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MD, USA
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Posted: 3/13/2017 1:22:03 PM EDT
[#1]
I've been pondering which annealer to get for quite some time. Definitely leaning towards the MRB due to easy and simple caliber changes.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/14/2017 10:08:10 AM EDT
[#2]
Great updated review, OP.
What's the purpose of the random screw/nut in one of the holes on the gate? |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:09:00 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tzzler44:
Great updated review, OP. What's the purpose of the random screw/nut in one of the holes on the gate? |
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Posted: 4/22/2017 4:09:12 PM EDT
[#4]
You cost me some money, pop.
Picked it up this week. Runs very nice. Couple points: 1. Was hoping I could fill hopper. The cases tend to get pushed up on right side so if you fill her, it spills out. 2. Cases were dragging on the black sloped piece and sometimes didnt land flat. I greased up the slope a bit and they slide fine now. 3. Some cases were not spinningthe entire time. I believe there is friction on the base near back. Wonder if it is the spent primer catching on something. I really dont want to have to deprime first cause it adds unnecessary step. That is one reason I am not in love with bench source. Cases must stand flat. Spent primer can cause issues. Overall quite happy. Thanks for posting your review. |
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Posted: 4/22/2017 7:03:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By djryan13:
You cost me some money, pop. Picked it up this week. Runs very nice. Couple points: 1. Was hoping I could fill hopper. The cases tend to get pushed up on right side so if you fill her, it spills out. Yes, I memtioned this, a little shield would take care if it. Seems like .308 cases don't do it. 2. Cases were dragging on the black sloped piece and sometimes didnt land flat. I greased up the slope a bit and they slide fine now. Didn't have that issue. I do leave it in for all cases. Maybe the delrin is rough or has a burr. 3. Some cases were not spinningthe entire time. I believe there is friction on the base near back. Wonder if it is the spent primer catching on something. I really dont want to have to deprime first cause it adds unnecessary step. That is one reason I am not in love with bench source. Cases must stand flat. Spent primer can cause issues. I had this happen when setting up on .223 with junk cases that had torn rims. My cases are all decaped and wet tumbled, i have not had this with my good clean cases. I wouldn't think a primer would matter but rough rims or beat up out of round cases may get caught by the gate. Overall quite happy. Thanks for posting your review.  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/22/2017 7:11:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Good info.
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Posted: 4/22/2017 7:16:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WeimaranerDad]
[#7]
Dumb question for you all...
Out of the few videos posted in this thread, I noticed everbody's brass is just dropping into a dry pan. The brass just piles up. I thought hot brass like that was dropped into a pan of water to keep the heat from creeping down the shoulders and the case body. The water quench keeps the brass from softening too far down on the case. Or was that just the very old skool way of annealing brass with the cases standing up in a pan of water, with tempilac on the case neck/case mouth? EDIT: how many more reloadings/firings do you think you guys extend the brass life by annealing the brass? |
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Posted: 4/22/2017 7:39:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WeimaranerDad:
Dumb question for you all... Out of the few videos posted in this thread, I noticed everbody's brass is just dropping into a dry pan. The brass just piles up. I thought hot brass like that was dropped into a pan of water to keep the heat from creeping down the shoulders and the case body. The water quench keeps the brass from softening too far down on the case. Or was that just the very old skool way of annealing brass with the cases standing up in a pan of water, with tempilac on the case neck/case mouth? EDIT: how many more reloadings/firings do you think you guys extend the brass life by annealing the brass? The brass life is extended in that you won't see split necks from work hardening. I now( since annealing) lose cases from case head separation starting a bit around 12x firing, never have split necks. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2017 9:04:04 PM EDT
[#9]
I'm going to have to get one of these. Now that I have 600 Lapua 260 rem cases it will be worth it, as well as converting LC cases to 300 blk.
The drill method is very time consuming if your doing more than 200 cases at a time. I dread it whenever it's time to anneal cases at the moment. |
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Posted: 4/22/2017 10:49:58 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WeimaranerDad:
Dumb question for you all... Out of the few videos posted in this thread, I noticed everbody's brass is just dropping into a dry pan. The brass just piles up. I thought hot brass like that was dropped into a pan of water to keep the heat from creeping down the shoulders and the case body. The water quench keeps the brass from softening too far down on the case. Or was that just the very old skool way of annealing brass with the cases standing up in a pan of water, with tempilac on the case neck/case mouth? EDIT: how many more reloadings/firings do you think you guys extend the brass life by annealing the brass? Cases were overheated and the water half way up the case kept the case head from becoming soft due to overheating. |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 3:04:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dano523]
[#11]
Only down side I really see to the annealer, is they they are running on propane with a large flame, and that is a lot of wasted propane instead.
So something like a DIY micro torch may be a better way to go for a heat source instead. [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvVHYhX5xZ0[/youtube] |
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Posted: 4/23/2017 3:43:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dano523:
Only down side I really see to the annealer, is they they are running on propane with a large flame, and that is a lot of wasted propane instead. So something like a DIY micro torch may be a better way to go for a heat source instead.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvVHYhX5xZ0I turn the tank wide open and the torch wide open so it is the same everytime. ....and I really couldn't care less about the little bit of propane being wasted, to care about something so inconsiquential would mean I chose the wrong hobby. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 1/9/2018 9:58:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Miser201]
[#13]
Was wondering if you had a chance to compare it to Annealeez machine? About to place a order for the MRB, but kind of second guessing since it looks like the price is $439 (Plus buying a torch and hose) compared to $325 of the Annealeez (w/ set of Blk Out Wheels).
@popnfresh |
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Posted: 1/10/2018 8:45:22 PM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 1/10/2018 11:50:03 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Miser201:
Was wondering if you had a chance to compare it to Annealeez machine? About to place a order for the MRB, but kind of second guessing since it looks like the price is $439 (Plus buying a torch and hose) compared to $325 of the Annealeez (w/ set of Blk Out Wheels). @popnfresh |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/12/2018 2:30:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Miser201:
Was wondering if you had a chance to compare it to Annealeez machine? About to place a order for the MRB, but kind of second guessing since it looks like the price is $439 (Plus buying a torch and hose) compared to $325 of the Annealeez (w/ set of Blk Out Wheels). @popnfresh @Miser201 |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2019 3:04:06 PM EDT
[#17]
People who have this annealer , hows it holding up ?
I’m thinking of buying one . |
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Posted: 1/13/2019 3:28:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bm3:
People who have this annealer , hows it holding up ? I'm thinking of buying one . |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2019 7:24:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
No change, no signs of wear though they are pretty simple so there isn't much to go wrong from normal use. |
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Posted: 1/14/2019 12:57:08 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
The instant the heat is removed the case starts cooling, it won't creep down the body. The brass life is extended in that you won't see split necks from work hardening. I now( since annealing) lose cases from case head separation starting a bit around 12x firing, never have split necks. 
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Posted: 1/14/2019 11:33:10 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKSnowRider:
Also, if not more important would be more consistent neck tension... |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2019 2:50:35 PM EDT
[#22]
popn or others with the MRB, looking at MRB's site, I notice he says the machine doesn't include the torch. I notice his pic shows the flame/gas control unit, and I guess that's what I normally call the "torch".
I realize this may just be a semantics thing, but is he stating his machine doesn't come with that flame/gas control unit, or is he referring to "torch" as the whole gas bottle, hose, and flame/gas control head? I'm guessing if it doesn't come with the brass flame/gas control unit, that the applicable unit is of the fairly generic style available with most hand held torches. I'd guess using a whole refillable propane bottle with a conventional regulator would provide more consistent gas pressure and therefore temps? |
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USA
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Posted: 1/15/2019 4:19:46 PM EDT
[#23]
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2019 6:53:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ARTNC10]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer:
Mike's Reloading Bench Annealer - $440 (OUCH!) Link to Mike's Reloading Bench Annealer The price is tough, and that's why I was asking about the "torch" in my question. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/15/2019 9:23:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ARTNC10: Yeah, but it looks really effective and relatively easy to setup. From looking at the other "flame" types out there, it seems less fiddly. The price is tough, and that's why I was asking about the "torch" in my question. On that note, how long does the small bottle of propane last? I have a hose that would allow me to use the large bottles of propane (5 gallon?). The thing I struggle with is the lack of evidence that annealing extends case life in any significant way or that it improves accuracy,... or does anything. |
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Posted: 1/16/2019 1:07:12 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: If you can afford the $440 for the annealer, should you really worry about the $4 for the torch? Propane is a bigger cost issue. On that note, how long does the small bottle of propane last? I have a hose that would allow me to use the large bottles of propane (5 gallon?). The thing I struggle with is the lack of evidence that annealing extends case life in any significant way or that it improves accuracy,... or does anything. https://www.petersoncartridge.com/our-process/drawing-brass |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2019 2:43:44 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: If you can afford the $440 for the annealer, should you really worry about the $4 for the torch? Propane is a bigger cost issue. On that note, how long does the small bottle of propane last? I have a hose that would allow me to use the large bottles of propane (5 gallon?). The thing I struggle with is the lack of evidence that annealing extends case life in any significant way or that it improves accuracy,... or does anything. As far as propane, I'd be using a refillable bottle, hose, and regulator. I have plenty of bottles that get used for the grill and travel trailer and have a 250-gallon unit for the house out in the sticks. I can even run a regulated line off the house supply. Propane is in great supply in my area and decently affordable. I don't deal with those grocery store or other 20-pound bottle exchange outlets. Your take on the annealing assessment is interesting. AKSR's comments tend to point out the logic based on the manufacturers' investment in the process. Many precision shooter's who reload also tend to support it due to neck tension consistency if not also for case life. If I were only loading 5.56/.223 for general shooting and hunting, I think I might not consider annealing. I'm looking at annealing more for 300BO, a long range .243, 6.5CM, and .308...and I do have a long range .223 that I would use if for also. I know that most of us as reloaders, and especially if we pursue long range accuracy, can be somewhat anal about the reloading process. But if you can produce some decent evidence of annealing being a waste of time, I'd be glad to drop a step in the process. |
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Posted: 1/16/2019 8:52:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ARTNC10:
popn or others with the MRB, looking at MRB's site, I notice he says the machine doesn't include the torch. I notice his pic shows the flame/gas control unit, and I guess that's what I normally call the "torch". I realize this may just be a semantics thing, but is he stating his machine doesn't come with that flame/gas control unit, or is he referring to "torch" as the whole gas bottle, hose, and flame/gas control head? I'm guessing if it doesn't come with the brass flame/gas control unit, that the applicable unit is of the fairly generic style available with most hand held torches. I'd guess using a whole refillable propane bottle with a conventional regulator would provide more consistent gas pressure and therefore temps? I bought the torch head he recommended. BernzOmatic UL2317 I have never used it with 1lb bottles. I get the 15lb(20) tanks, they last forever it seems and are $15 to exchange at Walmart. I don't use a regulator, crank the torch wide open as well as the tank. Pictures lost from Photobucket issues.  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 1/16/2019 9:30:09 AM EDT
[#29]
 Attached File Attached FilePicture lost from Photobucket disaster.  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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USA
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Posted: 1/16/2019 1:32:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKSnowRider: And yet in a top bullet manufacturers description of how they make their brass, each piece is annealed 3 times during the forming process, then annealed a final time before being packaged and shipped for sale for use....Seems odd these manufacturers would waste both the time and the money if it wasn't needed.. that is a shit load of wasted profit if it is not needed... https://www.petersoncartridge.com/our-process/drawing-brass They have to do several deep, deep, deep drawing operations. Material has strain limits due to work hardening. What they do is VERY different than what a reloader does there's really no comparison. Especially so if you use a bushing to limit cold working during resizing. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/16/2019 1:39:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ARTNC10: Not really talking about a $4 torch as the issue...though I'm seeing more like $12-$14 for a common Bernzomatic unit. I was more curious if that unit is not supplied, is it a common unit like the Bernzomatic or something proprietary and therefore more expensive. As far as propane, I'd be using a refillable bottle, hose, and regulator. I have plenty of bottles that get used for the grill and travel trailer and have a 250-gallon unit for the house out in the sticks. I can even run a regulated line off the house supply. Propane is in great supply in my area and decently affordable. I don't deal with those grocery store or other 20-pound bottle exchange outlets. Your take on the annealing assessment is interesting. AKSR's comments tend to point out the logic based on the manufacturers' investment in the process. Many precision shooter's who reload also tend to support it due to neck tension consistency if not also for case life. If I were only loading 5.56/.223 for general shooting and hunting, I think I might not consider annealing. I'm looking at annealing more for 300BO, a long range .243, 6.5CM, and .308...and I do have a long range .223 that I would use if for also. I know that most of us as reloaders, and especially if we pursue long range accuracy, can be somewhat anal about the reloading process. But if you can produce some decent evidence of annealing being a waste of time, I'd be glad to drop a step in the process. Popnfresh referred to uniformity of neck tension and supposed benefits in accuracy. I have never seen accuracy results with and without annealing. Have you? Does anyone out there have this type of data? That info would be of great help in selling this type of gear. Without it, I would not invest $500 or more in an annealer. Even with the info, you'd have to justify the $500 versus simply buying additional brass. . . . I tried annealing cases to avoid cracking of the shoulder and necks after case forming. It was entirely unsuccessful. I used Tempilaq and spun the case in front of a propane flame. The results with and without that annealing cycle were not significantly different. . . . P.S. - Bernzomatic kit = torch + 1 bottle at Walmart. Cost of kit minus one replacement bottle differed by $4 , so the cost the torch was $4. $4, $12 or even $20 really makes no difference relative to a $440 annealer cost. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2019 1:57:32 PM EDT
[#32]
Trollslayer, that was my point/question in my last post. This is not a jab at you or anyone. If you have data or a link in your reference to the "they" who did this testing, I'm more than eager to look at it.
If it's true or even marginally true, I'd be happy to resist buying a $400+ machine to perform a step I'd love to bypass. Again, no snark or underlying motive in my question. And a little off the specific topic, I didn't take AKSR's comment as snarky. Considering why manufacturers would invest the time and money in the process is something to consider as well as your suggestion that part of their process doesn't correspond "exactly" to all of the efforts of a home reloader. I've always found AKSR's comments to be quite civil and substantive. I think he asked and brought up a logical point of consideration. And no...I'm not the president of his fan club here...LOL! 
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USA
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Posted: 1/16/2019 3:39:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ARTNC10:
Trollslayer, that was my point/question in my last post. This is not a jab at you or anyone. If you have data or a link in your reference to the "they" who did this testing, I'm more than eager to look at it. If it's true or even marginally true, I'd be happy to resist buying a $400+ machine to perform a step I'd love to bypass. Again, no snark or underlying motive in my question. And a little off the specific topic, I didn't take AKSR's comment as snarky. Considering why manufacturers would invest the time and money in the process is something to consider as well as your suggestion that part of their process doesn't correspond "exactly" to all of the efforts of a home reloader. I've always found AKSR's comments to be quite civil and substantive. I think he asked and brought up a logical point of consideration. And no...I'm not the president of his fan club here...LOL! The desire for accuracy data versus annealing is genuine on my part. I would love to find a way to further improve my reloads. They are very good right now and I am the limiting factor in how well I shoot (1/2 MOA), not my reloads. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/16/2019 3:52:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#34]
Here is the source data.
One early observation is that until you get past 12 reloadings, unannealed does better than "annealed every time". At that point all three populations have lost half their starting cases. A sample size of 150 cases allows high confidence in the results (statistical confidence level ~95%). It will take time for me to find the rest of this. The old post, where this was discussed, has slipped into the archive, to which I do not have access. 
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Posted: 1/16/2019 4:22:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer:
Popnfresh referred to uniformity of neck tension and supposed benefits in accuracy. I have never seen accuracy results with and without annealing. Have you? Does anyone out there have this type of data? Maybe muzzle velocity variation, but I have not seen that personally. I do notice seating depth variation issues when when getting up there in firing cycle that annealing seems to alleviate. And as stated since annealing I have not had a split neck. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/16/2019 6:38:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
I don't think there is any benifit to accuracy and don't think I implied there was. Maybe muzzle velocity variation, but I have not seen that personally. I do notice seating depth variation issues when when getting up there in firing cycle that annealing seems to alleviate. And as stated since annealing I have not had a split neck. When you say reduced muzzle velocity variations, I immediately think of reduced vertical dispersion (greater accuracy) during long range shooting (800+ yards). |
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Posted: 1/16/2019 7:00:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer:
I apologize for misquoting you. When you say reduced muzzle velocity variations, I immediately thought of reduced vertical dispersion (greater accuracy) during long range shooting (800+ yards). Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer:
Originally Posted By popnfresh:
I don't think there is any benifit to accuracy and don't think I implied there was. Maybe muzzle velocity variation, but I have not seen that personally. I do notice seating depth variation issues when when getting up there in firing cycle that annealing seems to alleviate. And as stated since annealing I have not had a split neck. When you say reduced muzzle velocity variations, I immediately thought of reduced vertical dispersion (greater accuracy) during long range shooting (800+ yards). I've personally not noticed any notable change in SDs or ESs going from 5x since anneal to just annealed. I should have said mmaaaayyyyybe less velocity variation lol in a doubtful tone. I have seen other people claim it helps. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/16/2019 7:05:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#38]
Case life - total number of firings from all 150 cases (the area under the curve).
2,010 - annealed every time 2,009 - random anneal 1,812 - no annealing 1. Compared to not annealing at all, annealing every time yields 11% more firings from a batch of cases. Random annealing does just as well (+11%). 2. By the time the annealed cases exceeds the never annealed cases (12 firings), you have lost almost 1/2 of all cases. This means you no longer have enough cases to shoot an 88 round match. FUTURE WORK What I would like to see is the effect on case life of using controlled amounts of neck and case sizing (neck bushings, properly sized expander and 0.003" shoulder bump). Standard dies really overwork the brass,... a lot. I think if people want to sell these gizmos the gear needs to earn their place on the bench. The sellers should show the benefits of their gear/process. If there is no demonstrable benefit, these (like so many other gizmos) are just so much 'snake oil'. |
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Posted: 1/16/2019 7:40:11 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: Rather snide remark, no? They have to do several deep, deep, deep drawing operations. Material has strain limits due to work hardening. What they do is VERY different than what a reloader does there's really no comparison. Especially so if you use a bushing to limit cold working during resizing. http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html |
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USA
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Posted: 1/16/2019 7:52:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#40]
Again, making brass is different than reloading. For them, it is mandatory to get good in-process yield during deep drawing/forming. The final step could be as simple as ensuring uniformity of product before it goes out the door and uniformity upon receipt by their customer. I also suspect it does not cost them a lot of money for that final anneal, given they have the equipment for in-process use.
Prove it does anything beneficial to the shooter, that's all I'm asking. The case life study (above) was surprising and disappointing to me when I first saw the results. |
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Posted: 1/16/2019 8:13:56 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer:
Again, making brass is different than reloading. For them, it is mandatory to get good in-process yield during deep drawing/forming. The final step could be as simple as ensuring uniformity of product before it goes out the door and uniformity upon receipt by their customer. I also suspect it does not cost them a lot of money for that final anneal, given they have the equipment for in-process use. Prove it does anything beneficial to the shooter, that's all I'm asking. The case life study (above) was surprising and disappointing to me when I first saw the results. As for proving anything...It has been proven many times over that annealing cases changes the physical property of cases..that's beyond debate by anyone..the real question is if each persons reloading"system" is able to take advantage of it or not..I personally have seen longer case life..going from an average of 6 loadings per case to having 11 loads and still going strong...I. also can feel more consistency on the handle in seating pressure..provable on a board..nope, but the feel on the end of that handle is there regardless...I lose less cases to split necks..3 cases in over 650 rounds fired...I've lost the same amount to earthquake....Everything we as reloaders do is to improve consistency...annealing is another of those things..do it or not, nothing I can post will change your mind, nor should it..You have said your methods produce the results you desire without annealing..thats awesome..  On the other hand, annealing as part of my system of reloading is producing the results I desire...again nothing wrong with it...
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2019 9:20:12 PM EDT
[#42]
Interesting data there, TS, thanks for posting that. I would like to see the source of who did that test. Just for my clarification, that's not a test you performed, is it?
I guess it's just hard to question or challenge that annealing actually yields benefits due to the normally accepted metallurgy results you see commented on so frequently. I'm certainly no engineer, but I hate to accept things just because it's always the way it's been done. I hope others chime in with substantive results or references to indepth tests that shed more light. |
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Posted: 1/17/2019 8:37:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer:
Case life - total number of firings from all 150 cases (the area under the curve). 2,010 - annealed every time 2,009 - random anneal 1,812 - no annealing 1. Compared to not annealing at all, annealing every time yields 11% more firings from a batch of cases. Random annealing does just as well (+11%). 2. By the time the annealed cases exceeds the never annealed cases (12 firings), you have lost almost 1/2 of all cases. This means you no longer have enough cases to shoot an 88 round match. FUTURE WORK What I would like to see is the effect on case life of using controlled amounts of neck and case sizing (neck bushings, properly sized expander and 0.003" shoulder bump). Standard dies really overwork the brass,... a lot. I think if people want to sell these gizmos the gear needs to earn their place on the bench. The sellers should show the benefits of their gear/process. If there is no demonstrable benefit, these (like so many other gizmos) are just so much 'snake oil'. How is it mine make is 10-12-15x firings and never any split necks? I lose cases to case head separation. I haven't run a controlled experiment but zero split necks is pretty noticeable. Perhaps this guy wasn't annealing any cases.....he may have gone through the motions but wasn't actually doing anything. If Tempilaq was used to determine anneal times I have little confidence in the results. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/17/2019 2:04:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
This is very fishy data. 50% of the cases were lost to split necks by 12 firings in the annealed set? How is it mine make is 10-12-15x firings and never any split necks? I lose cases to case head separation. I haven't run a controlled experiment but zero split necks is pretty noticeable. Perhaps this guy wasn't annealing any cases.....he may have gone through the motions but wasn't actually doing anything. If Tempilaq was used to determine anneal times I have little confidence in the results. What is your issue with Temilaq? I don't understand your point. Is there a better way to set/control the process temperature? How about losing brass in the grass, that's a real effect. I'll be damned if I can bring home 100% of my brass even when shooting on a concrete pad. Brass does not last forever. If you can provide a better, cohesive data set comparing annealing to non-annealed cases, I'd love to see that. I'd like to see the other things I mentioned, too - accuracy tests and carefully controlled resizing. I remember running a piece of brass through a FL die without an expander ball and was mortified by how small the neck was made (how much cold working was being done to it). This completely explained all case neck failures and prompted my use of bushing dies. The other thing was the huge shoulder set back associated with setting the sizing die to touch the shell holder (the standard die instruction). |
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USA
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Posted: 1/17/2019 2:19:10 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ARTNC10:
I would like to see the source of who did that test. Just for my clarification, that's not a test you performed, is it? |
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Posted: 1/17/2019 3:57:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: I never said the case failures were due to split necks. The data is mute on failure mode. It provides total, overall failure rate. I don't think failure mode is all that important to this discussion because a failed case is failed. Whether it was the neck, case head, case wall,... it makes no difference. What is your issue with Temilaq? I don't understand your point. Is there a better way to set/control the process temperature? How about losing brass in the grass, that's a real effect. I'll be damned if I can bring home 100% of my brass even when shooting on a concrete pad. Brass does not last forever. If you can provide a better, cohesive data set comparing annealing to non-annealed cases, I'd love to see that. I'd like to see the other things I mentioned, too - accuracy tests and carefully controlled resizing. I remember running a piece of brass through a FL die without an expander ball and was mortified by how small the neck was made (how much cold working was being done to it). This completely explained all case neck failures and prompted my use of bushing dies. The other thing was the huge shoulder set back associated with setting the sizing die to touch the shell holder (the standard die instruction). Losing a case to CHS or a brass scrounge or running them over is not relevant to a study on annealing as it pertains to case life. . . . Tempilaq I think many people who use Tempilac in fear of over annealing are actually not doing anything to the brass at all. They go until the stuff changes state and that's it, call it good. I tried that method and it seemed it did no good. Inconsistent seating depths remained, inconsistent seating feel reamained, one case would glow red one wouldn't. I used a metronome and timer, it didn't matter, it seemed I needed much more time than the Tempilaq suggested to anneal EVERY case. This is with Lapua brass from a given lot, not random range pickups or LC. Perhaps the guy doing the test just followed what everyone was parroting, 1 second after the Temilaq changes and remove heat or whatever . I believe, from my observations, that some cases require more time in the heat than others. Some of the cases in the batch are never really being annealed only being exposed to XXX degrees for X seconds. Now when I do it, the case is in until it is glowing red(in a dark room)to the shoulder dropping out of the machine. If I see more than a handful that don't glow, I increase the time and run the whole batch a second time. Over-annealing hasn't been an issue. A rough example: 8 seconds might work for 50% of the cases but the other 50% might require 11 seconds. Going 13 seconds makes certain all are annealed and none are yet ruined. It would be fun to setup an experiment on this(neck splits only because that is the only benefit of annealing that is obvious) but I just blew my life savings on a second house out of state, I'm done shooting for a while. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2019 5:43:23 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
Annealing is about preventing case loss from split necks not case head separation or dropping them in deep grass. Losing a case to CHS or a brass scrounge or running them over is not relevant to a study on annealing as it pertains to case life. . . . Tempilaq I think many people who use Tempilac in fear of over annealing are actually not doing anything to the brass at all. They go until the stuff changes state and that's it, call it good. I tried that method and it seemed it did no good. Inconsistent seating depths remained, inconsistent seating feel reamained, one case would glow red one wouldn't. I used a metronome and timer, it didn't matter, it seemed I needed much more time than the Tempilaq suggested to anneal EVERY case. This is with Lapua brass from a given lot, not random range pickups or LC. Perhaps the guy doing the test just followed what everyone was parroting, 1 second after the Temilaq changes and remove heat or whatever . I believe, from my observations, that some cases require more time in the heat than others. Some of the cases in the batch are never really being annealed only being exposed to XXX degrees for X seconds. Now when I do it, the case is in until it is glowing red(in a dark room)to the shoulder dropping out of the machine. If I see more than a handful that don't glow, I increase the time and run the whole batch a second time. Over-annealing hasn't been an issue. A rough example: 8 seconds might work for 50% of the cases but the other 50% might require 11 seconds. Going 13 seconds makes certain all are annealed and none are yet ruined. It would be fun to setup an experiment on this(neck splits only because that is the only benefit of annealing that is obvious) but I just blew my life savings on a second house out of state, I'm done shooting for a while. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
Originally Posted By Trollslayer: I never said the case failures were due to split necks. The data is mute on failure mode. It provides total, overall failure rate. I don't think failure mode is all that important to this discussion because a failed case is failed. Whether it was the neck, case head, case wall,... it makes no difference. What is your issue with Temilaq? I don't understand your point. Is there a better way to set/control the process temperature? How about losing brass in the grass, that's a real effect. I'll be damned if I can bring home 100% of my brass even when shooting on a concrete pad. Brass does not last forever. If you can provide a better, cohesive data set comparing annealing to non-annealed cases, I'd love to see that. I'd like to see the other things I mentioned, too - accuracy tests and carefully controlled resizing. I remember running a piece of brass through a FL die without an expander ball and was mortified by how small the neck was made (how much cold working was being done to it). This completely explained all case neck failures and prompted my use of bushing dies. The other thing was the huge shoulder set back associated with setting the sizing die to touch the shell holder (the standard die instruction). Losing a case to CHS or a brass scrounge or running them over is not relevant to a study on annealing as it pertains to case life. . . . Tempilaq I think many people who use Tempilac in fear of over annealing are actually not doing anything to the brass at all. They go until the stuff changes state and that's it, call it good. I tried that method and it seemed it did no good. Inconsistent seating depths remained, inconsistent seating feel reamained, one case would glow red one wouldn't. I used a metronome and timer, it didn't matter, it seemed I needed much more time than the Tempilaq suggested to anneal EVERY case. This is with Lapua brass from a given lot, not random range pickups or LC. Perhaps the guy doing the test just followed what everyone was parroting, 1 second after the Temilaq changes and remove heat or whatever . I believe, from my observations, that some cases require more time in the heat than others. Some of the cases in the batch are never really being annealed only being exposed to XXX degrees for X seconds. Now when I do it, the case is in until it is glowing red(in a dark room)to the shoulder dropping out of the machine. If I see more than a handful that don't glow, I increase the time and run the whole batch a second time. Over-annealing hasn't been an issue. A rough example: 8 seconds might work for 50% of the cases but the other 50% might require 11 seconds. Going 13 seconds makes certain all are annealed and none are yet ruined. It would be fun to setup an experiment on this(neck splits only because that is the only benefit of annealing that is obvious) but I just blew my life savings on a second house out of state, I'm done shooting for a while. I’ll do the test this year compared to not annealing . |
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USA
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Posted: 1/17/2019 5:55:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
Annealing is about preventing case loss from split necks not case head separation or dropping them in deep grass. Losing a case to CHS or a brass scrounge or running them over is not relevant to a study on annealing as it pertains to case life. Annealers are being offered for sale based upon extending case life. If the brass is unusable for any reason, you still have to replace it. You might purchase an annealer and add work to your process but may still need to replace your brass. I am interested in your Tempilaq experience. I tried to use annealing attempting to 'rescue' some reformed cases but the annealing had no benefit - with and without annealing yielded the same failure mode and same failure rate (IIRC, ~80%). I did more than the minimum on time and temperature of the neck and shoulder, too. I used the Tempilaq to ensure I did not anneal the case head and to ensure I was getting the entire neck and shoulder over the annealing temperature. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/17/2019 8:10:00 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bm3:
I have some brand new LC brass in 223. I’ll do the test this year compared to not annealing . If you can, try to measure your dies or their effect on the brass during resizing. How much does the neck get undersized and then stretched back by your expander ball? How far back does the shoulder get pushed? How thick are the case necks? When in the experiment did cases get trimmed? |
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Posted: 1/20/2019 5:38:05 PM EDT
[#50]
Problem is see with most Anealers, is that they will design a good feed system for the brass, but all really lacking on the torch side instead.
Hence instead of just grabbing an off the shelf propane type torch to bolt in place, would be better the designers to either find or build a better touch with a small flame that would use less Propane (or LP) isntead. Hence in all the video, you will see that the a great deal of the flame is being wasted above and below the brass, which means that your wasting a great deal of gas in the first place. Also, this means that if your using propane, it only going about half as long as really needed isntead. As for an induction coil heat unit so you don't have an open flame, not sure anyone has gotten that design ready for prime time to last long term, so still think that a micro torch that you can connect to your home natural gas line is still the cheapest way to run one. Hell, to make it even simpler, torch could be a HHO / Oxihydrogen torch that runs hot enough for the small flame source, and very cheap to run in the end since you mostly running it off water. [youtube]https://youtu.be/a4dspV6yjbU[/youtube] |
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