this though.

Muphey's Oil Soap - BAD, it eventually sweats stuff that corrodes the steel.

Acetone - can complete strip wood stock

Acetone and whiting (chalk/limestone) - can result in what looks like a stripped stock

citrus stripper - can totally strip stock

oven cleaners - will completely strip stock. Will badly DAMAGE the wood microscopically. Says a 'wood institute' I'll call it.

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Point is... I have either found credible info that says most recommended things or bad, or badly hurt the value on my own stuff. I haven't really tested Kroil yet, but...

Use Kroil to clean.

Use Vulpex liquid soap (Museum soap! everything from wood to paper and feathers!) for the wood

Supposedly Kroil is OK on the bluing, steel, etc. Is on the way.

Use Renaissance wax for at the least wood. Supposedly works on steel I think.

Use RIG grease on metal parts.

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I'm not sure of the RIG (haven't used YET), or the Kroil for sure, but the ONLY OPTIONS I haven't found solid evidence against or disproven myself.

wow, im sorry someone gave you that info! Not good! Kroil is fine on steel, Renaissance wax is fine on steel (almost every firearm museum uses it on steel). I used manage a gunsmith shop in south Louisiana that specialized in antique firearm restoration and preservation among other major jobs and I learned all my techniques from the largest Civil War Carbine collector in the country. I use the dry spick & span that comes in the box of flakes (do not eat with or without milk) and mix the solution in a heated bluing tank (do not boil, just hot enough so its almost uncomfortable to touch) scrub, 0000 steel wool, soft wire wheel (this is where you can mess up the finish if you dont know what your doing). Rinse in clean water and coat every part with a thick coating of RIG and let sit for at least 1hr (some old timers let sit overnight) and wipe clean and reassemble. As for the wood, wipe clean with a wood furniture conditioner like Lemon-shine. Coat the complete firearm in Renaissance wax and buff out. This info is not what Bubba does in the garage, when I learned this I was managing a shop doing warranty work for the Remington Outdoors companies, Browning and Winchester. I'm only telling you that to legitimize the process, not myself. I hope this helps!

Usually the threads I make when I'm buzzed go in GD. Lol.

Thanks for the replies.

Ya, seems there's mostly bad info out there. Most of the most used methods and products.

Perfect example... there's some debate over 'lemon' furniture cleaners as not many have any lemon (grass?) oil actually in them, or too many extra additives that are probably bad. I've heard there are a few that are OK though. Haven't looked into it too far, but will. What worries me about that though is what it does long term, like what MOS does when it sweats corrosive stuff. Sounds less abrasive than BLO cut with mineral spirits, which darkens over time as well.

When I got the Type 44, it was decently well taken care of... until you took it down further than the last person was willing/knew how to go. Active rust under the extractor, of all things, and in the butt plate assembly and bayonet housing. I wanted to gently get rid of any active rust (red, ferrous oxide IIRC). I looked into steaming and boiling to convert any and all light surface rusting, then gently card. Didn't want to try that process first time ever on a matching, mummed, Type 44.

After the mineral spirits, I lightly scrubbed with a brass brush (damn near the softest metal for a brush I could find). I also have bronze wool I had planned to use, before I found out it was harder than brass, as I didn't want to risk missed steel fuzzies starting rust on the gun, and wanted to use the more gentle of the wools.

Strange... I've had a bucket full of cosmoline-packed Sten mags, blued of course, covered in mineral spirits for 15+ years now. Whenever I take them out, the cosmoline comes right off but they certainly remain blued.

Exactly! When I recommend non-firearm specific products, I always recommend a specific brand and type and only what I personally have used. Working at different warranty centers for different firearm manufacturers I have seen WAY too much of the "well bubba said I can lubricate with WD40, and Boudreaux said that the Vinegar will remove rust".. Both obviously being very bad ideas, but these are true examples of what I have seen. Also on the Oven Cleaner note, it contains Lye which will strip anodizing on aluminum. (Yes, MilSpec Hard Coat anodizing) I use it over vinyl stencils to remove anodizing on AR15 lowers before I Electro Chemical Etch them. I may write up a tutorial on that later on. I have also restored approximately 600 flood guns (+-50) after the "Great flood of 2016" in Louisiana (In which I was unfortunate enough to lose my Home), I coated every firearm that came through the door with a product called HillCo lube. It was originally designed to lubricate and displace moisture in Submarine parts that are susceptible to salt water contact. It is hands down the best product I have ever used on a firearm as a CLP. It is synthetic safe, penetrates steel and is 100% bluing safe, cerakote and similar safe, and is even safe on most wood finishes (I just wipe down the wood, I dont soak or drench it). I also find that it is the only thing that will protect steel firearms for duck hunters hunting in brackish water. There are several LE agencies in south Louisiana that currently use it exclusively on their duty weapons.

I'm pretty much limiting myself in the future to...

brief exposure to kroil, degrease, and final coat and wipe off of RIG for all steel parts
vulpex soap (only if it really needs cleaning) and Ren wax for stocks

I was using BLO, and even BLO cut with min spirits, to moisturize the wood, but I've stopped until I find out why that's supposedly bad now...

Bad how? And so far, best I can tell, everything is bad.

With all due respect, im assuming by BLO yall are referring to boiled linseed oil. Its not bad, I don't know how you're using it but most mil stocks were finished with Linseed. I have underlined my responses. Some of what you have posted is just as bad as the bad info you received from elsewhere.
Let me clear some things up,
"Mineral spirits - has benzene, removes bluing, don't use -Never had an issue with variations of this in parts washers, but there is no place for the pure Mineral Spirits on the gun cleaning bench. Barsol is fine.(I see your military, most arms rooms have a version of mineral spirits (Barsol) in the parts cleaner. I know mine did, and every other one on Ft. Bragg and Ft. Leonardwood)
Boiled linseed oil - has solvents to evaporate, will dry but will darken wood some. I still will use this though. -Will not darken wood, will restore wood to original oil finish. If it darkens your wood, your wood was missing finish or dehydrated.
Muphey's Oil Soap - BAD, it eventually sweats stuff that corrodes the steel. -Potassium Hydroxide is corrosive
Acetone - can complete strip wood stock -Yea, but its safe on steel and does a great job displacing water after scrubbing gun parts or after ultrasonic cleaning. Also good for stripped stocks to get oil stains out.

(CONTINUED BELOW)

Acetone and whiting (chalk/limestone) - can result in what looks like a stripped stock -its essentially a stripped stock.. do not pass go, do not collect $200 but move to the Citri strip and start over
citrus stripper - can totally strip stock -WILL totally strip stock... its in the name
oven cleaners - will completely strip stock. Will badly DAMAGE the wood microscopically. Says a 'wood institute' I'll call it. -It has Lye in it.. why was this on the gun cleaning bench?
Point is... I have either found credible info that says most recommended things or bad, or badly hurt the value on my own stuff. I haven't really tested Kroil yet, but... -What? you're drinkin the wroooong watttter
Use Kroil to clean. -Kroil is great on metal for removing rust. There are better things out there for removing other stuff
Supposedly Kroil is OK on the bluing, steel, etc. Is on the way. -Yup, its fine
Use Renaissance wax for at the least wood. Supposedly works on steel I think. -Works on everything.. all those fancy schmancy guns in the museums are covered in it! Even GW pistols!
Use RIG grease on metal parts. -yup, among many many other greases and gun oils"
To say everything is bad is just silly, dont be a silly gun goose. Knowing is half the battle. GGGGIIIIII JOOOOOOEEEEE!
This thread was on the verge of ridiculous information so I had to clear stuff up a bit. I do jest at times and I mean no offense of course and I wish you the best of luck! "I said with all due respect, you cant get angry! Its in the Geneva convention!"

Let me clear up the whole stock finish stuff... Everything you need to know about finishing stocks if you really want to know the proper way to treat wood stocks, read up. These are very similar to how I do mine on everything from old Mossberg 22s up to Browning Superposed. We can talk about it all day, but the provided link is pretty much the authority on finishing wood stocks.

Appears I need to clear something up.

This is all mostly in the context of CONSERVATION, not restoration work.

Also, I didn't try every product I mentioned. I saw it recommended often, and then researched it a bunch. Like oven cleaner, citristrip, whiting, MS on wood, etc.

When any of the bad info out there will immediately devalue the crap out of your collector piece. My goal isn't $$$ or even originality-at-all-costs, just taking care of the stuff so that it's no worse off (or is 'better') than when I got it. By better, that could less oil soaked areas in the stock, rust dissolved, future rust prevented, actual grime cleaned off (to a point), etc etc.

I know any of those 'better' things can devalue an item to some, but I don't cater to anyone and everyone.

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There's still the problem of... mineral spirits faded the crap out of bluing on two different rifles' parts. How much they faded coincided with how long they soaked. I've heard a lot that it won't hurt bluing, but yet there it is.

The problem is that "mineral spirits' is not a reliable label for what is in the container.

It used to be mostly a mix using 'Stoddard solvents' (a particular condensation point mix from cracking and purifying crude oil).

It is a VOC though. Volatile Organic Compound.
It can contribute to the formation of 'ground level' ozone when the sun 'cooks' it in the air.

It was also available in a 'deodorized' form that further processed it to remove the 'smelly' aliphatic compounds in the mix.
It was then more expensive but contained fewer 'contaminants.'

Acetone is NOT a VOC so it has now been used in solvents labeled 'paint thinner.'

It is a significantly 'hotter' solvent.

Ok... really not sure how that helps, and I knew the 'sodard's solvent' (sp) thing from wiki.

Acetone doesn't really do shit on rust. Of anything, would make it worse since it is a strong degreaser. I have acetone but carb cleaner is so much easier...

I don't have enough blued stuff to ruin to want to test all other brands of mineral spirits, but... if it contains solvents, and disolves rust, I can't see why it wouldn't effect bluing (even if only very slowly).

So I won't be using it any more, since I can't soak stuff in it.

From now on, just using a nylon or maybe brass brushing (on pitted rust) with Kroil.

It was black, no hint of red, smooth, and nice. The soaking was sort of a 'I work 12.5 hour shifts and not much sleeping time, the parts will be fine and it'll get any red rust in the crannies' thing.

Was on two different guns as well.

Soak some of your blued parts in MS for a week and see what happens, since there's no way...

lol

Luckily it makes perfect sense that something that will disolve red rust (ferrous oxide) quickly, will also penetrate and disolve black rust (iron oxide), though at a much slower rate.

And the old style of mineral spirits did nothing for rust.

Kerosene and a number of other solvents ARE effective at rust.

Pull an MSDS and see what was in the cr@p you used.

I wonder if the acidity of the acetone increases as the volatiles  evaporate off. Concentration.

There totally was active rust, but it was fresh and bright red for the most part. That was down in the nooks and crannies though.

And on the Type 44, in things the previous owner didn't know how or wasn't willing to disassemble. The special buttstock assembly held in by wood screws, which I'd say he wasn't willing. Then under the extractor, which he must not have known how to take off. Then a little bit of red in the lug locking area at the breach, but that might have been old grease.

Same on the second Type 38 carbine. Nooks and crannies only.

My first Type 38 carbine was from Liberty Tree Collectors and was already nicely cleaned.

Also... for the acetone... I'll agree it could be a culprit. I found out what acids do when I was playing with actual rust removers and vinegars.

Something the coworker mentioned... I think he called out a type of alcohol as a culprit, sort of. Said he knew a guy that would always wipe one part of guns with it and the bluing in the spot was removed over time. On this one... I don't remember the details. It was a short conversation and my mind was preoccupied with the parts soaking in MS and the new info.

But I think that may have also been because of the benzene, and he was giving proof on it. Not sure.

Not likely.
Acetone is not a mixture but a single compound.
(CH3)2CO
systematic name: propanone

It is also usually closer to 'pure' than many other solvents.
They often are mixtures of various different compounds.

produced directly or indirectly from propylene

A final thought...

I'm not sure what parts are rust blued and which ones are fire blued. I didn't think the bolt handles were fire blued though... but if so, could be a major factor?

That, or my mineral spirits has something extra in it...

Any acid will eat bluing though, so if it's acidic at all, there's to be the answer.

Acetone is normally very close to a perfect 7.0 pH.

Other compounds added to it could alter the pH though.

It is not hard (or expensive) to get some test strips.
They are usually pretty good.
If you want actual Red and Blue litmus test strips they are very accurate and sensitive.

pH strips are NOT as 'good' but better ones contain a set of litmus patches also.

The pH strips are a sort of course measuring strip that covers a wider range.
Litmus (rad & blue) are simple acid/base strips.

Could you just boil the small parts to convert the rust spots to browne and then just card and oil them? (or continue bluing darker)

I just rust blued a barrel and the process is straight forward, boil for 20 minutes or steam for 10 and the rust becomes a black velvet.

I've been thinking about test strips. That said, Kroil has been working so well that I'm not sure I care to use MS.

That said... the Japs figured out how to make a breach area that you just can't reach with a brush to scrub. Would be nice to be able to soak it.

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For boiling... I'd actually really like to do that. I saw the video from C&Rsenal (Anvil) about that and I thought it was probably the best way possible.

I researched the crap out of bluing, that, and other stuff. I would like to, even needing to buy some stuff to get started. But... I'm mostly living in a 1bd apartment, most of my stuff is at the parents' house, and I hardly get there. I'm just not well setup currently for boiling/steaming.

For small parts, I could and have on a test part. Results were poor though... though I think I know why.

Ya... no dice.

I do a lot of degreasing. Usually degrease before using solvents to clean, as carb cleaner flushes all old oil and grease better. Also after using solvents, since those can be corrosive long term, and good prep for fresh oil or grease.

Definitely wasn't just dry.

Was it cold blue?

Many of those are nothing like hot blue and are easily damaged by any number of solvents.

Some can be removed with regular gun cleaning chemicals (like Hoppe's#9).

No, the Type 38, carbine, and 44 were hot or salt blued, as I understand it.

As for the possibility the specific rifle I let the parts of sit in MS way too long being cold blued to help it sell better... MAYBE.

The only way to tell is to soak parts, and I don't have any to test this with right now.

Yea mineral spirits took stuff off that was failing/ failed.

You think Kroil would  do anything differntly?

It's 60-90% mineral spirits...

Check the MSDS. http://kanolabs.com/MSDS2013/KroilLiquid2013.pdf

Severely Hydrotreated Petroleum Distillates
Light Petroleum Distillates

Wiki on the names of mineral spirits.
"White spirit or mineral spirits, also known as mineral turpentine, turpentine substitute, petroleum spirits, solvent naphtha, Varsol, Stoddard solvent, or, generically, "paint thinner", is a petroleum-derived clear liquid"

Guess what hoppes is?
Mineral spirits.
Guess what WD-40 is?
Mineral spirits.

Age and lack of care removed your bluing, mineral spirits just uncovered it.

Actually, I've now left a FAR worse rifle's parts doused in Kroil, and it didn't have anything like the effects of leaving soaking in MS.

I also left a Type 94, broken almost all the way down, doused in Kroils as well, and no bad effects.

ETA: I don't think it's simply a heavier weight distill of crude than Kerosene... I think it's that Benz... w/e in it, probably.

But I've also been told most MS's don't have that in them any more. But I don't know.

ETA: Hoppes is mostly kerosene.... I know huge difference, but still.

ETA, again: I know what passive rust/iron oxide looks like. I have a Type 94 with that exact issue on the slide. Makes an amazing example look like crap, just with some black frosting on the slide. Needs to be boiled and carded.