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Posted: 7/30/2018 6:45:52 PM EST
When you think the enemy may have NV capability do you still aim with laser or use RDS ? What exactly is passive aiming? I would imagine once the fire fight breaks out you could use laser like white light as cutting it on and off and moving. Educate me.
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 9:12:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2018 11:02:15 PM EST by MunnyShot]
It all depends on how many particulates are in the air and how powerful your laser is. Generally on a clear night you will not be able to see a 0.7 mw laser bean so tracing it back to where it's coming from will be more difficult. Just keep in mind depending on your position and your target you can see the laser light up from the front even on 0.7mw lasers. As for when should you use your RDS in a no light situation it's the best way to get off the first shot, but depending on your muzzle device or use of a can will determine how well you'll stay concealed. Passive arming is not putting out any visual signature.
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 6:26:39 AM EST
Thanks,... the more you know.
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 9:09:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2018 9:10:08 AM EST by tlandoe07]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MunnyShot:
It all depends on how many particulates are in the air and how powerful your laser is. Generally on a clear night you will not be able to see a 0.7 mw laser bean so tracing it back to where it's coming from will be more difficult. Just keep in mind depending on your position and your target you can see the laser light up from the front even on 0.7mw lasers. As for when should you use your RDS in a no light situation it's the best way to get off the first shot, but depending on your muzzle device or use of a can will determine how well you'll stay concealed. Passive arming is not putting out any visual signature.
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Our .mil IR lasers go up to the 45mW range and some even higher than that. You can absolutely see the beam when it’s on high, regardless of fog and particulate matter in the air. It almost looks like a lightsaber coming out of your gun, and using an IR illuminator exacerbates this effect.

For military applications, IR light is treated with the same discipline as white light. If the situation calls for it, it’s not uncommon to use the RDS, that’s why we have NVG compatible ones. In fact, I believe all the Eotechs and Aimpoints circulating the DOD are NV compatible.

If you’ve ever wondered why you always seem to see Eotechs on risers on SOPMOD rifles, this is why.
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 9:15:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By alacop:
When you think the enemy may have NV capability do you still aim with laser or use RDS ? What exactly is passive aiming? I would imagine once the fire fight breaks out you could use laser like white light as cutting it on and off and moving. Educate me.
View Quote
Near-peer threats, and even insurgent threads, have been known to resource means of fighting at night more effectively than we generally would expect. There is a real security concern with night vision and in fact it’s commonly been employed by ISIS and other terrorist groups against coalition forces. Most, if not all of it, is misappropriated US equipment.

This is why ITAR, even though we scoff at it sometimes, is no joke
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 6:46:18 PM EST
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Originally Posted By tlandoe07:

Near-peer threats, and even insurgent threads, have been known to resource means of fighting at night more effectively than we generally would expect. There is a real security concern with night vision and in fact it’s commonly been employed by ISIS and other terrorist groups against coalition forces. Most, if not all of it, is misappropriated US equipment.

This is why ITAR, even though we scoff at it sometimes, is no joke
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ITAR makes sense for NV and comms equipment; it shouldn't be sold overseas, to anyone, since they're two of the most important advantages we have over other military forces. I don't foresee anyone taking a NVD apart and recreating a working one, though.
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 8:33:07 PM EST
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Originally Posted By rb889:

ITAR makes sense for NV and comms equipment; it shouldn't be sold overseas, to anyone, since they're two of the most important advantages we have over other military forces. I don't foresee anyone taking a NVD apart and recreating a working one, though.
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I see restricted IR lasers and night vision being listed on tacswap and Facebook multiple times a week from users in Pakistan and other surrounding areas. Just as easily as they can try to re-import to the US, they can sell it to local warlords in Afghanistan or elsewhere. Just the other day, some Abdul guy had a brand new restricted DBAL-A3 that clearly said right on it “DO NOT SELL OR TRANSFER OUTSIDE OF THE DOD”. It had the -10, all the BII in the original plastic bags, and the Black MOLLE case. Our equipment finds its way into the wrongs hands more frequently than you would think.
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 11:22:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2018 11:36:20 PM EST by TNVC_Augee]
Link Posted: 8/1/2018 7:53:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/1/2018 8:08:55 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:
What engagement techniques to use depends on a lot of different factors besides simply whether or not the enemy has NV technology—even cell phones and camcorders can sometimes detect IR emissions, you don’t need to have sophisticated Gen. 3 devices simply to know that your enemy is coming if they’re using active IR, but in doing so, you’ve denied them the element of surprise.

Just like some situations may dictate staying covert and using NV after the shooting has started while others dictate switching to white light, it depends a lot on the specifics of the situation, and is not a binary that you can easily say x = active, y = passive.

Moreover, you may be in a situation where some members would go active, while others might remain passive, e.g., you may want to conceal your numbers or maintain certain undetected positions.

One thing to remember in any team based context, but especially a military one is that not everyone is an “assaulter,” the success of the whole enchilada depends on a number of mutually supporting functions that may use differing equipment and engagement techniques.

While vitally important, weapons manipulation and engagement techniques are not “tactics,” and are more a matter of individual competencies that you need before progressing to actual tactics and maneuver, but the particular way you execute them is largely irrelevant to success compared to proper application and integration of warfighting functions, fundamentals and principles of operations and tactical tasks, fires planning, and a whole host of other elements of combat operations.

“TTP”s are Tactics, Techiques, and Procedures—most of what we talk about on open forums are techniques and procedures if that, much of it is raw hardware comparison.

Finally, assuming that the enemy has lesser capabilities than they do, especially when such things are easily available commercially is a sadly common intelligence mistake that can get people and units in to a lot of trouble. A well worn truism: “most of the dumb ones are already dead.”

~Augee
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Looks like our boy Augee here has read ADP 3-0. I now have reached a whole new level of respect for you, my friend.
Link Posted: 8/4/2018 2:39:34 AM EST
Most units do not conduct realistic training that take this into consideration. Damn few really train as if insurgents have NVD capability, and even fewer (but this is changing) train as if fighting a near peer. Most live fires look like EDM light shows under NVDs.

Smart guys like you (seriously), think about it, and a few personally implement IR light discipline but outside of elite units where there are more folks per population that possess common sense they are few and far between.

Most RDS (Aimpoint Comp M2/M4) have been replaced by ACOG TA-31s those aren't NVD compatible, they aren't meant to be they bloom bad and can damage a tube.

It is possible to use a TA-31 with both eyes open, thats why 14s are commonly (and should be) worn over the non-dominant eye. You can superimpose the chevron over the target you see with your opposite/NVD eye; it's not the taught/book method but it does work.

The M4 firing tables for day fire require 36/40 or higher for expert, during night fire it's a pass or fail event with the minimum passing score being 17/40. It's possible to shoot equally as well at night as during the day but it takes more PMI, time with the equipment and ammo. The scores required to pass demonstrate how much commitment the average unit has to being able to shoot at night and it isn't great.
Link Posted: 8/4/2018 6:52:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/4/2018 7:05:17 PM EST by murtis]
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Originally Posted By tlandoe07:

I see restricted IR lasers and night vision being listed on tacswap and Facebook multiple times a week from users in Pakistan and other surrounding areas. Just as easily as they can try to re-import to the US, they can sell it to local warlords in Afghanistan or elsewhere. Just the other day, some Abdul guy had a brand new restricted DBAL-A3 that clearly said right on it “DO NOT SELL OR TRANSFER OUTSIDE OF THE DOD”. It had the -10, all the BII in the original plastic bags, and the Black MOLLE case. Our equipment finds its way into the wrongs hands more frequently than you would think.
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Sorry to continue off-topic, but have to mention that ITAR in regards to night vision gives only a slight advantage to US and as I see it the slight bit being the pricing. For example, equivalent ITAR free NODs and lasers cost more if comparing new prices directly. But you don't need the greatest mil-spec INTENS in a EU made gucci housing with a premium price tag (note the last sentence, not for sale in the US), but a Russian Gen2+ in a Russian/Chinese housing which you can get three for the price of one and give roughly the same advantage. Also freely available to most of the world.

In fact there's more tube & housing manufacturers outside of the US than inside. Not in terms of units made per year though.

It's more a question of resources instead of availability. People don't need US gear. Those too can be sometimes priced competitively, which probably means someone is losing money but not the one selling. In some cases it's US who paid for the gear for someone and then it "gets lost".

Not saying that selling restricted items to bad guys is okay, but saying ITAR is not the thing directly giving US an advantage in night vision. Resources & training are high on the list if you ask me. Even many EU countries cannot afford to train with NODs anywhere near on the level that happens in the US. Many don't even get to see what a night vision scope is. Nor thermal.
Link Posted: 8/4/2018 7:50:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By alacop:
When you think the enemy may have NV capability do you still aim with laser or use RDS ? What exactly is passive aiming? I would imagine once the fire fight breaks out you could use laser like white light as cutting it on and off and moving. Educate me.
View Quote
Based on your user handle, I think I know what you're asking. And I think it's a very prescient area of consideration.

I too would love to hear more on the topic.

But I bet we aren't going to see many actionable answers on this most open forum.
Link Posted: 8/5/2018 12:13:23 AM EST
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Originally Posted By M0244:
Most units do not conduct realistic training that take this into consideration. Damn few really train as if insurgents have NVD capability, and even fewer (but this is changing) train as if fighting a near peer. Most live fires look like EDM light shows under NVDs.

Smart guys like you (seriously), think about it, and a few personally implement IR light discipline but outside of elite units where there are more folks per population that possess common sense they are few and far between.

Most RDS (Aimpoint Comp M2/M4) have been replaced by ACOG TA-31s those aren't NVD compatible, they aren't meant to be they bloom bad and can damage a tube.

It is possible to use a TA-31 with both eyes open, thats why 14s are commonly (and should be) worn over the non-dominant eye. You can superimpose the chevron over the target you see with your opposite/NVD eye; it's not the taught/book method but it does work.

The M4 firing tables for day fire require 36/40 or higher for expert, during night fire it's a pass or fail event with the minimum passing score being 17/40. It's possible to shoot equally as well at night as during the day but it takes more PMI, time with the equipment and ammo. The scores required to pass demonstrate how much commitment the average unit has to being able to shoot at night and it isn't great.
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I’m not sure where you get the idea that Comp M4s are being replaced by ACOGs. The latest approved MTOE for the unit I just left at Bragg had a ratio of approximately 3.4:1 CCO:ACOG. That was for FY19, and FY18 had four less CCOs and one less ACOG. When I managed small arms maintenance for my brigade, I had numerous CCOs that needed to be sent for repair under warranty and Aimpoint said don’t sweat it, they just shipped over 50,000 sights under the IDIQ contract and we could expect to be fielded new ones faster than we could get ours returned from warranty repair.

In any case OP, it’s best practice to regard IR the same you would white light and to use your RDS as much as possible over your laser if light discipline is a consideration, which it should be. I agree with the others, the military has lost its tactical proficiency in fighting threats that have similar capaibilities and if we don’t go back to some of our old TTPs from pre-GWOT, there may be costly consequences.
Link Posted: 8/5/2018 6:43:43 AM EST
My husband has been on this site for years and just passed away yesterday. Can anyone explain the cost of ammo? I'm so lost without him but he left me ammo to survive yet I don't know the value and will probably get ripped off.
Link Posted: 8/5/2018 8:32:50 AM EST
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Originally Posted By chrome1:
My husband has been on this site for years and just passed away yesterday. Can anyone explain the cost of ammo? I'm so lost without him but he left me ammo to survive yet I don't know the value and will probably get ripped off.
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My condolences on your loss.

A moderator can move your question to team so you can get answers and help from the sites members, some who may have known your Husband.

You can look up the current price of the ammo you have online or have a friend look it up for you. Then you can post the ammo for sale on the Equipment Exchange if you are looking to sell it.

You won't get full retail but you should get close. Getting ripped off is up to you. Don't let anyone pressure you to sell. Get more than one opinion and don't be afraid to continue to ask for help.

Good Luck.
Link Posted: 8/5/2018 8:54:09 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chrome1:
My husband has been on this site for years and just passed away yesterday. Can anyone explain the cost of ammo? I'm so lost without him but he left me ammo to survive yet I don't know the value and will probably get ripped off.
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It depends on what caliber ammo, brand, and quantity. If you can provide some of those details we can certainly help you out with an honest value. I’m very sorry to hear about your loss.
Link Posted: 8/6/2018 9:57:51 AM EST
Holy derailed.
Link Posted: 8/7/2018 12:22:06 AM EST
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Originally Posted By M0244:
Most units do not conduct realistic training that take this into consideration. Damn few really train as if insurgents have NVD capability, and even fewer (but this is changing) train as if fighting a near peer. Most live fires look like EDM light shows under NVDs.

Smart guys like you (seriously), think about it, and a few personally implement IR light discipline but outside of elite units where there are more folks per population that possess common sense they are few and far between.

Most RDS (Aimpoint Comp M2/M4) have been replaced by ACOG TA-31s those aren't NVD compatible, they aren't meant to be they bloom bad and can damage a tube.

It is possible to use a TA-31 with both eyes open, thats why 14s are commonly (and should be) worn over the non-dominant eye. You can superimpose the chevron over the target you see with your opposite/NVD eye; it's not the taught/book method but it does work.

The M4 firing tables for day fire require 36/40 or higher for expert, during night fire it's a pass or fail event with the minimum passing score being 17/40. It's possible to shoot equally as well at night as during the day but it takes more PMI, time with the equipment and ammo. The scores required to pass demonstrate how much commitment the average unit has to being able to shoot at night and it isn't great.
View Quote
Sadly you have hit the nail on the head with your entire post. I totally agree, we don't stress night fire or quality shooting enough.
Link Posted: 8/7/2018 6:48:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/7/2018 11:45:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/7/2018 12:02:09 PM EST
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Originally Posted By high_order1:
Based on your user handle, I think I know what you're asking. And I think it's a very prescient area of consideration.

I too would love to hear more on the topic.

But I bet we aren't going to see many actionable answers on this most open forum.
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you shouldn't, and that's a good thing
Link Posted: 8/15/2018 9:43:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/15/2018 10:39:50 PM EST by SigOwner_P229]
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Originally Posted By tlandoe07:

You can absolutely see the beam when it’s on high, regardless of fog and particulate matter in the air. It almost looks like a lightsaber coming out of your gun,
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This isn't true...

Like he said, it depends on particulate matter in the air. I've been in a FR with Class 4 lasers (over 500 mW) and with no particulate matter in the air you absolutely could not see any trace of the beam except on the target. It may not be realistic to expect zero particulate matter in an outdoors environment but your post is misleading and inaccurate. There are absolutely situations in which you can expect minimal particulate matter in outside air (IE, minimal "light-saber effect").

ETA, that being said, I work at one of the few places in the country that fires class 4 mil lasers outdoors. I'll be sure to pay more attention next time I get to take part in an outdoor, night-time test.
Link Posted: 8/18/2018 1:10:08 AM EST
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Originally Posted By SigOwner_P229:

This isn't true...

Like he said, it depends on particulate matter in the air. I've been in a FR with Class 4 lasers (over 500 mW) and with no particulate matter in the air you absolutely could not see any trace of the beam except on the target. It may not be realistic to expect zero particulate matter in an outdoors environment but your post is misleading and inaccurate. There are absolutely situations in which you can expect minimal particulate matter in outside air (IE, minimal "light-saber effect").

ETA, that being said, I work at one of the few places in the country that fires class 4 mil lasers outdoors. I'll be sure to pay more attention next time I get to take part in an outdoor, night-time test.
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Does it depend? Of course. Are there environments where there was such absence of any photonics barriers as to completely negate any IR signature? Maybe, but not in any part of the world I’ve ever fired an IR laser in. From in my central air conditioned, dust free house to Chrystal clear, wind free winter nights in Montana, there’s fairly significant straight line signature from my IR source.

You can split hairs on semantics all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that for all practical purposes, you’re not likely to encounter an environment where you don’t have to consider IR signature because there’s no inclement weather or dust in the air. This is especially true if the bad guys have NODs, which is the whole point of this thread.
Link Posted: 8/20/2018 6:11:17 AM EST
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Originally Posted By tlandoe07:

You can split hairs on semantics all you want,
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Sorry you feel that way but it's not splitting hairs or semantics. I think it's pretty clear that what you said isn't true in the least. Maybe what you said isn't what you meant to convey, but I can't change what you said.

Poster #1 says it depends on particulate matter.
Poster #2 (You) says "they're always visibile regardless of particulate matter"
Poster #3 (me) reinforces poster #1's assertion by offering real-world experience that even the most powerful mil IR lasers can only be seen on the target in the absence of particulate matter
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