I need help, being a noob at M60s...

After checking the forums here and elsewhere, I took folks’ advice and double/triple checked with the seller of a registered Maremount M60 that the trunion (the registered part) wasn’t a re-weld. Unfortunately, after it arrived at my local dealer... well, you can guess: the trunion is a re-weld. There’s also a slight amount of play in it, where I can press the side of the barrel and have it move a small amount within the trunion socket. It’s only a 1/16th or maybe 1/32nd of an inch of play, so I hope that’s not a problem. The gun itself was a re-weld, but it was supposed to have been built on a Maremount trunion that hadn’t been touched. I was cool with that, because another vendor could replace the re-welded parts and bring it up to E6 configuration, which would leave me with a perfect M60. My concern is thus mainly around the registered trunion and how the fact that it’s a re-weld is likely to affect longevity and the future selling price.

With that as background:

What’s the impact on the price of an M60 like this (all else being equal) resulting from the trunion being a reweld? I’m trying to find out what’s a fair resolution with the seller, who is a major dealer. And in fairness to them, I don’t think they had a chance to inspect the gun themselves beforehand and the person they bought it from had assured them it wasn’t a re-welded trunion, so I don’t want to throw them under the bus. It’s more about what the price delta should be given it wasn’t as described. Any thoughts?

Also, am I right that the slight movement where the barrel meets the trunion isn’t a problem or is this also cause for concern?

Thanks! ARFCOM rocks.

I don’t know anything about the M60, but I would demand a refund from the seller because it wasn’t sold to you in the condition stated. That is unless you got a really good deal, otherwise get a refund and buy another one. These aren’t cheap and you should be 100% happy with your purchase.

You're the second person this month who has spoken of buying an M60, and when it arrived, the condition was not as presented. The other person, I personally know.

Forget the discount; you need to absolutely demand a refund. Hopefully, the seller has not already spent your money, so good luck.

Here is the uncomfortable truth of rewelds: they are not safe to shoot. Eventually they will fail.

Rewelds, of any sort, are nothing more than junk. And here is a reputable source that agrees with me:  https://www.fulton-armory.com/faqs/M1G-FAQs/Weld.htm

Lots of people will say that they have rewelds and that they've been shooting them for years with no problem. Yea, ok.

As to your other question, if you want to keep it (I urge that you don't), then the price difference is typically about 40-50% less.

To give a comparison, a Saco or Maremont nowadays is worth about 50,000 on average, some higher, although a friend claims to have sold his for 70,000 recently. A year ago, a Kentucky Armory M60 sold for about 30,000. That's a reweld M60.

However, here's a catch. I'm not sure if Aaron M of Sturm is on this board, but he can testify to this. The reweld M60 market has been put into flux because about 8 months ago, a rewelded M60 Saco sold for approximately 60,000 on GB. The buyer probably did not know the M60 was a reweld, and the listing did not specifically say that it was a reweld. Upon emailing he seller, the seller said that he put up pics and that was his only obligation. I'm not sure if the deal actually closed.

So now bc of that sale, people with rewelded M60s think their rewelded gun with worth much more. I've seen private attempts to sell rewelded M60s at 50,000 a few months ago.

Of course, any item is worth what people will pay. But there have been very few M60s up for public sale, rewelded or not, so it's hard to know what they're really worth nowadays.

Side to side barrel movement in the trunnion is a big deal.

I bought an M60 a decade or so back and what showed up at my dealer also had some barrel movement in the trunnion, had a receiver that wasn't straight, and had a loose gas tube.  Thankfully I had a purchase and sale agreement that stipulated I could return the gun after an inspection period and I did so.  Ended up buying another one a few months later that was in great shape.

If you're stuck with the gun then console yourself with the idea that anything is fixable, given time and $$.

Joe

Thanks, guys. This right here is why I love this board. Lots of good info. The price information helps a lot.

Fortunately, I can get my money back no problem. It was not sold as described so either we will agree on a discount or I’ll send it back. I’ve bought a few machine guns from these guys and they are reputable and will make it right.

With just the receiver being a reweld, I knew I had the option to have Desert Ordnance replace everything and turn it into an E6 built around the trunion. Now that the trunion is questionable, I’m checking to see if Desert Ordnance can fix the play in the trunion and re-harden or whatever needs to be done so that it will be up to spec and last.

It’s a shame that folks try and pull a fast one. Generally gun people are good people, but I had to take one guy to court when he never sent me a can for a 50 and in another case, an “I fired safe queen” M16 arrived as the most beat up M16 I’ve seen. All my other transactions have been awesome and I’m friends now with a few of the sellers. Anyway...

As far as longevity of the trunion, is it the kind of thing where a reweld might last 80% as long or is it more like 20%?

With the play between the barrel and the trunion, it isn’t loose but it will move to the side slightly if I press on the side of the barrel with my thumbs. I take it that isn’t normal? Is that the kind of thing that’s not ideal but pretty common or something that you want to run from?

Thanks!

Thanks, Joe. I’ve read that folks will try and shim the trunion (very bad idea) but in this case it’s probably too tight to fit anything more than paper thin. How much play was in yours?

I don't remember how much play (it was a decade ago) but it was noticeable.  The M60 I ended up with is an RIA gun and there is no discernible movement when the barrel is fully inserted into the trunnion and locked into place.

I'm not an M60 expert - most of what I know was gleaned from the "M60 Civilian Owners Guide" published in Small Arms Review a decade or so back.  Definitely give that a read if you haven't already done so.  I think the article is posted on-line somewhere.

If I were you I'd keep looking for a good M60 rather than dealing with a welded up, serialized trunnion.

"Caveat Emptor."  There's a lot of misrepresented stuff out there.  When in doubt fly out and take a look first-hand.  A ticket is cheap relative to the cost of these guns.

Joe

Good point, Joe. Your advice and experience is much appreciated.

I agree with Tony and Joe, absolutely get a refund and return it to the seller.

My personal M60 (factory RIA / E4) which still has the original RIA trunnion and there is zero lateral play in the barrel to trunnion socket fit.

1/16" of an inch of movement laterally is a lot of play in my opinion.  The trunion is the heart of the gun on the M60 and if it is fucked and is the transferable part (i.e. has the serial on it) the gun will never be right.

I don't know what you paid but for a 30 to 60K firearm I wouldnt take a gun with serious structural defects that are almost impossible to repair.  The only reweld M60 I would personally consider is where the rewelded components are not the registered component(s) and could be replaced. (which it sounds like you thought you were buying)

I am sure you have a bunch of time and effort invested in this gun but its not worth keeping over any emotional attachment at this point.

If you have not already, one thing I recommend is reading up about M60s.  If you dont have them, get the SAR articles, all the US Mil TM manuals, the Kevin Dockerty book (which is on amazon) and read them all multiple times. If you need any resource material email me and I can send you copies/pdfs  of what I have.

I would personally drive/fly and personally inspect any M60 you are going to buy before plunking down payment as there seems to be a lot of folks misrepresenting guns now-a-days as there are tens of thousands of dollars to be made for being able to pass something off to an unsuspecting buyer who may have deep pockets but doesn't have deep knowledge of the platform and know what to look for.

JBNTEX, that’s super helpful and generous of you. Thank you.

I checked with M60Joe (I wanted to buy some other items from him anyway) but he’s off until after the summer. And he hasn’t fixed trunions. Unless Desert Ordnance can fix it and bring it up to spec, and I can get a discount from the seller, I’m sending it back. Very good advice here, thank you all.

To close the loop on this: The dealer and I agreed to send the gun to an M60 gunsmith to check out. After hearing what he says, we will go from there. Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

Not an MG owner but I am in a welding program. I will say that everyone who warned you about the welded part is correct. My teacher explained that 90% of parts break at the weld because of a variety of reasons. Reasons include slag inclusions and overbuilt welds and so on. For a gun that cost's as much as the M60 I think I would probably go ahead and get a full refund and try and find one in the condition you want.

But if you do decide to keep it, I personally would want to have it sent through an X-Ray to see if the weld has any hidden problems.