User Panel
Posted: 7/30/2018 7:45:52 PM EDT
When you think the enemy may have NV capability do you still aim with laser or use RDS ? What exactly is passive aiming? I would imagine once the fire fight breaks out you could use laser like white light as cutting it on and off and moving. Educate me.
|
|
It all depends on how many particulates are in the air and how powerful your laser is. Generally on a clear night you will not be able to see a 0.7 mw laser bean so tracing it back to where it's coming from will be more difficult. Just keep in mind depending on your position and your target you can see the laser light up from the front even on 0.7mw lasers. As for when should you use your RDS in a no light situation it's the best way to get off the first shot, but depending on your muzzle device or use of a can will determine how well you'll stay concealed. Passive arming is not putting out any visual signature.
|
|
Quoted:
It all depends on how many particulates are in the air and how powerful your laser is. Generally on a clear night you will not be able to see a 0.7 mw laser bean so tracing it back to where it's coming from will be more difficult. Just keep in mind depending on your position and your target you can see the laser light up from the front even on 0.7mw lasers. As for when should you use your RDS in a no light situation it's the best way to get off the first shot, but depending on your muzzle device or use of a can will determine how well you'll stay concealed. Passive arming is not putting out any visual signature. View Quote For military applications, IR light is treated with the same discipline as white light. If the situation calls for it, it’s not uncommon to use the RDS, that’s why we have NVG compatible ones. In fact, I believe all the Eotechs and Aimpoints circulating the DOD are NV compatible. If you’ve ever wondered why you always seem to see Eotechs on risers on SOPMOD rifles, this is why. |
|
Quoted:
When you think the enemy may have NV capability do you still aim with laser or use RDS ? What exactly is passive aiming? I would imagine once the fire fight breaks out you could use laser like white light as cutting it on and off and moving. Educate me. View Quote This is why ITAR, even though we scoff at it sometimes, is no joke |
|
Quoted: Near-peer threats, and even insurgent threads, have been known to resource means of fighting at night more effectively than we generally would expect. There is a real security concern with night vision and in fact it’s commonly been employed by ISIS and other terrorist groups against coalition forces. Most, if not all of it, is misappropriated US equipment. This is why ITAR, even though we scoff at it sometimes, is no joke View Quote |
|
Quoted: ITAR makes sense for NV and comms equipment; it shouldn't be sold overseas, to anyone, since they're two of the most important advantages we have over other military forces. I don't foresee anyone taking a NVD apart and recreating a working one, though. View Quote |
|
What engagement techniques to use depends on a lot of different factors besides simply whether or not the enemy has NV technology—even cell phones and camcorders can sometimes detect IR emissions, you don’t need to have sophisticated Gen. 3 devices simply to know that your enemy is coming if they’re using active IR, but in doing so, you’ve denied them the element of surprise.
Just like some situations may dictate staying covert and using NV after the shooting has started while others dictate switching to white light, it depends a lot on the specifics of the situation, and is not a binary that you can easily say x = active, y = passive. Moreover, you may be in a situation where some members would go active, while others might remain passive, e.g., you may want to conceal your numbers or maintain certain undetected positions. One thing to remember in any team based context, but especially a military one is that not everyone is an “assaulter,” the success of the whole enchilada depends on a number of mutually supporting functions that may use differing equipment and engagement techniques. While vitally important, weapons manipulation and engagement techniques are not “tactics,” and are more a matter of individual competencies that you need before progressing to actual tactics and maneuver, but the particular way you execute them is largely irrelevant to success compared to proper application and integration of warfighting functions, fundamentals and principles of operations and tactical tasks, fires planning, and a whole host of other elements of combat operations. “TTP”s are Tactics, Techiques, and Procedures—most of what we talk about on open forums are techniques and procedures if that, much of it is raw hardware comparison. Finally, assuming that the enemy has lesser capabilities than they do, especially when such things are easily available commercially is a sadly common intelligence mistake that can get people and units in to a lot of trouble. A well worn truism: “most of the dumb ones are already dead.” ~Augee |
|
Never going to fully get rid of your signature at night.
I remember almost 30 years ago now, some SF guys took us out to train. O dark thirty, middle of the FL swamps. Silhouette targets at about 25 yards that just had the little 2" or so "fishing" cyalume lightsticks on them. Someone asked what was the purpose of the tiny lightstick- "Sometimes at night this is all you have of the enemy to shoot at." And we learned to hit it with iron sights. Sucked, but it was a good skill set. Even with a suppressor on your rifle, your going to have SOME signature at night. Proper training should overcome that. Pressure pad on, break the shot, release, move if possible. Why I am not a huge fan of having 500 sources of extra IR illumination on your head, ankles, ass, whatever. Some think it's about going out light up like a Christmas tree, but IR should be used sparingly. If it's just Bubba out whacking coyotes that's another thing though, use as much IR as you like. If your training to use NV for defensive purposes, learn to use as little IR as possible. |
|
Quoted:
What engagement techniques to use depends on a lot of different factors besides simply whether or not the enemy has NV technology—even cell phones and camcorders can sometimes detect IR emissions, you don’t need to have sophisticated Gen. 3 devices simply to know that your enemy is coming if they’re using active IR, but in doing so, you’ve denied them the element of surprise. Just like some situations may dictate staying covert and using NV after the shooting has started while others dictate switching to white light, it depends a lot on the specifics of the situation, and is not a binary that you can easily say x = active, y = passive. Moreover, you may be in a situation where some members would go active, while others might remain passive, e.g., you may want to conceal your numbers or maintain certain undetected positions. One thing to remember in any team based context, but especially a military one is that not everyone is an “assaulter,” the success of the whole enchilada depends on a number of mutually supporting functions that may use differing equipment and engagement techniques. While vitally important, weapons manipulation and engagement techniques are not “tactics,” and are more a matter of individual competencies that you need before progressing to actual tactics and maneuver, but the particular way you execute them is largely irrelevant to success compared to proper application and integration of warfighting functions, fundamentals and principles of operations and tactical tasks, fires planning, and a whole host of other elements of combat operations. “TTP”s are Tactics, Techiques, and Procedures—most of what we talk about on open forums are techniques and procedures if that, much of it is raw hardware comparison. Finally, assuming that the enemy has lesser capabilities than they do, especially when such things are easily available commercially is a sadly common intelligence mistake that can get people and units in to a lot of trouble. A well worn truism: “most of the dumb ones are already dead.” ~Augee View Quote |
|
Most units do not conduct realistic training that take this into consideration. Damn few really train as if insurgents have NVD capability, and even fewer (but this is changing) train as if fighting a near peer. Most live fires look like EDM light shows under NVDs.
Smart guys like you (seriously), think about it, and a few personally implement IR light discipline but outside of elite units where there are more folks per population that possess common sense they are few and far between. Most RDS (Aimpoint Comp M2/M4) have been replaced by ACOG TA-31s those aren't NVD compatible, they aren't meant to be they bloom bad and can damage a tube. It is possible to use a TA-31 with both eyes open, thats why 14s are commonly (and should be) worn over the non-dominant eye. You can superimpose the chevron over the target you see with your opposite/NVD eye; it's not the taught/book method but it does work. The M4 firing tables for day fire require 36/40 or higher for expert, during night fire it's a pass or fail event with the minimum passing score being 17/40. It's possible to shoot equally as well at night as during the day but it takes more PMI, time with the equipment and ammo. The scores required to pass demonstrate how much commitment the average unit has to being able to shoot at night and it isn't great. |
|
Quoted: I see restricted IR lasers and night vision being listed on tacswap and Facebook multiple times a week from users in Pakistan and other surrounding areas. Just as easily as they can try to re-import to the US, they can sell it to local warlords in Afghanistan or elsewhere. Just the other day, some Abdul guy had a brand new restricted DBAL-A3 that clearly said right on it “DO NOT SELL OR TRANSFER OUTSIDE OF THE DOD”. It had the -10, all the BII in the original plastic bags, and the Black MOLLE case. Our equipment finds its way into the wrongs hands more frequently than you would think. View Quote In fact there's more tube & housing manufacturers outside of the US than inside. Not in terms of units made per year though. It's more a question of resources instead of availability. People don't need US gear. Those too can be sometimes priced competitively, which probably means someone is losing money but not the one selling. In some cases it's US who paid for the gear for someone and then it "gets lost". Not saying that selling restricted items to bad guys is okay, but saying ITAR is not the thing directly giving US an advantage in night vision. Resources & training are high on the list if you ask me. Even many EU countries cannot afford to train with NODs anywhere near on the level that happens in the US. Many don't even get to see what a night vision scope is. Nor thermal. |
|
Quoted:
When you think the enemy may have NV capability do you still aim with laser or use RDS ? What exactly is passive aiming? I would imagine once the fire fight breaks out you could use laser like white light as cutting it on and off and moving. Educate me. View Quote I too would love to hear more on the topic. But I bet we aren't going to see many actionable answers on this most open forum. |
|
Quoted:
Most units do not conduct realistic training that take this into consideration. Damn few really train as if insurgents have NVD capability, and even fewer (but this is changing) train as if fighting a near peer. Most live fires look like EDM light shows under NVDs. Smart guys like you (seriously), think about it, and a few personally implement IR light discipline but outside of elite units where there are more folks per population that possess common sense they are few and far between. Most RDS (Aimpoint Comp M2/M4) have been replaced by ACOG TA-31s those aren't NVD compatible, they aren't meant to be they bloom bad and can damage a tube. It is possible to use a TA-31 with both eyes open, thats why 14s are commonly (and should be) worn over the non-dominant eye. You can superimpose the chevron over the target you see with your opposite/NVD eye; it's not the taught/book method but it does work. The M4 firing tables for day fire require 36/40 or higher for expert, during night fire it's a pass or fail event with the minimum passing score being 17/40. It's possible to shoot equally as well at night as during the day but it takes more PMI, time with the equipment and ammo. The scores required to pass demonstrate how much commitment the average unit has to being able to shoot at night and it isn't great. View Quote In any case OP, it’s best practice to regard IR the same you would white light and to use your RDS as much as possible over your laser if light discipline is a consideration, which it should be. I agree with the others, the military has lost its tactical proficiency in fighting threats that have similar capaibilities and if we don’t go back to some of our old TTPs from pre-GWOT, there may be costly consequences. |
|
My husband has been on this site for years and just passed away yesterday. Can anyone explain the cost of ammo? I'm so lost without him but he left me ammo to survive yet I don't know the value and will probably get ripped off.
|
|
Quoted:
My husband has been on this site for years and just passed away yesterday. Can anyone explain the cost of ammo? I'm so lost without him but he left me ammo to survive yet I don't know the value and will probably get ripped off. View Quote A moderator can move your question to team so you can get answers and help from the sites members, some who may have known your Husband. You can look up the current price of the ammo you have online or have a friend look it up for you. Then you can post the ammo for sale on the Equipment Exchange if you are looking to sell it. You won't get full retail but you should get close. Getting ripped off is up to you. Don't let anyone pressure you to sell. Get more than one opinion and don't be afraid to continue to ask for help. Good Luck. |
|
Quoted:
My husband has been on this site for years and just passed away yesterday. Can anyone explain the cost of ammo? I'm so lost without him but he left me ammo to survive yet I don't know the value and will probably get ripped off. View Quote |
|
Quoted:
Most units do not conduct realistic training that take this into consideration. Damn few really train as if insurgents have NVD capability, and even fewer (but this is changing) train as if fighting a near peer. Most live fires look like EDM light shows under NVDs. Smart guys like you (seriously), think about it, and a few personally implement IR light discipline but outside of elite units where there are more folks per population that possess common sense they are few and far between. Most RDS (Aimpoint Comp M2/M4) have been replaced by ACOG TA-31s those aren't NVD compatible, they aren't meant to be they bloom bad and can damage a tube. It is possible to use a TA-31 with both eyes open, thats why 14s are commonly (and should be) worn over the non-dominant eye. You can superimpose the chevron over the target you see with your opposite/NVD eye; it's not the taught/book method but it does work. The M4 firing tables for day fire require 36/40 or higher for expert, during night fire it's a pass or fail event with the minimum passing score being 17/40. It's possible to shoot equally as well at night as during the day but it takes more PMI, time with the equipment and ammo. The scores required to pass demonstrate how much commitment the average unit has to being able to shoot at night and it isn't great. View Quote |
|
Quoted: My condolences on your loss. A moderator can move your question to team so you can get answers and help from the sites members, some who may have known your Husband. You can look up the current price of the ammo you have online or have a friend look it up for you. Then you can post the ammo for sale on the Equipment Exchange if you are looking to sell it. You won't get full retail but you should get close. Getting ripped off is up to you. Don't let anyone pressure you to sell. Get more than one opinion and don't be afraid to continue to ask for help. Good Luck. View Quote Sorry about the derail guys. Working on it. |
|
Quoted:
I have staff looking to see if anyone knows her husband, and help direct her. Sorry about the derail guys. Working on it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: My condolences on your loss. A moderator can move your question to team so you can get answers and help from the sites members, some who may have known your Husband. You can look up the current price of the ammo you have online or have a friend look it up for you. Then you can post the ammo for sale on the Equipment Exchange if you are looking to sell it. You won't get full retail but you should get close. Getting ripped off is up to you. Don't let anyone pressure you to sell. Get more than one opinion and don't be afraid to continue to ask for help. Good Luck. Sorry about the derail guys. Working on it. |
|
Quoted:
Based on your user handle, I think I know what you're asking. And I think it's a very prescient area of consideration. I too would love to hear more on the topic. But I bet we aren't going to see many actionable answers on this most open forum. View Quote |
|
Quoted: You can absolutely see the beam when it’s on high, regardless of fog and particulate matter in the air. It almost looks like a lightsaber coming out of your gun, View Quote Like he said, it depends on particulate matter in the air. I've been in a FR with Class 4 lasers (over 500 mW) and with no particulate matter in the air you absolutely could not see any trace of the beam except on the target. It may not be realistic to expect zero particulate matter in an outdoors environment but your post is misleading and inaccurate. There are absolutely situations in which you can expect minimal particulate matter in outside air (IE, minimal "light-saber effect"). ETA, that being said, I work at one of the few places in the country that fires class 4 mil lasers outdoors. I'll be sure to pay more attention next time I get to take part in an outdoor, night-time test. |
|
Quoted:
This isn't true... Like he said, it depends on particulate matter in the air. I've been in a FR with Class 4 lasers (over 500 mW) and with no particulate matter in the air you absolutely could not see any trace of the beam except on the target. It may not be realistic to expect zero particulate matter in an outdoors environment but your post is misleading and inaccurate. There are absolutely situations in which you can expect minimal particulate matter in outside air (IE, minimal "light-saber effect"). ETA, that being said, I work at one of the few places in the country that fires class 4 mil lasers outdoors. I'll be sure to pay more attention next time I get to take part in an outdoor, night-time test. View Quote You can split hairs on semantics all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that for all practical purposes, you’re not likely to encounter an environment where you don’t have to consider IR signature because there’s no inclement weather or dust in the air. This is especially true if the bad guys have NODs, which is the whole point of this thread. |
|
Quoted: You can split hairs on semantics all you want, View Quote Poster #1 says it depends on particulate matter. Poster #2 (You) says "they're always visibile regardless of particulate matter" Poster #3 (me) reinforces poster #1's assertion by offering real-world experience that even the most powerful mil IR lasers can only be seen on the target in the absence of particulate matter |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.